Trinity

[Yib2me]

You know if I were a Christian that would be the very first thing I would want to know about anyone is who are they are they the truth or are
they a lie.

Your churches is full of people who do not even know who they are they just assume that everyone is a child of God.

Now what is wrong with that picture?

I could walk into any church any church anywhere on this Earth and none of the people in it would be able 2 with certainty know the difference between the devil's in there and those of God.

 

[saginon]

Hello Saginon,
If that were so would I have created a thread where the subject could continue to be discussed?

You are correct, in your last statement, and when they become a nuisance to others, in their postings. They get dealt with accordingly. The warning to you is that you would be aware to thread carefully in how you make statements concerning Doctrinal beliefs that you may not agree with, so that you won't be dealt with as they are. Remaining to enjoy the fellowship, and opportunity to break bread and the ability to sharpen your iron with other brethren who will love you in spite of these doctrinal differences on Talk Jesus.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
<><

OK, so let me answer your comment...

Now, you question the Trinity with an untrue statement of "Trinitarians even admit it can't be explained or understood". Then enter your own conjecture about Jesus "big likely hood that Jesus was an angel". Do you not see the inconsistency of critiquing another's position at the same time you do the same?

Web site: Christianity.com
Page: The Doctrine of the Trinity.

While we cannot fully understand everything about the Trinity (or anything else), it is possible to answer questions like these and come to a solid grasp of what it means for God to be three in one.
Christianity.com Trinity

Read this completely incoherent and contradictory statement from that page at Christianity.com.

The fact that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons means, in other words, that the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Jesus is God, but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, but He is not the Son or the Father. They are different Persons, not three different ways of looking at God.

Web site: Christianity.com again
Page: God in Three Persons: A Doctrine We Barely Understand
Christianity.com Trinity
On that page - the Trinitarian condemnation of others -

All Christians believe the doctrine of the Trinity. If you do not believe this—that is, if you have come to a settled conclusion that the doctrine of the Trinity is not true—you are not a Christian at all. You are in fact a heretic.
I replied to that blog- I was nice - they deleted my reply. Every blog I've been on deletes my replies because they were debunked and it's easy to debunk the Trinity.

Same type of incoherent statement...
When we say these things we mean that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, but they are not three gods but only one God. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, the Spirit is not the Father, but each is God individually and yet they are together the one true God of the Bible.

So what they are saying is the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
Then comes the absurdity.
The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, the Spirit is not the Father.
_____________________________________________________________
Web site: BBC Religions.
Page: A difficult but fundamental concept within Christianity, the Trinity is the belief that God is three separate persons but is still a single God.
Trinity
____________________
Web site: CARM - Matt Slick
Page: What is the Trinity
Another important point about the Trinity is that it can be a difficult concept to grasp,...
Trinity
_________________________________________________
Web site: All about God.
Page: Trinity doctrine.
Trinity Doctrine - How Can We Comprehend It?
The most difficult thing about the Trinity Doctrine is that there is no way to adequately explain it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain.
Trinity
Did I question the Trinity with an untrue statement of "Trinitarians even admit it can't be explained or understood."

Or did I get that information right from Trinitarians?

 

[Christ4Ever]

OK, so let me answer your comment...


Web site: Christianity.com
Page: The Doctrine of the Trinity.

While we cannot fully understand everything about the Trinity (or anything else), it is possible to answer questions like these and come to a solid grasp of what it means for God to be three in one.
Christianity.com Trinity

Read this completely incoherent and contradictory statement from that page at Christianity.com.

The fact that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons means, in other words, that the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Jesus is God, but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, but He is not the Son or the Father. They are different Persons, not three different ways of looking at God.

Web site: Christianity.com again
Page: God in Three Persons: A Doctrine We Barely Understand
Christianity.com Trinity
On that page - the Trinitarian condemnation of others -

All Christians believe the doctrine of the Trinity. If you do not believe this—that is, if you have come to a settled conclusion that the doctrine of the Trinity is not true—you are not a Christian at all. You are in fact a heretic.
I replied to that blog- I was nice - they deleted my reply. Every blog I've been on deletes my replies because they were debunked and it's easy to debunk the Trinity.

Same type of incoherent statement...
When we say these things we mean that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, but they are not three gods but only one God. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, the Spirit is not the Father, but each is God individually and yet they are together the one true God of the Bible.

So what they are saying is the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
Then comes the absurdity.
The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, the Spirit is not the Father.
_____________________________________________________________
Web site: BBC Religions.
Page: A difficult but fundamental concept within Christianity, the Trinity is the belief that God is three separate persons but is still a single God.
Trinity
____________________
Web site: CARM - Matt Slick
Page: What is the Trinity
Another important point about the Trinity is that it can be a difficult concept to grasp,...
Trinity
_________________________________________________
Web site: All about God.
Page: Trinity doctrine.
Trinity Doctrine - How Can We Comprehend It?
The most difficult thing about the Trinity Doctrine is that there is no way to adequately explain it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain.
Trinity
Did I question the Trinity with an untrue statement of "Trinitarians even admit it can't be explained or understood."

Or did I get that information right from Trinitarians?

Hello Saginon,
I'm not here to justify every document/site article you can dredge up online to justify your comments. State your position clearly and concisely. Others hopefully will do the same. This was done as a Moderator, and not as a fellow Member seeking to open a discussion on the subject.

I was only offering guidance, which you are welcome to accept or not.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
<><

 

[Sue D.]

The word 'trinity' is Not found in Scripture HOWEVER -- the word "Godhead" is. The Godhead = God the Father, Jesus Christ his Son and the Holy Spirit.

And, yes it Is a difficult concept to understand much less try to explain. But it IS true. And it's not something from the RCC.

Gravity isn't especially understood -- but it certain is Real and we see the effects of it all the time. We can't 'see' oxygen, but without it we die -- we suffocate.

Why don't we stick to God's Word -- God is understood as existing. "In the beginning God.... created...."

Jesus Christ is the Son of God -- God incarnate. The Holy Spirit impregnated Mary so that Jesus Christ was 100% deity and 100% human. He came to die on the cross for our sins and rise again bodily the 3rd day. And the Holy Spirit comes to indwell a person at the moment of their salvation. So -- without the Godhead / trinity/ salvation is not possible.

 

[saginon]

Hello Saginon,
I'm not here to justify every document/site article you can dredge up online to justify your comments. State your position clearly and concisely. Others hopefully will do the same. This was done as a Moderator, and not as a fellow Member seeking to open a discussion on the subject.

I was only offering guidance, which you are welcome to accept or not.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
<><

All I'm doing is standing up for myself and what I said. It's NOT untrue that Trinitarians tell us the Trinity cannot be (I should have said FULLY) understood or explained.

 

[saginon]

The word 'trinity' is Not found in Scripture HOWEVER -- the word "Godhead" is. The Godhead = God the Father, Jesus Christ his Son and the Holy Spirit.

And, yes it Is a difficult concept to understand much less try to explain. But it IS true. And it's not something from the RCC.

Gravity isn't especially understood -- but it certain is Real and we see the effects of it all the time. We can't 'see' oxygen, but without it we die -- we suffocate.

Why don't we stick to God's Word -- God is understood as existing. "In the beginning God.... created...."

Jesus Christ is the Son of God -- God incarnate. The Holy Spirit impregnated Mary so that Jesus Christ was 100% deity and 100% human. He came to die on the cross for our sins and rise again bodily the 3rd day. And the Holy Spirit comes to indwell a person at the moment of their salvation. So -- without the Godhead / trinity/ salvation is not possible.

Can't admit the Trinity doctrine came from the Catholics? But first...
The word Godhead is a Trinitarian invention. That word is NOT in the original manuscripts. More on that later I suppose.
The word Trinity was first used by 2nd century by Tertullian but he didn't devise the doctrine.

During the first three centuries, Christians did not believe that Jesus Christ was coequal, and coeternal with God, or that he was God the Son, they believed that Jesus Christ was subordinate to God, because he said so, and that he had a beginning, the word begotten, and that he was born. Those that believed otherwise were the exception.

How it emerged...(I've posted parts of this before)

The council of Nicaea is where the Bishops of Rome made Jesus God. I'm not sure how many times they voted on the trinity prior to that but in the 325AD Nicaean vote the trinity doctrine finally passed by a very narrow margin of votes.

It wasn't until 451, at the Council of Chalcedon that, with the approval of the Pope, the Nicene/Constantinople Creed was set as authoritative. Debate on the matter was no longer tolerated; to speak out against the Trinity was now considered blasphemy, and such earned stiff sentences that ranged from mutilation to death. Christians now turned on Christians, maiming and slaughtering thousands because of a difference of opinion.

Arius and Athanasius
The state religion of Rome was in trouble. Constantine knew he had to do something to hold it all together. The problem was Christians were rioting over - yeo - the trinity. The Trinity doctrine developed from a power struggle between Arius and Athanasius.
Arius was non-trinitarian, and Athanasius developed Trinitarianism. It became more of a political argument than a theological or biblical one. Once Christianity became the state religion of the Roman empire, power within the church became political. Arius and Athanasius had significant followings and they both wanted power and the two groups fought savage battles with each other and were rioting against each other over it. Athanasius was more brutal, more powerful, and had a larger following. He was more emotional about his beliefs and literally destroyed his opponent Arius and his followers. Constantine knew he had to pick a side so he sided with Athanasius who had a stronger following. In other word...

The state religion of Rome was in trouble and Constantine realized that Christianity itself had to be united if it were to be the state religion. The issue of how to formulate a creed about the nature of Jesus became a political dispute, not a religious one. One side had to be chosen as right, and the other side must be silenced. He came down on the side of Athanasius for political reasons- adopted the trinitarian creed for the church, and exiled Arius. And so, Jesus ‘became’ God because of that.

"There are numerous accounts of Athanasius’ followers beating and murdering non-trinitarian Christians in the lead-up to the Council of Nicea, torturing their victims and parading their dead bodies around." (See Richard Hanson, The Search For The Christian Doctrine Of God: The Arian Controversy 318-381 (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1988) p. 386.)

The trinitarian Athanasius was by far the more brutal. "Bishop Athanasius, a future saint… had his opponents excommunicated and anathematized, beaten and intimidated, kidnapped, imprisoned, and exiled to distant provinces." (Richard Rubenstein, When Jesus Became God (London: Harcourt, 2000) p. 6.)

 

[newname]

If you are all of the same Spirit the Spirit of God then you all would agree with each other in Spirit and Truth.

This is an absolute
undeniable truth.

Therefore just by the fact that y'all cannot agree upon what is the truth is proof as some of you are children of the devil.

We all agree that your posts are annoying.

 

[newname]

Trinity is the most confusing doctrine in Christianity. Trinitarians even admit it can't be explained or understood. I'm not a JW but there's a very big likely hood that Jesus was an angel. Angels are called "sons of God."

Just think. There are probably trillions upon trillions of planets with people on them scattered throughout the universe, and trillions of them likely fell like ours. Using our earth as a model in a trinitarian framework, that means God had to become a man and suffer and die trillions of times. Hebrews just about says right out straight that Jesus was an angel! Angels are called 'sons of God???"

I was on a non christian forum once with a Jew who was first christian and an atheist friend and that atheist said I was a polytheist and I had 3 gods. I was totally confused and couldn't answer him. That's when I found Michael Brown who explains it from the Old Testament to Jews. He's terrific. He debates Jewish rabbi's on it and God uses him to get the Jews saved.
Jesus is the Angel of the Lord in the O.T., Who is not just an angel. His Name is in Him. He went in the fire from the offering of Simeon. Jacob wrestled with the Angel of the Lord. It's used interchangeably that they saw the Angel of the Lord, also Moses, in the bush. First the Angel is in the bush. Then God is in the bush. God just shows Himself to us like that.

biblestudying.net

According to Exodus 33:20, no one can see God or his face and live. Yet the Hebrew Bible preserves numerous instances of people ‘seeing God.’…Exodus 24:9-11 states that Moses and a select group of Israelites saw God, who did not strike them down. The Targum says that they saw the glory of God…Jacob, who wrestled with the angel of the LORD, said that he had seen God face to face (Gen. 32:30). The Targum changed this to, “I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face.” The exact same change is made in Judges 13:22. In Exodus 3:1-6, the angel of the Lord, equated with the Lord himself in the text, appeared to Moses in flaming fire in a bush, and Moses looked away because he was afraid to look at God. The Targum says that he was afraid to look near the glory of the LORD.” – Brown, Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus, Volume 2, Theological Objections, p. 29-30

A few comments...
I agree with most of the OP.

Do you know the leading cause of Atheism? CHRISTIANS! I can explain why later.

I disagree with this comment...

The Trinitarian concept that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man is confusing, incoherent, and inaccurate. To say Jesus is 100% God makes Jesus a fraud and the cross a hoax. Why do I say that? James 1:13 says...

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God, for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone."

That means that Jesus could not have been tempted and could not have sinned BECAUSE - HE'S 100% GOD! The trinitarian concept of Jesus being BOTH God and man at the same time is a perfect justification for trinitarians to cover up all of their irrational false teachings.

He became lower than the angels for a while. He was not perfect on earth. He became man. He is perfected through suffering and became like God, not through robbery, by giving in to the temptations of satan. The first born from the dead. If He was not God, He could never have done this and a man offering is forbidden. Abraham couldn't offer Isaac.
The O.T. says that God says: I am YHWH and besides Me there is no Saviour/ Messiah. That's one of the reasons a Jewish forefather from me got saved. He saw in the O.T. that the Messiah could not be just a man.
Man worship is idolatry. The Messiah is gonna reign over all the earth and He's worshipped. You may not worship other gods. You may not worship angels. Yet the Angel of the Lord was worshipped and called God and didn't stop em.
Malachi suddenly He will come to His temple, the Angel of the Lord.

Jesus said to the Samaritan woman at the well: We know Who we worship, cause salvation is from the Jews. Thus I reckoned: who will know better about God and Trinity than a christian Jew? That's how I found Michael Brown.

 

[KingJ]

I have never been convinced of a Trinity. Why? Too many to mention.

Are you a Christian? If so, why are you a Christian?

Jesus says in John 15:13 that the greatest act of love is to lay your life down for someone. So, you are a Christian who believes God got some unlucky fella to die for you? You '''love''' God when you believe He does not love you?

The devil loves to attack the cross. Dumb down what God did for us. The fact that you may potentially be doing his job does not alarm you?

I only ask this because every time I read an intelligent person make ridiculous and heretical claims, I wonder about what is motivating them.

I know a guy that knows his bible well. Preached soundly his whole life. Then went through hardships. Blamed God. He is now an atheist who relishes every opportunity to mock Christianity. He knows the full truth but will only teach half truths. Discussion with them is circular. They do not want to consider ''all'' scripture for clearly bias reasons.

 

[KingJ]

Jesus IS NOT equal to the Father, he said, "the Father is greater.

Jesus isn't all knowing, he said "only the Father knows the day and hour of his return."

He was first in that He was planned before the foundations of the earth Eph 1:4. God was not going to create mankind without Jesus. IE Without Him needing to be God the Son and go to the cross.

Jesus said "blasphemy against him will be forgiven but blasphemy against the holy spirit will not." If they were the same person, blasphemy against one would be blasphemy against the other. That alone destroyes the Trinity doctrine!

Blasphemy against Him is rejecting His message. His message is Jesus John 15:26. Rejecting Him is rejecting Jesus.

Nowhere in the bible is Jesus referred to or called "God the Son." That's a total Trinitarian invention.

BAC quoted these scriptures in post # 15. I gave you Isa 9:6 in my post # 2 which links the 'Son and Messiah' to 'almighty God'.

 

[KingJ]

You need to read the entire chapter, especially what Jesus said right AFTER the Pharisees said this...
"Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."

Then Jesus replied, now notice what he said...
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Addressed in post # 2

It was the perception of the Pharisees that Jesus was making himself equal to God because He was healing on the Sabbath. Jesus responds to that accusation by saying..."The Son can do nothing of himself" proving he is subject to and not equal to the Father.

Jesus's response to those criticizing Him for breaking the Sabbath was Luke 6:5 Then he added, “The Son of Man is master even of the Sabbath.

The Sabbath was a day for the Jews to honor God. Thank Him for helping them escape Egypt. If Jesus did not honor God with the Sabbath, it means...?

The Pharisees also accused Jesus of making himself out to be God in John 10:33-36. Notice what he said...

John 10:33-36 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God." Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods" '?

What is your point here?

Jesus goes on to say in John 10:37 & 38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

 

[saginon]

Are you a Christian? If so, why are you a Christian?

Why are you even questioning if I'm a Christian? The Trinity makes nobody a Christian. The man-made doctrine of the Trinity is counter-productive to Christianity. James said God cannot lie, sin, or be tempted...

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

God cannot sin because it would be inconsistent with His character and His nature. Correct? IF Jesus is fully God that makes the cross a hoax and Jesus a fraud. IF Jesus IS God, that means he could not have been tempted OR sinned anyway making his 'sinless sacrifice' a complete hoax and Jesus himself a fraud! Oh but the Trinitarian response is going to be, "that's because Jesus is 100% God and 100% man."

When people question ones faith in Christ even to the point of condemnation like many trinitarians do. It's illogical to accuse someone is not a Christian and even condemned because they reject the man-made doctrine Trinity - a doctrine they admit cannot be fully explained or understood.

Jesus says in John 15:13 that the greatest act of love is to lay your life down for someone. So, you are a Christian who believes God got some unlucky fella to die for you? You '''love''' God when you believe He does not love you?

God didn't lay His life down at the cross. He sent His son to the cross - big difference. God wanted a sinless sacrife and we got it in that unlucky fella who died for us.

The devil loves to attack the cross. Dumb down what God did for us. The fact that you may potentially be doing his job does not alarm you?

What God did was provide redemption through his 'firstborn' son as a propitiation of our sins. Rejecting the Trinity doesn't attack the cross, the Trinity DOES!...

Trinitarian's teach that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man AT THE SAME TIME? That is their response to every question they cannot overcome. It's the biggest excuse to cover-up major contradictions - which is to say, "That's because Jesus is 100% man, OR - that's because Jesus is 100% God." An example of that is if I quote Jesus where he says God is Greater and the only way they can dodge the coequality of Trinitarianism is to use the pretext that "that's because he's 100% man!"

I only ask this because every time I read an intelligent person make ridiculous and heretical claims, I wonder about what is motivating them.

The ridiculous heresy is the doctrine of Trinity that cannot be fully explained or understood, one that contradicts Jesus' own words that the Father is Greater. What motivates non-Trinitarians is - Trinitarians CONDEMN non-Trinitarians over a heretical doctrine devised by the Catholic's, a branch of Christianity many of trinitarian's also condemn! We want to believe what the bible teaches and what we perceive as truth, not a doctrine that originated over a political dispute over the state religion of Rome in the 3rd to 4th century. The Bishops of Rome voted on the Trinity doctrine several times over the course of about 100 years before securing it as DOCTRINE.

I know a guy that knows his bible well. Preached soundly his whole life. Then went through hardships. Blamed God. He is now an atheist who relishes every opportunity to mock Christianity. He knows the full truth but will only teach half truths. Discussion with them is circular. They do not want to consider ''all'' scripture for clearly bias reasons.

I know several people like that and many of them become Atheist for the same reason Trinitarian's condemn non-trinitarians....JUDGMENTALISM!

I don't think there's a doctrine that is more circular than a Trinity discussion.

 

[Br. Bear]

The word Godhead is a Trinitarian invention. That word is NOT in the original manuscripts. More on that later I suppose.

Colossians 2:9
πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος σωματικῶς

θεότητος (theotētos)
Strong's Greek 2320
1 Occurrence

 

[saginon]

He was first in that He was planned before the foundations of the earth Eph 1:4. God was not going to create mankind without Jesus. IE Without Him needing to be God the Son and go to the cross.
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"
In Ephesians 1:2 Paul says, "Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, AND from the Lord Jesus Christ."
God had no intentions to create mankind without Jesus. That doesn't prove anything about Trinity. You talk about heresy, no matter how much you try to shoehorn it into the Trinity doctrine, Jesus is NEVER called "God the son." But nice try, I bet it's not the last time.

Blasphemy against Him is rejecting His message. His message is Jesus John 15:26. Rejecting Him is rejecting Jesus.
John 15:26...

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
What's your point? Are you saying non-Trinitarians reject Jesus as Messiah and the message of the cross and resurrection? It seems that's the direction you're always heading in.
Have you noticed what Jesus said in verse 20 of John 15? Probably not because that verse debunks the co-equality part of Trinitarianism. The trinitarian cop out on that one is resorts to, "that's because Jesus was fully God AND fully man at the same time!"
V. 20 "Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord."

BAC quoted these scriptures in post # 15. I gave you Isa 9:6 in my post # 2 which links the 'Son and Messiah' to 'almighty God'.

The passage does NOT say almighty God. All you're doing is adding more falsity to this.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

If this verse is translated properly, then Trinitarian Christians have a real problem. The KJV and other translations - mistranslates Isaiah 9:6.
The word translated everlasting is actually 'age', and the correct translation is that Jesus will be called "father of the [coming] age."
In the OT and NT culture, even today! We use the word FATHER for anyone who began anythng. In the OT Jubal is called the Father of musical instruments, "the father of all who play the harp and flute." (Gen. 4:21)
Jimmie Brown is called the, "Godfather of Soul." John Mayall is called, "the Father of British blues." etc.

The point is that 'FATHER' was often used for the first one to do something or was important in some way. Since the Messiah will be the one to establish the age to come, raise the dead into it, and rule over it, he is called "the father" - of the coming age.

Isaiah is not saying that the Messiah is the same person as God the Father.

Mighty God.
Any man who is acting with God’s authority can, and is at times, called 'god'. In fact the interlinear words it like this, "the one counseling - El-Masterful - Father of Future - chief of well-being."

The word God is...
god, god-like one, mighty one
mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
angels
god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
God, the one true God, Jehovah
mighty things in nature
strength, power

 

[saginon]

Colossians 2:9
πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος σωματικῶς

θεότητος (theotētos)
Strong's Greek 2320
1 Occurrence

Actually, the word is used ONCE but, the trinitarian the slant imposed by the KJV translators use the word Godhead 3 times. Acts 17:29, Romans 1:20, and Colossians 2:9. The word IS a trinitarian invention. The interlinear uses the word 'deity' which is to say - divinity or divine nature like it is attributed to believers in 2 Peter 1:4...

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Colossians 2:9 is not talking about Christ being God, but about God in some way providing Christ with “fullness.” What this verse is saying is made clear in Colossians 1:9. “God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him.” - and John 3:34 "For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the spirit without limit."

 

[newname]

The "Angel" in the Pillar of Cloud
Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries. For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off. (Ex. 23:20-23)
And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night. (Ex. 13:21)
And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them. . . . And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians. (Ex. 14:19, 24)
And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat. (Lev. 16:2)
And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth. (Num. 12:5)
And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou LORD art among this people, that thou LORD art seen face to face, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night. (Num. 14:14)
Yet in this thing ye did not believe the LORD your God, Who went in the way before you, to search you out a place to pitch your tents in, in fire by night, to shew you by what way ye should go, and in a cloud by day. (Deut. 1:32, 33)
For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. (Isa. 63:8, 9) (The Hebrew word for "presence" is the same as the word translated "before" in some of the previous verses.)
And the LORD appeared in the tabernacle in a pillar of a cloud: and the pillar of the cloud stood over the door of the tabernacle. (Deut. 31:15)
Repeatedly, the Being in the cloud who led the Israelites in the wilderness is called the LORD, yet God makes it quite clear that the Being is His "Angel," and this "Angel" has His name. In other words, God is declaring that His "Angel" is named LORD or Yahweh too.

An "Angel" Named Yahweh

An Angel named Yahweh repeatedly appears in the Old Testament, claiming to be God. How can this be? Was this Angel not an angel at all, but rather Christ Himself?

www.pickle-publishing.com

 

[newname]

The Lord is seen face to face there. If you see God you die. They didn't.

 

[saginon]

Jesus Christ is the Son of God -- God incarnate. The Holy Spirit impregnated Mary so that Jesus Christ was 100% deity and 100% human. He came to die on the cross for our sins and rise again bodily the 3rd day. And the Holy Spirit comes to indwell a person at the moment of their salvation. So -- without the Godhead / trinity/ salvation is not possible.

That's what I dislike about Trinitarian's. They're judgmental. They teach that if a person claims to be a Christian but doesn't believe in a trinity, they are not saved. Is that true?

Trinitarians love to prop up the trinity doctrine by condemning others. The evidence in Scripture is that a person can be saved without even knowing about the Trinity. Most Trinitarians only know they believe in it but little knowledge of what the doctrine actually teaches. The most astounding and incoherent teaching is that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man AT THE SAME TIME. And the holy spirit is 100% God and 100% Jesus. God is 100% Jesus and 100% the holy Spirit. ETC.

The tenet of trinitarianism is one must believe in order to be saved when the Bible never says that believing Jesus is both 100% God and 100% man is necessary for salvation. It's all made up! Many Trinitarians admit that the Trinity is not revealed in the Old Testament, and now say that during the ministry of Jesus, and afterward, a person had to believe in the Trinity to be saved. There is no record that Jesus or his disciples ever taught the doctrine of the Trinity to anyone in order to get him or her saved.

There is not one single account of Jesus rebuking anyone who said he was a human Messiah. He rebuked the Pharisees for saying he was equal to God the Father! Never did he or anyone else allude to or ever say he was part of the Trinity, or that a person had to believe in the Trinity to be saved.

Mathew 9:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Answer - Read it - Chapter 19 in Mathew! Mark 10:21.

If the Trinity were a true, especially if a person has to believe it to be saved, it would be clearly outlined in scripture. Jesus would have said something about it in his teachings especially at the sermon on the Mount.

 

[B-A-C]

They teach that if a person claims to be a Christian but doesn't believe in a trinity, they are not saved. Is that true?

If I believe Jesus is God, and you believe Jesus isn't God. We obviously believe in two different Gods. One of us is putting his faith in the wrong god.

You might want to read this thread. Seriously, with an open heart.

Witnesses to Jesus

Witnesses to Jesus, The first witness... Jesus Himself. John 5:30; "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. John 5:31; "If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true...

www.talkjesus.com

In particular post #5. Where Jesus says ... "but I say these things so that you may be saved. ".

Also I would be interested to see you post two verses from your Bible on here.

Titus 2:13; and 2 Peter 1:1; can you tell me what they say?

 

[saginon]

If I believe Jesus is God, and you believe Jesus isn't God. We obviously believe in two different Gods. One of us is putting his faith in the wrong god. You might want to read this thread. Seriously, with an open heart.

I don't think you realize how old that saying is? Neither of us is putting faith in the wrong God. We believe in the same God. But if it makes you feel good about yourself to say we believe in two different Gods - go right ahead! One of us is not being truthful and it's not me. You might want to get real and knock that trinitarian chip off your shoulder.

In particular post #5. Where Jesus says ... "but I say these things so that you may be saved."

So here is post # 5 -
I made a mistake. You're the one who went off on the trinity. I just responded to your own derailment. If you would have said Jesus laid down his life for our sins it would have never gone in the direction it did. It's not true that God laid His life down for our sins. It is true that Jesus did.

NOT ONE verse says God laid down His life for our sins. Is that what you're getting at? Go ahead, quote a verse that say's such a thing!

Also I would be interested to see you post two verses from your Bible on here.
What is "on here?"
Titus 2:13; and 2 Peter 1:1; can you tell me what they say?

If you want to debate this then it's incumbent upon you to tell ME what they say to you!