Greetings Butch5,
I can see quite clearly what you have presented here although there are a couple of previous points made that I think should come under some investigation. But for now, as often is the case, we need to discover how what you submit can be understood complete when we likewise consider much of what fellow Member Admon Mikha'el
@Admon Mikha'el presented, namely the many references in Scripture to "my Spirit " and "his Spirit ".
I would also like to address the point regarding the example of identical twins having unique character and personality, which is true for all. However, that may need to be separately considered unless there can be understanding through addressing the 'question' already raised.
I do think it is important to attempt to see how we are to equally appreciate both 'God's Spirit' and 'our Spirit' , knowing that all Scripture is equally true.
Bless you ....><>
Hi Br. Bear,
Before considering both, my spirit and his spirit, I think we need to ask a few questions.
1. what is a spirit or breath? What exactly is that?
2. How many does a man have?
3. When was it put into man and where do we find this teaching in Scripture?
4. What is a man. Is he flesh or is he spirit?
I think there are others but these would be a good starting point. It's my contention that the spirit in man is the breath of life (lives) that comes from God. It's my contention that this spirit or breath of life (lives) is not human or man, but rather it something of God Himself. The word picture we're given is that of God breathing something out of Himself and into man. The Bible says God is spirit, or breath. If God is breath and He breathed something out of Himself into the man, it would seem that that which He breathed out is of God Himself.
I think one of the main questions we should ask is, what is a man? I believe this is foundational to the subject at hand. Our brother Admon Mika'el said this,
"We are all made up of three parts: spirit, soul and body. The spirit of man, also called the spirit of life or the
breath of life, is mentioned in the scriptures more than any other spirit. When Adam was created, he had the
spirit of life breathed into his body and he became a living soul (
Genesis 2:7); he became spirit, soul and a
breathing body; three parts all wrapped up in one package."
What I would disagree with here is that man became spirit soul and body. I would agree that man became a living soul, but not that he became spirit. The man was created from the dust of the earth according to Gen 2:7. Moses records that God created man from the dust of the earth. Then he says that God breathed into the man, the breath of life. That indicates to me that man was completed before the Breath of life was breathed into him. However, the indication is that he wasn't alive. As I see it, this breath of life is what gave man life. I don't see this as a part of man. It is a part of a Living soul and man did become a living soul. Gen 2:7 tells us that the man and the breath of life became a living soul. However, because the man was created prior to and existed before being given the breath of life I submit that the breath of life is not the man but that which gives him life. How I would differ from the above statement would be that the living soul is the totality of a being, the body (man) and the breath of life together form something new, the soul. I don't see three parts. I see the soul as the whole person or living person composed of two parts. As I posted earlier, one of the problems I have with the above statement is understanding how the man can become body, soul and spirit, if the totality of man is these three parts and the body is man, how can man, the totality, be a part of itself? That doesn't make sense to me. If man is body, soul, and spirit, and the body is man, it would seem to me that man would be, man, soul, and spirit. In that case, man would be man, (body, soul, and spirit), soul, and spirit. I don't see how that can work.
Another question I would ask is, how many spirits? If there is a spirit in man that is man, and the breath of life is in man, that would indicate two spirits in man. Then the addition of the Holy Spirit would make three. I'm not aware of anything in Scripture that indicates two or three spirits in man other than when people were possess by demons. When I see Scripture mention the spirit in man, it's singular, not plural. Also, even when believers receive the Holy Spirit, I don't see a reference to three spirits in them. Now, if the spirit in man, the breath of life, was something of God we would only expect to see one spirit. The Holy Spirit not being a separate spirit but rather another aspect of God's spirit or breath.
I think another question also needs to be addressed, that is, what is a spirit? I think many believe a spirit is a living being. I think that's based on the idea that angels and demons are referred to as spirits. Also, in English when someone thinks of a spirit it's usually a disembodied living being. Is that what a spirit is? Is that what these Greek and Hebrew words mean? I'm not one for dictionaries much, but I know some are. So, here is Kittle's definition of pneuma. Kittle's along with BDAG are probably the two preeminent Lexicons available.
A. pneúma in the Greek World.
I. The Meaning of the Term.
1. Wind. From a root denoting vital force acting as a stream of air, pneúma first means wind both in its movement and its rarefied materiality. The wind may be stormy, or a normal wind, or a breeze, or even a vapor. It has an effect on climate, health, and character, and is seen as both natural and divine.
2. Breath. A second sense of pneúma is breath, inhaled and exhaled in breathing, and ranging from snorting to the fading breath. Poetically pneúma denotes the sound that human breath produces by blowing on flutes etc.
3. Life. Breath is a sign of life, and by way of the idea of the breath of life, pneúma comes to be used for life or living creature.
4. Soul. As the principle of life, pneúma means much the same as psychḗ. Bound to the body in life, it escapes it with the last breath and returns to the ethereal sphere.
5. Transferred Sense of Spirit. In a transferred sense pneúma is used for the spirit that blows in interpersonal relations. Thus it may denote the spirit of a city, or the influence of the gods or other people, of various forms of excitement.
6. pneúma and noús. In contrast to noús (mind), which resembles the calmer medium of light, pneúma (spirit) is a dynamic term suggesting the forceful movement of air that seizes us with elemental power and catches us up into tension or movement.
7. Mantic pneúma. In manticism and mantic poetry, pneúma is the spirit that stirs, enthuses, fills, and inspires (cf. priests, poets, and prophets). It may also denote lofty rhetorical speech, the captivating flow of the orator, etc.
8. Divine pneúma. Elemental and uncontrollable, pneúma is felt to be divine (e.g., in divine music). But there is in Greek no sense of a personal holy spirit. The divine spirit is immanent.
9. God and pneúma. In Stoicism pneúma is a cosmic power or substance, and as such it may be seen as the being or manifestation of deity itself.
10. Non-Greek Development of Meaning. Under Jewish and Christian influence there is a twofold development of meaning. On one side pneúma is severed from nature and personified as the active cosmological or soteriological Spirit or God. On the other it is materialized as a demonic magical force that magicians manipulate for good or ill.
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament: Abridged in One Volume.
The first mention of "spirit" is 5 which is a transferred sense. It's used of things like School spirit or team spirit. That's obviously not a living being. It's not until number 10 that we see spirit used of the spirit of God. We see that the word took on this meaning from Jewish and Christian influence. However, what we see is the word pneuma, or spirit, is being personified and applied to the spirit of God. Nowhere in here do we see the definition of a disembodied living being. Even when it's applied to God's spirit, we have to first assume God's spirit is a separate person before we could conclude that this personification of God's spirit refers to a separate living being. So, there is nothing here that would indicate a spirit is a disembodied living being.
I think the first definition is a good one to describe God's breath or spirit. It's a vital force. Wind is a vital force. Think about what wind does. It moves ships, it generates electricity, It pollinates plants, it distributes seeds etc. But it is a force. There is no such thing as stagnant wind. Air not moving is not wind. Imagine if there was no wind. I believe wind is a good metaphor for God's breath or spirit. It's a metaphor, God's wind or breath isn't literally air. But it is a vital force.
So, if this is correct, what is man's spirit? If spirit is a vital force, what is this vital force that is man? Where did this vital force, that is man, come from. Remember, God said to Adam, you are dust. And, He said that man is flesh
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen. 3:19 KJV)
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. (Gen. 6:3 KJV)
That's my question. If man is spirit what is he? If He is spirit, a vital force, where did this come from. And, why then does God say he is flesh? It doesn't seem to make sense. I think this whole idea that man is spirit is based off of the English definition and the idea that a spirit is a disembodied living being. I believe that's the idea behind the concept that some part of man lives on after death. This really shows how the understanding of just one word can truly change how we see things. If this one word can change this much, how much more the overall scheme of things. Imagine if there was this much difference in 5 words.
What about God's spirit? Well, we're told that it is the breath of life. So, it is the vital force that gives life. Was Moses saying that God put a living being in man? Well, we didn't find that definition in Kittle. If that's the case one would have to ask, what's the point of the body and why did God say man is flesh rather than man lives in flesh. A popular idea in Christianity is that man lives in flesh. By God said he "is" flesh. Moses said that God created man from the dust of the earth. If man is flesh and is a spirit, then that spirit had to be formed from the dust of the earth. Can we find anything like that in Scripture? I'm not aware of anything in Scripture that speaks of spirit being formed from dust.
Another question I would ask is, are there multiple spirits or are there different aspects of one spirit? In other words, is the spirit of wisdom a different living being than the spirit of prophesy? Or, are these two aspects of God's spirit? If the Spirit of God is a third person, what about the Spirit of Christ? Is that another person or is it the same Spirit of God? If we understand these as living beings we begin to create this whole hierarchy of living beings that apparently are God. However, If these are all just different aspects or traits of God's spirit then there is only one that is used for different reasons. When the angel appeared to Mary he told her that the Holy Spirit would come upon her and the power of the Highest would overshadow her. (On a side note, notice it's the power of the highest. How can there be a highest among three coequals?) The angel equates the Holy Spirit with the power of the Highest. So, we have two concepts here.
1. The Spirit of God is a third person distinct from the Father and Son.
2. The Spirit of God God is the power of God. A manifestation of the Father in some sense.
If the Holy Sprit is a third person then He is the father of Jesus since it was the Holy Spirit that impregnated Mary. If the Holy Spirit is the power of God, a manifestation of the Father, then the Father is the father of Jesus.
Jesus said that people would see Him sitting on the right hand of the Power of God. If the Holy Spirit is a third person then Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Holy Spirit who is sitting on the throne. Where is the Father? If, however, the Holy Spirit is a manifestation of the Father then Jesus is sitting at the Father's right hand and the Father is on the throne.
If the Holy Spirit is a third person and man is a spirit then there are two living being inside of each believe. They are in effect sharing a body. Can we establish from Scripture that there are in fact two living beings in a believer? On the other hand, If the Holy Spirit is a manifestation of Father's power then we can understand that believers have been given another aspect of God's breath in addition to the breath of life. Believers have also been given the ability or power to live holy. We can look at it this way. God gave the spirit of wisdom to make people wise, so He gives the spirit of holiness to make them holy.
When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the blood of Jerusalem from her midst, by
the spirit of judgment and by
the spirit of burning, (Isa. 4:4 NKJ)
5 In that day the LORD of hosts will be For a crown of glory and a diadem of beauty To the remnant of His people,
6 For
a spirit of justice to him who sits in judgment, And for strength to those who turn back the battle at the gate.
(Isa. 28:5-6 NKJ)
Are these all different living beings coming from God or are these aspects of God's power? Remember, they're all ruach, the ruach of judgement, the ruach of burning, and the ruach of Justice. Here's another, Jesus gave John the Revelation and He said this,
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev. 2:1-7 KJV)
Jesus gave several warnings to the churches and he ended each saying, hear what the spirit says to the churches. Let's look at that. It's Jesus who is speaking. Yet, He says listen to what the Spirit says. So, who's speaking, Jesus, or the third person of the Trinity? Some might say, the Holy Spirit is speaking through Jesus or Jesus is speaking through the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity. That could be possible except there's a problem. He says listen to what the Spirit says. So, the authority of the message is coming from the third person of the Trinity. However, John started with this statement.
The Revelation of Jesus Christ,
which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: (Rev. 1:1 KJV)
So John says the message is from God. Nearly all of the reference of god that refer to the God Israel are references to the Father. There are a few about the Son. I'm not aware of any that call the Holy Spirit God. It's called the Spirit of God, but I'm not aware of any passage that calls the Holy Spirit God. So, if, as John says, God gave Jesus the message and Jesus says listen to what the Spirit says, what does that indicate? Does it not indicate that the Father is the Spirit? Unless one can prove conclusively that the Spirit is a third person, I don't see how we can draw any other conclusion than the Spirit is the Father. But we can go even further. During His ministry Jesus said the words He spoke were not His, but the Father's. If Jesus spoke the words of the Father and God gave Him the message in Revelation, I don't see how we can conclude anything other than the Father is the Spirit.
I could go on but this is getting really long. Just to address the personality issue. I think our uniqueness comes from our different physicality's and our different life experiences. We all look different. Some are taller, shorter, heavier, lighter, have different color skin, the list goes on. I don't see any reason to think our brains wouldn't all be different also. I wouldn't think every child who is born has an identical brain. That would lead to the uniqueness we see. Also, I believe that our experiences early in live can tend to form who we are. A child who is bitten by a dog may grow up to fear dogs or a child who falls in the tub may grow up to fear water. I think there are many different things that affect what our personality is like. Even identical twins aren't truly identical. I once lived with a set of Identical twins and I could tell them apart as easily as anyone else. I think they too, are subject to the same differences that make everyone else different..
