Trinity Passages Can you spot the trinity in each?
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Butch5
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I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the subject at hand. Whether I'm a Christian or not doesn't make my arguments any less valid.
Why did He need to be resurrected? Because He was dead. In order to live one can't be dead.
@Butch5 -- because a Christian is a Christ-follower and probably would not be questioning whether or not there is a Holy Spirit. The Godhead makes salvation possible. Being 'saved' is the same thing as being a Christian.
And His bodily resurrection on the 3rd day Proved that He was, indeed, the Son of God.
God is wanting relationship with us made possible Through the shed blood -- death, burial and bodily resurrection Of Jesus Christ. A 'good argument' about something doesn't bring a person closer To God and that would Probably be the goal -- being drawn closer To God in relationship to Him. An 'argument' being valid or less valid -- should that really Be the point?
And His bodily resurrection on the 3rd day Proved that He was, indeed, the Son of God.
God is wanting relationship with us made possible Through the shed blood -- death, burial and bodily resurrection Of Jesus Christ. A 'good argument' about something doesn't bring a person closer To God and that would Probably be the goal -- being drawn closer To God in relationship to Him. An 'argument' being valid or less valid -- should that really Be the point?
Butch5
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I didn't question whether or not there is a Holy Breath. What I questioned was a 5th century Catholic doctrine that says the Holy Breath is a third person in a Trinity. One would expect a Christ follower to follow Christ. Jesus said in His prayer to the Father, 'that they may know you, the only true God'. Jesus seems to think that the Father is the only true God. Paul said to the Corinthians, 'to us there is one God, the Father'. Paul seems to think there is one God and He is the Father. It seems that Both Jesus and Paul think the Father is the only God. If Jesus thinks there is only one God, the Father, shouldn't Christ followers think there is only one God, the Father. I think that. Doesn't that make me a Christ follower? If Jesus and Paul think there is one God and He is the Father, how is it that people think that the Holy Breath is a coequal, coeternal, being? I've already discussed the passage where Jesus said, speaking of the Helper, that He was speaking of the Father. If Jesus thinks the Helper is the Father, shouldn't a Christ follower think that the Helper is the Father? I think the Helper is the Father, doesn't that make me a Christ follower? Paul said, 'follow me as I follow Christ'. If Paul thinks there is one God, the Father, and I think there is one God, the Father, doesn't that make me a Christ follower?
Yeah, the argument should be the point. A valid argument shows that something is correct. If my argument is valid it's correct. If it's not valid it's likely incorrect. That's how we figure out whether or not we understand the Bible correctly.
@Butch5 -- first of all it's the Holy Spirit. No where in Scripture is the term Holy Breath used. Never. It's the Holy Spirit.
In book of Acts -- Jesus Christ told His disciples that He must ascend back up to heaven to sit at the right hand of God the Father, So that the Holy Spirit could come. That is the beginning of the Holy Spirit coming to indwell each believer at the moment Of their salvation and staying with the person until they are safe with Jesus Christ.
You brought up 'a 5th century Catholic doctrine that says the Holy Breath is a third person in a trinity'. The RCC has a lot of things wrong. If they insist on calling the Holy Spirit the Holy Breath. God's Word says 'Holy Spirit'. But they Do have the trinity right -- God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit.
You're referring to John 17 -- Jesus Christ is praying / talking to His Father in heaven.
The Holy Spirit is referred to as the Comforter, the Helper, the convictor of sins.
Well -- considering that Jesus Christ -- while here on earth Was God incarnate -- God is Spirit. So He was here with us on earth in the form of Jesus Christ a Jewish man.
So - yes, Jesus Christ Would talk to God as His Father. Who else Would He be. But there is Also the Holy Spirit -- the third person OF.
Why is the God head triune in nature -- simply because they Are.
And, when people are baptized -- they are baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
You said "if I think the Helper is the Father, doesn't that make me a Christ - follower?" So That is your basis for being a Christian? In That premise you're wrong. Because your IF is not correct. You're free to believe anything you want to. But if that belief is Wrong, then it needs adjusting. The Holy Spirit is the Helper and is sent by the Father. Look at John 15:26 and Luke 16:7, 13, 14. Take a moment to read those passages. Thank you.
In book of Acts -- Jesus Christ told His disciples that He must ascend back up to heaven to sit at the right hand of God the Father, So that the Holy Spirit could come. That is the beginning of the Holy Spirit coming to indwell each believer at the moment Of their salvation and staying with the person until they are safe with Jesus Christ.
You brought up 'a 5th century Catholic doctrine that says the Holy Breath is a third person in a trinity'. The RCC has a lot of things wrong. If they insist on calling the Holy Spirit the Holy Breath. God's Word says 'Holy Spirit'. But they Do have the trinity right -- God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit.
You're referring to John 17 -- Jesus Christ is praying / talking to His Father in heaven.
The Holy Spirit is referred to as the Comforter, the Helper, the convictor of sins.
Well -- considering that Jesus Christ -- while here on earth Was God incarnate -- God is Spirit. So He was here with us on earth in the form of Jesus Christ a Jewish man.
So - yes, Jesus Christ Would talk to God as His Father. Who else Would He be. But there is Also the Holy Spirit -- the third person OF.
Why is the God head triune in nature -- simply because they Are.
And, when people are baptized -- they are baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
You said "if I think the Helper is the Father, doesn't that make me a Christ - follower?" So That is your basis for being a Christian? In That premise you're wrong. Because your IF is not correct. You're free to believe anything you want to. But if that belief is Wrong, then it needs adjusting. The Holy Spirit is the Helper and is sent by the Father. Look at John 15:26 and Luke 16:7, 13, 14. Take a moment to read those passages. Thank you.
Admon Mikha'el
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You question whether or not the Holy Spirit is God, or a papt of the trinity....If you knew ANY Word you would KNOW that the Holy Spirit is God and a part of the trinity.....God Himself has spoken it.
Matthew 12:18
Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
Acts 2:17
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Acts 2:18
And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
So.....Are you a Christian? Are you a believer?
Butch5
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Actually Sue, It's the Holy Ruach. Spirit is an English word. Ruach means wind or breath. The 5th Century doctrine is a Catholic doctrine that says there is one God, in persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, Breath. Three coequal, coeternal, persons. You insist that it's a Biblical doctrine, yet it's found nowhere in Scripture and it isn't found in Church history until the 5th century. Call me crazy but it seems to me that a doctrine originating in the 5th century would be a 5th century doctrine.
You say you believe in the Trinity, but your words imply Modalism. Modalism is a doctrine that says there is one being called God who manifests Himself in three forms, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, Breath at different times. You said this,
"Well -- considering that Jesus Christ -- while here on earth Was God incarnate -- God is Spirit. So He was here with us on earth in the form of Jesus Christ a Jewish man."
You said God was in the form of Jesus Christ. That's Modalism, not Trinitarianism. You also said this,
"Why is the God head triune in nature -- simply because they Are."
That's just like saying, "Because I said so". It doesn't really prove anything other than what your opinion is. "Simply because they are" isn't a reason. I gave you proof from the mouth of Jesus Himself. But, as you said, you're free to believe whatever you want. If you choose to believe some 5th century Christians over the words of Jesus Himself that is your prerogative.
Butch5
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I don't think you're following too closely. How is it that you think I am questioning whether or not the Holy Spirt, Breath, is God, when I've stated plainly that I think the Holy Spirit, Breath, is the Father or a manifestation of the Father? I think most Christians agree that the Helper is the Holy Spirit, Breath. As I've pointed out, Jesus said to the disciples when speaking of the Helper, that He was speaking figuratively of the Father. Thus the Helper is the Father. If the Helper is the Father then He God.
But, let's look at these passages you posted. The Trinity doctrine is, God consists of three, coequal, coeternal persons. If that's that case, then the Father and the Holy Spirit, Breath, are equal. Neither one is above the other. If that's that case, then why does the Father use words that indicate ownership of the Holy Spirit, Breath. He says, "My Spirit". When we use the word my it indicates that something belongs to us, or at least is in our possession. How does the Father own someone who is equal to Him? If one is owned by another the one owned is inferior in position to the one owning. Yet, this doctrine says there are three coequals. So even these passages that you posted don't agree with this idea of three coequal persons.
But, we also have Jesus' words again. Jesus said, 'the Father is greater than I'. How can there be three coequals when one states plainly that another is greater than He and that one that is greater owns the other one? There's nothing coequal here. We clearly see that one is above the others.
Admon Mikha'el
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Butch STOP trying to figure things out intellectually. Things of the spirit can only be understood in the spirit....A finite mind will never understand spirit things. You can't even understand infinity....Explains something as simple as time Our minds are far too simple for that. Good grief! I have dementia and even I can understand that.....Intellect or spirit!
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Butch5
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I always chuckle when people say that. The only way to figure anything out is intellectually. If you believe in the Trinity doctrine, someone figured that out intellectually. It's not written in the Bible. If I don't figure things out intellectually then I leave myself open to folly. You see, it's when we reject reason that we are lead astray. When we reject reason then we can easily accept false teaching. It doesn't have to make sense. It doesn't have to be logical. Yeah, that's how people are lead astray into false teaching. There was a time when I bought into that. And, yes, I was taught false doctrine. It's when we reject reason that we accept the ideas of men and reject what the Scriptures plainly state.
Let me ask you an honest question. How does one believe a doctrine, not found in Scripture, but not believe what is plainly stated in Scripture?
Admon Mikha'el
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Sir I will agree that somebody named it the 'trinity', but its ALL THROUGH THE BIBLE unless you're spritually blind. YOU are a triune being....the differenct being, all three parts are packaged neatly in one piece of skin....God is a three part being with no such limitations.....That IS all through the bible...
@Butch5 -- take time to Google the word "ruach" and read for yourself -- just as I've been doing. It can mean 'spirit, breath or wind'. -- You've chosen to camp on one possible useage of that Hebrew word. There are Lots of good articles a person can read / learn from.
God's Word teaches a few things that I don't understand, but I accept that as the truth, because God's Word Is truth.
God's Word is living, alive, and pierces into our souls -- the Holy Spirit does the convicting. As we read His Word the Holy Spirit does His work in our hearts.
That which I Do know is that the trinity / Godhead is evident throughout His Word.
So I would ask -- have you ever accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior. It's more than an intellectual curiosity or topic for discussion -- it's a heart's acknowledgement / acceptance. And confession unto salvation. And then the Holy Spirit will come to indwell and give a peacefulness that you've never experienced before. At least that's what happened with me.
God's Word teaches a few things that I don't understand, but I accept that as the truth, because God's Word Is truth.
God's Word is living, alive, and pierces into our souls -- the Holy Spirit does the convicting. As we read His Word the Holy Spirit does His work in our hearts.
That which I Do know is that the trinity / Godhead is evident throughout His Word.
So I would ask -- have you ever accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior. It's more than an intellectual curiosity or topic for discussion -- it's a heart's acknowledgement / acceptance. And confession unto salvation. And then the Holy Spirit will come to indwell and give a peacefulness that you've never experienced before. At least that's what happened with me.
Butch5
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Really, where? How am I a three part being? Moses said man was created from the dust of the ground. People say the Trinity is in the Bible, but they never show me where. Showing me a passage of Scripture that speaks of, the Father, Son, and Holy Breath, doesn't prove that God is a being that consists of three parts. All it shows me is that there is a Father, a Son, and a Holy Breath.
On the other hand what is actually in Scripture is that there is one God, the Father. That the Father is the only Ture God. That God calls the Holy Spirit, Breath, "My Spirit". Jesus said the Helper is the Father. Paul said, 'to us there is one God the Father. Paul calls the Father, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. So Jesus has a God. If He is one of the three coequal persons how does He have a God? The doctrine says that there are three coequal persons in the Trinity. As I pointed out, Jesus said, 'the Father is greater than I'. So according to Jesus they aren't equal. What about Paul? Did Paul think they were equal?
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (Phil. 2:5-8 NAS)
It appears Paul didn't think they were equal because He said Jesus didn't think they were equal.
You said God is three parts. Even this doesn't fit the Trinity doctrine. God consists of three parts? Let's look at that. To start we have God. That's one. Then we have God the Father, that's two. Then we have God the Son, that's three. Then we have God the Holy Spirit, Breath, That's four. So, even this description doesn't fit with the idea of a Trinity.
This is a doctrine that cannot be explained because it is a contradiction. There were some Christians in the 5th century who didn't really have a good grasp of the Scripture who came up with this idea. It's not in the Bible. If it was this thread would be full of passages stating it.
I have presented a large amount of evidence to show that the Holy Breath is the Father. Several of you have simply said I'm wrong. No one has shown any of the evidence wrong. I've presented several conundrums for the three in one God idea. You mentioned understanding. There is one thing that I don't understand. I don't understand how, in light of all of this evidence, one can simply ignore it and cling to a doctrine that is not even found in Scripture. I often wonder what is so special about this doctrine that people absolutely refuse to question it?
Butch5
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Sue, I've already addressed ruach and spirit. It is a figure of speech. I didn't read it on Google. I've traced ruach, neshemah, and pneuma through the Scriptures to see how the words are used in Scripture. All a dictionary tells me is what the author thinks a word means. They are subject to their biases just like every other human on the planet. Just look at the word aion in a dictionary and they'll tell you that it mean eternal and unending. Jesus said that aion ends. So, who's right, the plethora of lexicons that say it means eternal or Jesus who said it ends?
@Butch5 -- you are determined that you are correct -- you've done your tracing and that's all that matters to you. So be it.
Seems that you don't like the various meanings of various words you come upon. That which the author says it means. That dictionaries are even biased according to what their author thinks. Well -- so it it.
Seems that you don't like the various meanings of various words you come upon. That which the author says it means. That dictionaries are even biased according to what their author thinks. Well -- so it it.
Admon Mikha'el
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Butch You are spirit, you have a soul, and you live in a body.....God is Father Son and Holy Spirit....Both are triune beings......There.....
But my daddy always sais "You cannot win an argument with an ignorant man. (One who refuses to learn) So I'm done speaking with you.
Butch5
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No, I'm not a spirit. God said man is flesh, not spirit. That is Platonism. However, I agree with your statement about one who refuses to learn. I've given you example after example after example of how the Three in one idea doesn't fit Scripture. I've given you plain statements from both Jesus and Paul, yet, you've ignored it all and held to your claim without a shred of evidence. I'd say that is one who refuses to learn.
Admon Mikha'el
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You've thrown junk logic and not Word. Here some logic...like yours....God made man in His own image, man is flesh, ergo God is flesh.
These bodies we wear are nothing but carriers for our spirit and soul, which we are....We are a spirit, we have a soul and we walk around in a flesh body....These flesh bodies will NOT be in heaven but we'll have a different type of body...but yes...we will look like we look now. We will be 'solid'
Butch5
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Actually, it's sound logic. That's why it's irritating you. If it was junk someone would easily be able to point out the error. I've given you the word, time and time again.
God man in His image, not His substance.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen. 3:17-19 KJV)
Dust you "are", not a spirit you are living in dust.
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. (Gen. 6:3 KJV)
There it is, right from God, man is flesh. But, I don't expect it'll change minds.
Admon Mikha'el
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We are all made up of three parts: spirit, soul and body. The spirit of man, also called the spirit of life or the
breath of life, is mentioned in the scriptures more than any other spirit. When Adam was created, he had the
spirit of life breathed into his body and he became a living soul (Genesis 2:7); he became spirit, soul and a
breathing body; three parts all wrapped up in one package. God gives breath and spirit to all the people on
the earth (Isaiah 42:5). Without the spirit of man, our bodies are lifeless (James 2:26). The spirit of man is
what drives our emotions, attitudes and reactions, causing us to do the sensible or silly things we do, and
feel the way we feel, both positive and negative. It makes us courageous or timid, willing or unwilling, a
leader or a follower. The spirit of man is our life and our breath. It is our being, our existence, our personality
and our character. It makes us who we are. It makes us, us. Identical twins are unique in that they are
identical copies of each other, but they have individual personalities and characters because they each have
an individual spirit of man formed within them from conception. The Lord forms the spirit of man within us
(Zechariah 12:1). The spirit of life leaves a child that is stillborn (Job 3:11). That shows us that the spirit of life
was already in the child before it was born; it was formed there at the moment of conception.
The spirit of man, or the spirit of life comes from God and enters the unborn baby in the womb of the
pregnant woman (Ecclesiastes 11:5) and returns to God on our death (Ecclesiastes 12:7). It is the spirit that
gives us life and is owned by God (1 Corinthians 6:20). The Lord is God of the spirits of all flesh (Numbers
27:16). Just before Jesus died, He committed His spirit to God (Luke 23:46). When Jesus died, He gave up
the spirit of life (John 19:30). When Stephen died, Jesus received his spirit (Acts 7:59). Jesus was put to
death in His human body, but He was made alive in the spirit. That left Jesus free to preach to people who
had died and whose spirits were in Hades, the waiting place of the dead that is also called a prison (1 Peter
3:18 & 19) so they could live for God in the spirit (1 Peter 4:6).
The spirit of life gives us health and makes us live (Isaiah 38:16).
God’s anger can make our spirit faint with terror (Isaiah 57:16; Ezekiel 21:7).
Our spirit rejoices in God (Luke 1:47) and Jesus rejoiced in God (Luke 10:21).
The most unusual of God’s recorded creations are the four living creatures mentioned in Ezekiel and
Revelation. Their spirit of life is in their wheels (Ezekiel 1:20 & 21).
Hunger and thirst can make the spirit faint (Psalm 107:5). Food and water can revive the spirit (Judges
15:19; 1 Samuel 30:12).
We do not have the power over our own spirit to retain the breath of life neither do we have the power over
the day of our death (Ecclesiastes 8:8).
Our spirit is alive because of the righteousness of Jesus living in us (Romans 8:10).
The Spirit of God testifies with our own spirit that we are the children of God (Romans 8:16).
When a person has been raised from the dead through prayer, their spirit returns from death (Luke 8:55).
It is our spirit that is saved from hell, or hades (1 Corinthians 5:5), which is the waiting place of the dead as
they wait for Judgement Day (Revelation 20:12 & 13).
It is the spirit that is tormented in hades. The dead person feels pain, heat, anguish, thirst, discomfort; they
can talk, reason and pray; they can still love their families and be concerned for them (Luke 16:23 to 31).
We have to control, rule and restrain our own spirit (Proverbs 16:32; 25:28) and it is the spirit within us that
constrains us (Job 32:18).
Only a person’s own spirit understands their own thoughts (1 Corinthians 2:11).
The spoken Word of God, written down for us in the scriptures are spirit and life (John 6:63).
When we pray in tongues, our spirit prays by the Holy Spirit within us (1 Corinthians 14:14) and the Holy
Spirit knows what to pray (Romans 8:26).
The spirit of a man sustains us in sickness and pain (Proverbs 18:14).
All of these verses show us our life comes from the spirit that God forms within us.
Even Jesus had the spirit of man or the spirit of life, and the following group of scriptures show us that we
feel emotion in our spirit, not in our soul as most people think and it is our emotions that react. Jesus
discerned in His spirit, or could sense that the scribes were questioning Him in their hearts (Mark 2:8).
