Trinity Passages Can you spot the trinity in each?
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Butch5
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The short answer is, because the translators think it's a third person. Without getting technical, Greek pronouns generally follow their noun in gender. The word spirit is neuter in gender, therefore the pronoun should be neutral in gender. The neuter gender pronoun would be "It". When the Scripture speaks of the spirit it should say it, not he. He is the masculine gender. It doesn't match the neuter gender of spirit. The exception is when Jesus called the Spirit, the helper. The Greek word translated helper is in the masculine gender. So, in that case the pronoun would be he, even if the noun is not a person. We have another example of this.
Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man. (Prov. 8:1-4 KJV)
Here we see that wisdom, the Greek word Sophia, is speaking. Notice wisdom is a she. The Greek word Sophia is in the feminine gender. Therefore the pronoun is she. We know wisdom isn't really a woman. However, because the word is feminine the gender of the pronoun is feminine.
But, since the Spirit is a manifestation of the Father I guess one could call it he, even if it's grammatically wrong. The problem is that people don't really see what it is because of the "he" pronoun instead of using "it" which would be grammatically correct.
In case you're in question about what I'm saying, here is a link to a Greek English Interlinear Bible. Scroll down to verse 13 and compare the literal translation below the Greek text with the English on the side. You'll see that the actual translation uses the word "it" and not "he". However, for a readable English translation the translators have used "he" instead of "it"
Greetings Butch5,
thank you for these bits.
I notice in verse seven, the Comforter addressed as He or Him.
Often the Comforter, The Helper, was called the Paraclete. We don't often hear that word now days.
All also could be 'translated' as the Caller, or the Calling and/or the Consoler, [as in, to call {someone}. If we recall, the Church are the Called Out Ones, the Set Apart.
Consoler would appear to be linked with Counsellor? Here we are also reminded of passages/verses referring to consolation as well as comfort [as well, of course to calling] . Also, the Intercessor, and Who intercedes for us?
from Strong's Concordance:
paraklétos: called to one's aid
Original Word: παράκλητος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: paraklétos
Phonetic Spelling: (par-ak'-lay-tos)
Definition: called to one's aid
Usage: (a) an advocate, intercessor, (b) a consoler, comforter, helper, (c) Paraclete.
HELPS Word-studies
3875 paráklētos (from 3844 /pará, "from close-beside" and 2564 /kaléō, "make a call") – properly, a legal advocate who makes the right judgment-call because close enough to the situation. 3875 /paráklētos ("advocate, advisor-helper") is the regular term in NT times of an attorney (lawyer) – i.e. someone giving evidence that stands up in court.
from: Strong's Greek: 3875. παράκλητος (paraklétos) -- called to one's aid
But now I go my way to Him that sent Me; and none of you asketh Me, Whither goest Thou? But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you. And when He is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they believe not on Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father, and ye see Me no more; of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come.
He shall glorify me: for He shall receive of Mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are Mine: therefore said I, that He shall take of Mine, and shall shew it unto you.
A little while, and ye shall not see Me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see Me, because I go to the Father.
John 16:5-16
May also pop in this:
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Galatians 4:6
Bless you ....><>
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Romans 5:5
thank you for these bits.
I notice in verse seven, the Comforter addressed as He or Him.
Often the Comforter, The Helper, was called the Paraclete. We don't often hear that word now days.
All also could be 'translated' as the Caller, or the Calling and/or the Consoler, [as in, to call {someone}. If we recall, the Church are the Called Out Ones, the Set Apart.
Consoler would appear to be linked with Counsellor? Here we are also reminded of passages/verses referring to consolation as well as comfort [as well, of course to calling] . Also, the Intercessor, and Who intercedes for us?
from Strong's Concordance:
paraklétos: called to one's aid
Original Word: παράκλητος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: paraklétos
Phonetic Spelling: (par-ak'-lay-tos)
Definition: called to one's aid
Usage: (a) an advocate, intercessor, (b) a consoler, comforter, helper, (c) Paraclete.
HELPS Word-studies
3875 paráklētos (from 3844 /pará, "from close-beside" and 2564 /kaléō, "make a call") – properly, a legal advocate who makes the right judgment-call because close enough to the situation. 3875 /paráklētos ("advocate, advisor-helper") is the regular term in NT times of an attorney (lawyer) – i.e. someone giving evidence that stands up in court.
from: Strong's Greek: 3875. παράκλητος (paraklétos) -- called to one's aid
But now I go my way to Him that sent Me; and none of you asketh Me, Whither goest Thou? But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you. And when He is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they believe not on Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father, and ye see Me no more; of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come.
He shall glorify me: for He shall receive of Mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are Mine: therefore said I, that He shall take of Mine, and shall shew it unto you.
A little while, and ye shall not see Me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see Me, because I go to the Father.
John 16:5-16
May also pop in this:
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Galatians 4:6
Bless you ....><>
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Romans 5:5
Does this passage remind us of any others? And to Who or about Who?
“Yet hear now, O Jacob My servant,
And Israel whom I have chosen.
Thus says the Lord who made you
And formed you from the womb, who will help you:
‘Fear not, O Jacob My servant;
And you, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen.
For I will pour water on him who is thirsty,
And floods on the dry ground;
I will pour My Spirit on your descendants,
And My blessing on your offspring;
They will spring up among the grass
Like willows by the watercourses.’
One will say, ‘I am the Lord’s’;
Another will call himself by the name of Jacob;
Another will write with his hand, ‘The Lord’s,’
And name himself by the name of Israel.
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
And who can proclaim as I do?
Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me,
Since I appointed the ancient people.
And the things that are coming and shall come,
Let them show these to them.
Do not fear, nor be afraid;
Have I not told you from that time, and declared it?
You are My witnesses.
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.’ ”
Isaiah 44:1-8
Bless you all ....><>
“Yet hear now, O Jacob My servant,
And Israel whom I have chosen.
Thus says the Lord who made you
And formed you from the womb, who will help you:
‘Fear not, O Jacob My servant;
And you, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen.
For I will pour water on him who is thirsty,
And floods on the dry ground;
I will pour My Spirit on your descendants,
And My blessing on your offspring;
They will spring up among the grass
Like willows by the watercourses.’
One will say, ‘I am the Lord’s’;
Another will call himself by the name of Jacob;
Another will write with his hand, ‘The Lord’s,’
And name himself by the name of Israel.
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
And who can proclaim as I do?
Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me,
Since I appointed the ancient people.
And the things that are coming and shall come,
Let them show these to them.
Do not fear, nor be afraid;
Have I not told you from that time, and declared it?
You are My witnesses.
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.’ ”
Isaiah 44:1-8
Bless you all ....><>
Butch5
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Hi Br. Bear,
You're welcome! Yes, the term paraclete was used quite a bit in the early church. Tertullian used it a lot. The Greek word for paraclete is also a masculine noun, so it too, would have a masculine pronoun. The point is that the masculine pronoun doesn't necessarily indicate a person as we saw with the word wisdom, sophia, which is feminine but not a woman. Actually, the word paraclete is a transliteration of the Greek word parakletos.
When we start talking about the Hebrew words, neshamah, and ruach, and the Greek words, noe, and pneuma, we've got to really look at them closely. The base meaning of these words is wind or breath. They are sometimes translated spirit. The problem comes in when we import the English definition of spirit, a disembodied being, into these words. They simply mean wind or breath. When they are translated spirit it is a figure of speech. For instance, angels and demons are called spirits or winds (breaths). However, this is a metaphor. An Angel is not blowing air. But, it has traits similar to blowing air. The wind blows where it wills and you don't know where it comes from or where it goes. However you can see the effects of it. It's the same with angels, they come and go where they will, we don't see them, however, we do see the effects of them when they interact in the physical world. I've taken to reading these words as wind or breath where they appear. If wind or breath doesn't seem to fit then I know it's probably a figure of speech.
I think the whole issue is pretty much sealed up with Jesus statement that He was speaking figuratively of the Father when He spoke of the Helper, the Spirit of Truth.
Butch5
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This is an interesting passage. It appears that there are two here in verse 6, God the King of Israel, and His Redeemer the Lord of Hosts.
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. (Isa. 44:6 KJV)
So, I looked at the Greek Old testament and it's worded a little differently.
Thus saith God the King of Israel, and the God of hosts that delivered him; I am the first, and I am hereafter: beside me there is no God. (Isa. 44:6 LXA)
It's actually saying that God is the King of Israel and the God of hosts who delivered Israel.
Greetings Butch5,
perhaps also we are somewhat 'directed' in our thinking about this and other Scriptural things pertaining to the LORD, according to how we [that is, the western folk of today] look at everything.
This has always been reflected in language. Or, language is a reflection of the way people think, it is an extension of their thinking. By this we mean the language as a whole. But, of course, we have many languages and even in English, we have different people groups who all think or 'compute' things a bit differently.
One of the great difficulties we can come across, for example, is the communication online like here at TalkJesus. A person may write without any ill intent whatsoever, but it can read like there is. Care does need to be taken and Who better to ask to lead us than our Lord?
So, what can be done in 'translating', is overlook the way in which different peoples looked at the world and of course, how they spoke/thought/understood the LORD. We can see this in both Hebrew and Greek... so a literal translation often is not enough. It is when we can allow the Spirit to help us to put the all together, we can see a 'more precise' meaning or understanding.
In regards to Hebrew, we go way back and the amount of words was perhaps quite limited especially compared to the 20 000 words the average English speaker has stored in their 'brains', today. At the same time, they knew what they meant, probably much clearer than we, today!
I imagine that you already know all that, and more, but i thought it worth writing, anyway.
One might now ask, how does that all relate to what is being said in this thread?
I won't say more but may i end this little note by recalling the time that i was converted. For the sake of simplicity, i will put it like this,
the moment i was converted, i knew. I have spent the last however long it is trying to find words to express that Who i now know and things about Him.
it is written that they/we shall be known by their fruits.... i suppose words can support our fruit/the fruit... and...
is the fruit fit for the King's Table?
Bless you ....><>
perhaps also we are somewhat 'directed' in our thinking about this and other Scriptural things pertaining to the LORD, according to how we [that is, the western folk of today] look at everything.
This has always been reflected in language. Or, language is a reflection of the way people think, it is an extension of their thinking. By this we mean the language as a whole. But, of course, we have many languages and even in English, we have different people groups who all think or 'compute' things a bit differently.
One of the great difficulties we can come across, for example, is the communication online like here at TalkJesus. A person may write without any ill intent whatsoever, but it can read like there is. Care does need to be taken and Who better to ask to lead us than our Lord?
So, what can be done in 'translating', is overlook the way in which different peoples looked at the world and of course, how they spoke/thought/understood the LORD. We can see this in both Hebrew and Greek... so a literal translation often is not enough. It is when we can allow the Spirit to help us to put the all together, we can see a 'more precise' meaning or understanding.
In regards to Hebrew, we go way back and the amount of words was perhaps quite limited especially compared to the 20 000 words the average English speaker has stored in their 'brains', today. At the same time, they knew what they meant, probably much clearer than we, today!
I imagine that you already know all that, and more, but i thought it worth writing, anyway.
One might now ask, how does that all relate to what is being said in this thread?
I won't say more but may i end this little note by recalling the time that i was converted. For the sake of simplicity, i will put it like this,
the moment i was converted, i knew. I have spent the last however long it is trying to find words to express that Who i now know and things about Him.
it is written that they/we shall be known by their fruits.... i suppose words can support our fruit/the fruit... and...
is the fruit fit for the King's Table?
Bless you ....><>
yes, and also,
He is the first I AM and the last I AM? [but the I AM is the same I AM ]
I am the first, and I am the last;
Bless you ....><>
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' God was in Christ,
reconciling the world unto Himself ... ,'
(2Corinthians 5:19a)
Hello @Butch5,
I cannot put myself into this category, or any category regarding this subject I'm afraid.
God's desire is that we should know Him, and the language He uses to describe Himself and His work is an act of condescension, in order to make what is infinite comprehensible to our finite minds. We are asked to believe what He says, and to trust Him, to worship Him and give Him thanks, even though our understanding will never be perfect.
I believe God is spirit, and that He is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Hello @Admon Mikhae'el,
The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Butch5
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Thanks Chris! I'm just trying to see how you're approaching the subject.
Butch5
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Hi Br. Bear,
I totally agree. The language issue is one I push often. We think as Westerners and not as Easterners as the Jews. As Westerners we've been subject to western thinking which is the way the Greeks thought. We know what Paul had to say about Greek thinking. It wasn't good. Trying to change the way we think is difficult. That's one reason I believe tracing word usage through the Bible is important. We can see how a word was used in Genesis and we can see how it was used thousands of years later in Revelation. It can help us to get into the thinking of people in different ages.
I really think that the Lord does help us if we really are searching for the truth. Short story, many years ago before I became a Christian I prayed and asked God to help me understand the Bible. It was years later but, that prayer was answered.
Butch5
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Hi Sue,
Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name (John 20:30-31 KJV)
I beleive Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.
Butch5
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He did a lot of things. What specifically are you referring to?
Admon Mikha'el
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LOL And there is the answer to 'Who is Jesus' real father?" Right? We never want to substitute faulty logic for Word do we? I'm so glad you go by the Word, Complete.
Butch5
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Sure. That's pretty obvious isn't it? Jesus, the Son of the Living God
