Trinity Passages Can you spot the trinity in each?

[B-A-C]

Is the spirit a person?

The Holy Spirit is always called "He", The Holy Spirit is never called "It" in any of the 18 Bibles I have.

John 14:26; "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
John 1:32; John testified saying, "I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him.
John 14:17; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
John 15:26; "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
John 16:13; "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

The Holy Spirit has feelings. A person's will does not have feelings, the person themself has feelings.

Heb 10:29; How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Eph 4:30; Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

The Holy Spirit is a "who" not a "what".

 

[Butch5]

Specifically the Holy Spirit.. by name.
Rom 5:5; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
Rom 9:1; I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,
Rom 14:17; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
Rom 15:13; Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Rom 15:16; to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, so that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
1Cor 6:19; Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
1Cor 12:3; Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
2Cor 6:6; in purity, in knowledge, in patience, in kindness, in the Holy Spirit, in genuine love,
2Cor 13:14; The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
Eph 1:13; In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 4:30; Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
1Thes 1:5; for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.
1Thes 1:6; You also became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit,
1Thes 4:8; So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.
2Tim 1:14; Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.
Tit 3:5; He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Heb 2:4; God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.
Heb 3:7; Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 9:8; The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing,
Heb 10:15; And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,

The Holy Spirit by another name.
Rom 1:4; who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,
Rom 8:2; For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
Rom 8:9; However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
Rom 8:11; But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Rom 8:14; For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
1Cor 2:11; For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
1Cor 2:12; Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
1Cor 2:14; But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
1Cor 3:16; Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1Cor 6:11; Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
1Cor 7:40; But in my opinion she is happier if she remains as she is; and I think that I also have the Spirit of God.
1Cor 12:3; Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
2Cor 3:3; being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
2Cor 3:17; Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Cor 4:13; But having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, "I BELIEVED, THEREFORE I SPOKE," we also believe, therefore we also speak,
Gal 4:6; Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
Eph 1:13; In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 4:30; Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Php 1:19; for I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayers and the provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
Php 3:3; for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,
Heb 10:29; How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Hi B-A-C,

I'm not sure what your point is here.

 

[B-A-C]

I'm not sure what your point is here.

You said Paul never mentioned the Holy Spirit, all these verses were written by Paul.

 

[Butch5]

The Holy Spirit is always called "He", The Holy Spirit is never called "It" in any of the 18 Bibles I have.

John 14:26; "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
John 1:32; John testified saying, "I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him.
John 14:17; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
John 15:26; "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
John 16:13; "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

It is in English because the translators believe the Spirit is a third person. Most, if not all, translation boards require that a translator hold the Trinity doctrine in order to work on their boards.

If you look at the Greek text, the only place it is referred to as He is in John 14 where Jesus speaks of the Comforter. The reason the pronoun He is used here is because the Greek grammar requires that the pronoun match the noun in gender. The Greek word translated Comforter is a masculine word
thus the pronoun must also be masculine, thus the use of the pronoun He.

 

[Butch5]

You said Paul never mentioned the Holy Spirit, all these verses were written by Paul.

No, what I said was he never mentioned the Spirit in the opening of his letters. When he offers grace and peace to the Church it's always from the Father and Son. He never says Grace and peace from the Holy Spirit

 

[B-A-C]

No, what I said was he never mentioned the Spirit in the opening of his letters. When he offers grace and peace to the Church it's always from the Father and Son. He never says Grace and peace from the Holy Spirit

The Father and Son are in Heaven, the Holy Spirit is with us now.
I wouldn't write a letter to you from me, my son and my brother, and introduce it from my brother, if my brother was living with you.

John 16:7; "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
John 7:39; But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Rom 8:9; However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
Rom 8:11; But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
1Cor 3:16; Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
2Tim 1:14; Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.

 

[Butch5]

The Father and Son are in Heaven, the Holy Spirit is with us now.
I wouldn't write a letter to you from me, my son and my brother, and introduce it from my brother, if my brother was living with you.

John 16:7; "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
John 7:39; But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Rom 8:9; However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
Rom 8:11; But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
1Cor 3:16; Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
2Tim 1:14; Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.

But God isn't writing the letter, Paul is. He offers grace and peace from the Father and Son, but not the Spirit. I find that rather odd if he believed the Spirit is a third person

 

[B-A-C]

But God isn't writing the letter, Paul is. He offers grace and peace from the Father and Son, but not the Spirit. I find that rather odd if he believed the Spirit is a third person

Paul is writing the letter on behalf of the Father and the Son. To the church (the people) who have the Spirit with them (in them).
You can find it "odd" if you like, but Paul calls the Spirit a "who" and a "whom".

 

[complete]

... 'Concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord,
which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
And declared to be the Son of God with power,
according to the spirit of holiness,
by the resurrection from the dead: ... '
(Romans 1:-3-4)

Hello B-A-C,

In regard to what you say concerning Romans 1:4 (above) and the term, 'the spirit of holiness,' as referring to the Holy Spirit by another name, I do not believe it does, because it is spirit without a capital letter. The resurrection of the dead marked off the Lord Jesus Christ as the Son of God with power. 'The spirit of holiness' is contrasted with, ' the flesh' in this verse, it is what Christ is in resurrection, the spirit of holiness, a quickening spirit (1 Corinthians 15:45; 1 Corinthians 3:17; 1 Peter 3:18; 1 Timothy 3:16).

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

Paul is writing the letter on behalf of the Father and the Son. To the church (the people) who have the Spirit with them (in them).
You can find it "odd" if you like, but Paul calls the Spirit a "who" and a "whom".

I don't know that the claim, he is writing on behalf of the Father and Son, can be supported by Scripture.

Regarding "who and whom", again, if we go to the Greek text that's not what we find

 

[B-A-C]

ὁ, ἡ, τό
ho hē to
ho, hay, to
The masculine, feminine (second) and neuter (third) forms, in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom): - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.

There is an order to the choice of the inflection used. "He" and "she" come before "it".
Now you could argue the Holy Spirit is feminine (that has been tried here on TalkJesus also).. but even if that was true, it would still be a person.
The inflection has to make sense in the context of the sentence used.

Eph 4:30; Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

We are back to a personality, an impersonal force cannot be grieved, but a person can. He or she can, but "it" can't.

 

[B-A-C]

the term, 'the spirit of holiness,' as referring to the Holy Spirit by another name, I do not believe it does, because it is spirit without a capital letter.

Agreed, I am willing to concede that one.

 

[DieAmartyr]

Ok. For clarification I'd like to ask a question. When you referred to the Spirit you used the pronoun "it". Yet, you also called the Spirit an entity.

Is the spirit a person?

Also, you quoted John 14:26 and said that the Comforter was the Holy Spirit. If we read that discourse of Jesus to the end in John 16 Jesus makes a statement to clarify what Hes been alluding to. He says he had been speaking to them figuratively of the Father, but the time was coming that he would tell them plainly. In escense Jesus said that Comforter is the Father.

“I have said these things to you in figures of speech. The hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figures of speech but will tell you plainly about the Father.

But the Comforter, who is the Holy Ghost whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:26

The Father is sending The Holy Ghost.

And Jesus, being full of the Holy Ghost, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,Luke 4:1

Why doesn't it say Jesus was full of The Father? I said " it" because spirits aren't men and women are they? I have always thought of ghosts as " it", but then I said "He" because that is what impregnated Mary right? I have heard tv evangelists say The Holy Spirit is a person..and I do not know why they would go on tv and say that...wouldn't He be called the " Holy Person"?

The Bible gives me mixed clues about what The Holy Spirit is because sometimes it just says Spirit, sometimes it just says God, I know the Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit, but that could be referring to The Father or The Son so I dont know.

 

[Butch5]

ὁ, ἡ, τό
ho hē to
ho, hay, to
The masculine, feminine (second) and neuter (third) forms, in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom): - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.

There is an order to the choice of the inflection used. "He" and "she" come before "it".
Now you could argue the Holy Spirit is feminine (that has been tried here on TalkJesus also).. but even if that was true, it would still be a person.
The inflection has to make sense in the context of the sentence used.

Eph 4:30; Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

We are back to a personality, an impersonal force cannot be grieved, but a person can. He or she can, but "it" can't.

Hi B-A-C,

There's not a choice. The pronoun must match the gender of the noun. That's why wisdom is referred to as she. The Greek word sophia is feminine, thus the pronoun must also be feminine. We know that wisdom is not a person. But according to the language it is referred to as she. The word spirit or pnuena is neuter in gender, thus the correct pronoun must also be neuter, which would be it.

In this passage you quoted it should read, 'by which you you were sealed

 

[Butch5]

Here's some more food for thought. Jesus said,

"All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. (Matt. 11:27 NKJ)

He said no one knows the Son except the Father and no one know the Father except the Son. How is it that the Holy Spirit, if a third person doesn't know the Father nor the Son?

 

[only son]

I honestly appreciate the dedication, commitment, and immense time and diligent work that was put forth by so many here, laying down many, many scriptures and the study analysis. This is such a huge effort to truly present your doctrine of the Trinity.

I do not want to take anything away or downplay the work that you have placed forth.

For myself - I personally do not believe that the TRINITY has anything to do with God nor believe that the Trinity is found in the scriptures.

The main question that I seem to have difficulty having answered by Trnitarians

If Trinitarians could explain concerning their translation,

how or why Yahoshua would have to LOWER Himself and take on the role or morph or form of a MAN and LOWER HIMSELF to become - a servant of God –

IF THAT was what or who he already was and always will be ?

In all honesty - - THE ONLY QUESTION I HAVE FOR TRINITARIANS - IS SIMPLY THIS.

If Yahashua was always “ AT “ the right HAND of God, where did he exist before he was located / or placed to be there and where will he exist after his purpose this completed

IF - The Bible says He is to sit / dwell - “ IN “ the right or “ AT “ the right hand of God - UNTIL - UNTIL such and such a time. = Dwell here - UNTIL - this time comes.

or

If he was to be there ‘ until ‘ such a such and such a time, this means he was not always there.

And after such and such a time passes - where will he again return regarding his original place ?

I honestly just do not see how Trinitarians can answer this question and I have never received an answer from anyone who holds to the Trinity faith.

If Yahoshua was always “ AT “ the right HAND of God, - where did he exist before he was located / or placed to be there and where will he exist after his purpose this completed

IF - the Bible says - He is to sit / there - UNTIL - UNTIL such and such a time. = Dwell here - UNTIL - this time comes, where will he go ? ? ? ?

We see that - In John Chapter 8: - The bible clearly explains exactly who Yahoshua is …

Yahoshua says three things here about his identity.

i COME OUT FROM THE GOD -
i COME NOT ALSO FROM - OF MYSELF -
i COME NEITHER MYSELF I - SENT -

John 8:42
i COME OUT FROM THE GOD -
i COME NOT ALSO FROM - OF MYSELF -
i COME NEITHER MYSELF I - SENT -

- εγω I AM - γαρ FOR - εκ FROM - του THE - θεου GOD - εξηλθον CAME OUT -

και ALSO - ηκω COME - ουδε NOT - γαρ FOR - απ OF - εμαυτου MYSELF - εληλυθα I COME -

αλλ NEITHER - εκεινος MYSELF - με I - απεστειλεν SENT.


But truly the Trinity is completely in contradiction to me - BECAUSE - Yahoshua defines the terms in His message - by saying that He does nothing of His own self - saying that I can do nothing whatsoever of my own doing. - I do not have any power of miracles, of my own " I do not have a will of my own - I CANNOT DO anything, whatsoever - OF MY OWN ... Saying that it is the father only, that does the miracles and the works.

Clearly, here he was not a distinct separated part of God, nor of a trinity in a partnership as a second PERSON of a triune CO EQUAL = CO ETERNAL GODHEAD.

Nor - can I find a separate identity or separate person " separated nor an individual as two or three different different PERSONs - from the father

Even " His will was not " CO EQUAL " nor the same as " in the same WILL as God's will.

He has no power, no control, no miracles, no knowledge and there is no good, no honor, and no GOOD REPUTATION in Him. - as a distinct, separate individual CO EQUAL or CO ETERNAL SEPERATED DEITY OR PERSON.

Saying - why do you call me " good " ? -- " There is NO ONE good but God alone " - -

Every time He spoke of his own will, power, majesty and desire and purpose " We find that He denied the trinity doctrine- Yet at the same time, he and the scriptures declare that He was God Himself - He was from heaven, and He PRE EXISTED / ORIGINATED - in the bosom of the father and EXITED from { out from } the bosom of the father to sit in the RIGHT of God until God's enemies are a footstool..

- - Yahoshua says three things here about his identity.

i COME OUT FROM THE GOD -

i COME NOT ALSO FROM - OFF OF / OUT OF MYSELF -

i COME NEITHER MYSELF I - SENT -

Meaning - Yahoshua was not a mere “ departing exiting FORM “ nor MORPH * of his OWN pre - existence. - -

Nor even a departed FORM or MORPH of his own self " himself. " as a separate pre-existing person.

He came out of God's spirit and returns back to God's spirit to sit IN the throne of GOD..... - because this is his spirit – The Holy Spirit - the only mediator.

The Word Made Flesh that will return back to sit in the throne of the Father and of the Lamb.

Can you see that God is not three seperate individual CO EQUAL - CO ETERNAL PERSONS - the three manifestations are one God = The Holy Spirit, a Father / Creator - manifesting Himself as the word spoken into existence as a SON made flesh.

So basically I have two questions that I ask of Trinitarians.


1.

THE ONLY QUESTIONS I HAVE FOR TRINITARIANS - IS SIMPLY THIS.

If Yahashua was always “ AT “ the right HAND of God, where did he exist before he was located / or placed to be there and where will he exist after his purpose this completed

IF - The Bible says He is to sit / dwell - “ IN “ the right or “ AT “ the right hand of God - UNTIL - UNTIL such and such a time. = Dwell here - UNTIL - this time comes.

or

If he was to be there ‘ until ‘ such a such and such a time, this means he was not always there.

And after such and such a time passes - where will he again return regarding his original place ?

I honestly just do not see how Trinitarians can answer this question and I have never received an answer from anyone who holds to the Trinity faith.

If Yahoshua was always “ AT “ the right HAND of God, - where did he exist before he was located / or placed to be there and where will he exist after his purpose this completed

IF - the Bible says - He is to sit / there - UNTIL - UNTIL such and such a time. = Dwell here - UNTIL - this time comes, where will he go ? ? ? ?


and 2. - the second question....

If Trinitarians could explain concerning their translation,

how or why Yahoshua would have to LOWER Himself and take on the role or morph or form of a MAN and LOWER HIMSELF to become - a servant of God –

IF THAT was what or who he already was and always will be ?

I believe that Trinitarians are incapable of answering these two questions because their Trinity Doctrine is formulated and developed by altering and changing and manipulating and literally perverting the translation.

This is my honest faith. Please answer these 2 questions if you would like - or just admit humbly that your translation removes these answers. And i will completely understand.

Respect and consideration to all - thank you.

 

[only son]

Please allow me to explain a little more about what I was trying to say,

NOTICE WHAT TRINITARIANS ARE LITERALLY SAYING

Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

When we get to verse :30 - Trinitarians are attempting to lay the claim that before Jesus Christ was born - THE GODHEAD and TRINITY was an established and well known part of the Old Testament understanding of God

But in the OT - there is no mentioning of God in the terminology of - the NUMBER THREE - concerning the three manifestations of God.

This is a lie.

- there is no mention how that " THE THREE ARE ONE "

and there is no mentioning that all of the fullness of the DIVINITY OF GOD literally dwelling in a man conceived and born by God's very spirit.

This is untrue.

in him dwelleth all the fullness of the DIVINITY.

THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT GOD HAD WINKED AT AND IGNORED , THOSE DISOBEDIENT WERE IGNORING THE TRINITY AND CONCEPT OF THE GODHEAD.

THIS IS A COMPLETE UNTRUTH …………… none of this is ever even mentioned in the Old Testament.
There is no concept of a GOD HEAD or a TRINITY - where a man / human is on earth in the OT - who is claiming to be the Father manifested / morphed into flesh expecting worship and praise and recognition - as God on earth.

God did manifest “ as a man “ to Joshua, Gideon and Moses and Abraham - but none of these prophets and priests and men of God had never mentioned the manifestation of Gods Human nature on earth - as something to be worshiped or even recognized and worshiped - nor as the fullness of the Divinity of God in a man - expressly as a Trinity or Godhead.

By changing the bible - it is saying is that - God is claiming that he had allowed his O.T. Prophets, Priests and servants and children to ignore and disregard and reject the teaching that - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit existed in three persons in one GODHEAD.

And that in the O.T. God simply winked and turned a blind eye and permitted or ignored his servants to ignore the Trinity Doctrine and the GODHEAD.

DOES NOT THIS SEEM - completely absurd.

Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

In other words - The GODHEAD and the TRINITY has always been there, always something that everyone in the Old Testament clearly knew about - but now suddenly mankind must REPENT for ignoring the GODHEAD - reality - that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit existed in three persons in one GODHEAD.

This not only proves beyond any doubt that St. Paul was not attempting to preach the Trinity and the GODHEAD to these Greek Pagans. THIS PROVES - that Paul was NOT NOT THE DOCTRINE OF THE GODHEAD AND TRINITY.

Just by reading the literal passage - we prove that “ The word Godhead “ is a made up fraud and bogus word that was inserted into the Translations.


This is exactly why the OLD LATIN VULGATE - the Catholic Bible Translation from the 5 th Century uses the word DIVINITY and not GODHEAD in - Act 17:29 /

Trinitarians invented the word “Godhead” about 1200 years after Jesus Christ was born

The GODHEAD LITERALLY MEANS - The Trinity, in Christian doctrine of Jesus Christ as - the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead.

And yet THE TRANSLATION HAS Paul trying to teach the Greek pagans the Trinity and Godhead

and we all have a Translation where Paul is trying to convince the Greek Pagans that God has always PREVIOUSLY expected all mankind to worship God as a Trinity and as a Godhead and now SUDDENLY God is demanding that mankind expected to SUDDENLY repent for rejecting the GODHEAD Doctrine ? ?

But there is no Godhead anywhere in the Old Testament - yet the ONLY - ONLY Trinitarian rationale and purpose and cause for inserting the word Godhead into the Translation was to insert the Trinity doctrine.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

If you want to know exactly what the meaning of the GODHEAD means to Trinitarians and why they invented the word Godhead
Here are two links that show exactly why they inserted the GODHEAD into the translation.

Definition of GODHEAD
& https://www.christiancourier.com/articl ... nd-trinity

Yet Paul is preaching to Pagans in Greece who know absolutely nothing about anything concerning Paul’s faith - and these Pagans - they even think or believe that Paul is a Pagan just like them - and Paul jumps right into the Doctrine of the Godhead and the Trinity.

Then Paul tells them - - That the GODHEAD and the TRINITY has always been something that everyone in the Old Testament PREVIOUSY clearly knew about - but God winked and turned a blind eye to those rejecting the Godhead Doctrine - now suddenly mankind must REPENT - repent now for ignoring the GODHEAD ALL THIS TIME - - that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit existed in three persons in one GODHEAD.

In other words the Old Testament Prophets and Priests and Hebrew men and women were expected to accept the Trinity and Jesus Christ is another Person in a Trinity with a Godhead - as a CO EQUAL - CO ETERNAL divine separate person of God.

 

[Andyindauk]

Hi Only,

For me, if as Christians we believe in the God that's described in the Bible, we have three options with regards to the Trinity. 1) We accept that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are three sides of the one true God. 2) Christianity isn't monotheistic, we serve three separate Gods or 3) Jesus and the Holy Spirit are somewhat lesser beings than God. Denyers of the Trinity can tell you who Jesus and the Holy Spirit aren't but not who they are.

To answer your question, 'If Yahashua was always “ AT “ the right HAND of God, where did he exist before he was located / or placed to be there and where will he exist after his purpose this completed?'

God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same, they are the three faces of God. Jesus explained this to Philip-

Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. John 14:8‭-‬11 NKJV

So when you ask, 'where did He exist before he was located...' you're overlooking the fact that God-Jesus-Holy Spirit is omnipresent, there is no where or location for Him, He is everywhere.

God took on the form of Jesus and the Holy Spirit to make several appearances in the Old Testament, here's a couple of them-

“Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.” Daniel 3:25 NKJV

Then the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard this news, and his anger was greatly aroused. I Samuel 11:6 NKJV

This concept of the Trinity was not widely accepted theology at the time of Jesus and still isn't with traditional Jews today. You mention a few others - God did manifest “ as a man “ to Joshua, Gideon and Moses and Abraham - but none of these prophets and priests and men of God had never mentioned the manifestation of Gods Human nature on earth - as something to be worshiped or even recognized and worshiped - nor as the fullness of the Divinity of God in a man - expressly as a Trinity or Godhead

The one to Abraham is of note -

Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High. And he blessed him and said: “Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth; And blessed be God Most High, Who has delivered your enemies into your hand.” And he gave him a tithe of all. Genesis 14:18‭-‬20 NKJV

If Abram partakes of bread and wine and gives a tenth of his wealth, is that not worship? So yes, Jesus is worshiped in this Old Testament messianic appearance. Still on the subject of Melchizedek-

The Lord has sworn And will not relent, “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.” The Lord is at Your right hand; He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath. Psalms 110:4‭-‬5 NKJV

God was telling David, and by inference me, 'The Lord is at your right hand.' Paul explains in more detail -

Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? I Corinthians 6:19 NKJV and in previous verse,-

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! I Corinthians 6:15 NKJV

So for me the Trinity is so much more than a theological concept, it's part of who I am. God and Jesus is in me, inside of me in the form of the Holy Spirit.

Hope that clarifies.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Only,

For me, if as Christians we believe in the God that's described in the Bible, we have three options with regards to the Trinity. 1) We accept that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are three sides of the one true God. 2) Christianity isn't monotheistic, we serve three separate Gods or 3) Jesus and the Holy Spirit are somewhat lesser beings than God. Denyers of the Trinity can tell you who Jesus and the Holy Spirit aren't but not who they are.

To answer your question, 'If Yahashua was always “ AT “ the right HAND of God, where did he exist before he was located / or placed to be there and where will he exist after his purpose this completed?'

God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same, they are the three faces of God. Jesus explained this to Philip-

Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. John 14:8‭-‬11 NKJV

So when you ask, 'where did He exist before he was located...' you're overlooking the fact that God-Jesus-Holy Spirit is omnipresent, there is no where or location for Him, He is everywhere.

God took on the form of Jesus and the Holy Spirit to make several appearances in the Old Testament, here's a couple of them-

“Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.” Daniel 3:25 NKJV

Then the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard this news, and his anger was greatly aroused. I Samuel 11:6 NKJV

This concept of the Trinity was not widely accepted theology at the time of Jesus and still isn't with traditional Jews today. You mention a few others - God did manifest “ as a man “ to Joshua, Gideon and Moses and Abraham - but none of these prophets and priests and men of God had never mentioned the manifestation of Gods Human nature on earth - as something to be worshiped or even recognized and worshiped - nor as the fullness of the Divinity of God in a man - expressly as a Trinity or Godhead

The one to Abraham is of note -

Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High. And he blessed him and said: “Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth; And blessed be God Most High, Who has delivered your enemies into your hand.” And he gave him a tithe of all. Genesis 14:18‭-‬20 NKJV

If Abram partakes of bread and wine and gives a tenth of his wealth, is that not worship? So yes, Jesus is worshiped in this Old Testament messianic appearance. Still on the subject of Melchizedek-

The Lord has sworn And will not relent, “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.” The Lord is at Your right hand; He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath. Psalms 110:4‭-‬5 NKJV

God was telling David, and by inference me, 'The Lord is at your right hand.' Paul explains in more detail -

Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? I Corinthians 6:19 NKJV and in previous verse,-

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! I Corinthians 6:15 NKJV

So for me the Trinity is so much more than a theological concept, it's part of who I am. God and Jesus is in me, inside of me in the form of the Holy Spirit.

Hope that clarifies.

Hi Andy,

What you've examined here would be more akin to Modalism than Trinitarianism. Modalism is the idea that there is one God who manifests Himself as three different persons. Trinitarianism is the idea that there are three separate persons that are one God.

 

[complete]

Hello @only son, @Andyindauk, @Butch5,

Reading your responses, I am made so aware that we are treading on holy ground here. How intrusive our own understanding can be upon revealed truth. I can empathise with the words of David in Psalm 139:6:-

'Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
it is high, I cannot attain unto it.'

I choose to lay my flawed intellect in the dust, and worship God, Who alone knows all things.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris