Trinity Passages Can you spot the trinity in each?

[Butch5]

Hello there,

Forgive me for coming back yet again, but am I right in saying that the roles of Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all performed by The One Living Almighty God?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

Are you saying that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are roles of God? If so, that idea is called Modalism. It was rejected early on by the Church.

 

[Butch5]

@Dave L. @Butch5, @Brother Paul, @DieAmartyr, @Andyindauk, @Christ4Ever, @Admon Mikha'el, @Br. Bear, @Rockerduck, @Sue D.

Hello there,

I have just read through the thread once more, and have enjoyed reading the exchanges between each one. Thank you Dave L for introducing the subject, and to you all for the thought provoking points raised along the way.

* There are two passages of Scripture which I would like to share, which my mind has been drawn to recently, and which has application to this subject, I believe. The first is John 14:26:-

'But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost,
whom the Father will send in My name,
He shall teach you all things,
and bring all things to your remembrance,
whatsoever I have said unto you.'

* The words, 'The Comforter', is followed by the word, 'which', because it is referring to the work that He would do, whereas the words, 'the Holy Ghost, is followed by the word, 'Whom', for it is referring to the being of the Holy Ghost, which the Father would send in Jesus name. Then the word, 'He' personifies Him, as did the word, 'Whom'. He is not just an extention of God the Father, He is also not just power from on high, as some say. He is the Holy Spirit who is sent from God the Father.

'Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.'
(1Co 12:4)

* The other passage of Scripture which came to mind was, 1 Corinthians 15:27-28:-

' For He (God the Father) hath put all things under His feet .(God the Son)
But when He saith all things are put under Him,
it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under Him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto Him,
then shall the Son also Himself be subject
unto Him that put all things under Him,
that God may be all in all.'

* The role of the Son is a means to an end in the purposes of God, as is the role of the Holy Spirit. The end being that 'God may be all in all'. Praise God!

* I feel that God is endeavouring to impart something to our minds: (the infinite to the finite) and is therefore condescending to use words and concepts which we can understand to explain what to the finite mind is inexplicable. Therefore rather than trying to rationalise these things, by using words such as TRINITY, why do we not stay within the confines of the words and concepts that God has used in His Word, and just accept what is written for our learning in simple faith?

* I hope this makes sense.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

I'll address this further when I have time. Let me just say that the use of the word "He" in reference to the Spirit doesn't prove the Spirit is a separate being. The word He is required by the Greek language. The word that is translated "Comforter" is a masculine word in the Greek text. Greek grammar requires that the pronoun match the noun in gender. It's the same with the word Sophia or wisdom in the Bible. Wisdom is referred to as a she even though we know wisdom is not a being. The Greek grammar requires it.

 

[Sue D.]

@Butch5 -- trying to explain the trinity / Godhead can be difficult. But the concept is throughout Scripture. It's kind of like an egg -- the outer shell keeps the insides together -- but the yoke and white and the other part -can't think of the name of it -- are all necessary parts to produce a chick. The 'chick' is our salvation and how the world functions. Without that 'concept' -- we really have nothing. Kind of like water / three forms / ice/ snow/ sleet. When water becomes cold enough it produces ice that has various uses / snow , well, it accumulates and we can have fun making snowmen and it can be very pretty but also can be treacherous / and sleet -- well -- it simply 'is'.

The Holy Spirit is the part of the Godhead that comes to indwell each believer upon their salvation. The Holy Spirit won't leave us until we are safe with Jesus Christ. And 'it' came upon Mary so that she could conceive Jesus Christ. WITH the virgin birth -- Jesus could be 100 % divine and 100 % human. Mary was human and the Holy Spirit was / is divine. Thus Jesus was born to be our Savior. He was here on earth / the Son of God , 2nd person of the Godhead And Jesus who would die on the cross for us / in our place and rise again on the 3rd day. He came to become the perfect Lamb of God.

God is the Father -- the creator of everything. He wants to be our Heavenly Father.

The very first mention Of the trinity is found in Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, "Let 'Us' make man in Our image, according to Our likeness ........"

It's one of those Biblical truths that a person needs to accept by Faith. Just like salvation is. A person accepts the fact that the blood of Christ is sufficient to take care of all our sins. None of the things we are capable of doing are necessary or needed to complete our salvation.

Kind of like the air we breathe -- we can't see it -except for the effect it has around us. But without it we die. We can Hear air in the form of wind / we can see it when a breeze or wind messes with leaves or whatever is in the air being moved around. And God is that way.

 

[Butch5]

@Butch5 -- trying to explain the trinity / Godhead can be difficult. But the concept is throughout Scripture. It's kind of like an egg -- the outer shell keeps the insides together -- but the yoke and white and the other part -can't think of the name of it -- are all necessary parts to produce a chick. The 'chick' is our salvation and how the world functions. Without that 'concept' -- we really have nothing. Kind of like water / three forms / ice/ snow/ sleet. When water becomes cold enough it produces ice that has various uses / snow , well, it accumulates and we can have fun making snowmen and it can be very pretty but also can be treacherous / and sleet -- well -- it simply 'is'.

The Holy Spirit is the part of the Godhead that comes to indwell each believer upon their salvation. The Holy Spirit won't leave us until we are safe with Jesus Christ. And 'it' came upon Mary so that she could conceive Jesus Christ. WITH the virgin birth -- Jesus could be 100 % divine and 100 % human. Mary was human and the Holy Spirit was / is divine. Thus Jesus was born to be our Savior. He was here on earth / the Son of God , 2nd person of the Godhead And Jesus who would die on the cross for us / in our place and rise again on the 3rd day. He came to become the perfect Lamb of God.

God is the Father -- the creator of everything. He wants to be our Heavenly Father.

The very first mention Of the trinity is found in Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, "Let 'Us' make man in Our image, according to Our likeness ........"

It's one of those Biblical truths that a person needs to accept by Faith. Just like salvation is. A person accepts the fact that the blood of Christ is sufficient to take care of all our sins. None of the things we are capable of doing are necessary or needed to complete our salvation.

Kind of like the air we breathe -- we can't see it -except for the effect it has around us. But without it we die. We can Hear air in the form of wind / we can see it when a breeze or wind messes with leaves or whatever is in the air being moved around. And God is that way.

Ok. You said God is the Father. I agree. Now what about Jesus and the Spirit?

Trinity and Goodhead are not the same. Trinity means three. Godhead is an old English word that means Godhood. It's like fatherhood or motherhood. There isn't a Godhead. It just means Godhood. When we talk about fatherhood we don't suggest that multiple fathers are one Father or multiple mothers are one mother.

The egg analogy doesn't work because the yoke and the white are "parts" of the egg. The Trinity holds that all three persons are God, not parts of God. The water analogy doesn't work because it represents Modalism, not a Trinity.

There's a perfectly good reason why no one can explain the Trinity.

In Gen 1:26 God says, 'let us make man in our image'. The Hewbrew language uses what is known as the Majestic Plural or the Royal We. This is where a monarch uses a plural pronoun to refer to himself.

Additionally, the word translated God in that passage is Elohim which is actually a plural word. It would literally be, and Gods said. We know there is only one God and not many so the use of the word Us doesn't necessitate a plurality.

 

[Sue D.]

@Butch5 -- and the Son of God / Jesus and the Holy Spirit are also part Of the trinity.

I think you simply like to find ways to Argue Scripture instead of upholding it. That gets Old after a while.

The tri-unity of the Godhead -- God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit. All three parts work together to accomplish our salvation.

 

[DieAmartyr]

@Butch5 -- trying to explain the trinity / Godhead can be difficult. But the concept is throughout Scripture. It's kind of like an egg -- the outer shell keeps the insides together -- but the yoke and white and the other part -can't think of the name of it -- are all necessary parts to produce a chick. The 'chick' is our salvation and how the world functions. Without that 'concept' -- we really have nothing. Kind of like water / three forms / ice/ snow/ sleet. When water becomes cold enough it produces ice that has various uses / snow , well, it accumulates and we can have fun making snowmen and it can be very pretty but also can be treacherous / and sleet -- well -- it simply 'is'.

The Holy Spirit is the part of the Godhead that comes to indwell each believer upon their salvation. The Holy Spirit won't leave us until we are safe with Jesus Christ. And 'it' came upon Mary so that she could conceive Jesus Christ. WITH the virgin birth -- Jesus could be 100 % divine and 100 % human. Mary was human and the Holy Spirit was / is divine. Thus Jesus was born to be our Savior. He was here on earth / the Son of God , 2nd person of the Godhead And Jesus who would die on the cross for us / in our place and rise again on the 3rd day. He came to become the perfect Lamb of God.

God is the Father -- the creator of everything. He wants to be our Heavenly Father.

The very first mention Of the trinity is found in Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, "Let 'Us' make man in Our image, according to Our likeness ........"

It's one of those Biblical truths that a person needs to accept by Faith. Just like salvation is. A person accepts the fact that the blood of Christ is sufficient to take care of all our sins. None of the things we are capable of doing are necessary or needed to complete our salvation.

Kind of like the air we breathe -- we can't see it -except for the effect it has around us. But without it we die. We can Hear air in the form of wind / we can see it when a breeze or wind messes with leaves or whatever is in the air being moved around. And God is that way.

Could the Son and the Holy Spirit have existed without the Father?

 

[DieAmartyr]

Ok. You said God is the Father. I agree. Now what about Jesus and the Spirit?

Trinity and Goodhead are not the same. Trinity means three. Godhead is an old English word that means Godhood. It's like fatherhood or motherhood. There isn't a Godhead. It just means Godhood. When we talk about fatherhood we don't suggest that multiple fathers are one Father or multiple mothers are one mother.

The egg analogy doesn't work because the yoke and the white are "parts" of the egg. The Trinity holds that all three persons are God, not parts of God. The water analogy doesn't work because it represents Modalism, not a Trinity.

There's a perfectly good reason why no one can explain the Trinity.

In Gen 1:26 God says, 'let us make man in our image'. The Hewbrew language uses what is known as the Majestic Plural or the Royal We. This is where a monarch uses a plural pronoun to refer to himself.

Additionally, the word translated God in that passage is Elohim which is actually a plural word. It would literally be, and Gods said. We know there is only one God and not many so the use of the word Us doesn't necessitate a plurality.

The idea of Three to form one implies that one cannot exist without the other. While it is true that the Holy Spirit and the Son might not have existed without the Father, they now being in existence can certainly exist and carry the Authority of God individually. I believe that the knowledge and communication, or messages come straight from the Holy Spirit as He is closest to us at all times and is the Omniscience of God. We know each can stand alone and carry the same rank and Authority so in a sense they are each " Gods" but under one name, like partners of a business that goes by one name but has 3 CEOs. None of this is biblical it is just how my brain has sorted it out. Sorry if it is way off.

 

[Sue D.]

God's Word Assumes God's existence -- it's never questioned. Same could apply to the trinity. The tri = 3 working together. Why not just accept what God's Word tells us. God is the One who is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent.

John 17 is an interesting chapter to read. And God is the only One who knows when the rapture will take place. Jesus Christ does not have that knowledge.

The Holy Spirit is the part that teaches us as we read God's Word. He guides us / is the Comforter. Has many roles.

Each part is not a God under the one name. They all act together to bring salvation to pass, but each having their own distinct part.

Most of what you're thinking I correct / Is Biblical.

Some concepts in Scripture Are difficult to understand. If we Could understand Everything, we'd be equal To God and we know that That certainly isn't true.

The Holy Spirit knows that you are searching and you will gradually Be understanding. That applies to All of us. We never Stop learning.

 

[DieAmartyr]

To be honest it does not even matter. We need not concern ourselves with it because it is not our business. They have all that worked out just fine and if we dwell on trying to understand it, we lose precious time that could be spent repenting and praying and glorifying God. Our whole mission is to give thanks and praise God for finding and creating a way to keep us from going to hell- and then not giving the devil legality to take us there. When we die we will ALL see Satan as he stands to our side and pleads with our Lord, accusing us of all we have done wrong and forgot to ask for forgiveness for, finding a REASON why we are not fit for heaven. This is why we need to be " blameless" before God. Are you ready? I hope I am, for the only thing we can be absolutely certain of is that we are going to die, and we do not know when.

 

[complete]

@Butch5 -- trying to explain the trinity / Godhead can be difficult. But the concept is throughout Scripture. It's kind of like an egg -- the outer shell keeps the insides together -- but the yoke and white and the other part -can't think of the name of it -- are all necessary parts to produce a chick. The 'chick' is our salvation and how the world functions. Without that 'concept' -- we really have nothing. Kind of like water / three forms / ice/ snow/ sleet. When water becomes cold enough it produces ice that has various uses / snow , well, it accumulates and we can have fun making snowmen and it can be very pretty but also can be treacherous / and sleet -- well -- it simply 'is'.

The Holy Spirit is the part of the Godhead that comes to indwell each believer upon their salvation. The Holy Spirit won't leave us until we are safe with Jesus Christ. And 'it' came upon Mary so that she could conceive Jesus Christ. WITH the virgin birth -- Jesus could be 100 % divine and 100 % human. Mary was human and the Holy Spirit was / is divine. Thus Jesus was born to be our Savior. He was here on earth / the Son of God , 2nd person of the Godhead And Jesus who would die on the cross for us / in our place and rise again on the 3rd day. He came to become the perfect Lamb of God.

God is the Father -- the creator of everything. He wants to be our Heavenly Father.

The very first mention Of the trinity is found in Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, "Let 'Us' make man in Our image, according to Our likeness ........"

It's one of those Biblical truths that a person needs to accept by Faith. Just like salvation is. A person accepts the fact that the blood of Christ is sufficient to take care of all our sins. None of the things we are capable of doing are necessary or needed to complete our salvation.

Kind of like the air we breathe -- we can't see it -except for the effect it has around us. But without it we die. We can Hear air in the form of wind / we can see it when a breeze or wind messes with leaves or whatever is in the air being moved around. And God is that way.

'Believest thou not that I am in the Father,
and the Father in me?
the words that I speak unto you I speak not of Myself:
but the Father that dwelleth in Me,
He doeth the works.'
(John 14:10)

Hello @Sue D,

Yet don't you think that the use of any word, other than those used in Scripture to define the operation of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit is in itself an intrusion, an though an alien thing. The word 'trinity' has caused such division among believers, that I feel that it would be preferable if it were not used at all. For it is a word born of man's own intellect, and not one that is used in Scripture.

We see the operation of God's divinity portrayed time and time again as all three working in conjunction with each other in order to perform and fulfill the purpose of God, so that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit working as One cannot be in doubt, or that it is God Who does the work.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Hello yet again,

In John 26, we have 'The Comforter, Who is the Holy Ghost, Whom the Father shall send in My name He shall teach you all thing,' and in John 16:14 we have the same truth: 'He (the Spirit) shall glorify Me, for He shall receive of Mine and shall show it unto you. All things that the Father hath are Mine; therefore said I, that He (the Spirit) shall take of Mine and shall show it unto you.'

Yes, 'All things'. All things revealed later by the risen Lord in the Epistles written to the Church of Christ, which is His Body. All things essential to the members of that Body for their salvation and instruction; all things necessary for their safe conduct to glory shall be taught in the school of spiritual experience by the promised Spirit of God, for the benefit and the blessing of all who have been given to Christ by the Father.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit working in conjunction in the performance of the work of God for the believer. Yet the word 'trinity' is nowhere in sight, nor should be, for it is not needed.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Finally,

If I have a cough I know that there is something in my airway that my lungs are trying to get rid of, and I will not stop coughing until it is removed. I feel that the word 'trinity' is causing an obstruction in the airway of the body of Christ, and that there will be constant disagreement until it is removed.

The word of God needs no other words added to explain the operation of God. It is complete in itself.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

@Butch5 -- and the Son of God / Jesus and the Holy Spirit are also part Of the trinity.

I think you simply like to find ways to Argue Scripture instead of upholding it. That gets Old after a while.

The tri-unity of the Godhead -- God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit. All three parts work together to accomplish our salvation.

I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing. I don't really like to argue, I'd rather teach.

The purpose for the question was to get you to think about it. You said God is the Father. I agree. My question about Jesus and the Holy Spirit was an attempt to get you to work through this and see if and how it works.

One thing I often find is that as Christians we tend to throw terms around without explanation and assume that we all understand them the same way. Then when we have a discussion it's like comparing apples and oranges. Your understanding of a Trinity in the Bible and my understanding of a Trinity in the Bible are quite different. So, for us to have a meaningful discussion we need to define our terms. If npt we're just talking past one another.

 

[Butch5]

Finally,

If I have a cough I know that there is something in my airway that my lungs are trying to get rid of, and I will not stop coughing until it is removed. I feel that the word 'trinity' is causing an obstruction in the airway of the body of Christ, and that there will be constant disagreement until it is removed.

The word of God needs no other words added to explain the operation of God. It is complete in itself.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

I don't think it's just the word Trinity that causes a problem, but rather how it's understood. There are a lot of Christians who make belief in this doctrine a determining factor in salvation. I'm not accusing anyone of that, it's just been my experience. I do think it's problematic in several ways. One of those is in witnessing to others. Peter told his readers to always be ready to give an answer for what they believed. How are we to get people to believe in a God that we can't even understand or explain?

 

[Sue D.]

@complete -- you do have your opinion on this matter -- and you're entitled to it.

But there's really nothing wrong with using the term 'trinity' because it Does describe the tri-unity Of the Godhead. Without the trinity, we have no salvation.

@Butch5 -- obviously it 'works' or it wouldn't be in Scripture / God put it there.

Then let's us have a 'learning' Spirit as well. Your 'teaching' comes across as 'either agree with me or you're mistaken'.

The trinity = tri-unity -- God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Butch5]

God's Word Assumes God's existence -- it's never questioned. Same could apply to the trinity. The tri = 3 working together. Why not just accept what God's Word tells us. God is the One who is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent.

John 17 is an interesting chapter to read. And God is the only One who knows when the rapture will take place. Jesus Christ does not have that knowledge.

The Holy Spirit is the part that teaches us as we read God's Word. He guides us / is the Comforter. Has many roles.

Each part is not a God under the one name. They all act together to bring salvation to pass, but each having their own distinct part.

Most of what you're thinking I correct / Is Biblical.

Some concepts in Scripture Are difficult to understand. If we Could understand Everything, we'd be equal To God and we know that That certainly isn't true.

The Holy Spirit knows that you are searching and you will gradually Be understanding. That applies to All of us. We never Stop learning.

Hi Sue,

I'd like to ask for some clarification. You said God is the only one who knows when the Rapture is. Then you said that Jesus doesn't know. Considering those two statements, how is Jesus God? I'm not denying Jesus' Godhood, I'm just trying to work through this.

Also, you said that the Holy Spirit is that part that teaches us. Then you called the Spirit He. What is the Spirit, He, a part of? If God, can you explain how? If the Godhead, can you please explain what that is?

I agree that there are somethings in the Bible that are hard to understand. I would submit though that there aren't things that are contradictory. I would also submit that we can understand everything in the Bible if we have the correct references. After all, the Bible is God's communication with man. There's no point in communicating something that man cannot possibly understand

 

[Sue D.]

@Butch5 -- so you believe that we have to fully understand God and be able to explain Him in order to witness to other people? I don't think Anyone 'Fully' understands God or can be able To 'explain' Him to another person.

But we Can have the assurance of our personal salvation -- understand why That is important and share with another person how 'I' came to accept Jesus Christ as My personal Savior. It's called our personal testimony.

And, yes, we Should know what we believe and Why we believe 'it'. Read, study God's Word. What salvation Is / Why we need it / How to obtain in. That there IS a heaven or hell in each person's future. How to stay Out of hell and be able to Be in heaven. Upon our physical death, we Will be in eternity with No turning back. And the same thing applies to the rapture / up-gathering of born again believers / the Church. We Don't know when that will take place. Only God the Father does. But once That takes place -- in the twinkling of an eye -- our eternal destination Is Decided. No turning back.

And Jesus Christ will come back for us when the Father says it's time to. The death, burial and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ on the 3rd day makes our salvation possible. (without the shedding of innocent blood -- there is no remission of our sins)

Each born again believer has the Holy Spirit indwelling them -- never leaves until we are safe with Jesus Christ.

I do believe that the entire trinity has been brought into this. How all three = tri -- works together in our salvation.

 

[Butch5]

@complete -- you do have your opinion on this matter -- and you're entitled to it.

But there's really nothing wrong with using the term 'trinity' because it Does describe the tri-unity Of the Godhead. Without the trinity, we have no salvation.

@Butch5 -- obviously it 'works' or it wouldn't be in Scripture / God put it there.

Then let's us have a 'learning' Spirit as well. Your 'teaching' comes across as 'either agree with me or you're mistaken'.

The trinity = tri-unity -- God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit.

Hi Sue,

I don't think it's obvious. That's why I'm trying to work through it with you and asking you questions.

It's not agree with me or you're mistaken. It's agree with proper reasoning or one is mistaken.

Suppose someone believed that 1+1=3. Now suppose they came in here and started to argue a calculus problem. Would we engage them in an argument about calculus or would we point out that the premise, 1+1=3, of their argument is wrong? It doesnt matter how well or adamantly they argued. The argument would be wrong because they aren't reasoning properly in the premise. 1+1 doesnt equal 3. So, no matter how passionately they argued the calculus problem it will be wrong because their premise is irrational or no proper reasoning

 

[Sue D.]

Hi Sue,

I'd like to ask for some clarification. You said God is the only one who knows when the Rapture is. Then you said that Jesus doesn't know. Considering those two statements, how is Jesus God? I'm not denying Jesus' Godhood, I'm just trying to work through this.

Also, you said that the Holy Spirit is that part that teaches us. Then you called the Spirit He. What is the Spirit, He, a part of? If God, can you explain how? If the Godhead, can you please explain what that is?

I agree that there are somethings in the Bible that are hard to understand. I would submit though that there aren't things that are contradictory. I would also submit that we can understand everything in the Bible if we have the correct references. After all, the Bible is God's communication with man. There's no point in communicating something that man cannot possibly understand

Jesus Isn't God -- Jesus is the Son of God -- second person of the Godhead.

And you're going to come back with John 10:30 saying that "I and my Father are One" which -- when He was here on earth was true. Jesus was God incarnate (God in the flesh). And That is one of those concepts we simply accept.

The Holy Spirit is referred to as He in John 16:13 -- the Spirit of truth. Otherwise -- the Holy Spirit is referred to in the male gender / He. Just as God is Spirit and is referred to as the Father / a male.

 

[Butch5]

The idea of Three to form one implies that one cannot exist without the other. While it is true that the Holy Spirit and the Son might not have existed without the Father, they now being in existence can certainly exist and carry the Authority of God individually. I believe that the knowledge and communication, or messages come straight from the Holy Spirit as He is closest to us at all times and is the Omniscience of God. We know each can stand alone and carry the same rank and Authority so in a sense they are each " Gods" but under one name, like partners of a business that goes by one name but has 3 CEOs. None of this is biblical it is just how my brain has sorted it out. Sorry if it is way off.

Hi DieAmaetyr,

I can agree in part. I would ask where you see in the Bible that the three have the same rank and authority?

In your analogy if 3 CEO's are you suggesting God as three separat beings?