Trinity Passages Can you spot the trinity in each?

[Butch5]

The very reference in the Bible to the Trinity is Genesis 1:24‭-26 NKJV
Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Can anyone spot it?

Hi Andy,

The Hebrew language uses a grammatical feature called the Majestic plural. This is where a plural is used to emphasize greatness. The word elohim is a plural word yet is used in the Bible of single emtities. It's used of some of the pagan gods this way.

If God was a plurality surely the Jews would have understood elohim in this way,. They didn't. They understood the Shema, hear O Israel, the LORD is one.

A search for Majestic Plural or Royal We will provide sufficient evidence.

 

[complete]

@Anyindauk,
@Buch5
@Brother Paul
@DieAmartyr
@Dave L

Hello there,

It would seem that whenever man tries to apply his own understanding to this matter it always ends in dispute. I believe we should allow the word of God to have the last word, and only use the words that the Holy Spirit uses. How can our finite minds possibly understand how God can be ONE God, and yet manifest Himself in three different ways? Yet we know and believe that He does. Why not allow wonder and awe and worship to replace our attempts to define what is infinite, and therefore beyond our comprehension.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

@Anyindauk,
@Buch5
@Brother Paul
@DieAmartyr
@Dave L

Hello there,

It would seem that whenever man tries to apply his own understanding to this matter it always ends in dispute. I believe we should allow the word of God to have the last word, and only use the words that the Holy Spirit uses. How can our finite minds possibly understand how God can be ONE God, and yet manifest Himself in three different ways? Yet we know and believe that He does. Why not allow wonder and awe and worship to replace our attempts to define what is infinite, and therefore beyond our comprehension.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

I could agree with this idea if in fact the Bible taught it. However, the whole Trinity idea is man trying to understand the Bible. There is nothing in the Bible that says God is a Trinity. In fact we find the opposite, 'God is one'. One isn't three. The three in one God idea didn't appear in church history until the 5th century. It was codified in the Athanasian Creed. However, this creed diverged markedly from the creeds before it. It also makes statements that we don't find in any Creed before it.

It seems to me we should take the words of scripture over those of men. The Apostle Paul said, 'to us there is one God, the Father'. The three in one God idea is from men, not Scripture.

I believe this issue is easily cleared up if we stop imposing this belief onto the Scriptures and trying to make it fit. This idea is not rational. Why don't we look for a rational answer to this conundrum? Remember, the Bible doesn't say there is a three in one God, man says that.

The basic argument is that the Bible calls the Father God and it calls Jesus God. Yet, it says there is one God. Thus people conclude that somehow the Father and Jesus are one. Let's follow that line of reasoning. The Bible also calls Baal and Molech god. Following the reasoning above one would have to conclude that they too are part of the Godhead. Thus instead of a Trinity there would be a quintet. If we searched through the Scriptures we'd likely find more. Since we know from Scripture that Baal and Molech aren't really gods it shows us that that line of reasoning isn't valid. Therefore to say there is a Trinity because the Bible calls Jesus God is not valid as it also calls Molech god. Thus we probably should look for another answer. There is another answer that is valid and rational.

 

[complete]

Hi Chris,

I could agree with this idea if in fact the Bible taught it. However, the whole Trinity idea is man trying to understand the Bible. There is nothing in the Bible that says God is a Trinity. In fact we find the opposite, 'God is one'. One isn't three. The three in one God idea didn't appear in church history until the 5th century. It was codified in the Athanasian Creed. However, this creed diverged markedly from the creeds before it. It also makes statements that we don't find in any Creed before it.

It seems to me we should take the words of scripture over those of men. The Apostle Paul said, 'to us there is one God, the Father'. The three in one God idea is from men, not Scripture.

I believe this issue is easily cleared up if we stop imposing this belief onto the Scriptures and trying to make it fit. This idea is not rational. Why don't we look for a rational answer to this conundrum? Remember, the Bible doesn't say there is a three in one God, man says that.

The basic argument is that the Bible calls the Father God and it calls Jesus God. Yet, it says there is one God. Thus people conclude that somehow the Father and Jesus are one. Let's follow that line of reasoning. The Bible also calls Baal and Molech god. Following the reasoning above one would have to conclude that they too are part of the Godhead. Thus instead of a Trinity there would be a quintet. If we searched through the Scriptures we'd likely find more. Since we know from Scripture that Baal and Molech aren't really gods it shows us that that line of reasoning isn't valid. Therefore to say there is a Trinity because the Bible calls Jesus God is not valid as it also calls Molech god. Thus we probably should look for another answer. There is another answer that is valid and rational.

'In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.'
(Joh 1:1)

'And the Word was made flesh,
and dwelt among us,
(and we beheld His glory,
the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,)
full of grace and truth.'
(Joh 1:14)

Hello @Butch5,

'For the Father Himself loveth you,
because ye have loved Me,
and have believed that I came out from God.
I came forth from the Father,
and am come into the world:
again, I leave the world,
and go to the Father.'
(John 16:27-28)

* The Lord Jesus Christ is God's only Begotten Son.

'And all things are of God,
Who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ,
and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
To wit, that God was in Christ,
reconciling the world unto Himself,
not imputing their trespasses unto them;
and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.'
(2Corinthians 5:18-19)

* God was 'in Christ' reconciling the world unto Himself.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

'In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.'
(Joh 1:1)

'And the Word was made flesh,
and dwelt among us,
(and we beheld His glory,
the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,)
full of grace and truth.'
(Joh 1:14)

Hello @Butch5,

'For the Father Himself loveth you,
because ye have loved Me,
and have believed that I came out from God.
I came forth from the Father,
and am come into the world:
again, I leave the world,
and go to the Father.'
(John 16:27-28)

* The Lord Jesus Christ is God's only Begotten Son.

'And all things are of God,
Who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ,
and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
To wit, that God was in Christ,
reconciling the world unto Himself,
not imputing their trespasses unto them;
and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.'
(2Corinthians 5:18-19)

* God was 'in Christ' reconciling the world unto Himself.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

I'm not sure what you're getting at with these passages. I don't see anything that says God is three in one. I think what is crucial here is how we understand these passages. I think it goes back to our presuppositions

 

[Andyindauk]

Hi Chris,

I'm not sure what you're getting at with these passages. I don't see anything that says God is three in one. I think what is crucial here is how we understand these passages. I think it goes back to our presuppositions

Butch, what you're saying is heresy. This is what the Unitarians teach, and it's out and out wrong. Jesus taught us that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit risks an unpardonable sin Matthew 12:31-32, and denying His existence is pretty close to that. Mate you're making a mistake that because you haven't experienced the Holy Spirit, He can't exist. I urge you to ask God's forgiveness for your sins, accept the gift of salvation from the death of Jesus and ask God to send His Holy Spirit to reveal Himself to you and give you an experience of His wonder.

I accept that the title Holy Trinity isn't a title taken from the Bible but the three constituents of the Trinity do feature separately in the Bible. In the Old Testament Jesus makes several appearances, most notably to Abraham in Genesis 18:1-3 and again as the fourth man in Nebuchadnezzar's furnace Daniel 3:24-26. The Holy Spirit was given to certain leaders, Samson Judges 15:14, Saul 1 Samuel 11:6, He was not given in the same way as He was post ascention but that was prophesied in Joel 2:28.

In the New Testament the Trinity make a rare joint appearance at Jesus's baptism Matthew 3:16-17. Jesus often refers to the Spirit John 14:15-17, John 15:26-27 - I'm not sure why Jesus can't be on Earth at the same time as the Holy Spirit so I just accept He can't but what I do know is that this tells me that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are quite separate but all very much, God.

Can I please emphasise that God's message to man is very simple? Don't bother looking for contradictory translations, there aren't any. One sin is enough to put you on Death Row, but Jesus paid the penalty so you're not out on parole, no you're forgiven, not guilty! You only need to accept that that death of Jesus was for you, and to follow Him. God wants to give you His Holy Spirit, all you need to do is accept Him and pray that He will reveal Himself to you, give you more wisdom and make you more holy and Christ-like.

Do that and God will bless you with more than you can cope with.

 

[Butch5]

Butch, what you're saying is heresy. This is what the Unitarians teach, and it's out and out wrong. Jesus taught us that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit risks an unpardonable sin Matthew 12:31-32, and denying His existence is pretty close to that. Mate you're making a mistake that because you haven't experienced the Holy Spirit, He can't exist. I urge you to ask God's forgiveness for your sins, accept the gift of salvation from the death of Jesus and ask God to send His Holy Spirit to reveal Himself to you and give you an experience of His wonder.

I accept that the title Holy Trinity isn't a title taken from the Bible but the three constituents of the Trinity do feature separately in the Bible. In the Old Testament Jesus makes several appearances, most notably to Abraham in Genesis 18:1-3 and again as the fourth man in Nebuchadnezzar's furnace Daniel 3:24-26. The Holy Spirit was given to certain leaders, Samson Judges 15:14, Saul 1 Samuel 11:6, He was not given in the same way as He was post ascention but that was prophesied in Joel 2:28.

In the New Testament the Trinity make a rare joint appearance at Jesus's baptism Matthew 3:16-17. Jesus often refers to the Spirit John 14:15-17, John 15:26-27 - I'm not sure why Jesus can't be on Earth at the same time as the Holy Spirit so I just accept He can't but what I do know is that this tells me that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are quite separate but all very much, God.

Can I please emphasise that God's message to man is very simple? Don't bother looking for contradictory translations, there aren't any. One sin is enough to put you on Death Row, but Jesus paid the penalty so you're not out on parole, no you're forgiven, not guilty! You only need to accept that that death of Jesus was for you, and to follow Him. God wants to give you His Holy Spirit, all you need to do is accept Him and pray that He will reveal Himself to you, give you more wisdom and make you more holy and Christ-like.

Do that and God will bless you with more than you can cope with.

Hi Andy,

Let me say that I have taken no offense at your post. I would, however, ask that you refrain from such posts. They only wind up getting the thread shut down. And, I would really like to see this thread continue. Hopefully we can shed some light on this very confusing subject. What I said might be considered heresy today, but it wasn't back when Christianity first started. It was the common belief. What is commonly believed today didn't show up in the church until the 5th century. That raises a question. If this is what the Bible teaches, why didn't the church teach it before hte 5th century?

I didn't deny the existence of the Holy Spirit, I submitted that the Holy Spirit isn't a third person, but rather is a limited manifestation of the Father. We have this from Jesus Himself. Now that I am at my computer I can post the appropriate passages. In John 14-16 Jesus talks with His disciples.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
(Jn. 14:16-18 KJV)

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (Jn. 14:26 KJV)

I think Christians universally agree that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit. At the end of this discussion with His disciples Jesus said this.

"These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father. (Jn. 16:25 NKJ)

All this things Jesus has been saying are figurative. Then He says the time will come when I will tell you plainly of the Father. In other words, what Jesus has been saying of the Comforter and Holy Spirit was about the Father. The Holy Spirit is the Father.

We see this same thing in Luke. Jesus called God His Father. He didn't say the Holy Spirit was His Father. Luke records these words.

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. (Lk. 1:35 KJV)

Here Luke records the incarnation. We see here a parallelism. Luke equates the Holy Spirit to the power of the Highest. He doesn't indicate a third person. Note also he says what is born of Mary will be called the Son of God. He didn't say what was born would be called the Son of the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit was a third person then Jesus would be the Son of the Holy Spirit and not the Son of the Father. The only way that Jesus can be the Son of the Father and still be produced by the Holy Spirit is if the Holy Spirit is a manifestation of the Father. The Spirit cannot be a third person, impregnate Mary and not be the Father of Jesus. It must be a manifestation of the Father in order for Jesus to be the Son of the Highest.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Let me say that I have taken no offense at your post. I would, however, ask that you refrain from such posts. They only wind up getting the thread shut down. And, I would really like to see this thread continue.

Dear Butch5,
You are correct in your observation.
You might believe/hold the position as it pertains to the Trinity, but in truth it goes against the Statement of Faith which can be found at the bottom of each page.
So, please take care how far you go with this.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Butch5]

Dear Butch5,
You are correct in your observation.
You might believe/hold the position as it pertains to the Trinity, but in truth it goes against the Statement of Faith which can be found at the bottom of each page.
So, please take care how far you go with this.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

Hi Chris,

What is your implication? Is it not allowed to disagree the Trinity doctrine? I noticed too that the SOF states the belief in eternal torment yet I've not seen anyone say this discussion isn't allowed.

I have found on other forums that the Trinity doctrine is placed off limits. I believe this done because they can't give an adequate defense of it. Personally, I don't think any doctrine should be off limits. If it's a sound Biblical doctrine then defending it should be easy and straight forward. If it can't be easily defended I think we should ask questions.

 

[complete]

Hi Chris,

I'm not sure what you're getting at with these passages. I don't see anything that says God is three in one. I think what is crucial here is how we understand these passages. I think it goes back to our presuppositions

Hello Butch5,

You misunderstand my reason for posting. I simply want to consider what the Scriptures say. The word 'Trinity' is man's word. It is what the Scripture reveals about God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit that matters, and not our understanding expressed in any form.

The Scripture shows the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit working in conjunction in relation to so many things, and which is not so surprising, for they are One God.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Christ4Ever]

Hi Chris,

What is your implication? Is it not allowed to disagree the Trinity doctrine? I noticed too that the SOF states the belief in eternal torment yet I've not seen anyone say this discussion isn't allowed.

I have found on other forums that the Trinity doctrine is placed off limits. I believe this done because they can't give an adequate defense of it. Personally, I don't think any doctrine should be off limits. If it's a sound Biblical doctrine then defending it should be easy and straight forward. If it can't be easily defended I think we should ask questions.

Dear Brother,
Did you notice I was agreeing with the statement you made concerning what Brother Andyindauk posted?
Just informing you, that if its a siding of positions that becomes necessary to make. The position of the Trinity being true is what will be accepted as seen in the SOF.

We do provide leeway in topics, if you haven't noticed, but I believe you have. However, how members respond to each other when doing so, becomes even more important, because as professing Christians, it shouldn't be, but it does get real personal at times, and that is something we try to nip at the bud. With that being said. The thread on "Eternal Torment" you brought up. Are you saying this is a problem for you and that as a Moderator you'd like me to make a decision using the SOF, on whether to keep it open or closed? If so, please PM me so we can discuss this, and allow this thread to continue without anymore interruption.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Butch5]

Dear Brother,
Did you notice I was agreeing with the statement you made concerning what Brother Andyindauk posted?
Just informing you, that if its a siding of positions that becomes necessary to make. The position of the Trinity being true is what will be accepted as seen in the SOF.

We do provide leeway in topics, if you haven't noticed, but I believe you have. However, how members respond to each other when doing so, becomes even more important, because as professing Christians, it shouldn't be, but it does get real personal at times, and that is something we try to nip at the bud. With that being said. The thread on "Eternal Torment" you brought up. Are you saying this is a problem for you and that as a Moderator you'd like me to make a decision using the SOF, on whether to keep it open or closed? If so, please PM me so we can discuss this, and allow this thread to continue without anymore interruption.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

Hi Nick,

First let me apologize for calling you Chris. I mistook who the post was from. I did see that you agreed with that part of the post. I was hoping to avoid the thread being shut down. I'm not asking for a decision. I was basically asking if this subject is off limits. From previous discussions I thought this subject was allowed. If I'm wrong please let me know. When I saw your statememt about being careful how far I go, it lead me to think this subject may be off limits. At that point I checked the SOF and that's when I notice the statement about eternal torment. I know there have been threads on this subject and I didn't see anything that said it wasn't allowed to be discussed. That's why mentioned it in connection to this subject of the Trinity. I know on some forums this subject is off limits

 

[Butch5]

Hello Butch5,

You misunderstand my reason for posting. I simply want to consider what the Scriptures say. The word 'Trinity' is man's word. It is what the Scripture reveals about God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit that matters, and not our understanding expressed in any form.

The Scripture shows the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit working in conjunction in relation to so many things, and which is not so surprising, for they are One God.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

Ok. I don't know how you understand those passages. I didn't see any commentary and didnt want to assume how you understand them

 

[Andyindauk]

Hi Andy,

Let me say that I have taken no offense at your post. I would, however, ask that you refrain from such posts. They only wind up getting the thread shut down. And, I would really like to see this thread continue. Hopefully we can shed some light on this very confusing subject. What I said might be considered heresy today, but it wasn't back when Christianity first started. It was the common belief. What is commonly believed today didn't show up in the church until the 5th century. That raises a question. If this is what the Bible teaches, why didn't the church teach it before hte 5th century?

I didn't deny the existence of the Holy Spirit, I submitted that the Holy Spirit isn't a third person, but rather is a limited manifestation of the Father. We have this from Jesus Himself. Now that I am at my computer I can post the appropriate passages. In John 14-16 Jesus talks with His disciples.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
(Jn. 14:16-18 KJV)

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (Jn. 14:26 KJV)

I think Christians universally agree that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit. At the end of this discussion with His disciples Jesus said this.

"These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father. (Jn. 16:25 NKJ)

All this things Jesus has been saying are figurative. Then He says the time will come when I will tell you plainly of the Father. In other words, what Jesus has been saying of the Comforter and Holy Spirit was about the Father. The Holy Spirit is the Father.

We see this same thing in Luke. Jesus called God His Father. He didn't say the Holy Spirit was His Father. Luke records these words.

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. (Lk. 1:35 KJV)

Here Luke records the incarnation. We see here a parallelism. Luke equates the Holy Spirit to the power of the Highest. He doesn't indicate a third person. Note also he says what is born of Mary will be called the Son of God. He didn't say what was born would be called the Son of the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit was a third person then Jesus would be the Son of the Holy Spirit and not the Son of the Father. The only way that Jesus can be the Son of the Father and still be produced by the Holy Spirit is if the Holy Spirit is a manifestation of the Father. The Spirit cannot be a third person, impregnate Mary and not be the Father of Jesus. It must be a manifestation of the Father in order for Jesus to be the Son of the Highest.

Hi Butch,

What I see in this post is error. You're saying that 2 + 2 = 3. Yes, you quote relevant passages but you've drawn the wrong answer from them. Look again at Luke.

“How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. Luke 1:34‭-‬35 NIV

We don’t know what that 'overshadow' process involved. I doubt it involved the fertilising of an egg, probably the baby had hardly any attributes of Mary but what I do know is that God was the baby Jesus's father. How do I know? It says so, quite clearly: 'So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.' I fail to see how you can deduce that as confirmation that the Trinity is actually a duo?

It would be easier to draw the wrong conclusion that Jesus and God are one and the same, from what Jesus said:
Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. John 14:8‭-‬14 NIV
Jesus and God are the same, but also quite separate.

Further into this chapter it reads:
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. John 14:16‭-‬17‭, ‬24 NIV

The Spirit of truth (Holy Spirit) is addressed as 'him' and 'he', ie the Father sends him, the Father gives you another advocate (Holy Spirit).

The great commission in Matthew 28:19 Jesus Himself tells us ...
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19 NIV. The Apostle John tells us in 1 John 5:7 -

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. I John 5:7 NKJV

I don't want you to take offence: I want you to take action and repent of this heresy and so save your soul. If this thread gets pulled so be it but I hope you get to read this message first and pray to God for forgiveness. I'm praying for you.

Best wishes,

Andy

 

[complete]

I posted this to some antitrinitarian forums. I was hoping they could see it. But it turned out, none could. How are your Trinity spotting skills?

Hi @Dave L,

I would just like to continue with these verses you have given:-

Rom 8:9
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

* This is an interesting verse, because here we have the Holy Spirit referred to as both 'the Spirit of God' and 'the Spirit of Christ', yes? I will open it out a little and see what is being said here:-

'So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
.. But ye are not in the flesh,
.... but in the Spirit,
...... if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
........ Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ,
.......... he is none of His.
And if Christ be in you,
.. the body is dead because of sin;
.... but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you,
.. He that raised up Christ from the dead
.... shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.'
(Romans 8:8-11)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Hi @Dave L,

I would just like to continue with these verses you have given:-

* This is an interesting verse, because here we have the Holy Spirit referred to as both 'the Spirit of God' and 'the Spirit of Christ', yes? I will open it out a little and see what is being said here:-

'So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
.. But ye are not in the flesh,
.... but in the Spirit,
...... if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
........ Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ,
.......... he is none of His.
And if Christ be in you,
.. the body is dead because of sin;
.... but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you,
.. He that raised up Christ from the dead
.... shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.'
(Romans 8:8-11)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hello again, @Dave L.

No, I was tripped up there: For Pneuma Christou = Christ-spirit (there is no article in the Greek). This is not another name for the Holy Spirit. Neither is it a separate spirit distinct from the Holy Spirit, for the 'spirit of Christ', as man, was psychological; and was, as such, commended to the Father at His death (Luke 23:46). There is no other spirit of Christ. But this, pneuma Christou is the new nature which makes us sons of God. In Galatians 4:6-7 we read:-

'And because ye are sons,
God hath sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son;
and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.'

Praise God!

Sorry for this diversion.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Where do you see a Trinity?

Good verses...The trinity is there...Especially if you allow the Holy Spirit to teach.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

It would be helpful if we defined what we mean by Trinity.

Butch..you need to stop reading the Word with the intellect and listen to the Holy Spirit. He is our teacher.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch,

What I see in this post is error. You're saying that 2 + 2 = 3. Yes, you quote relevant passages but you've drawn the wrong answer from them. Look again at Luke.

“How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. Luke 1:34‭-‬35 NIV

We don’t know what that 'overshadow' process involved. I doubt it involved the fertilising of an egg, probably the baby had hardly any attributes of Mary but what I do know is that God was the baby Jesus's father. How do I know? It says so, quite clearly: 'So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.' I fail to see how you can deduce that as confirmation that the Trinity is actually a duo?

It would be easier to draw the wrong conclusion that Jesus and God are one and the same, from what Jesus said:
Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. John 14:8‭-‬14 NIV
Jesus and God are the same, but also quite separate.

Further into this chapter it reads:
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. John 14:16‭-‬17‭, ‬24 NIV

The Spirit of truth (Holy Spirit) is addressed as 'him' and 'he', ie the Father sends him, the Father gives you another advocate (Holy Spirit).

The great commission in Matthew 28:19 Jesus Himself tells us ...
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19 NIV. The Apostle John tells us in 1 John 5:7 -

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. I John 5:7 NKJV

I don't want you to take offence: I want you to take action and repent of this heresy and so save your soul. If this thread gets pulled so be it but I hope you get to read this message first and pray to God for forgiveness. I'm praying for you.

Best wishes,

Andy

Hi Andy,

I'm more than willing to discuss this with you. However, I'm going to ask again that you refrain from condemning statements so that this thread doesn't get closed, It's not fair to those who would like serious discussion. I would ask you again, If what you say is what the Bible teaches, why don't we find it taught in the church until the 5th century. Please answer this question.

I realize that you understand these passages a certain way. Have you considered that they could be understood differently? Regarding the use of the masculine pronouns, He and Him for the Spirit, that's what we find in the English translations. If we look at the Greek text we find that the pronouns are not masculine but neuter. In the Greek text the Spirit is referred to as, it. The only place in the Greek text where the Spirit is called "He" is in John where Jesus called the Spirit the Comforter. The reason that the Spirit is called "He" in this case is because of a grammatical requirement of the Greek text. Greek requires that the pronouns match the gender of the noun. The Greek word that is translated "conforter" is masculine in gender, therefore, the language requires that the pronoun be masculine also. If Jesus was talking about a rock and called it the comforter, He would have to say, he, even though the rock is actually an it.

I've mention translator bias in other threads and this is a case of it. Most if not all translation boards require one to hold the Trinity position in order to work on a translation. This being the case every translation will lean toward a Trinitarian view of the Scriptures. When making a translation the Trinity doctrine is never challenged, thus every translation supports it.

1 John 5:7, known as the Johannine Comma is most likely an addition to the text as it's only found is a few very late texts. It's not found in any early texts of the Bible. But, even if it was original is could be easily understood in the sense of unity. The Father and the Son are in unity. Jesus said plainly that He had come to do the will of the Father. He said in the garden, 'not my will but thine be done'. So we see that they are unified. Saying I and the Father are one shows that they are unified. It doesn't show that the Father and the Son are the same when Jesus says the Father sent me or when He says He is returning to the Father. One cannot leave and return to oneself.

The passages I gave you are pretty clear. Luke equates the Holy Spirit with the power of the Highest. And Jesus said when He was speaking of the Comforter, which Scripture says is the Holy Spirit, He was speaking figuratively of the Father. Can you please address these?[/QUOTE]

 

[Butch5]

Butch..you need to stop reading the Word with the intellect and listen to the Holy Spirit. He is our teacher.

OK. Can you show me where the Holy Spirit teaches the Trinity?