To fulfill the law

[Glow]

Perhaps I misunderstood what this topic was about...perhaps I have misunderstood what you have been saying...or perhaps not.

I agree with you 100% that people, whether Christ followers or not, can not become justified, can not earn the righteousness of God, and can not earn their salvation by obeying a list of rules. People, whether Christ followers or not, can not earn the free gift of salvation through works. I agree 100%!!
If by "fulfill the law" you mean that we must obey every single aspect in order to earn/gain salvation and righteousness, then I agree that Christians do not have to fulfill the law, because Christ has already done so, giving us the free gift of Salvation which can not be earned but can only be accepted through faith.
But, if "fulfill the law" means that Christians, who have already been saved and born again through faith, should still obey it in order that they might not sin against God but rather try to please Him and do what is right, then I hold my ground that all Christians should continue to obey God's laws through faith.
*I'd appreciate if someone could clarify which this topic is talking about*

God has called His people to "be Holy as I Am Holy" (1 Peter 1:13-16). We are called to walk in the Light as Children of the Light (Romans 13:11-14; Ephesians 5:1-20; 1 John 1:5-7). As Christians, we are new creatures, born again of the Spirit of God, children of God our Father.
In argument to those who say we shouldn't obey God's laws, or those who say we don't have to obey God, what I'm trying to say about "God's laws" is pretty much summed up by Romans 3:19-20, 27-31
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
...
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Don't try to earn salvation through obedience to the law. Rather, obey the law through faith in Jesus Christ. Do what is right because you want to do what is right because it is right...not because someone told you to or because you are forced to. If God's law is written on your heart, then no one will have to tell you, "Don't steal", "You're not supposed to lie!", "You can't commit adultery" etc.
I, myself, don't want to sin against my God, for He is a Holy God. Because of that, I do my best to stay away from sin. And occasionally I may ask someone, "Is this sin?" (because in my heart, if it's sin then I don't want to do it), and because I asked I get accused of being "legalistic".
I'm not worried about obeying the law to the t so I can earn my salvation. But rather, I don't want to sin against my God.
Different angle, different perspective. It changes the whole scenario.

Amen. And the Holy Spirit is the one who gives us that wonderful life once we place our faith in Jesus Christ. We become new creatures who desire to serve Him, who desire to follow Him. Not for salvation's sake, but because we love Him and don't want to do anything that would be sinful towards our God.

Although there can certainly be struggles, it all comes back to Jesus. He is our righteousness! And everyone who places their faith in Him will receive the wonderful gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Barny]

God has called His people to "be Holy as I Am Holy" (1 Peter 1:13-16). We are called to walk in the Light as Children of the Light (Romans 13:11-14; Ephesians 5:1-20; 1 John 1:5-7). As Christians, we are new creatures, born again of the Spirit of God, children of God our Father.
In argument to those who say we shouldn't obey God's laws, or those who say we don't have to obey God, what I'm trying to say about "God's laws" is pretty much summed up by Romans 3:19-20, 27-31
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Don't try to earn salvation through obedience to the law. Rather, obey the law through faith in Jesus Christ. Do what is right because you want to do what is right because it is right...not because someone told you to or because you are forced to. If God's law is written on your heart, then no one will have to tell you, "Don't steal", "You're not supposed to lie!", "You can't commit adultery" etc.
I, myself, don't want to sin against my God, for He is a Holy God. Because of that, I do my best to stay away from sin. And occasionally I may ask someone, "Is this sin?" (because in my heart, if it's sin then I don't want to do it), and because I asked I get accused of being "legalistic".
I'm not worried about obeying the law to the t so I can earn my salvation. But rather, I don't want to sin against my God.
Different angle, different perspective. It changes the whole scenario.

I guess another way to explain it to help clarify things is, do you consider a believer to be righteous/holy even though they do not live a life of perfect obedience to the law?

For legalists their answer to this question is "No". In this they show by their works of the law (unbelief/sin) that they deny God, Tit 1:16.

So how does one "be Holy as I Am Holy" (1 Peter 1:16)?
It's through Christ's sacrifice that we're holy.

Heb 10:10
By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Rom 11:16
if the firstfruit (Christ, 1Cor 15:20) is holy, the lump (Christians) is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

And how do we establish/uphold the law?
We submit to God's righteousness, instead of trying to attain or prove it by deeds/works of the law.

So if we continue to obey God's will (John 6:40) to believe in Jesus, without spot and blameless on this His commandment (1Tim 6:14), then we will be Holy, as He is Holy.

But the legalist is like the man who sees himself in the mirror and as soon as he turns away he forgets what manner of man he was, James 1:23,24. The legalist receives Christ and thus his faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. But then, they turn back to the law thinking that unless they have evidence in their lives of perfect obedience to the law then they are not righteous and holy. In other words they have forgotten that it was Christ's sacrifice that sanctified them and made them holy.

Legalists are not doers of the word. Sadly they are hearers only, deceiving themselves, James 1:22.

As for our behavior once we're a Christian, there we see varying degrees of improvement.
Those with death bed salvation (such as the thief on the cross) we see no improvement.
For others we see anything from very little to much improvement.

But, what of non-Christians who display good behavior?
Some non-believers show a better lifestyle than some believers do. But as they deny that Jesus is the Christ, then clearly they are not righteous and holy.

So, is our behavior to be judged as evidence for whether we're righteous and holy?
No! As then we would be going beyond the gospel of grace and back into works of the law for righteousness (which is exactly what Satan, the accuser, wants, Rev 12:8-10).

Satan wants us to be under the law judging righteousness by whether we obey it or not. He knows that under the law we will fail to keep it perfectly and thus we'll be condemned.

And anyone who does follow Satan's lead back under the law only makes themselves a sinner.
Gal 2:18
if I build again those things which I destroyed (righteousness by deeds of the law), I make myself a transgressor/SINNER

Such bring themselves under the law, and whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.

Note Heb 10:26-19 regarding those who are legalists.
For if we sin willfully (Gal 2:18) after we have received the knowledge of the truth (gospel of grace), there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

The legalists trample the Son of God underfoot....insulting the Spirit of grace through their turning back to the law to determine whether one is righteous or not.
It was Christ's sacrifice that sanctified us. So in believing in Jesus we're sanctified (Heb 10:10), holy (Rom 11:16), perfected (Heb 10:14), and righteous, all through Christ's sacrifice.

Now regarding the concerns that some here may have that other Christians think grace is a license to do wrong, the fact is that we will not profit by doing wrong. God disciplines us. Consider King David with his adultery and murder.

So, back to my earlier question. Do you consider a believer to be righteous/holy even though they do not live a life of perfect obedience to the law?

 

[Glow]

.....

Hello. Sorry if I'm jumping in a bit, but I have a question. I agree that faith in Jesus is the only way of salvation, and legalism is wrong. But I've been reading your posts and I am a bit concerned as to whether you may be promoting the idea that Christians can and should sin willfully without any care for God (forgive me if I'm wrong). My question to you, then, is this:

Do you believe that, once a believer puts their faith in Jesus Christ, that they become a new creature, as it says in 2 Corinthians 5:17? In other words, do you believe that the Holy Spirit indwells everyone who believes in Christ, and therefore changes their heart?

 

[Barny]

Hello. Sorry if I'm jumping in a bit, but I have a question. I agree that faith in Jesus is the only way of salvation, and legalism is wrong. But I've been reading your posts and I am a bit concerned as to whether you may be promoting the idea that Christians can and should sin willfully without any care for God (forgive me if I'm wrong). My question to you, then, is this:

Do you believe that, once a believer puts their faith in Jesus Christ, that they become a new creature, as it says in 2 Corinthians 5:17? In other words, do you believe that the Holy Spirit indwells everyone who believes in Christ, and therefore changes their heart?

Hi Glow,

I'd say we define "sin" differently which contributes to misunderstandings.

Here's some examples of God's definitions of sin:
1:Transgression of the law, 1John 3:4. Christians cannot be charged with this sin as we're not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9).

2: Unrighteousness, 1John 5:17. Christians cannot be charged with this sin as our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

3: Unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9. Christians cannot be charged with this sin as we do believe in Jesus (providing we do not turn back to the law, which is unbelief).

So how can someone sin?
They are in unbelief, which is the sin the world is convicted of, John 16:9.

What's an example of unbelief?
Turning back to the law to determine righteousness.
Gal 2:18
if I build again those things which I destroyed (righteousness by deeds of the law), I make myself a transgressor/SINNER

Remember that whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19. Therefore legalists, for example, are sinners/non-believers as they bring themselves under the law to determine righteousness. Legalists forget that Christ's sacrifice sanctified them and they instead try to be perfected by the flesh through deeds of the law.

It's the legalists who Heb 10:26-29 refers to as they bring themselves under the law (sin willfully, Gal 2:18) instead of believing in Jesus that his sacrifice sanctified us.
For if we sin willfully (Gal 2:18) after we have received the knowledge of the truth (gospel of grace), there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?


You are wrong in suspecting that I'm saying grace is a license to do wrong. If you read my previous post again you'll see that I addressed this issue.

I likewise have a question for you to clarify my understanding of what you believe. It's the same question I had in my previous post.
Do you consider a believer to be righteous/holy even though they do not live a life of perfect obedience to the law?

 

[spirit1st]

God reveals stuff to people and some , refuse to live it . Now He is long suffering and has great mercy on the called for a time ? But after so long? He might let them go .But He never let loose of the elect .

Our spirit He gives us is the new perfect creature. Our flesh is the same old dying body it ever was. It did not get perfect. Nor will it ever be.
That does not mean we cannot suffer in the flesh for sins. We can.

Many today in the churches who really belong to Him and Love Him are suffering because of the sins they are doing or have done. We reap what we sow . Unless we obey His word and repent or if we do get sickly because of sin ? We can be healed by obeying His living words by going before the elders as in James.

All the good comes from our heart [Spirit] It starts there . but the flesh mind when renewed . Changed in it thinking will automatically start doing those good things.
After it been trained too . That why many think it from there flesh mind when in fact it all started from the New creature , our Spirit man.

People have for years taught , fixing the outward man is the key , when it always the inward man that MUST be changed first .

Mat_23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat_23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Luk_11:39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

Because they care about the appearance other see . Not understanding it the inside that NEEDs to be Changed first .

Rom_7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
2Co_4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

1Pe_3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

Eph_2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Eph_4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col_3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

We put on the new man at Salvation. Our new spirit is the new Man , New Creature , Inner man, inward man , hidden man and new spirit being . He makes us at Salvation or we can say NEW BIRTH , which it is .

He does not want us sinning. If we keep sinning ? He just might take us out of this world . He not going to allow us to shame our LORD over and over .

He deals with us and we better listen then .

Col_3:25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

Job_5:17 Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:

Pro_3:11 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:

Isa_26:16 LORD, in trouble have they visited thee, they poured out a prayer when thy chastening was upon them.

Heb_12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

Heb_12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Heb_12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

He never gives up on His children .
It like our children ? The older they get . The more we expect of them .

At first ? Nothing we do is very bad . It like a honey moon. but after we grow some ? He begins to expect more from us and we should be appearing more like our Lord Jesus .

God hates sin 100% .It only took one sin to destroy this planet , everything on it and the heaven we see .

That why He made the few , New creatures that cannot sin .Or no one would have have eternal life.

God cannot have even one sinner in heaven . It would defile the new heaven [New Jerusalem ]

There was a heaven , before New Jerusalem , the demons appeared before the LORD and by there appearing there ? defiled it , That why God created New Jerusalem for us .

2Co_5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Rev_21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

This is a New Creation ,Joh_14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

He started with a New Heaven , Then New creatures , then He will create a New earth and the Heavens we see .
He really has Created all things New . We just have not seen it all yet . But some is already finished 100%.

We think small .God thinks BIG .Thank You LORD .I love the big thinking. I do not think much about my little thinking.


Heb_12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels

He had to be the first to enter the new heaven [New Jerusalem] He had to be first and everything , then we follow HIM .

1Co_15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Mat_27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Col_1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Once Our LORD JESUS entered New Jerusalem ? Then all the angels and other creatures He has and mankind spirits could enter in .

Eph_3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Meaning some of us are up there now and some of us are still stuck in these weak bodies here . But we all will be with HIM soon.