To fulfill the law

[B-A-C]

Matt 5:17; "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
The verse above is often taken many different ways, depending on your theology.
Some believe it was only meant for the Jews, because they believe the Gentiles weren't obligated under the law.
Others believe Jesus fulfilled every part of the law for every person.
For example universalists believe that Jesus fulfilled perfect obedience to Moses Law so that we don't have to. They believe everyone
is going to heaven whether you want to or not, it doesn't even matter if you believe in Jesus.
Antimonianists believe the same thing, but they add that you must at least believe in Jesus. They believe that since Jesus fulfilled
the "entire" law for everyone not only do we not have to be obedient, we shouldn't even try to be obedient to the law. They take this
to the absurd notion that being obedient to the Law is against God's will.
When we put this passage in context, we see that it is talking about the law of Moses (the Commandments)
Matt 5:18; For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matt 5:19; Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 5:20; For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 5:21; Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Thou shalt not kill was one of the 10 commandments found in Exodus 20.
There is another small (but growing) group of people, that don't believe the laws of the old Testament apply to Gentiles, they believe you can sin, but that
God and the Bible aren't what defines sin, they believe that you yourself and society define what sin is. The problem with this is that society
makes itself more powerful than God. They make the rules now, God doesn't. That sounds a like many governments in the world today. In the state
I live in, homosexual marriage, smoking marijuana, and looking at child pornography are all legal. So therefore these people believe these things
aren't sin because society says it's OK. The Bible says we are all born into sin and the heart is desperately sick and wicked above alll things.
If this is true, then man is incapable of setting his own rules of society.
The majority of people believe that Jesus obedience fulfilled the law in the area that we are unable to. We as humans are unable to be perfect and
live perfectly sinless lives (although we are able to mature in our Christian walk an conquer habitual sin), so the grace of Jesus covers our failings.
Yet he expects us to try to live as righteously as possible.
Jesus himself has a law. Pauls writes it to the Galations (Gentiles)
Gal 6:2; Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.
Keeping the commandments are mentioned 9 times in the New Testament.
Matt 19:17; John 14:15; John 15:10; 1 Jn 2:3; 1 Jn 2:4; 1 Jn 3:22; 1 Jn 5:3; Rev 12:17; Rev 14:12
There is quite a bit of contention about which commandments these are. But generally it comes down to loving your neighbor.
Matt 5:43-45; Matt 19:19; Matt 22:39; Mark 12:31; Mark 12:33; Luke 10:27; Rom 13:8-10; Gal 5:14; Jas 2:8;
So what fulfilling the law of Christ really comes down to, is loving your neighbors.
Rom 8:2-4; and Gal 5:18; say that if we are led by the Holy Spirit we aren't under the law. Yet the Holy Spirit is what gives us the power to love one another.
John 13:34-35; John 15:12; John 15:17; Rom 12:10; Rom 13:8; Eph 4:2; 1 Thes 3:12; Heb 10:24; 1 Pet 1:22; 1 Jn 3:11; 1 Jn 4:12; 2 Jn 1:5; etc...

 

[brakelite]

Hi BAC. I agree with almost everything you have said above, with one reservation. "Trying to do our best" will always end in failure, and contradicts what you have stated correctly elswhere, that we can overcome sin.
Therefore, if by our own efforts we can do nothing but fail, then it must be by faith. But faith in what, or who? Not in ourselves certainly, but faith in God to accomplish in us what we cannot. That is to live a live in perfect conformity to God's laws, and yes, through the love that gives us that we can share that love with our neighbours. All by faith. It then ceases to be by own own effort, and no-one can charge the obedient of being lagalistic or attempting to gain salvation by their own works. Thus love is "the fulfilment of the law". In the Bible this is called 'righteousness by faith'.

 

[spirit1st]

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


Gal_2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal_5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Heb_10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Heb_8:10 *For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:*
Heb_10:16 *This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;*

The Only Laws He writes in our heart [Spirit] is LOVE and Faith !

Rom_5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.




2Ti_1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1Th_5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Ti_1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
Rom_1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Eph_3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
1Ti_1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Rom_1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Gal_3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

 

[B-A-C]

Therefore, if by our own efforts we can do nothing but fail, then it must be by faith. But faith in what, or who? Not in ourselves certainly, but faith in God to accomplish in us what we cannot. That is to live a live in perfect conformity to God's law

I never meant to say it's by our own power. But yes, he does change us to be like him.

Luke 6:40; "A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.

 

[Barny]

That is to live a live in perfect conformity to God's laws

Hi brakelite,

What you said above is the same message as under the old covenant (ministry of condemnation/death, written and engraved in stones, 2Cor 3:7). It's the same message of perfect obedience/conformity to the law. And no doubt the doctrine you follow also says that without this perfect obedience/conformity to the law, Christians are lost.

and no-one can charge the obedient of being lagalistic or attempting to gain salvation by their own works

.

God makes the charge in His word.

Gal 3:2,3
Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Gal 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


Gal 5:7-9
Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.

A little leaven (doctrine of works of the law, Matt 16:12) leaveneth the whole lump.

Doctrines of works of the law are spiritual fornication with Hagar/the law (Gal 4:24).

Gal 4:21-24

Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—

We are to flee fornication with Hagar, 1Cor 6:18.
God's will is that we abstain from fornication, 1Thess 4:3.
We are to purge out therefore the old leaven (doctrines of works of the law, Matt 16:12), 1Cor 5:7.
1Cor 5:13 even says to put away from among yourself that wicked person who still preaches works of the law/fornication with Hagar.

In the Bible this is called 'righteousness by faith'.

And righteousness by faith is not perfect obedience/conformity to the law, as scriptures reveal.

Rom 4:5
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Phil 3:9
and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

 

[spirit1st]

Yes it what our CREATOR did for Us ! Not what we might do!

Man seems to want credit for His works toward salvation ? But it a FREE GIFT!

Our LORD has already done the works 1 Thank YOU LORD JESUS!

He gets All the Glory because He alone did it All!

 

[brakelite]

Hi brakelite,

What you said above is the same message as under the old covenant (ministry of condemnation/death, written and engraved in stones, 2Cor 3:7). It's the same message of perfect obedience/conformity to the law. And no doubt the doctrine you follow also says that without this perfect obedience/conformity to the law, Christians are lost.

First, the old covenant was never about anyone being justified by obedience to the law. There is not one instance where anyone, Jew or Gentile, from Adam to this present day, where they were at all justified by their obedience to the law. It has always been and always will be by faith. So you may refrain from throwing up these red herring straw man arguments about justification by works. The discussion isn't about being justified. We are all Christians here. We are already justified. The disussion is about whether or not we as children should obey our Father.....whether we are obligated to obey God's laws. The discussion is about whether or not we as Christians should surrender or submit to God's authority. Does God have the authority to command His created subjects to obey His will....or not? This discussion is not about our justification.

.

God makes the charge in His word.

Gal 3:2,3
Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

It would seem that you didn't read my entire post. I made a point of stressing that any obedience is not accomplished by our own strength, that is in the flesh but can only be accomplished by faith.

Gal 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Barney, you are the only one suggesting that anyone is promoting a justification by law concept.

Gal 5:7-9
Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.

A little leaven (doctrine of works of the law, Matt 16:12) leaveneth the whole lump.

Doctrines of works of the law are spiritual fornication with Hagar/the law (Gal 4:24).

Gal 4:21-24

Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—

We are to flee fornication with Hagar, 1Cor 6:18.
God's will is that we abstain from fornication, 1Thess 4:3.
We are to purge out therefore the old leaven (doctrines of works of the law, Matt 16:12), 1Cor 5:7.
1Cor 5:13 even says to put away from among yourself that wicked person who still preaches works of the law/fornication with Hagar.

All the above is quite off subject, regardless of the truth of them or not. Again, neither BAC nor myself are advocating or promoting that we can be justified by obeying God's laws. We know that we cannot, we have stated as much many many times. Thus your repetetive argument throughout many threads on that score and attempting to use it against those who believe that God has a right to require obedience to all His commandments is at best skewed, at worst, dishonest.

And righteousness by faith is not perfect obedience/conformity to the law, as scriptures reveal.

Now I find that quite intriguing. First, whose righteousness are we talking about? Ours, or God's? If we are discussing our righteousness, than I would agree with you. It certainly is not perfect conformity to the law. No way. Nor does it come to us by faith. Nor is it accounted to us by faith. But if it is God's righteousness
then who would dare claim that God's righteousness isn't in perfect conformity to His own laws? David, in the psalms, informs us that God's laws are righteousness! They cannot be seperated. They are synonomous. Further, God's righteousness can only come to us by faith. There is no other way. Now tell me, if one is to receive this righteousness, how could it possibly be not in conformity to the laws of God?

Rom 4:5
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Phil 3:9
and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

Exactly. Couldn't have quoted better scriptures to support my belief.
First, our faith is accounted as righteousness. Justified by the blood of Jesus, God looks upon us as if we hade never sinned. In Christ we are free from all condemnation.
Second. what does the second verse above say? those found in Him do not have their own righteousness. So whose righteousness is it that they have? Where does it come from? And how is it attained?
Answers:
1. It is God's righteousness. A righteousness that is holy. A righteousness without sin. A righteousness that is in perfect conformity to God's laws.
2. It comes from God. It comes from outside us. Not from the flesh, but through the operation of the Holy Spirit.
3. It comes by faith. Not through obedience. Not through works of the flesh. But by faith.

And what of obedience. The question you must ask yourself is not whether your obedience can justify you, we all know that it cant. You need to ask yourself does God want me to obey Him?

 

[DHC]

And what of obedience. The question you must ask yourself is not whether your obedience can justify you, we all know that it cant. You need to ask yourself does God want me to obey Him?

Hello Brakelite.

Love is not some obedience to a numerical legal formula.

Love is the expression of God's love for us, and this is a fruit of
the Holy Spirit.

2 John 1:6
And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands.
As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

We are called to Love one another Brakelite. Love and Faith is the summary
of the New Testament as far as obedience is concerned. Both are gifts from
God which we put into action. God is Love brakelite! You are called to Love
from a pure heart.

 

[brakelite]

Hello Brakelite.

Love is not some obedience to a numerical legal formula.

Love is the expression of God's love for us, and this is a fruit of
the Holy Spirit.

2 John 1:6
And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands.
As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

We are called to Love one another Brakelite. Love and Faith is the summary
of the New Testament as far as obedience is concerned. Both are gifts from
God which we put into action. God is Love brakelite! You are called to Love
from a pure heart.

Hi David. Yes I agree wholeheartedly. And I believe BAC would also. The problem though David is that many claim to love, but when push comes to shove, their profession becomes somewhat hollow. Their practice, that is their behaviour and habits and lifestyle fails to live up to their oft repeated statements, "I love you". Many claim to love, but when their lives are compared to God's standards of love, ie the Ten Commandments, their is often a disparity. As I replied to Barney, there are numerous Christians that claim to be following their Maker's will and loving their neighbour, but belie that claim by lusting after their neighbours wife, and worse Others claim to love their neighbour yet cheat on their taxes. (Yes, there is a connection). Others claim to love God yet spend more time watching TV than spending time with Him or feeding their spiritual lives. Is this not idolatry? Others claim to love yet have a major problem with their temper, getting angry over minor issues. Yet others would be aghast at any inference that they didn't love their children yet abuse their mother. People sin, that is they transgress God's laws yet claim to love God and their neighbour. This ought not be so. They are quite contradictory one from another. When Jesus said "if you love Me keep My commandments" was He not there and then equating the two concepts of law and love? Just as Paul did, and as I have seen you do perhaps though unconsciously, "Love is the fulfilling of the law".
As I read from a wise poster elsewhere, we must remember that we don't keep the law in order to love, we love in order to keep the law. This my friend is what God intended for all of mankind from the beginning. This is why He originally made man in His image. God is love, as you said. He would have it that we loved also, as the scriptures declare from Genesis to Revelation. And doing the opposite, or getting the above quote back to front, that is trying to keep the law first as opposed to loving first, was the fault of Israel in the OT. That was the faulty promise that the new covenant abolished. that law, that is the Holy Spirit of love, is now in the heart of the beleiver and he is able to then keep the law by the power of God in His life.
But let not any say that God has abolished His law. His standards will always remain the same for all eternity. Just as Jesus declared Himself. The principle difference today is not that we should obey God, but HOW

 

[spirit1st]

The laws of the old testament does not bring life ! It only brings Death 100%

No one could obey all the laws and Even our LORD died because of the Law!
Having taken All our sins upon Himself 1

He changed the law , But it was Always God eternal law He changed it too ! Love and faith 1

the flesh dies because of the law of Moses !

we Do not [our spirit] because of the law of JESUS CHRIST! It His righteousness and not our that counts!

so many are preaching there righteousness , which none have !

It by Faith in what He did NOT what we do! The carnal mind cannot accept this !

 

[brakelite]

The laws of the old testament does not bring life ! It only brings Death 100%

Hello spirit1st, note carefully what Paul says in the following...
wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid! But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
It is not the law that brings death to us. It is sin. The law is a friend, because it points out sin, that we would then recognise it, and take knowledge of our need of a Saviour. spirit1st, do you realise that the law is spiritual? See Romans 7:14.

No one could obey all the laws and Even our LORD died because of the Law!

No. Jesus died because of sin. Jesus died not because of the law, but because we transgressed the law.

Having taken All our sins upon Himself

Yes, He did. However, that hasn't meant a change in the Ten Commandments.

He changed the law , But it was Always God eternal law He changed it too ! Love and faith 1

the flesh dies because of the law of Moses !

Actually spirit1st, the whole person dies, body soul and spirit unless he knows His Saviour.

It by Faith in what He did NOT what we do! The carnal mind cannot accept this !

And that is precisely what I have been saying all along.

 

[spirit1st]

The spirit of people do not die ! They go to hell too await judgment day ! they must appear before us for judgment one day !

Our spirit goes home to NEW JERUSALEM !

this is when He went to hell to preach too those of the old testament who had died in there sins !
1Pe_3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1Pe_4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.


Paul called the ten commandments , But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones,

But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones,

Rom_7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
2Co_3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


What letter kills ?
The letter of the law ! It left no one alive !

Rom_7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
2Co_3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Because no one can live perfect lives under the ten commandments ! Except our LORD JESUS!

Rom_6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Gal_5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


All scripture is HOLY ! All of equal value 1 It all by the Holy GHOST ! It just that some of it was for a certain time and others are for the future !

That why when Jesus walked in the flesh ? He spoke about that time He lived in and also spoke about when He would become the New Testament ! It was all truth but for different times !
The old testament was mostly in part 1 The new Testament was the completion !

2Ti_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Some value His words more than other words in the bible ! But they all are of Equal value and are Truth !

We Never dump one scripture over another ! They all have there place and purpose !
also God always confirms everything to give us the correct understanding !

2Ti_3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

He willing to teach any of us who want to learn ! We just ask Him lots !

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Gal_1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1Jn_2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

As long as we follow men ? We will not get much understanding !

1Co_2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Paul was a great teacher ,Far better than me ! Yet these did not put there trust in Him 1 But seek the truth from God living word 1 to check and see if Paul was correct ? God counted this Good !

Act_17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

 

[Barny]

The disussion is about whether or not we as children should obey our Father.....whether we are obligated to obey God's laws. The discussion is about whether or not we as Christians should surrender or submit to God's authority. Does God have the authority to command His created subjects to obey His will....or not?

Hi brakelite,

I suspect the mindset you have through the doctrine you follow has caused your misunderstanding or rejection of my points.

Your claim that we're not justified by perfect obedience to the law but under grace we're expected to perfectly obey the law as evidence of righteousness/love/abiding in Christ, is merely a pretentious differentiation in order to subtly maintain the ministry of condemnation/death you support.
The old covenant and the doctrine you follow both share the same goal of righteousness by works of the law.

And yes, God does want us to obey His will.
What is His will?
John 6:40
this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

1Thess 4:3
this is the will of God, your sanctification (which we have when believing in Jesus, Heb 10:10): that you should abstain from sexual immorality (with Hagar/the law, Gal 4:24).

Note how obedience to the law is not included as part of salvation. In fact it is warned against, referred to as fornication.
The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" obeyed God's will. That thief was God's example to all that we're saved by grace.

I made a point of stressing that any obedience is not accomplished by our own strength, that is in the flesh but can only be accomplished by faith.

What you say here is consistent with what I already understood from your posts. The doctrine you follow claims that grace enables Christians to perfectly obey the law. This is really no different to the old covenant, except that grace is added to support your doctrine of works of the law.
God spoke against this in Jude 4.
ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

The doctrine you follow turns the grace of our God into lewdness/lust for fornication with Hagar (the law). The doctrine you follow says that grace enables us to do the (old covenant) works of the law for righteousness.

And whilst I agree that through our love relationship and trust in God we often do see improvement in a Christians behavior, that is not to be judged as proof whether one is righteous or not. Christians will all be at different stages of growth. There are those showing no improvement in behavior (such as the thief on the cross) to those showing very little improvement and great improvement. There are many unique and diverse circumstances and conditions amongst Christians in this imperfect physical world, that denies perfection.

And what of obedience. The question you must ask yourself is not whether your obedience can justify you, we all know that it cant. You need to ask yourself does God want me to obey Him?

Yes, God does want us to obey Him.
I quoted God's will above and believers do obey His will to believe in Jesus.

. People sin, that is they transgress God's laws yet claim to love God and their neighbour. This ought not be so. They are quite contradictory one from another. When Jesus said "if you love Me keep My commandments" was He not there and then equating the two concepts of law and love?

People can be charged with "sin" if they are under the law. Whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.
So those who can be charged with sin are those who follow doctrines, such as what you follow, that determines righteousness by obedience to the law.
Gal 2:18
if I build again those things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor/SINNER

But Christians are not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 4:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9).
Instead, our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5
Hence we cannot be charged with sin (1Pet 4:1, 1 John 3:9, Rom 8:33)

As for Jesus' commandments,see 1John 3:22,23
we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

And in this imperfect life we live, Christians forgive 7x70. We show love/grace to one another just as God did for us.

This differs greatly from the doctrine you follow which claims that without perfect obedience to the law we're lost.

But let not any say that God has abolished His law. His standards will always remain the same for all eternity. Just as Jesus declared Himself. The principle difference today is not that we should obey God, but HOW

The law is good, just and holy, Rom 7:12. The law shows the principles of God.
Therefore we establish the law by submitting to His righteousness.
Christians repented of our own dead works of righteousness and now our life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3.
Thus our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
As for our imperfect physical body, it's already dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10. Hence we do not judge our righteousness by it's behavior.

You ask how do we obey God?
The answer is given repeatedly in scripture....believe in Jesus.

 

[brakelite]

You ask how do we obey God?
The answer is given repeatedly in scripture....believe in Jesus.

And how is that different from what I have been saying all along? I'll tell you. You don't believe Jesus can free you from sin. I do. You do believe that there can be certain changes, but you don't believe that these changes are according to God's righteousness. No. Nor do you believe that God has more power than our flesh.
You are right. I believe that God's grace is powerful enough to keep us from sinning. I call that faith. You call it lewdness and fornication. I call that demonic delusion.
I believe God is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or even think. I have faith in that promise. You don't even believe that Jesus accomplished all that He came to accomplish. That is to save mankind from sin. Not just the consequences of sin Barney, but from sin.

 

[Barny]

And how is that different from what I have been saying all along? I'll tell you. You don't believe Jesus can free you from sin. I do. You do believe that there can be certain changes, but you don't believe that these changes are according to God's righteousness. No. Nor do you believe that God has more power than our flesh.
You are right. I believe that God's grace is powerful enough to keep us from sinning. I call that faith. You call it lewdness and fornication. I call that demonic delusion.
I believe God is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or even think. I have faith in that promise. You don't even believe that Jesus accomplished all that He came to accomplish. That is to save mankind from sin. Not just the consequences of sin Barney, but from sin.

You fail to understand that a believers faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
Hence we see that Christians are not under the law for righteousness (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9), so how can we be charged with transgressing it/sin?

Rom 3:19
whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

The doctrine you follow only seeks to lure others back under the law for righteousness, so that they can be charged with sin. As Rom 3:19 above shows, under the law you will be found guilty under the law.

And likewise Gal 2:18
if I build again those things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor/SINNER.

The doctrine you follow only succeeds in making you a sinner. It a false gospel of unbelief.

Note that believers are one spirit with the Lord, 1Cor 6:17.
Therefore we should flee fornication (1Cor 6:18) with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law (Gal 4:24).
Hagar is symbolic of the old covenant which is righteousness by deeds of the law (which is the doctrine you follow).

The doctrine you follow fails to see that believers are one spirit with the Lord. Believers abide in Christ. And in Christ (through his sacrifice) we're holy (Rom 11:16), sanctified (Heb 10:10), perfected (Heb 10:14) righteous and cannot sin (1John 3:9). The "cannot sin" referring to the new creation in Christ, and not our imperfect physical body which is already dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10.

Yet, in spite of this, the doctrine you follow says we're not righteous/holy/sanctified/perfected/sinless until we attain perfect obedience to the law in this physical life. In this we see the doctrine you follow has rejected what Christ's sacrifice has done for us and it has "trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace", Heb 10:29.

We see the doctrine you follow turns the grace of God into lasciviousness in that it claims that grace enables you to perfectly keep the law to become holy/sanctified/perfected/sinless in the flesh (and thus saying Christ's sacrifice failed to do this for us). This is fornicating with Hagar when you receive Christ (becoming one spirit with him) but then turn back to Hagar/works of the law to be perfected by the flesh, in spite of Christ's sacrifice.

We see several few churches in Revelations being warned against continuing on such a path. God calls on them to repent.

 

[blackbear4110]

I would like to ask what you make of Romans 2, then.
Specifically, Romans 2:7-16 (NIV)
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

May I also point out a few verses from Romans 1.
1Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3regarding his Son, who as to his earthly lifea was a descendant of David, 4and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in powerb by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. 5Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes fromc faith for his name’s sake. 6And you also are among those Gentiles who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.
...
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,e just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”f

We receive righteousness (and salvation) by faith in Jesus Christ, and believing in what He did.
Obedience comes from that faith.

It is not a matter of, if you are obedient then you will have righteousness. It is a matter of, if you have received righteousness by faith then you will have obedience which comes from that faith.
James also speaks of this, that works are a "proof" of our faith, not a means of obtaining our faith.
Jesus Himself also said that we will know them by their fruits.
So then, is not obedience a quality trait that ALL believers have, a trait that distinguishes those who have truly been born again from those who have not and are simply pretending?
Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
And the will of the Father, as has already been stated, is for us to believe in Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
But we can not forget Jesus own words in Matthew 22:34-40:

34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’c 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’d 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

It makes perfect and clear sense to me that when we love God and our neighbors with an agape love, then we will not want to sin against them in terms of the OT Mosaic Law (i.e. stealing, lying, coveting, etc. etc. etc.). If we agape-love God, then we won't want to, neither will we, have other gods or do things contrary to Who God Is (such as breaking either of the 2 commandments given by Jesus). Likewise, if/when we agape-love our neighbor, we won't want to, neither will we, steal from them, covet and lust after the things and blessings they have, commit adultery against them, etc. etc. etc.

 

[Barny]

I would like to ask what you make of Romans 2, then.
Specifically, Romans 2:7-16 (NIV)
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Hi blackbear,

Legalists will always misunderstand the words "good" and "obedience" to mean keeping the law perfectly. And they think "evil" means disobeying the law.
But they really "good" and "obedience" means believing in Jesus, which is obeying God's will, His commandment, the gospel, etc.

Regardless of whether one sins outside the law or if under the law, that means they are unrighteous. All unrighteousness is sin, as defined in 1John 5:17. So whether someone is an atheist, Hindu, Muslim, etc or whether someone is a physical Jew or an professing Christian under the law, they will all be found unrighteous and perish.

But those with the law written on their hearts are those in Christ. Jesus is our inward man who delights after the law, Rom 7:22. And our life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3. So it's the new creation in Christ that has the law written in their hearts, hence it's Christ's righteousness that is imputed to us. It's Christ who obeyed the law perfectly for us. This applies to even the likes of the thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" and yet had no works of the law to go with this.

James also speaks of this, that works are a "proof" of our faith, not a means of obtaining our faith.
Jesus Himself also said that we will know them by their fruits.
So then, is not obedience a quality trait that ALL believers have, a trait that distinguishes those who have truly been born again from those who have not and are simply pretending?

As James says, our works show our faith.
And Jesus said in John 6:29 that our works are to believe in him.
Note Gal 3:11-13 regarding the law.
that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"

The "law is not of faith".
Sadly, in spite of what God's word says, the legalists persist in their claim that works of the law is a show of faith. They do this in spite of the many warnings in scripture that such works deny God.

And yes, by their fruits you shall know them.
The fruit that Christians have is Christ the firstfruits 1Cor 15:20. Those who believe in Jesus have Christ the firstfruits.
But those professing to be Christians and yet desire to be under the law, they are in unbelief and do not have Christ the firstfruits.
Thus we know them by their fruits.

Matthew 22:34-40:
34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’c 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’d 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

It makes perfect and clear sense to me that when we love God and our neighbors with an agape love, then we will not want to sin against them in terms of the OT Mosaic Law (i.e. stealing, lying, coveting, etc. etc. etc.). If we agape-love God, then we won't want to, neither will we, have other gods or do things contrary to Who God Is (such as breaking either of the 2 commandments given by Jesus). Likewise, if/when we agape-love our neighbor, we won't want to, neither will we, steal from them, covet and lust after the things and blessings they have, commit adultery against them, etc. etc. etc.

And we do see many Christians improve in their behavior. Some (such as the thief on the cross) show no improvement in behavior, and some little or much improvement. But this is not proof of righteousness.
The thief on the cross was imputed with righteousness without any works of the law.

BTW, love forgives 7x70. And just as God showed grace/love to us, Christians likewise show grace/love to others. Thus we forgive 7x70.
But works of the law requires perfect obedience with no forgiveness given.

 

[DHC]

Galatians 3
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us. For it is written,
“Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”
14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would
receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Why does Paul refer to the law as a curse?

 

[spirit1st]

Because it killed 100% . Even our LORD JESUS died because of the law .

Only Jesus could follow it 100% . You understand ? He said if we broke one law , then we broke them all 100%

Gal_3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal_3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The law revealed we were all sinners and needed a Savior . And we needed a new birth .

He did not die to make this flesh perfect . Our flesh only dies because it a sinner . We can suffer in this weak flesh for the evil we do . if we do not repent of it .

And we can sin in our minds and maybe not even know it and get a sickness and it could even kill us if we do not do as the bible says ?

He told us a few ways we can be healed ?

Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

But not all sickness comes from sin directly . Meaning there is all kinds of bad stuff on the earth . That is here because of sins . the whole earth is corrupted and dying . This is not a healthy planet . It a dying planet .

We reap what we sow ?

Rom_8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Everything we see is changed by sin 100% .God created it forever more. But sin has changed it all and it all dying .

This has not changed , that why our flesh dies .
Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We never die [Our spirit] Joh_11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

 

[blackbear4110]

Perhaps I misunderstood what this topic was about...perhaps I have misunderstood what you have been saying...or perhaps not.

I agree with you 100% that people, whether Christ followers or not, can not become justified, can not earn the righteousness of God, and can not earn their salvation by obeying a list of rules. People, whether Christ followers or not, can not earn the free gift of salvation through works. I agree 100%!!
If by "fulfill the law" you mean that we must obey every single aspect in order to earn/gain salvation and righteousness, then I agree that Christians do not have to fulfill the law, because Christ has already done so, giving us the free gift of Salvation which can not be earned but can only be accepted through faith.
But, if "fulfill the law" means that Christians, who have already been saved and born again through faith, should still obey it in order that they might not sin against God but rather try to please Him and do what is right, then I hold my ground that all Christians should continue to obey God's laws through faith.
*I'd appreciate if someone could clarify which this topic is talking about*

God has called His people to "be Holy as I Am Holy" (1 Peter 1:13-16). We are called to walk in the Light as Children of the Light (Romans 13:11-14; Ephesians 5:1-20; 1 John 1:5-7). As Christians, we are new creatures, born again of the Spirit of God, children of God our Father.
In argument to those who say we shouldn't obey God's laws, or those who say we don't have to obey God, what I'm trying to say about "God's laws" is pretty much summed up by Romans 3:19-20, 27-31
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
...
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Don't try to earn salvation through obedience to the law. Rather, obey the law through faith in Jesus Christ. Do what is right because you want to do what is right because it is right...not because someone told you to or because you are forced to. If God's law is written on your heart, then no one will have to tell you, "Don't steal", "You're not supposed to lie!", "You can't commit adultery" etc.
I, myself, don't want to sin against my God, for He is a Holy God. Because of that, I do my best to stay away from sin. And occasionally I may ask someone, "Is this sin?" (because in my heart, if it's sin then I don't want to do it), and because I asked I get accused of being "legalistic".
I'm not worried about obeying the law to the t so I can earn my salvation. But rather, I don't want to sin against my God.
Different angle, different perspective. It changes the whole scenario.