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Chad, I already apologized for that misunderstanding.

Freedomwhatelse: "Secondly I wanted to draw your attention again to the story of Sodom and Gomorrah Genesis 19 it is very clear, cut and dry, why they were destroyed by God.
"And no matter what you say about the bible it is God breathed! and all of the people that have ever translated it in whatever version you read, they have all carefully, Prayerfully, done this and have all been Godly persons."

Your interpretation of Genesis 19 is merely a bias opinion that ignores the real sins of Sodom and Gomorrah which scripture has revealed for us. In his word, Chapter sixteen verses 49 and 50 the prophet Ezekial sheds some light on the issue: "Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her sisters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen." There is no mention of homosexuality, but he does speak of arrogance and a lack of concern for others. It is made clear in this pasage that inhospitality was the true reason for Gods wrath on Sodom and Gomorrah.

Now before you try to suggest that the word "detestable" refers to homosexuality you should let the Bible speak for itself. Proverbs 6 v 16-19 lists seven things which God considers repulsive: "There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers." Again, homosexuality is not mentioned or even hinted at in these verses. However, it is obvious when you read Genesis 19 v 1-10 that those gathered around Lot's house intended to rape the two "angels". Rape was a common accurance in ancient cizilizations and was a violent way of demonstrating power over enemies. Rape and homosexual acts are two very different things even if the abuser and the victom are both of the same sex. I need not remind you rape is an act of violence, where as homosexuality is merely an innate identity. They are incomparable.

Lets take this a step further, for those who are well versed in the Bible, and take a look at Jude 7: "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffere the punishment of eternal fire." Some versions have translated it as "strange flesh", however the origninal Greek words use were heteros sarx meaning "different flesh". Now if the writter was really referring to homosexual acts, it would have made more sense to use homos sarx, which means "same flesh". The Old Testament Pseudopigrapha has an alternative -- probably more accurate -- interpretation of the verse: "just like the wicked angels, the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah left their fist grace and gave themselves to idolatrous prostitution and the violent treatment of other people, so they have become an example by suffering the vengeance of the eternal fire."

Another mistranslation can be found in Genesis 19 v 40, and it concerns the use of the Hebrew word Enoshe: "Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom -- both young and old -- surrounded the house." The thing here is that Enoshe is not gender specific. It indicateds mortals or people. If the writer had truely wanted to specify "men", the word esh should have been used. But, since Enoshe is the word found in this passage, it would not be appropriate to assume that all the people surrounding Lot's house were male. The problem with this verse and the reason I have brought it up is that this simple mistranslation gives the the wrong impression of what the story was saying and that impresion is that the house was surrounded only by gay men. In reality it was the people of Sodom who surrounded Lot's house according to the original Hebrew.

It is true these people surrounding the house were intending on raping the visitors. Rape is not regarded as a sexual act but rather it is an act of violence. It makes no sense to condemn all heterosexual sexual acts because some straight people are rapists, and so, for the very same reason, it is illogical to condemn all homosexual sexual acts because a handful of homosexuals act abusively.

Even Jesus made no mention of the men of Sodom's and Gomorrah's sexuality. He did have this to say, "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgement than for that town." (Matt 10 v 15) Jesus inderectly suggested the sins of those two cities was inhospitality.

The traditional view is the result of mistranslations, and bias opinions. It has nothing to do with God's word. The Bible does not condemn homosexuality, but it does speak against sexual violence, arrogance, and inhospitality.

Freedomwhatelse: You have to take the whole thing or none at all! Not what pleases you and not translate it to suit your fancy or your life, it is for All of us Christians to follow.


Mymakersdaughter: "Read any books by John MscArthur, listen to his talk shows, read Chuck Swindol, listen to Focus on the Family. It is the easy way out to say the God's word was tampered with, therefore read the Greek and Hebrew then if that will help you, but I don't see you doing that."

Guess again. I'm not re-translating the Bible to suit my life. I'm looking at the text with an understanding that our modern translations aren't exactly true to the original. And I have given you some examples above with the use of both Hebrew and Greek terminology. Just because a bunch of televangelists and guys with Ph.D's say the our translations can be trusted doesn't mean they know what they are talking about. Infact, it's obvious to me that anyone who does say such a thing is not that informed. The Bible is full of contradictions, errors, forgeries, and interpolations.

Mymakersdaughter: "I too met a Godly man in Australia, and he told me that he was gay when he was younger but when he got saved, God saved him from that sin. He was happily married with 5 kids, a beautiful wife and very involved in his church. He told me that it was sin that decieved him into living a gay lifestyle."

This guy was probably not gay, but just experimented with it. He was a confused teenager, that's all. I was confused at one time too, only I pretended to be straight, but I knew deep inside I was lying to myself, God and everyone else.

I will pray that you all find the truth eventually, and that God will remove the blinders around your eyes.
 
Member
You are so well informed that these various individiuals I mentioned are indeed not televangalists. You want to justify your sin, do what you need to do to live with yourself. You live with your consequences. Quite clearly you are not so well informed as you seem to think you are, the Bible is not full of errors or contradictions but I guess that really doesn't matter to you in the least. Don't come on here all high and mighty called me a biggot. Your actions and behaviours are typical of one trying to justify their own sin.
FYI: That man I mentioned was not experimenting, this was going on for a number of years in his life prior to becoming saved.
 
Member
Mymakersdaughter~
I've listened to Chuck Swindol's radio program plenty, and I've even listened to Dr. James Dobson's, Focus on the Family, but not so much since I don't have a family, at least not one that you could call conventional. I've seen Mr. Dobson on television and these men use the media as a tool to get their religious message across. That's good enough for me, I consider them televangelists whether or not that is the technically correct. I've never seen John McAuthor's talk show but he is on television and I'm sure he expounds his religious perspective throughtout the program. That's all a televangelist is to me.

And, actually it means a great deal to me whether or not our modern versions of the Bible can be trusted or not. I want to know what God really says, not what man says God says. So I dig deeper than the surface because too many years have gone by. So much has been lost, added too, and deliberately falsified.

I'm not trying to justifiy my own sin. It is your Bible that calls homosexuality as sin, but that isn't what God has said. Infact, he has been silent about the issue. Only man has condemned it. I am fine with it.

P.S. I pretended to be straight for many, many years. The fact that this guy you know got involved in a homosexual "lifestyle" for a few years only proves that he was confused for some time about what he liked sexually, and then realized he isn't gay. But even so, it is impossible to know whether he is faking it or not. Just because he has a wife and children that doesn't mean he's not looking at men in a lustful way. He wouldn't tell you that, especially since he's supposed to be this "Godly man".

What I do know is what I've learned from my experience, and that is I can't change. I've been through a program designed to help Christians overcome homosexuality and there was no success. I put it in God's hands and trusted him and still nothing. So that is why I believe it is impossible. Those who say otherwise are lying.

Strypes~
Leviticus 18 v 22 (NIV):

"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Now how does the literal transliteration of this verse read?

"You must not sleep the sleep of a woman withat a man; it is ritually impure."

What the heck does that mean? I don't know. Many scholars believe this saying represents an idiom that has lost its meaning over time due to cultural traditions that have been forgotten. I do not believe it implies homosexuality, because the writer used the word toevah referring to the act as being "detestable" or an "abomination". The Hebrews used special words to condemn specific wicked or abminable behaviour. If the passage was referring to sexual sins, the writer would have used zimmah instead of toevah.

Palestine was full of idolatry at that time. The god of the sun, Baal and his counterpart, the fertility goddess Ashtoreth, were commonly worshipped in the area and toevah appears throughout the Law to denounce these idolatrous practices. But zimmah is used wherever immoral acts such as prostitution or rape are the subject. So it is my educated guess that the detestable acts spoken of in Leviticus 18 v 22 have something to do with idolatry not homosexuality.
 
Member
Jason as has been said you are gonna do what you can to convince yourself that what you are doing is okay and you know what ? It is, that is until the day that God will bring you to your knees. Then you will know. We have all here tried to show you the truth.And you say;
PHP:
The traditional view is the result of mistranslations, and bias opinions. It has nothing to do with God's word. The Bible does not condemn homosexuality,
Let me simply ask you, what do you read ?? Since it seems that you spend so much time trying to find errors in the english translations of the bible do you study every day the bible in it's original Hebrew and Greek than??
My, My you are a fiesty child of God aren't you at least in the sense that it will work for you.
I will continue to pray for you Jason as I do everyone here and as I already have said really it is between you and God it seems you so desarately need to be right, and it is okay until God deals with you on this. I just hope and pray that when He brings you to your knees you don't argue like this with Him. And try to justify His own word to Him, as remember that He is Almighty.
' It sounds as though maybe He has already been trying to deal with you on this matter.You need to make sure that your heart isn't hardened, that you are WILLING, and Open to what He convicts you of.'<<<<<<======And That is my opinion!!!
GOD Bless You, Love, Peace and Prayers,
 
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Michele,

Getting back to your original thread, sister, thank you for God's leading on this sensitive issue. Jason has expressed his complete stand here. Its time to shake the dust off our feet and go forward. There is alot of other ministries out there that need our energies, amen?

Your Brother In Christ Jesus!
 
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Staff Member
Clearly the man's heart is hardened, the mind deceived and the soul lost. I will not go to bed until I've prayed for you Jason as I hold myself responible for my words when I say I will pray. I will and God bless you. Eventually, hopefully you'll learn to listen and obey GOD instead of your own wisdom and man's opinions.
 
Member
Jason4Truth said:
Mymakersdaughter~
I've listened to Chuck Swindol's radio program plenty, and I've even listened to Dr. James Dobson's, Focus on the Family, but not so much since I don't have a family, at least not one that you could call conventional. I've seen Mr. Dobson on television and these men use the media as a tool to get their religious message across. That's good enough for me, I consider them televangelists whether or not that is the technically correct. I've never seen John McAuthor's talk show but he is on television and I'm sure he expounds his religious perspective throughtout the program. That's all a televangelist is to me.

And, actually it means a great deal to me whether or not our modern versions of the Bible can be trusted or not. I want to know what God really says, not what man says God says. So I dig deeper than the surface because too many years have gone by. So much has been lost, added too, and deliberately falsified.

I'm not trying to justifiy my own sin. It is your Bible that calls homosexuality as sin, but that isn't what God has said. Infact, he has been silent about the issue. Only man has condemned it. I am fine with it.

P.S. I pretended to be straight for many, many years. The fact that this guy you know got involved in a homosexual "lifestyle" for a few years only proves that he was confused for some time about what he liked sexually, and then realized he isn't gay. But even so, it is impossible to know whether he is faking it or not. Just because he has a wife and children that doesn't mean he's not looking at men in a lustful way. He wouldn't tell you that, especially since he's supposed to be this "Godly man".

What I do know is what I've learned from my experience, and that is I can't change. I've been through a program designed to help Christians overcome homosexuality and there was no success. I put it in God's hands and trusted him and still nothing. So that is why I believe it is impossible. Those who say otherwise are lying.

Strypes~
Leviticus 18 v 22 (NIV):

"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Now how does the literal transliteration of this verse read?

"You must not sleep the sleep of a woman withat a man; it is ritually impure."

What the heck does that mean? I don't know. Many scholars believe this saying represents an idiom that has lost its meaning over time due to cultural traditions that have been forgotten. I do not believe it implies homosexuality, because the writer used the word toevah referring to the act as being "detestable" or an "abomination". The Hebrews used special words to condemn specific wicked or abminable behaviour. If the passage was referring to sexual sins, the writer would have used zimmah instead of toevah.

Palestine was full of idolatry at that time. The god of the sun, Baal and his counterpart, the fertility goddess Ashtoreth, were commonly worshipped in the area and toevah appears throughout the Law to denounce these idolatrous practices. But zimmah is used wherever immoral acts such as prostitution or rape are the subject. So it is my educated guess that the detestable acts spoken of in Leviticus 18 v 22 have something to do with idolatry not homosexuality.
And, actually it means a great deal to me whether or not our modern versions of the Bible can be trusted or not. I want to know what God really says, not what man says God says. So I dig deeper than the surface because too many years have gone by. So much has been lost, added too, and deliberately falsified.

"Do not be decieved, God will not be mocked"

Not sure where that verse comes from, but I am sure of at least one thing: I cannot, and will not believe that God does not protect HIS BOOK. We have laws in America concerning slander and libel, but not ONE IOTA of those misrepresentation laws can hold a breath of a candle flame to God's denounciation of anyone messing with HIS BOOK.

Revelation 22:18 & 19

"I warn everyone who hears the words of prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words awayfrom this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

Granted, those two verses were written in reference to the specific book of Revelation... but do you suppose there's a practical reason why those are the 3rd and 4th to last verses in the bible? I believe completely that, as "prophecy" refers to the Word of God, (directly translated from the Greek meaning "sayings" of God, as spoken in Deutoronomy in Hebrew though the Hebraic word escapes me, and by our Lord himself during His temptation in the wilderness) those verses refer to all 66 books of the Canonized (sp) bible.
I believe God is big enough, and powerful enough, and good enough, and wise enough, that He could guard the truths in the Bible. The bible has been around for far too long, been through too many attempted destructions, for me to believe that God might overlook a simple change of a word, or deliberate falsification.
If even one single word in all 66 books had been played with, or deliberately falsified, I believe the bible would have been dead a long time ago. None the less, it is still called the Living Word.
 
Member
Amen Brother Bob, as well I have nothing more to say either, I am going to do as Brother Chad is doing and as I have said in other posts and pray cause it appears that this one needs to be left in His most capable hands and not mine. So dust shook off, get thee behind me santan in Jesus name, amen. And onward we go.
GOD Bless, Love, Peace, and Prayers for all,
 
Member
Flashpoint: "Granted, those two verses were written in reference to the specific book of Revelation... but do you suppose there's a practical reason why those are the 3rd and 4th to last verses in the bible?"

The practical reason the Bible is arranged in the order it is is because several men decided that would be the way it should be.


Flashpoint: "If even one single word in all 66 books had been played with, or deliberately falsified, I believe the bible would have been dead a long time ago. None the less, it is still called the Living Word."

I've pointed out a few examples of how our modern translations are not true to the original language, yet you ignore them, and throw logic and reason out the door so that your faith can remain intact.

Chad: "Eventually, hopefully you'll learn to listen and obey GOD instead of your own wisdom and man's opinions."

Hey Chad, I do listen to God's wisdom, but since you are merely a man I will choose to ignore your opinion. You aren't any closer to God than myself; and you definitely don't know God any better than myself. We are both equals in God's eyes. We are both sinners, and our only hope is in Jesus.

Freedomwhatelse: "Let me simply ask you, what do you read ?? Since it seems that you spend so much time trying to find errors in the english translations of the bible do you study every day the bible in it's original Hebrew and Greek than??"


I read the Bible almost daily. In my spare time I read books on the Gnostics and Gnostisism, Buddhism, Ancient Pagan religions and myths, the history of world religions, Bible prophesy, The New Age, Post Modernism, and Existentialism. In college I studied Philosophy, Sociology, Psychology, Art History, and English. I'm pretty knowlegeable about pre-Christian religions, and Early Christianity and the Church Fathers. Studying ancient Greek and Hebrew is a hobbie of mine, though it is still rather new for me, and the internet is a great tool in that respect.

If you wish to see for yourself whether what I've been saying is true you can look up specific Greek and Hebrew words for yourself, at http://blueletterbible.org.


Another great site I suggest is:


http://paganizingfaithofyeshua.netfirms.com/

This second site will give you some idea of where I'm coming from and what Christianity means to me. But, keep in mind this is only a doorway into my world. There is alot more going on in this mind of mine.
 
Administrator
Staff Member
Flashpoint said:
"Do not be decieved, God will not be mocked"

Not sure where that verse comes from, but I am sure of at least one thing: I cannot, and will not believe that God does not protect HIS BOOK. We have laws in America concerning slander and libel, but not ONE IOTA of those misrepresentation laws can hold a breath of a candle flame to God's denounciation of anyone messing with HIS BOOK.

Revelation 22:18 & 19

"I warn everyone who hears the words of prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words awayfrom this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

Granted, those two verses were written in reference to the specific book of Revelation... but do you suppose there's a practical reason why those are the 3rd and 4th to last verses in the bible? I believe completely that, as "prophecy" refers to the Word of God, (directly translated from the Greek meaning "sayings" of God, as spoken in Deutoronomy in Hebrew though the Hebraic word escapes me, and by our Lord himself during His temptation in the wilderness) those verses refer to all 66 books of the Canonized (sp) bible.
I believe God is big enough, and powerful enough, and good enough, and wise enough, that He could guard the truths in the Bible. The bible has been around for far too long, been through too many attempted destructions, for me to believe that God might overlook a simple change of a word, or deliberate falsification.
If even one single word in all 66 books had been played with, or deliberately falsified, I believe the bible would have been dead a long time ago. None the less, it is still called the Living Word.

Perfectly well put!
 
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Staff Member
Hey Chad, I do listen to God's wisdom, but since you are merely a man I will choose to ignore your opinion. You aren't any closer to God than myself; and you definitely don't know God any better than myself. We are both equals in God's eyes. We are both sinners, and our only hope is in Jesus.
You do not listen to His wisdom, if you did you would not being here arguing about the Bible's validity and GOD's words, and be a "gay christian" which merely does not exists whatsoever.

You have stated nothing but opinions and everyone else here stated proof by GOD. You continue to make a fool of yourself before GOD on this board and I'm sorry to say, but my conversation ends with you here. I and everyone else has proven by GOD's words Truth while you express lost opinions.
 
Member
No one has proved anything to me. You all just repeat words and verses from our modern translations that I don't trust to be true to the original manuscripts. If you want to prove anything to me, then prove to me we can trust the Bible as it is today. Not until you can present evidence that will convince me what you say is true will I be proven wrong. Hint: you can't simply rest on quoting Bible verses, you will need to do a little more research than that.

Strypes~

This is a transliteration: "You must not sleep the sleep of a woman with a man; it is ritually impure,." Transliterations are different from translations. This particular transliteration is a letter by letter literal translation of each Hebrew word in the text and thus makes for the best accurate rendition of the verse. However, the problem is it may not make much sense to a reader without the necessary knowledge to interpret the writers true intent. This happens because cultures can be so different from one another, and especially if many, many years have elapsed, the intended jist of the text can be lost. Thus, any interpretation should not be trusted as accuracy and should be understood as only a guess based on the interpreters knowledge.

You have to admit people make mistakes. You also have to admit that some mistakes made by people are deliberate. The number of times the Bible has been translated and re-translated doesn't leave me with much confidence that our modern versions have not been tampered with dishonestly or by accident. Especially when you take into account that the Early Church Fathers were not the most trustworthy of men. Plus, I can point out a hundred errors, contradictions and probable forgeries.

If you wish we can discuss this in another thread, just let me know and we can move this discussion elsewhere since this is a bit off topic.
 
Member
Jason: Hint: you can't simply rest on quoting Bible verses, you will need to do a little more research than that

Okay, I've said my piece, and it was shot down. That's fine. I'm just a man, after all, and I don't presume my words are divinely inspired. I'll admit, too, that when I'm witness to, or priveledged enough that God lets me play a small part in one of His miracles, I have a tendency to dissect the whole thing, too. Taking things at "face" or "read" value is hard for me, and I don't think I'm the only one. If I am, then I can deal with that.
But, what I really wanted to say at the end of all this (my part in this anyhow) is that mankind can go 'round and 'round about the "truth" in God's word. There are a LOT of things in the Word that are hard to accept. There are a LOT of verses in God's word that move against what might feel "natural" to us. In part, I believe that's what makes the bible different from other books. Then again, that road has been traveled in this thread, too. I'm no apologist(sp) and certainly no scholar. I'm CERTAINLY not as well-educated as you are, Jason.
However, I do know one who's far more knowledgeable than either of us. In fact, far more knowledgeable than anyone else in all creation. I guess that's plainly because He was responsible for creation.
What I suggest emphatically is, ask Him.
Take your search for truth before His throne, Jason. God will reveal His truth to you, and everyone else. I know you're a very keen-minded person, and I thank God for that gift. To have such intelligence is a wonderful blessing, and I'm glad to have seen evidence of God's peerless creation in you. That's why I would also like to suggest that you ask him to direct your gifts. My imagination overflows with the wonderful glories you could be bringing to the Father with that gift. Mind you, I'm not suggesting that you're not glorifying him now. I'm only wondering if reinventing the wheel (re-translating the Bible from scratch) isn't really extra work for you. The Master wrote the bible, and He knows the truth in its pages regardless of the version or language. Ask in Jesus holy name, and God will sort out your questions, and show you where truth exists, and where it is absent.
That said, may God look favorably on you all. This was a powerful discussion, and I know I've grown from it. I'm sure it will continue, but it's gone over my ability to keep up. May the Father reveal truth where it is hidden, and expunge untruth where it resides.
 
Member
Jason4Truth said:
I read the Bible almost daily. In my spare time I read books on the Gnostics and Gnostisism, Buddhism, Ancient Pagan religions and myths, the history of world religions, Bible prophesy, The New Age, Post Modernism, and Existentialism. In college I studied Philosophy, Sociology, Psychology, Art History, and English. I'm pretty knowlegeable about pre-Christian religions, and Early Christianity and the Church Fathers. Studying ancient Greek and Hebrew is a hobbie of mine, though it is still rather new for me, and the internet is a great tool in that respect.

If you wish to see for yourself whether what I've been saying is true you can look up specific Greek and Hebrew words for yourself, at http://blueletterbible.org.


Another great site I suggest is:


http://paganizingfaithofyeshua.netfirms.com/

This second site will give you some idea of where I'm coming from and what Christianity means to me. But, keep in mind this is only a doorway into my world. There is alot more going on in this mind of mine. [/color][/size][/font][/i][/b]
Well that about sums it up for me. You just gotta test, and test and you cannot seem to surrender, accept,and believe God's word, for what it is, you have to mix in there, Man's other Religious Ideas and fundamentals, and they did not want to accept it at face value. So you pick and choose what suits you and the only last thing that I will add to this, and I'm out! You win, if that is what you want, cause I can't get thru a hardened heart only He can , is this ; Luke 4:12 Jesus answered, "It says: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

Deuteronomy 6:13-19, Fear the Lord you God, serve him only and take your oths in his name.Do not follow other gods, the gods of the peoples around you; for the Lord your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land. ' Do not test the Lord your God as you did at Massah.' Be sure to keep the commands of the Lord your God and the stipulations and decrees he has given you. Do what is right and good in the Lord's sight, so that it may go well with you and you may go in and take over the good land that the Lord promised on oath to your forefathers, thrusting out all your enemies before you, as the Lord said.

Nuff said from me, I will continue to pray for you Jason as I do for everyone here.
Yours thru Him:rose:

May the Lord Bless you, Love, Peace and an abundance of Prayers,

p.s. Head knowledge is one thing living it it where you get it!!
 
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Stypes~

You missed or ignored the point I was making. I'm well aware that the Latin Vulgate is not a "modern" version, per se, it is a translation, however, like all the others - untrustworthy. If you wish to discuss this particular translation, it was written by Jerome, secretary of Pope Damasus I in the fourth century C.E. It was found to be littered with errors when the first entire Greek New Testament was printed in 1516.

Freedomwhatelse~

You assume too much. I never said anything about mixing anything, particularly religious beliefs. All I said was I've read a variety of topics, that's all. Knowledge never hurt anyone. Proverbs attests to that.

P.S. Thanks for everybodies prayers. I pray for you all too.
Praise be to the :sun: of God.
 
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Staff Member
Prophecieis fulfilled in the same bible that you claim is no longer valid
http://www.talkjesus.com/forumdisplay.php?f=38

Scientific Facts
http://www.talkjesus.com/forumdisplay.php?f=36

Please refrain from making yoruself seem all high and mighty and right about the bible. You couldnt' be more wrong than you are and believe me, if you remain stubborn and hardened you will be punished for spreading false claims about the Word of GOD. If I were you, I'd stop talking and start receiving wisdom from GOD first and foremost. Don't assume you got it all figured out, because you got it all wrong.
 
Member
Chad~

These Biblical "prophesies" and scientific "evidence" you were kind enough to direct my attention too, is not new to me. I've read them all before in books written by Hal Lindsay, and Grant R. Jeffery. Even now I've got several books on my shelves I could easily refer to. I even watch Jack Van Impe on a regular basis. I also own books that contradict the so-called "proofs". Nontheless, this is something we must sort out individually for ourselves. If you choose to believe the Bible is exactly what it claims to be, then fine. I just hope that it is an informed decision. May I ask you this: have you looked into what the other side says about this? I mean really looked into it by reading the works of sceptics, and not just accepting what Christian writers are saying like someone who prefers to be lead. As for myself, knowing what I have come to know over the past few years has hampered my ability to maintain any belief that the Bible is the "Living Word of God". I understand that you have your reasons for believing as you do, but you should also come to grips with the fact that my reasons for disbelief are just as valid. Infact, you aren't even aware of what my reasons are. You think it's as simply because I can't abide by God's commandments. You are entitled to think that, though you are wrong. The truth runs much deeper than that, but I know you aren't ready to know what they are. If you ever are ready, I'm sure God will reveal them to you.

I pray to God, just like you do. I love God, just like you do. The only difference between us is that I think his supposed words have been corupted over the years, and in ways you aren't willing to consider. If you wish to claim the legitimacy of the Bible then that is your right. I have just as much of a right to believe otherwise, and am just as confident about my decision as you are about yours. Though I do feel I'm more informed, since I've read and studied it from both fundamentalist and unorthodoxed perspectives. Seeings how you are so positive that the Bible is inerrant I must assume you only know the one side of the story, otherwise you wouldn't be as zealous in upholding your conservative Christian dogmas. If I'm wrong, I apologize, and would be interested in knowing the names of some of the authors you've read, whose opinions differ from that of your own.

I will abide by your request, just so long as you practice what you preach. Fair is fair right? Since you asked me to refrain from making myself seem all high and mighty. You should do the same. However, I don't think either one of us can follow through with this, since we are both equally passionate.
 
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No Christian should waste time discussing or try to prove scripture to a depraved sexually pervesed mindset,the strong demons are in strong control,but one thing we can do is pray for them,thay are definately lost unless they confess the Lord and change ways 2Cor 4:4
 
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Couple of three comments here.

Homosexuality is found in all creatures. It is not limited to humanity and occurs across the spectrum of other animals.

There is solid research showing significant differences in brain structure between homosexuals and heterosexuals as well as considerable difference in such things as scent receptors between homosexuals and heterosexuals and hormone levels as well.

Our job as Christians is to love folk and leave the condemnations to God (where they belong.)

As far as Exodus is concerned their methods are questionable, their results arguable and if I may quote

...Perhaps the most famous case study in the failure of reparative therapy is that of two founders of Exodus International, Michael Bussee and Gary Cooper, who helped start Exodus in 1976 and worked to "convert" gay people for three years, until they fell in love and left Exodus in 1979. In 1982, they held a marriage ceremony and lived together until Cooper died nine years later.

"The desires never go away," Bussee said. "After dealing with hundreds of people, I have not met one who went from gay to straight. Even if you manage to alter someone's sexual behavior, you cannot change their true sexual orientation."


Kiwimac
 
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