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Thank You Mymakersdaughter, You can be rest assured that I will be telling others about this and I thank you for posting this. The sacrement of Marriage means very much to me as does my Fathers word, and will!!
GOD Bless,Love, Peace and Prayers,
from a Sista' Christian Canuck!
 
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[edited by Admin to remove advertisements]

Admin note: do not SPAM or advertise on this site. This is your last warning. Read the rules, thank you.
 
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mymakersdaughter said:
This is a time when our country is in the process of defining marriage. We need to stand together strong, making ourselves heard.
There is a petition that needs to be signed for us to be heard. Please read it and consider it. We can't fight this alone.
http://www.enshrinemarriage.ca/english/intro.aspx
Thank you, michele and freedomwhatelse,

For your stand here at Talk Jesus. Marriage is God's work between one man and one woman. Its Christ centered, amen? Canada is a wonderful country, especially Vancouver.
Question, what is canuck? Canadian luck? lol

We are still rubbing the bruise on the definition of marriage in San Francisco where the mayor flip flopped after he passed same sex marriage and then the government reversed it. We don't know which way the mayor is going on this depending on who is holding the reelection tag. My brother in law and family just immigrated to Toronto and are going to reside in Guelph where he is hoping to take up golf. We will pass your thread on to him to review as well.

I am sorry, brother Johnson111, I don't see the connection from your post to the thread here.

Your brother in Christ Jesus!
 
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Thanks for your support for keeping marriage the way God intended.
Canuck is Canadian slang derived from a hockey term. We Canadians' have no need for luck...He is on our side. :smile:
 
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Christians giving Christians a bad name.

How bigotted? If two people who love each other (no matter sexual orientation) wish to get married nothing should stop them. I for one am happy that the Supreme Court feels that the current definition of marriage is unconstitutional. Homosexuals have been regarded as secondary citizens for far too long, so I support the move to allow gays and lesbians across Canada to marry. To deny them this right doesn't demonstate Jesus' love, but does just the opposite. We are here, we are queer, so learn to live with it.
 
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Jason, if you came here to speak against Truth, consider this a first/last warning. GOD clearly speaks against homosexuality in the Bible. "Truth" doesn't revolve around your opinion based on your own man made wisdom.

1 Corinthians 6:9
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders

Deuteronomy 23:17
17 No Israelite man or woman is to become a shrine prostitute.

1 Kings 14:24
24 There were even male shrine prostitutes in the land; the people engaged in all the detestable practices of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites.

You cannot be a gay Christian. You either obey GOD according to HIS commandments or you perish. Don't be deceived, nor deceive others
 
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This what brother Chad has said is true. And thus were the reason for the destuction of Sodom and Gommorah. Where do you think the term Sodomy comes from??? I don't care what you choose to do behind close doors, in that it isn't my place to judge, but it is my place to let the truth be known. Chad quoted a few of the verses, also to add to it right at the begining;
Genesis 2:24
For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
All of the answers to our wounderings can be found in God's living breathing word, we should not trust man's mind and teaching we should be finding out in God's word what His will for us is.
GOD Bless, Love, Peace, and Prayers,
 
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"You cannot be a gay Christian."

Thousands of gay Christians would disagree with you. The Bible even disagrees with you. I believe it says, "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death." That applies to all people who confess Jesus as their Lord. Heterosexuals are no better than homosexuals, we all have/do "sin".

"Jason, if you came here to speak against Truth, consider this a first/last warning."

You've got me all wrong, Chad. I love truth more than anything. What I dispise most is willful ignorance. It is not my goal to offend you. I only wish to enlighten. Much of what we believe about things comes from what others have told us. If we never question the information presented to us, there's a good chance a fair bit of that information will be false, but we would never know it, so long as we accept it without further inquiry. Some peopple are quite satisfied living in ignorance, while others need to get to the bottom of things. I am one of the later. It might come as a surprise to you, but your translations aren't as inerrant as you probably believe. Afterall, they are only translations.

The meaning of words have been lost or changed because the original test is not clearly understood or there was no comparable word in English to describe the Hebrew or Greek expression. Some translations have seemingly disregarded the clear text in the original language in order to perpetuate traditional points of view. Chad, since you mentioned 1 Corinthians 6 v 9, I will use this werse as an example to demonstrate what I've been saying. The New International Version puts it this way:


Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders...



This translation has combined two words from the Greek and mistranslated them as "homosexual". The first word is malakoi, which has a double meaning. The first literal meaning of malakoi in English is "softness" as it applies to touch. Secondly, the word is used to describe someone who is "weak willed", as it is in this case. In it's proper use it should be applied to someone who is an "addict". You might be asking yourself, if this is true how did it come to be so badly mistranslated? The Latin Vulgate translated malakoi to the word mollis which has the exact same meaning as malakoi , only later mollis became a slang expression that referred to men who wore silky refined clothing (soft to the touch). This led to the King James Version translating it "effeminate". Another translation of this word used "sissie". There are others still, like "lecherous", and "voluptuous". Obviously, judging from the various translations there has been some confusion by the translators and Bibleical scholars.


The second word is arsenokoitai. It's used only twice in the New Testament (1 Corinthians 6 v 9; 1 Timothy 1 v 10). This word doesn't appear anywhere in Greek homoserotic literature (which there is an abundance of in ancient Greece) so it is doubtful Paul would have chosen such an obscure word if he was intending to mean homosexual relations when there were others that would have made his intended thought more clear. Literally translated, arsenokoitai means "man-active-bed'. The meanis is questionable. If it is referring to male prostitutes who sell their bodies to men and Paul was intending or condemning that particular group of homosexuals, then he'd have probably chosen the word arenokoitai, meaning "man-passive-bed", which would indicate a male prostitute since they take the passive role sexually.

Now let us look at Deuteronomy 23 v 17 and 1 Kings 14 v 24. The shrine prostitutes were not homosexuals. The word used here is kawdashe and it refers to male/female temple cult prostitutes. These people were active in the worship of the pagan fertility gods and goddesses of ancient Palestine. This was not a condemnation of homosexuals, but of people who sold their bodies in service to idols.

I'm willing to discuss this further with anyone.

"GOD clearly speaks against homosexuality in the Bible. "Truth" doesn't revolve around your opinion based on your own man made wisdom."

I hope you can see that the Bible isn't at all clear and our translations might be completely wrong and even delibrately falsified. But I'm probably asking too much.

Now I'll just wait to see if freedom of speech can prevail in this environment.
 
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I will pray for you Jason. You are deceived by what man has told you not by what GOD has told you. GOD did not create people to be gay. If that were so, he would have made only one single sex instead of two. Also, for the verse "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death." you got that all misinterpreted.

Romans 8

Life Through the Spirit

1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.


5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man[e] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation–but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it.



Footnotes:
  1. Romans 8:1 Some later manuscripts Jesus, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit, Romans 8:3 Or the flesh; also in verses 4, 5, 8, 9, 12 and 13 Romans 8:3 Or man, for sin Romans 8:3 Or in the flesh Romans 8:6 Or mind set on the flesh
  2. Romans 8:7 Or the mind set on the flesh
Please take a look, carefully study and ask GOD for wisdom, for your sake anyway. No one can judge you but GOD Himself, therefore be careful what you believe. The world will deceive you and throw lies in your face with excuses and misinterpretations. The above is clearly what GOD says in the Book of Life, not book of man.
 
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Matthew Henry's commentary...

The apostle, having fully explained the doctrine of justification, and pressed the necessity of sanctification, in this chapter applies himself to the consolation of the Lord's people. Ministers are helpers of the joy of the saints. "Comfort ye, comfort ye my people," so runs our commission, Isa. 40:1. It is the will of God that his people should be a comforted people. And we have here such a draught of the gospel charter, such a display of the unspeakable privileges of true believers, as may furnish us with abundant matter for joy and peace in believing, that by all these immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation. Many of the people of God have, accordingly, found this chapter a well-spring of comfort to their souls, living and dying, and have sucked and been satisfied from these breasts of consolation, and with joy drawn water out of these wells of salvation. There are three things in this chapter: I. The particular instances of Christians' privileges (v. 1-28). II. The ground thereof laid in predestination (v. 29, 30). III. The apostle's triumph herein, in the name of all the saints (v. 31 to the end).

Verses 1-9

I. The apostle here beings with one signal privilege of true Christians, and describes the character of those to whom it belongs: There is therefore now no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus, v. 1. This is his triumph after that melancholy complaint and conflict in the foregoing chapter-sin remaining, disturbing, vexing, but, blessed be God, not ruining. The complaint he takes to himself, but humbly transfers the comfort with himself to all true believers, who are all interested in it. 1. It is the unspeakable privilege and comfort of all those that are in Christ Jesus that there is therefore now no condemnation to them. He does not say, "There is no accusation against them," for this there is; but the accusation is thrown out, and the indictment quashed. He does not say, "There is nothing in them that deserves condemnation," for this there is, and they see it, and own it, and mourn over it, and condemn themselves for it; but it shall not be their ruin. He does not say, "There is no cross, no affliction to them or no displeasure in the affliction," for this there may be; but no condemnation. They may be chastened of the Lord, but not condemned with the world. Now this arises from their being in Christ Jesus; by virtue of their union with him through faith they are thus secured. They are in Christ Jesus, as in their city of refuge, and so are protected from the avenger of blood. He is their advocate, and brings them off. There is therefore no condemnation, because they are interested in the satisfaction that Christ by dying made to the law. In Christ, God does not only not condemn them, but is well pleased with them, Mt. 17:5.

2. It is the undoubted character of all those who are so in Christ Jesus as to be freed from condemnation that they walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. Observe, The character is given from their walk, not from any one particular act, but from their course and way. And the great question is, What is the principle of the walk, the flesh or the spirit, the old or the new nature, corruption or grace? Which of these do we mind, for which of these doe we make provision, by which of these are we governed, which of these do we take part with?

II. This great truth, thus laid down, he illustrates in the following verses; and shows how we come by this great privilege, and how we may answer this character.

1. How we come by these privileges-the privilege of justification, that there is no condemnation to us—the privilege of sanctification, that we walk after the Spirit, and not after the flesh, which is no less our privilege than it is our duty. How comes it about?

(1.) The law could not do it, v. 3. It could neither justify nor sanctify, neither free us from the guilt nor from the power of sin, having not the promises either of pardon or grace. The law made nothing perfect: It was weak. Some attempt the law made towards these blessed ends, but, alas! it was weak, it could not accomplish them: yet that weakness was not through any defect in the law, but through the flesh, through the corruption of human nature, by which we became incapable either of being justified or sanctified by the law. We had become unable to keep the law, and, in case of failure, the law, as a covenant of works, made no provision, and so left us as it found us. Or understand it of the ceremonial law; that was a plaster not wide enough for the wound, it could never take away sin, Heb. 10:4.

(2.) The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus does it, v. 2. The covenant of grace made with us in Christ is a treasury of merit and grace, and thence we receive pardon and a new nature, are freed from the law of sin and death, that is, both from the guilt and power of sin-from the course of the law, and the dominion of the flesh. We are under another covenant, another master, another husband, under the law of the Spirit, the law that gives the Spirit, spiritual life to qualify us for eternal. The foundation of this freedom is laid in Christ's undertaking for us, of which he speaks v. 3, God sending his own Son. Observe, When the law failed, God provided another method. Christ comes to do that which the law could not do. Moses brought the children of Israel to the borders of Canaan, and then died, and left them there; but Joshua did that which Moses could not do, and put them in possession of Canaan. Thus what the law could not do Christ did. The best exposition of this verse we have Heb. 10:1-10. To make the sense of the words clear, which in our translation is a little intricate, we may read it thus, with a little transposition:—God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and a sacrifice for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, which the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, etc., v. 4. Observe, [1.] How Christ appeared: In the likeness of sinful flesh. Not sinful, for he was holy, harmless, undefiled; but in the likeness of that flesh which was sinful. He took upon him that nature which was corrupt, though perfectly abstracted from the corruptions of it. His being circumcised, redeemed, baptized with John's baptism, bespeaks the likeness of sinful flesh. The bitings of the fiery serpents were cured by a serpent of brass, which had the shape, through free from the venom, of the serpents that bit them. It was great condescension that he who was God should be made in the likeness of flesh; but much greater that he who was holy should be made in the likeness of sinful flesh. And for sin,—here the best Greek copies place the comma. God sent him, en homoioµmati sarkos hamartias, kai peri hamartias—in the likeness of sinful flesh, and as a sacrifice for sin. The Septuagint call a sacrifice for sin no more than peri hamartias—for sin; so Christ was a sacrifice; he was sent to be so, Heb. 9:26.

[2.] What was done by this appearance of his: Sin was condemned, that is, God did therein more than ever manifest his hatred of sin; and not only so, but for all that are Christ's both the damning and the domineering power of sin is broken and taken out of the way. He that is condemned can neither accuse nor rule; his testimony is null, and his authority null. Thus by Christ is sin condemned; though it live and remain, its life in the saints is still but like that of a condemned malefactor. it was by the condemning of sin that death was disarmed, and the devil, who had the power of death, destroyed. The condemning of sin saved the sinner from condemnation. Christ was made sin for us (2 Co. 5:21), and, being so made, when he was condemned sin was condemned in the flesh of Christ, condemned in the human nature: So was sanctification made to divine justice, and way made for the salvation of the sinner.

[3.] The happy effect of this upon us (v. 4): That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us. Both in our justification and in our sanctification, the righteousness of the law if fulfilled. A righteousness of satisfaction for the breach of the law is fulfilled by the imputation of Christ's complete and perfect righteousness, which answers the utmost demands of the law, as the mercy-seat was as long and as broad as the ark. A righteousness of obedience to the commands of the law is fulfilled in us, when by the Spirit the law of love is written upon the heart, and that love is the fulfilling of the law, ch. 13:10. Though the righteousness of the law is not fulfilled by us, yet, blessed be God, it is fulfilled in us; there is that to be found upon and in all true believers which answers the intention of the law. Us who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. This is the description of all those that are interested in this privilege-they act from spiritual and not from carnal principles; as for others, the righteousness of the law will be fulfilled upon them in their ruin. Now,

2. Observe how we may answer to this character, v. 5, etc.
(1.) By looking to our minds. How may we know whether we are after the flesh or after the Spirit? By examining what we mind, the things of the flesh or the things of the spirit. Carnal pleasure, worldly profit and honour, the things of sense and time, are the things of the flesh, which unregenerate people mind. The favour of God, the welfare of the soul, the concerns of eternity, are the things of the Spirit, which those that are after the Spirit do mind. The man is as the mind is. The mind is the forge of thoughts. As he thinketh in his heart, so is he, Prov. 23:7. Which way do the thoughts move with most pleasure? On what do they dwell with most satisfaction? The mind is the seat of wisdom. Which way go the projects and contrivances? whether are we more wise for the world or for our souls? phronousi ta teµs sarkos—they savour the things of the flesh; so the word is rendered, Mt. 16:23. It is a great matter what our savour is, what truths, what tidings, what comforts, we do most relish, and are most agreeable to us. Now, to caution us against this carnal-mindedness, he shows the great misery and malignity of it, and compares it with the unspeakable excellency and comfort of spiritual-mindedness.

[1.] It is death, v. 6. It is spiritual death, the certain way to eternal death. It is the death of the soul; for it is its alienation from God, in union and communion with whom the life of the soul consists. A carnal soul is a dead soul, dead as a soul can die. She that liveth in pleasure is dead (1 Tim. 5:6), not only dead in law as guilty, but dead in state as carnal. Death includes all misery; carnal souls are miserable souls. But to be spiritually minded, phroneµma tou pneumatos—a spiritual savour (the wisdom that is from above, a principle of grace) is life and peace; it is the felicity and happiness of the soul. The life of the soul consists in its union with spiritual things by the mind. A sanctified soul is a living soul, and that life is peace; it is a very comfortable life. All the paths of spiritual wisdom are paths of peace. It is life and peace in the other world, as well as in this. Spiritual-mindedness is eternal life and peace begun, and an assuring earnest of the perfection of it.

[2.] It is enmity to God (v. 7), and this is worse than the former. The former speaks the carnal sinner a dead man, which is bad; but this speaks him a devil of a man. It is not only an enemy, but enmity itself. It is not only the alienation of the soul from God, but the opposition of the soul against God; it rebels against his authority, thwarts his design, opposes his interest, spits in his face, spurns at his bowels. Can there be a greater enmity? An enemy may be reconciled, but enmity cannot. How should this humble us for and warn us against, carnal-mindedness! Shall we harbour and indulge that which is enmity to God our creator, owner, ruler, and benefactor? To prove this, he urges that it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. The holiness of the law of God, and the unholiness of the carnal mind, are as irreconcilable as light and darkness. The carnal man may, by the power of divine grace, be made subject to the law of God, but the carnal mind never can; this must be broken and expelled. See how wretchedly the corrupt will of man is enslaved to sin; as far as the carnal mind prevails, there is no inclination to the law of God; therefore wherever there is a change wrought it is by the power of God's grace, not by the freedom of man's will. Hence he infers (v. 8), Those that are in the flesh cannot please God. Those that are in a carnal unregenerate state, under the reigning power of sin, cannot do the things that please God, wanting grace, the pleasing principle, and an interest in Christ, the pleasing Mediator. The very sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination, Prov. 15:8. Pleasing God is our highest end, of which those that are in the flesh cannot but fall short; they cannot please him, nay, they cannot but displease him. We may know our state and character,
(2.) By enquiring whether we have the Spirit of God and Christ, or not (v. 9): You are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit. This expresses states and conditions of the soul vastly different. All the saints have flesh and spirit in them; but to be in the flesh and to be in the Spirit are contrary. It denotes our being overcome and subdued by one of these principles. As we say, A man is in love, or in drink, that is, overcome by it. Now the great question is whether we are in the flesh or in the Spirit; and how may we come to know it? Why, by enquiring whether the Spirit of God dwell in us. The Spirit dwelling in us is the best evidence of our being in the Spirit, for the indwelling is mutual (1 Jn. 4:16): Dwelleth in God, and God in him. The Spirit visits many that are unregenerate with his motions, which they resist and quench; but in all that are sanctified he dwells; there he resides and rules. He is there as a man at his own house, where he is constant and welcome, and has the dominion. Shall we put this question to our own hearts, Who dwells, who rules, who keeps house, here? Which interest has the ascendant? To this he subjoins a general rule of trial: If any man has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. To be Christ's (that is, to be a Christian indeed, one of his children, his servants, his friends, in union with him) is a privilege and honour which many pretend to that have no part nor lot in the matter. None are his but those that have his Spirit; that is,

[1.] That are spirited as he was spirited-are meek, and lowly, and humble, and peaceable, and patient, and charitable, as he was. We cannot tread in his steps unless we have his spirit; the frame and disposition of our souls must be conformable to Christ's pattern.

[2.] That are actuated and guided by the Holy Spirit of God, as a sanctifier, teacher, and comforter. Having the Spirit of Christ is the same with having the Spirit of God to dwell in us. But those two come much to one; for all that are actuated by the Spirit of God as their rule are conformable to the spirit of Christ as their pattern. Now this description of the character of those to whom belongs this first privilege of freedom from condemnation is to be applied to all the other privileges that follow.

Verses 10-16

In these verses the apostle represents two more excellent benefits, which belong to true believers.

I. Life. The happiness is not barely a negative happiness, not to be condemned; but it is positive, it is an advancement to a life that will be the unspeakable happiness of the man (v. 10, 11): If Christ be in you. Observe, If the Spirit be in us, Christ is in us. He dwells in the heart by faith, Eph. 3:17. Now we are here told what becomes of the bodies and souls of those in whom Christ is.

1. We cannot say but that the body is dead; it is a frail, mortal, dying body, and it will be dead shortly; it is a house of clay, whose foundation is in the dust. The life purchased and promised does not immortalize the body in its present state. It is dead, that is, it is appointed to die, it is under a sentence of death: as we say one that is condemned is a dead man. In the midst of life we are in death: be our bodies ever so strong, and healthful, and handsome, they are as good as dead (Heb. 11:12), and this because of sin. It is sin that kills the body. This effect the first threatening has (Gen. 3:19): Dust thou art. Methinks, were there no other argument, love to our bodies should make us hate sin, because it is such an enemy to our bodies. The death even of the bodies of the saints is a remaining token of God's displeasure against sin.

2. But the spirit, the precious soul, that is life; it is now spiritually alive, nay, it is life. Grace in the soul is its new nature; the life of the saint lies in the soul, while the life of the sinner goes no further than the body. When the body dies, and returns to the dust, the spirit if life; not only living and immortal, but swallowed up of life. Death to the saints is but the freeing of the heaven-born spirit from the clog and load of this body, that it may be fit to partake of eternal life. When Abraham was dead, yet God was the God of Abraham, for even then his spirit was life, Mt. 22:31, 32. See Ps. 49:15. And this because of righteousness. The righteousness of Christ imputed to them secures the soul, the better part, from death; the righteousness of Christ inherent in them, the renewed image of God upon the soul, preserves it, and, by God's ordination, at death elevates it, and improves it, and makes it meet to partake of the inheritance of the saints in light. The eternal life of the soul consists in the vision and fruition of God, and both assimilating, for which the soul is qualified by the righteousness of sanctification. I refer to Ps. 17:15, I will behold thy face in righteousness.

3. There is a life reserved too for the poor body at last: He shall also quicken your mortal bodies, v. 11. The Lord is for the body; and though at death it is cast aside as a despised broken vessel, a vessel in which is no pleasure, yet God will have a desire to the work of his hands (Job 14:15), will remember his covenant with the dust, and will not lose a grain of it; but the body shall be reunited to the soul, and clothed with a glory agreeable to it. Vile bodies shall be newly fashioned, Phil. 3:21; 1 Co. 15:42. Two great assurances of the resurrection of the body are mentioned:—(1.) The resurrection of Christ: He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken. Christ rose as the head, and first-fruits, and forerunner of all the saints, 1 Co. 15:20. The body of Christ lay in the grave, under the sin of all the elect imputed, and broke through it. O grave, then, where is thy victory? It is in the virtue of Christ's resurrection that we shall rise. (2.) The indwelling of the Spirit. The same Spirit that raiseth the soul now will raise the body shortly: By his Spirit that dwelleth in you. The bodies of the saints are the temples of the Holy Ghost, 1 Co. 3:16; 6:19. Now, though these temples may be suffered for awhile to lie in ruins, yet they shall be rebuilt. The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, shall be repaired, whatever great mountains may be in the way. The Spirit, breathing upon dead and dry bones, will make them live, and the saints even in their flesh shall see God. Hence the apostle by the way infers how much it is our duty to walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit, v. 12, 13. Let not our life be after the wills and motions of the flesh. Two motives he mentions here:—[1.] We are not debtors to the flesh, neither by relation, gratitude, nor any other bond or obligation. We owe no suit nor service to our carnal desires; we are indeed bound to clothe, and feed, and take care of the body, as a servant to the soul in the service of God, but no further. We are not debtors to it; the flesh never did us so much kindness as to oblige us to serve it. It is implied that we are debtors to Christ and to the Spirit: there we owe our all, all we have and all we can do, by a thousand bonds and obligations. Being delivered from so great a death by so great a ransom, we are deeply indebted to our deliverer. See 1 Co. 6:19, 20. [2.] Consider the consequences, what will be at the end of the way. Here are life and death, blessing and cursing, set before us. If you live after the flesh, you shall die; that is, die eternally. It is the pleasing, and serving, and gratifying, of the flesh, that are the ruin of souls; that is, the second death. Dying indeed is the soul's dying: the death of the saints is but a sleep. But, on the other hand, You shall live, live and be happy to eternity; that is the true life: If you through the Spirit mortify the deeds of the body, subdue and keep under all fleshly lusts and affections, deny yourselves in the pleasing and humouring of the body, and this through the Spirit; we cannot do it without the Spirit working it in us, and the Spirit will not do it without our doing our endeavour. So that in a word we are put upon this dilemma, either to displease the body or destroy the soul.

II. The Spirit of adoption is another privilege belonging to those that are in Christ Jesus, v. 14-16.

1. All that are Christ's are taken into the relation of Children to God, v. 14. Observe, (1.) Their property: They are led by the Spirit of God, as a scholar in his learning is led by his tutor, as a traveller in his journey is led by his guide, as a soldier in his engagements is led by his captain; not driven as beasts, but led as rational creatures, drawn with the cords of a man and the bands of love. It is the undoubted character of all true believers that they are led by the Spirit of God. Having submitted themselves in believing to his guidance, they do in their obedience follow that guidance, and are sweetly led into all truth and all duty.

(2.) Their privilege: They are the sons of God, received into the number of God's children by adoption, owned and loved by him as his children.

2. And those that are the sons of God have the Spirit,
(1.) To work in them the disposition of children.
[1.] You have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear, v. 15. Understand it, First, Of that spirit of bondage which the Old-Testament church was under, by reason of the darkness and terror of that dispensation. The veil signified bondage, 2 Co. 3:15. Compare v. 17. The Spirit of adoption was not then so plentifully poured out as now; for the law opened the wound, but little of the remedy. Now you are not under that dispensation, you have not received that spirit. Secondly, Of that spirit of bondage which many of the saints themselves were under at their conversion, under the convictions of sin and wrath set home by the Spirit; as those in Acts 2:37, the jailer (Acts 16:30), Paul, Acts 9:6. Then the Spirit himself was to the saints a spirit of bondage: "But," says the apostle, "with you this is over." "God as a Judge," says Dr. Manton, "by the spirit of bondage, sends us to Christ as Mediator, and Christ as Mediator, by the spirit of adoption, sends us back again to God as a Father." Though a child of God may come under fear of bondage again, and may be questioning his sonship, yet the blessed Spirit is not again a spirit of bondage, for then he would witness an untruth.

[2.] But you have received the Spirit of adoption. Men may give a charter of adoption; but it is God's prerogative, when he adopts, to give a spirit of adoption-the nature of children. The Spirit of adoption works in the children of God a filial love to God as a Father, a delight in him, and a dependence upon him, as a Father. A sanctified soul bears the image of God, as the child bears the image of the father. Whereby we cry, Abba, Father. Praying is here called crying, which is not only an earnest, but a natural expression of desire; children that cannot speak vent their desires by crying. Now, the Spirit teaches us in prayer to come to God as a Father, with a holy humble confidence, emboldening the soul in that duty. Abba, Father. Abba is a Syriac word signifying father or my father; pateµr, a Greek work; and why both, Abba, Father? Because Christ said so in prayer (Mk. 14:36), Abba, Father: and we have received the Spirit of the Son. It denotes an affectionate endearing importunity, and a believing stress laid upon the relation. Little children, begging of their parents, can say little but Father, Father, and that is rhetoric enough. It also denotes that the adoption is common both to Jews and Gentiles: the Jews call him Abba in their language, the Greeks may call him pateµr in their language; for in Christ Jesus there is neither Greek nor Jew.

(2.) To witness to the relation of children, v. 16. The former is the work of the Spirit as a Sanctifier; this as a Comforter. Beareth witness with our spirit. Many a man has the witness of his own spirit to the goodness of his state who has not the concurring testimony of the Spirit. Many speak peace to themselves to whom the God of heaven does not speak peace. But those that are sanctified have God's Spirit witnessing with their spirits, which is to be understood not of any immediate extraordinary revelation, but an ordinary work of the Spirit, in and by the means of comfort, speaking peace to the soul. This testimony is always agreeable to the written word, and is therefore always grounded upon sanctification; for the Spirit in the heart cannot contradict the Spirit in the word. The Spirit witnesses to none the privileges of children who have not the nature and disposition of children.
 
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Jason, you have no clue about truth plain and simple. You have never studied God's word or have been under a teacher of God's word. 2% of the population in Canada consider themselves as gay or lesbian...does it really make sense to change the law for 2%, the majority rule in this country. The courts have no business changing the law for all the people, it's the elected officials. Why are you so hetrophobic? Are you afraid of hetrosexuals?
I sure hope you read Chad's post.
 
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Really you know the matter lies between you and God and it really should not even be our business to know what you choose to do behind closed doors. Which brings me to my point. Should anyone know that anyone is a homosexual, or a heterosexual?? The Sanctity of marriage is another seperate matter and that is quite defined in the word of God even with translations of words.
I don't go around flaunting what type of person that I choose to have in my bedroom, it quite frankly is no ones business except between myself that person and God. So this should not be something because of people wanting to expose their differntiallity and uniqueness, that others need to be made aware of. That like it is for me should be between you the person you are with and God and shouldn't be letting others know what you like in the private confines of your bedroom.
And the other issue that I wanted to bring up is that once we are born again, we are to die to the flesh, take up our cross, and we also will become a new creature in Christ Jesus, not that we won't sin and when we do we will be convicted of it, but we will want to give up of the old sinful nature. My example here is an alcoholic, if they have been reborn, chances are that they are at one point going to be conicted of it by the Lord and have to, want to quit. Not something that can be done by self will. It definately requires submission to God and the practice of submission to God and keeping Him priority in your life that is true with any addiction. And also anything that we put ahead of, or greater importance of than Our Father and Our Saviour is what we are worshipping, and there are no other Gods, not booze, not sex, not money, not power, not control, speaking of which the fruit of the Spirit, self~contol is given us from God the vine.
I imagine that I have said enough, and will leave it at that. No Judgements, it is of no importance to me what you chose to do in your private life, I choose to live privately and publically to be an honorable, worshipping woman of My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ who's blood he volunteered to shed for my transgressions. For that I am so Thankful !!!
GOD Bless,Love, Peace, and Prayers,
 
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Jason4Truth said:
"You cannot be a gay Christian."

Thousands of gay Christians would disagree with you. The Bible even disagrees with you. I believe it says, "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death." That applies to all people who confess Jesus as their Lord. Heterosexuals are no better than homosexuals, we all have/do "sin".

"Jason, if you came here to speak against Truth, consider this a first/last warning."

You've got me all wrong, Chad. I love truth more than anything. What I dispise most is willful ignorance. It is not my goal to offend you. I only wish to enlighten. Much of what we believe about things comes from what others have told us. If we never question the information presented to us, there's a good chance a fair bit of that information will be false, but we would never know it, so long as we accept it without further inquiry. Some peopple are quite satisfied living in ignorance, while others need to get to the bottom of things. I am one of the later. It might come as a surprise to you, but your translations aren't as inerrant as you probably believe. Afterall, they are only translations.

The meaning of words have been lost or changed because the original test is not clearly understood or there was no comparable word in English to describe the Hebrew or Greek expression. Some translations have seemingly disregarded the clear text in the original language in order to perpetuate traditional points of view. Chad, since you mentioned 1 Corinthians 6 v 9, I will use this werse as an example to demonstrate what I've been saying. The New International Version puts it this way:












Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders...























This translation has combined two words from the Greek and mistranslated them as "homosexual". The first word is malakoi, which has a double meaning. The first literal meaning of malakoi in English is "softness" as it applies to touch. Secondly, the word is used to describe someone who is "weak willed", as it is in this case. In it's proper use it should be applied to someone who is an "addict". You might be asking yourself, if this is true how did it come to be so badly mistranslated? The Latin Vulgate translated malakoi to the word mollis which has the exact same meaning as malakoi , only later mollis became a slang expression that referred to men who wore silky refined clothing (soft to the touch). This led to the King James Version translating it "effeminate". Another translation of this word used "sissie". There are others still, like "lecherous", and "voluptuous". Obviously, judging from the various translations there has been some confusion by the translators and Bibleical scholars.












The second word is arsenokoitai. It's used only twice in the New Testament (1 Corinthians 6 v 9; 1 Timothy 1 v 10). This word doesn't appear anywhere in Greek homoserotic literature (which there is an abundance of in ancient Greece) so it is doubtful Paul would have chosen such an obscure word if he was intending to mean homosexual relations when there were others that would have made his intended thought more clear. Literally translated, arsenokoitai means "man-active-bed'. The meanis is questionable. If it is referring to male prostitutes who sell their bodies to men and Paul was intending or condemning that particular group of homosexuals, then he'd have probably chosen the word arenokoitai, meaning "man-passive-bed", which would indicate a male prostitute since they take the passive role sexually.

Now let us look at Deuteronomy 23 v 17 and 1 Kings 14 v 24. The shrine prostitutes were not homosexuals. The word used here is kawdashe and it refers to male/female temple cult prostitutes. These people were active in the worship of the pagan fertility gods and goddesses of ancient Palestine. This was not a condemnation of homosexuals, but of people who sold their bodies in service to idols.

I'm willing to discuss this further with anyone.

"GOD clearly speaks against homosexuality in the Bible. "Truth" doesn't revolve around your opinion based on your own man made wisdom."

I hope you can see that the Bible isn't at all clear and our translations might be completely wrong and even delibrately falsified. But I'm probably asking too much.

Now I'll just wait to see if freedom of speech can prevail in this environment.
Dear Jason4Truth:

I praise God that you participated to the topic on this thread. You have been given wise counsel by brothers and sisters and scripture to back up Michele's original thread on the definition of marriage. After reading your posts carefully it is clear that you choose scripture to conveniently get your point across, but what concerns me is your deep hidden agendas are exposed along with your ego to defend your sympathetic stand to gays being regarded as second class citizens. God expects all His children to read His word and submit to wise counsel before exposing ourselves, and not viewing others with unwise words, such as "second class."

With that, I challenge you to print out this topic. Please seek your pastor and ask him to help you to understand the scriptures about God's design for marriage. Challenge him, not this thread, but him, about your point of view and allow him to do what God is holding your pastor accountable to do and that is to shepherd you, brother. This is all good, and God will honor you for seeking Him first, brother.

My brothers and sisters have already revealed the Truth here. I don't need to expand on this discussion, Jason, but will continue to pray and fast for you, and on Canada's definition of marriage.

Your brother in Christ Jesus!
 
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Chad: GOD did not create people to be gay. If that were so, he would have made only one single sex instead of two.
The reasoning behind your opinion makes no sense at all, Chad. Not only that, but your statement totally ignores the fact that there are homosexuals in this world and they were all created by God just like everyone else. Thus, God created gayness in people. You and no one else has convinced me that homosexuality is a sin. And being so, as it is, I do not believe homosexuals and lesbians need feel guilty and repent for their natural sexual desires.

Chad: The above is clearly what GOD says in the Book of Life, not book of man.
The passages you so kindly brought to my attention may be God's words, but they have been in the hands of men for far too long so there is really no reason to believe that they are accurate. I don't have to tell you this, but men do make mistakes, and I've already discussed a few of them in my last post. It is not my fault you have deliberately rejected that information, for no other reason but the fact that it doesn't fall in line with your current beliefs.

As for the commentary your kindly posted: I agree with it 100%. What you are having difficulty with is understanding I don't consider homosexuality to a sin.

Mymakersdaughter: Jason, you have no clue about truth plain and simple. You have never studied God's word or have been under a teacher of God's word. 2% of the population in Canada consider themselves as gay or lesbian...does it really make sense to change the law for 2%, the majority rule in this country. The courts have no business changing the law for all the people, it's the elected officials. Why are you so hetrophobic? Are you afraid of hetrosexuals?
As a matter of fact I have and continue to study the Bible, I just don't take it at face value.

And yes, it does make sense to change the law for that two percent (true numbers can't be known because many GBLT's fear persecution if their true sexuality is revealed). Since a change in the law would not affect the majority of people who already enjoy the privilage of marrying the person of their choice. There is no loss in redefining marriage so that those same privilages can be extended to 100% of the adult population. To withhold this from people for any reason is a violation of human rights (the Supreme Court agrees) and thus democracy is not an issue. Say 90% of people in some fictional democratic country voted to legalize psychdelic drugs for whatever reason. Changing the law definately would be the democratic thing to do, but do you feel it would be the right thing to do? I didn't think so. Just because the majority of people in this country happen to be heterosexual, it doesn't automatically follow that marriage should be restricted to that group of people simply because Canada is a democratic nation. Democracy and justice don't always go hand in hand; it is merely the measure men's opinions. And, as it has been said several times since my posting here, some of you do not value men's opinions. So why start now?

As for you calling me a heterophobe, that's hogwash. Not only that it is an insult. I'm sure if I were the one who called you by some name similar to that, I'd be booted off before I could click 'send'.

Freedomwhatelse: So this should not be something because of people wanting to expose their differntiallity and uniqueness, that others need to be made aware of. That like it is for me should be between you the person you are with and God and shouldn't be letting others know what you like in the private confines of your bedroom.
I couldn't agree with you more. However, that isn't what this issue is about. This is about people being allowed to share their lives together and having that relationship be legally recognized as special and unique, between those two individuals. Just as it is with heterosexuals. It has nothing to do with flaunting ones sexuality.

Freedomwhatelse: And the other issue that I wanted to bring up is that once we are born again, we are to die to the flesh, take up our cross, and we also will become a new creature in Christ Jesus, not that we won't sin and when we do we will be convicted of it, but we will want to give up of the old sinful nature. My example here is an alcoholic, if they have been reborn, chances are that they are at one point going to be conicted of it by the Lord and have to, want to quit.
I see what you are getting at, but it is my experience that homosexuality is not something that can be changed. Believe me, I spent many years trying and praying. I even attended Christian counselling for this reason and had no success. So it is now my belief that homosexuality is not an abomination any more than heterosexuality is a sin. I did not choose this for myself and no well meaning conservative Christian will be able to convince me otherwise, especially if they have not walked in my shoes.

And, since you have chosen to compare homosexuals with addicts, I would like to discuss this further. Alcholics do not need to be "reborn" before they desire to quite (It is possible to be a Christian and an alcoholic at the same time). What must first happen is a sudden realization that they've hit rock bottom. At that point they will recognize the need to quite because they are on a path that will only end in self-destruction. Conversion to Christianity is not a necessity before that happens.

Now, what got them to that point in the first place is anyones guess, but it is a well known fact that there is an inheritable gene that makes certain people susceptable to having an addicted personality, which leaves them unable to resist alcohol. In the same way some people are born with a gene that predetermines which sex they will be attracted to. There was no choice involved. They only know how they feel, but can't tell you the reason why.

The difference between homosexuals and alcoholics is that there is no rock bottom for us queers. (It is not self-destructive, and in a committed relationship there is no danger involved.) We can't flip a switch and one day overcome our sexual persuassion no matter how badly we may want to. However, it is possible that some may decide to sleep with the opposite sex, but doing so doesn't change their true sexual feelings. Such a person then becomes a liar. It's a no win situation.

Bobinfaith~

I have this to say:"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." I'm sure you recognize this verse. It is from James 1 v 27 ... I'm sure what you and I consider to be "the world" is very different.
 
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Throwing in 2 cents... though I'm an American. Just remembered something that might be helpful in further enlightening all concerned on the subject:

http://www.exodusnorthamerica.org

There's a whole LOT of folks out there who believe homosexuality is outside the Will of our Father. Granted, the size of the mob who believe something really lends no weight to the truth / falsehood of a matter. However, the folks involved with Exodus North America know what kind of pain the homosexual lifestyle can bring, and they also know that we "...can do all things through Christ..." including leaving such a painful lifestyle behind, and finding a place of love and acceptance at the foot of the Cross.
However, I'm no expert on the subject, so anyone who's interested should follow that link. Those folks (the Exodus folks, that is) know what they're talking about, and are willing to speak the truth in love.

Thanks,
And God Bless Canadian Hockey. :wink:
 
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Jason4Truth said:
The reasoning behind your opinion makes no sense at all, Chad. Not only that, but your statement totally ignores the fact that there are homosexuals in this world and they were all created by God just like everyone else. Thus, God created gayness in people. You and no one else has convinced me that homosexuality is a sin. And being so, as it is, I do not believe homosexuals and lesbians need feel guilty and repent for their natural sexual desires.
You are wrong, it is not my opinion but Truth as told in Scripture. It is your opinion that you feel that way though not Truth.

The passages you so kindly brought to my attention may be God's words, but they have been in the hands of men for far too long so there is really no reason to believe that they are accurate. I don't have to tell you this, but men do make mistakes, and I've already discussed a few of them in my last post. It is not my fault you have deliberately rejected that information, for no other reason but the fact that it doesn't fall in line with your current beliefs.

As for the commentary your kindly posted: I agree with it 100%. What you are having difficulty with is understanding I don't consider homosexuality to a sin.
Once again, your opinion but not Truth as told in Scripture by GOD. The Word of GOD does not revolve around your opinions whatsoever, so yours hold no validity just because "you say so".

As a matter of fact I have and continue to study the Bible, I just don't take it at face value.

And yes, it does make sense to change the law for that two percent (true numbers can't be known because many GBLT's fear persecution if their true sexuality is revealed). Since a change in the law would not affect the majority of people who already enjoy the privilage of marrying the person of their choice. There is no loss in redefining marriage so that those same privilages can be extended to 100% of the adult population. To withhold this from people for any reason is a violation of human rights (the Supreme Court agrees) and thus democracy is not an issue. Say 90% of people in some fictional democratic country voted to legalize psychdelic drugs for whatever reason. Changing the law definately would be the democratic thing to do, but do you feel it would be the right thing to do? I didn't think so. Just because the majority of people in this country happen to be heterosexual, it doesn't automatically follow that marriage should be restricted to that group of people simply because Canada is a democratic nation. Democracy and justice don't always go hand in hand; it is merely the measure men's opinions. And, as it has been said several times since my posting here, some of you do not value men's opinions. So why start now?
As for you calling me a heterophobe, that's hogwash. Not only that it is an insult.
I'm sure if I were the one who called you by some name similar to that, I'd be booted off before I could click 'send'.
Funny, did you not email me insults and harassments last night when the site went down and you assumed I banned you? Very "christian" of you to assume things, twice in a row now.

More opionions.

some of you do not value men's opinions.
We don't value mens' opinions over GOD, you are right.

You obviuosly do not care for the WORD of GOD anymore because your deceived thoughts/opinions tell you that it is ok, that the bible is outdated and/or not accurate anymore. Everything you've said is solely your opinion and mockery against Truth.

You are wrong about not being able to change. I've read countless stories of "christian gays" who realized they were decevied and living an abominational lifestyle. They changed and are REAL Christians now. Many stories.

Did you give your all to GOD? That is between you and GOD. I think you may not have changed yet because you don't believe in Truth in the first place. You are deceiving yourslef and others. If you don't stop calling the Bible inaccurate you will stay the same and persih for eternity, is that what you want?

Read the "evidence of Jesus Christ" and Bible Facts forums on my site here and you'll see scientific evidence of it all. You need to open your mind before your mouth. Without wisdom and knowledge, you know nothing
 
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Oh my many prayers are going out for you Jason. As well for all of us here. My simple sum up of God created you that way stands as this as well as with alcoholics; No God did not create the bad things in us, we are born in sin. There are such things as generstional curses which are found out about in Deuteronomy, and further suggestest thoughout the bible that these happen. I did not choose either to be an alcoholic but am one, and was many years before God finally brought me to my knees and convicted me of this then wence Recovery. That particular disease is one of a physical allergy, mental obssesion, and soul sickness. All area's must be delt with in order to have a daily reprieve. So just because right now I am living and unpstanding life for Christ, if I were to slide away from the things that I must do everyday (like surrender my all) then I eventually will end up in deep waters and likely picking up a drink again unless I am able to realize that this is happening and get back and surrender, to Him being Lord and Saviour of My Life Jesus, and continue the path like I maintain today. In short what I am trying to say is that once He is ready He will convict you of this and that it is not from God, Only good things are from God but we are born unto sin.
Secondly I wanted to draw your attention again to the story of Sodom and Gomorrah Genesis 19 it is very clear, cut and dry, why they were destroyed by God.
And no matter what you say about the bible it is God breathed! and all of the people that have ever translated it in whatever version you read, they have all carefully, Prayerfully, done this and have all been Godly persons. It is wrong of you as a Christian to try to even nullify any part of the bible, for this is what God has given us in order that we may know how to conduct our lives. You have to take the whole thing or none at all! Not what pleases you and not translate it to suit your fancy or your life, it is for All of us Christians to follow.
Jason just to remind you, I am not here to judge you and none of us are, obviously God just hasn't decided to deal with you on this particular matter yet. God's timing is everything. I will continue to pray for you as I do for everyone else here. And I hope that you have been open to the things that have been brought to you, as all have been good.
GOD Bless you Jason, Love Peace and Prayers All,
 
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One last thing we can only help those that want help with the things they are willing, to change. God is the only one that can force our change and actually do this. We must be willing, to Surrender!
GOD Bless, Love, Peace, and Prayers,
 
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Jason quite frankly you called me a biggot, that is completely unacceptable and my response was to that. I now completely see where you are coming from and we all want to justify our sins, but sin is sin. You do not wish to accpet what my brothers and sisters are saying on here, you refuse truth. That is very sad. You chose to live with blinders on when peeking through Gods' Word. Read any books by John MscArthur, listen to his talk shows, read Chuck Swindol, listen to Focus on the Family. It is the easy way out to say the God's word was tampered with, therefore read the Greek and Hebrew then if that will help you, but I don't see you doing that.

I too met a Godly man in Australia, and he told me that he was gay when he was younger but when he got saved, God saved him from that sin. He was happily married with 5 kids, a beautiful wife and very involved in his church. He told me that it was sin that decieved him into living a gay lifestyle.
Your choices are just that, your choices. God didn't make you gay.
 

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