Thoughts on the Tribulation

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The 5th trumpet -- Rev 9:1-11; the locusts from the bottomless pit.
Up until now, almost all of the seals and trumpets have been described in 1 or 2 verses.
But it takes 11 verses to describe the locusts of the first woe.

There are so many of them that the air is darkened as with smoke.
They do not hurt those who have the seal of God on their foreheads...
(there is speculation over whether this is all Christians, or only the 144,000 who were sealed ( Rev 7:3; Rev 14:1; )
They don't kill you, but their sting is as painful s a scorpions sting for 5 months.
They do not eat grass, trees or green things as "normal" locusts do.
The sting will be so bad, that men will seek death to be rid of it, but it says they will not be able to find death.

that's the first woe.

... to be continued... the second woe (6th trumpet)

 

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So up until now... a third of the vegetation (trees, grass and crops ) have died.
A third of sea creatures (fish, whales, seals, etc...) and third of the ships are destroyed.
I read an interesting fact that at any given time, ( a website called sailwx.info )
That while they don't have exact statistics for worldwide sea traffic, the data they do have shows over
50,000 sea going vessels active at any given time (that doesn't count military operations).
We have a third of the rivers poisoned. And now we have locusts/scorpions flying around stinging people.

That seems like bad stuff, but if you thought those things were bad.. hold on...

The 6th trumpet (2nd woe) -- This is the longest of the trumpets.. It starts at Rev 9-13; and continues
all the way through chapter 10, and continues to Rev 11:14;

A lot of things happen here.

Four angels are released to kill a third of mankind. (quite a bit of mankind has already been killed in the previous trumpets).
An army of 200 million horsemen are released. There is controversy over whether these are spiritual beings or whether
they are a physical earthly army. Currently only India or China would be able to field an army this large.
It says the power of these horsemen is in their mouths and in their tails. It says fire and brimstone comes out
of their mouths. ( I can't help but picture something like a flame-thrower)
Rev 9:20-21; says even though all of these things are undeniably happening, many men still will not repent.

We move over to Rev chapter 10 and this second woe continues....

A strong angel who has one foot on the land, and one foot on the sea has a "little book" which is open.
There is much speculation about what the foot on the land, and the foot on the sea represent.
But the angels cries out in a loud voice "like a lion roaring". Then there are seven peals of thunder.
The 7 loud thunders are all contained in the 6th trumpet. We aren't told what the 7 peals of thunder say,
but whatever it is, it is locked up in the book.

John (who wrote the book of Revelation) says he is told to eat the book, it will be bitter in his stomach, but in his mouth it
will be sweet as honey. Then John is told to prophesy some more....

We jump over to chapter 11 and we hear of the two witnesses. There has been much debate and discussion
over who the two witnesses might be. The most common opinion seems to be Enoch and Elijah, because
they were both "raptured" up to heaven and never tasted death. Moses is another popular pick.

John is told to measure the temple of God, and the altar, and those who worship in it.
He is told not to measure the courtyard outside the temple... "for it has been given to the nations".
This is often taken as a prophecy of the New Jerusalem (the temple of God) and the nations outside the New Jerusalem.

We often hear the tribulation will be 7 years long, some people think this is because of verses in Daniel 12, This is partially
true, However this time is also mentioned at least 4 places in Revelation. Two of those places are right here in Rev 11;

The two tread "under foot" (some translations say "walking about on foot") around the Holy City (Jerusalem).
For 42 months... If a year is 12 months... then 42 months is three and a half years. ( Rev 11:2; )
It then says they will prophesy for 1,260 days. If a year is 365 days, we do some math here.
1,260 divided by 365 = (let's see.. I'm running out of fingers) 3.45 years.. or roughly 3 1/2 years.

But wait a minute.. 3 1/2 years isn't seven years... patience... we aren't to that part yet.

It says the two witnesses are the two "olive trees" the two "lampstands" before the Lord.
If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes out of their mouths and devours their enemies.
It says.. if anyone tries to harm them.. they MUST be killed in this way.

They have the power to stop the sky from raining, and the power to turn water into blood, and strike
the earth with "every plague" as often as they desire. Those who say Moses is one of the two witnesses
point to the plagues of Egypt back in Exodus chapters 7 to 11.

These included, water in blood, frogs, lice, wild animals (possibly flies), diseased livestock, boils on the skin,
Thunderstorms of hail and fire, locusts, darkness, (it also included the death of the firstborn).

It says when they have finished their testimony ( after 3 1/2 years) the beast will overcome them and kill them.
Their bodies will lie in "in the streets of the great city" which is mystically called Sodom and Egypt.
"Where also their Lord was crucified"... this seems to point back to Jerusalem.

It says their bodies will lie there for 3 1/2 days, and the people will not allow their bodies to be removed or placed in
a grave (or tomb). These people will celebrate and give gifts to one another "because the prophets who tormented
them are dead". Presumably they were tormented by both the prophecies, and the plagues.

After 3 1/2 days.. God raises them back up to life. God calls them back up to heaven and they go up in a cloud
right before the peoples eyes. (That would be a sight to behold). In that hour, a great earthquake happens in the city
(Jerusalem) and 7,000 people are killed. (about a tenth of the population).

It says the rest of the city was terrified and gave Glory to God.

... it took a long time to get through the second woe (the 6th trumpet) but here we are...

... next.. the 7th trumpet (3rd woe) ...

 

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It took us 34 verses to make it through the 6th trumpet.

The 7th trumpet ( 3rd woe) -- Rev 11:15-19; Christs reigns... (for 1,000 years)
The 24 elders who are sitting on 24 thrones fell of their faces and worshiped God.
There is a lot of speculation about who the 24 elders here are.

Those people ("nations") which have stood against Christ are now enraged because the wrath of the Lord has come.
Everyone will be judged. Some will be rewarded, and some will be destroyed.

Rev 11:19; is another controversial verse.

Rev 11:19; And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

Many take this to be the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven; and the "ark of His covenant" appeared in His temple.
In the old old testament.. the ark of the covenant was a container that contained the 10 commandments.
Some say Jesus is the ark of the covenant in the new testament... It doesn't actually say this.. but it does say he is the
guaranteer and the mediator of the covenant. ( Heb 7:22; Heb 8:6; ) Also nine times in the New Testament it
mentions that Jesus is the "blood" of the covenant.( Matt 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; 1 Cor 11:25; Heb 9:18;
Heb 10:29; Heb 12:24; Heb 13:20; )

There have been some threads about what this means, so I won't go into detail here. But a lot of this is explained
in Heb 9:15-16; saying that a covenant isn't in effect until there is a death.

.... next Rev 12 ....

 

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Rev 12:1-2; is usually taken to be Israel, some say also Mary, but it could be both.
The twelve stars could be the twelve tribes, or it could be the twelve disciples or both.

This is often taken as a parallel prophecy, in other words this is something that happened in the past
(possibly Matt 2:13-15; ) but will happen again in the future. Much of Revelation is taken this way.

Rev 12:3-4; are typically taken to be about Satan. He has 7 heads with 7 crowns and ten horns.
His tail sweeps away a third of the stars in heaven. This is pretty figurative and symbolic language.
But this is often taken to mean Satan took a third of the angels with him when he rebelled.
(in fact 6 verses later it says "Satan and his angels". (verse 9))

Rev 12:5-6; are usually taken to be about Jesus "the Christ".
I mentioned back in post #22 that we only accounted for 3 1/2 years so far. So where do the other three and a half
years come in? Right here.

It says that the woman with her child fled into the wilderness for 1,260 days. (about 3 1/2 years) ( Rev 12:6; )
This could be a parallel prophecy to Matt 2:13-15;

... next Rev 12 continued... the war between Michael and Satan.

 

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I don't always like to post long passages of scripture, but sometimes it is unavoidable.

Rev 12:7; And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,
Rev 12:8; and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.
Rev 12:9; And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
Rev 12:10; Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11; "And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.
Rev 12:12; "For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."
Rev 12:13; And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.
Rev 12:14; But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
Rev 12:15; And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood.
Rev 12:16; But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17; So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

There is quite a bit of figurative and symbolic language here. But I will try to cover the high points.
Verses 7-9 talk about the rebellion of Satan and his angels. They were kicked out of heaven.
Jesus says He, Himself saw this in Luke 10:18;

This of course took place before the fall of man in the garden of Eden. Satan had already rebelled against
man before he tempted Eve. But this is also taken by many to mean Satan will try again, and there
will be another war in heaven in the future.

Rev 11:10-11; is a very powerful passage of scripture for many reasons, but the main thing here is the authority of
Jesus is proclaimed. ( see Matt 28:18; )
Verse 11 is sometimes controversial...
The accused "overcame" Satan by the blood of Jesus... and the word of their testimony... (one of the main points
of spiritual warfare is to take away our testimony).
The phrase "they did not love their life even when faced with death" could be taken several ways.
Many will die for their beliefs in the tribulation (more about that later). It says many will be beheaded.
But it also could simply mean that even now.. true Christians aren't more caught up in the things of this
world.. their wants, their desire... but "did not love their life" as much as they loved God and were
willing to give it up for Him. Not only in the physical death aspect. But in the spiritual aspect
of daily living (taking up your cross daily) and living for Him instead of yourself everyday.

In verse 12 we see that Satan has come down to the earth.. obviously he is here now.
It says "woe" to the earth because of this.
If "the woman" in verse 13 is Israel, then this means Satan will persecute them.. (as if he hasn't
for last several millennia)

Verse 14 is sometimes taken as a prophecy of the United States. The symbol of the US is the eagle.
Many Jews have come here since the US became a nation. The second largest population of Jews
is in the US (after Israel).

I mentioned that the times frames of the tribulation were mentioned at least 4 times, so far we've only
covered 3 of them... here is the 4th... "a time and times and half a time" (verse 14)
When taken with the verse in chapter 11, about 1,260 days... this could mean 3 1/2 years also.
"a year, plus two years, plus half a year" = 3 1/2 years. This same language is used in Daniel.

In verse 17.. since Satan can't get to the woman directly right now... he will just go off and
fight her children "who keep the commandments" and "hold onto the testimony of Jesus".

More speculation over whether this is just Christian Jews.. or all believers.

... next Rev 13... the beast.

 

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So we finally meet "the beast".

There are much speculation and debate about who or what the beast is and what he represents.

Some say it is an organization like UN or a world government. Others believe it is indeed a man.
I tend to take the middle ground here and picture something like Hitler, a man with a strong
military and government support behind him.

The beast comes up out of the sea. -- Many take this to mean that either this person is born near
the sea or from an island such as Patmos or Sicily, still other believe it just means an area near
the sea, for example the countries around the Mediterranean. He has 10 horns, 7 heads, and 10 crowns.
"and on his heads were blasphemous names".

The beast is made up of a leopard, a bear, and a lion. There have been many interpretations of what this means,
the most common being that this The leopard represents one of the following countries. England, Estonia,
Denmark or Croatia. These are the countries that have traditionally had the leopard symbol on their flags.
There have been a few other small countries, but they are relatively new and small, so they are often dismissed.

The Bear is almost always taken as Russia (Gog).

The Lion could be France, Bulgaria, Sweden or the UK. But is most often thought to be Persia.
There is no country of Persia today, but this would be mostly the geographic location of Iran in
todays world.

One of the seven heads receives a fatal wound, but then the "whole earth" is amazed that the head
is brought back to life. .. and the "whole earth" followed the beast. It seems that whoever or whatever
the beast is. Most will be drawn to him and follow him.

In verse 4 it says the dragon (Satan) gives authority to the beast. The world will worship the dragon
(Satan) because he gave the power to the beast. The world is saying "who is like the beast, who is
able to wage war against him". This seem to indicate a very powerful military presence. (possibly
a merging with the countries listed above).

I forgot this one earlier, but there is a fifth time frame given here in Rev 13:5; again we see the familiar 42 months.
( 3 1/2 years) He speaks with blasphemies, arrogant words, against God, God's tabernacle, and those who
dwell in heaven.

Rev 13:7; says he is given authority to make war with the saints, and he will overcome them.
He will have authority over every tribe, and nation, and the peoples of the earth.

Either the rapture is "post trib". Or these are the people saved during the tribulation, because
it says there will saints alive at this time, and the beast with make war with them and overcome them.

Rev 13:8; says all who dwell upon the earth will worship the beast, everyone who's name isn't
written in the book of life (from the foundation of the world).

This phrase "from the foundation of the earth" is taken two different ways. It could mean
that even before the foundation of the earth, it was foreknown that those names would
never be in the BOL. Or it simply could mean, that as every generation has been born and died
up to this time, some names were not put into the BOL while that person was alive.

... to be continued... more Rev 13.. more about the beast.

 

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Let's see... where did I leave off...

In Rev 13:10; it says some are destined for captivity. It also says if anyone kills with a sword, they will be killed by a sword
themselves. ( This is very similar to what Jesus says to Peter in Matt 26:52; )
It goes on to say.. "Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints. "

Christians will be imprisoned, killed by the sword and yet they will remain faithful. That will be a very hard
time to be a Christian. But again, the fact that there are "saints" here to even have faith means that either
the rapture happens later, or these are people saved in the tribulation after the rapture has already happened.

In Rev 13:11; we see a second beast.... unlike the first beast that comes up out of the sea... this beast
comes up out of the earth. He has two horns like a lamb, and he speaks like a dragon.
Again... very symbolic language here, that is hard to decipher.

The second beast exercises the authority of the first beast while in his presence.
He makes the "whole earth" worship the first beast. This second (smaller?) beast is thought
to be something like a vice president or a lieutenant of sorts under the first beast.
Somewhat controversial here... is the phrase "the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed".

Was the whole beast himself fatally wounded? Or was just one of his heads wounded? ( Rev 13:3; )
This second beast performs great signs and can even call fire down from heaven. ( Rev 13:13; )

The second beast tells the beast worshiper to make an image of the beast. (verse 14)
This (statue?) image of the beast is given the ability to breathe and speak by the second beast. (v15)
...and "he causes all who do not worship the beast to be killed"... ( v16)
next he causes all men (the great and the small, the rich and the poor, the free and the slaves)
to take the mark of the beast. Either on their right hand or on their forehead.
... however we will see later... that once you do this.. you are doomed for eternity.. there is no turning back.

No one can buy or sell anything (food, clothing, shelter, etc... ) unless they have the mark of the beast..
either his number.. or his name.

The last verse of chapter 18 tells us the number of the beast.... 6-6-6 or 666.
I have seen a lot of ways this "number" is determined. I have seen the ASCII alphabet number
representation... for example is computer character language the letter A = 65, and the letter Z = 90.
I've seen all the letters of a given persons name added up and the value = 666.
Another theory says that the number of God is "7". Seven is considered a perfect number.
But man is a little lower than God... so the number of man is "6". I have seen a few other theories as well,
I'm not sure how this number is determined... but I know we will recognize it when we see it.
No one will accidentally take this mark. It will be a conscious decision.

The number 666 in Greek is hexakosioi, hexēkonta, hex.
A hexagon is 6 sided circle.

... next Rev 14, the 144,000 and fallen Babylon.

 

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Back when I was talking about the 6 seal, I briefly mentioned the 144,000.

Back in Rev 7 The angel that was given power to harm the earth and sea ( verse 2)
was told not to harm anything until "we have sealed the bond-servants" of our God on their foreheads. (verse 3)

I didn't go into much detail there. But Back in Rev 7 ( starting with verse 4)
It says there are 144,000 from every tribe of the sons of Israel.
It goes on to mention the 12 tribes (Judah, Rueben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph and Benjamin)
It says there are 12,000 from of these tribes. It says these 12,000 from each tribe are sealed. (Presumably with the seal on their
foreheads mentioned in Rev 7:3; )

Some believe these are the only people going to heaven... ( only 144,000 )
Some believe these are the only Jews going to heaven.
Some believe these aren't actually descendants of Abraham but a representative of all races who are Christian believers.
Some believe the 144,000 is a figurative number that simply is an abstract of the entire population of Christian believers.

My personal opinion is that all of those explanations are wrong.
I believe it really is 144,000 Jews. It really is 12,000 from each tribe. Even today... over 4,000 years from the time of Abraham,
many Jews know what tribe they are from. Some don't. But I don't think that matters, because God knows.

We don't really ear anything else about the 144,000 thousand who were sealed for a while. We do know they go
through the tribulation because Rev 9:4; mentions the flying scorpion/locusts and says they do not harm those
"who have the seal of God of their foreheads".

So seven chapters later we finally get to Rev 14, and the 144,000 are mentioned again.
They make it to Mount Zion (the New Jerusalem is also called Mount Zion in several places). ( Rev 14:1; )
and there is a voice... like many waters, like a loud thunder, and like a harp playing all at the same time.
..and they sang a "new song" before the throne. Before the 4 living creatures, and the elders. It says
no one could learn this song except the 144,000 ( Rev 14:3; )

So what makes these particular Jews different?
They have not been defiled with women.... (perhaps taken as a sexist view, but I'm just repeating what's in the Bible).
So it could be possible these are all male Jews? They have kept themselves chaste ( Rev 14:4; )
They have a special purpose... to follow the Lamb (Jesus) wherever He goes ( Rev 14:4; ) and to sing the song before the
throne that no one else can learn. These are the "first fruits" to God and to the Lamb.
It also says "no lie was found in their mouth, and they are blameless".

So these are possibly all Jewish males, from the 12 tribes, who have never been with women, and have never lied.
I do not believe they are the people going to heaven, nor do I even believe they are the only Jews. However they
have a special purpose that God has set aside for them in heaven. Sort of a personal choir before the throne.

.... next.. fallen Babylon.

 

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While there is some disagreement about who the beast is, who the two witnesses are, and the time line of the tribulation,
it seems the one thing that there is the most disagreement about is the Babylon mentioned in Revelation.

The Babylon of the old Testament was a city in Mesopotamia on the Tigris river. It is thought to have been in existence
from about 1900 BC to about 150 BC. At one time, it was likely the largest city in the world, almost certainly a large
economic and military power in it's heyday. But Babylon had a series of wars, the first was in 539 BC.
A large portion of the city and it's inhabitants was destroyed by Cyrus the Great. A subsequent war in 331 BC in which
Alexander the Great defeated Darius III all but completely destroyed the city. It never was a great power after that time.

So for over 3 centuries before the time of Jesus and the disciples, Babylon really didn't exist. At least not the Babylon
of the ancient empire. In 1st Peter 5:13; it says "She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greeting...."

If Babylon was destroyed before this time, who is the Babylon here? While not all scholars agree on who Babylon here
is... virtually all do agree that it wasn't really the actual city of ancient Babylon. The prevailing thought is that
"she who is in Babylon" was the church in Rome. This was a code word to make it past Roman censors of the time. If
this letter fell into the wrong hands, even more Christians would be persecuted.

Babylon is mentioned 6 times in Revelation.. ( Rev 14:8; Rev 16:19; Rev 17:5; Rev 18:2; Rev 18:10; and Rev 18:21; )
If this isn't the ancient capital of Mesopotamia... who is it?

.... next... more about Babylon.. the Harlot...

 

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Rev 14:8; And another angel, a second one, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her immorality.”

We haven't gotten to the seven bowls of God's wrath yet, (it's coming up soon) but Babylon is mentioned there also.

Rev 16:17; Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, “It is done.”
Rev 16:18; And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty.
Rev 16:19; The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.

This Babylon will face a great earthquake, "such as there has never been since the existence of man". The City will be split into 3 parts.
And will face "the cup of the wine of His (God's) fierce wrath. God may be love, but He is also a jealous God who says some will
face His wrath.

Rev 17 is where we hear the most about Babylon, and get a few clues about who Babylon might be.

Rev 17:1; Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,
Rev 17:2; with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality.”
Rev 17:3; And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:4; The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality,
Rev 17:5; and on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, “BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.”
Rev 17:6; And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly.
Rev 17:7; And the angel said to me, “Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.

Rev 17:8; “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.
Rev 17:9; Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits,
Rev 17:10; and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.
Rev 17:11; The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.
Rev 17:12; The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour.
Rev 17:13; These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.

The great Harlot sits on many waters. Here is one clue. Likely it isn't an inland city, but perhaps a coastal city.
Ancient Babylon was on the Tigris, a large river, but hardly considered to be "many waters".

... with whom the leaders (kings) of the earth have committed acts of immorality, and many were made drink with the wine
of her immorality.

In Rev 17:3; John is "carried away in the Spirit" into a wilderness and is shown a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, having 7 heads and
ten horns. (Just like the first beast in Rev 13:1; .. also see Rev 12:3; ) at first.. it seems perhaps this is a different woman..
but in verse 5 we find out her name is Babylon the Great, the mother of Harlots and of the abominations of the Earth.

The woman is clothed in purple and scarlet, and is adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls. ( verse 4)
The woman is drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. ( verse 6)

In verse 8, the angel tells John that the beast that the woman is riding is indeed the same beast mentioned in Rev 13.
In verse 9, the angel says the seven heads are the seven hills (or mountains) on which the woman sits. also they are
seven kings, 5 have already fallen, one is currently in power, and one is yet to come.

I have heard that Babylon is Rome (the Vatican), Jerusalem, perhaps New York or Hollywood, or even Paris. During world
war II, a common thought was that Hitler was the beast, and Berlin was the harlot. There is medieval literature that
suggest that during the time of Napoleon, many considered him to be the beast, and Paris to be the harlot.

Some of these cities are not upon "many waters".. unless of course.. the waters are spiritual waters in some sense.
While there have been a few cities known as being a city built on seven mountains, Rome is by far the most
famous of these, it was known as the city of seven hills for nearly 2 thousand years. It has since outgrown the
original seven hills, but it is still called that on occasion. Jerusalem is another city that has been called the city
of seven hills.

Another clue may be the scarlet and purple, which are the official colors of the Vatican. In which case the gold,
rubies and pearls mentioned in verse 4 might make sense. No city has more Gold and precious jewels adorning
it than the Vatican.

Jerusalem (which ironically means "new peace" ) is perhaps most fought over and embattled city in the world
over the last two thousand years. Keep in mind many of those battles where commissioned by Rome (the crusades).
Also the vast majority of the other battles had very little to do with 'Christianity" and a lot to do with Islam,
the Ottoman empire, the Palestinians, the Arabs, and even Iran(Persia).

Another thought is that the Harlot could be the country of Iran (ancient Mesopotamia/Persia) rather than a single city.
There are several large rivers, and lakes in Iran, not to mention the Caspian sea and the Persian gulf.

However no city in Persia has really ever been known by the name of "the seven hills" and no Iranian nor Persian power
has really used scarlet and purple in it's heraldry.

If the Harlot is indeed Rome (the Vatican).. the blood and immoralities that the harlot is drunk with could be all of the Christians
slain by Nero during his reign. Also it could mean all the souls that the Vatican has lead astray over the centuries. ( Has any other
city led more astray for a longer time? )

... conitinued... more about the harlot.

 

[B-A-C]

Rev 17:15; And he *said to me, “The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.
Rev 17:16; And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.
Rev 17:17; For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.
Rev 17:18; The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

The "many waters" here are referred to as to "peoples", "multitudes", "nations", and "tongues". This is thought to be either
the nations that have done commerce with this city/nation or the people in the world who have been affected either
economically or spiritually by the harlot/city.

Now there has been the some speculation that the beast is the pope. It's possible, but I consider it unlikely for
a few different reasons. The Vatican doesn't really have any military to speak of. But if he is the pope, then almost
certainly the harlot is not the Vatican/Rome because it says the beast and his ten horns (ten kings) will hate the harlot
and make her naked and desolate, and burn her up, and "eat her flesh".

 

[B-A-C]

...back to the seventh trumpet.
The seventh trumpet also is the release of the "seven bowl judgments" or sometimes called the "seven bowls of wrath".

The first six bowls are described in Rev 16:1-12;

The first bowl causes "loathsome and malignant" sores to appear on the people who took the mark of the beast,
and/or those who worshiped his image.

The second bowl causes the sea to turn to blood. Unlike the trumpet judgment which was only 1/3rd of the sea,
this is the entire sea. It becomes like blood and everything (not just a third) in it dies.

The third angel's bowl causes all the rivers, springs and fresh water lakes to turn to blood. The effectively
cuts off the clean water supply to the entire world.
-- The angels tell the Lord that these people deserve this. They say that God's judgments are true and righteous.

The fourth bowl causes the sun to give off an extreme heat. It says men's skin will be "scorched".
I think this will be even more severe than a third degree sunburn. It says people will blaspheme the
name of God because of this, but yet they still won't repent.

We see the fifth bowl in verses 10 and 11.
Rev 16:10; Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain,
Rev 16:11; and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.

These people have their hearts so hardened by now.. even though there is darkness, and extreme pain, they still curse God
and will not repent.

The sixth bowl causes the "great river Euphrates" to become dried up. It says this is to prepare the way for the kings
from the east... (more about this shortly)..
The Euphrates is one of the largest rivers in the world. During the rainy season it becomes large enough to qualify as the
third largest river in the world. It starts in modern day Turkey and flows through Iraq, Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia and then merges with the Tigris (another large river) before it flows into the Arabian gulf. There is no record of it completely drying up during modern times. The ancient capital of Mesopotamia, the city of Babylon was located on the Euphrates river.

.... to be continued... the kings of the east, Armageddon, and the seventh bowl.

 

[B-A-C]

Commentary break -- There are many people who believe we are going through the tribulation right now.
And there are storms, earthquakes, famine and economic problems all over the world even now. Most of
these things aren't new, they've been going on since the dawn of mankind. But I believe these things are nothing
compared to what is coming. A third of mankind dying within 3 1/2 years. A third of the rivers poisoned.
A third of the sea creatures and ships will be destroyed. A loaf of bread will cost a weeks wages.
There will be flying locust/scorpions that sting people, and it hurts for 5 months. You will be unable
to buy or sell anything (including food) unless you take the mark of the beast.

... and then things get worse...

200 million horsemen kill a third of mankind. The entire sea becomes like blood and everything in it dies.
All the fresh water in the water becomes like blood. The sun becomes so hot it scorches people.
People will have malignant sores on their bodies, and it will be a very painful experience. There will be
darkness and fear. There will be meteors falling into the sea, and large hailstones (weighing as much as 50
pounds!!) falling on people, and fire will be failing from the sky.

Now perhaps some of this could be taken as symbolic and figurative language. But I believe the pain inflicted,
and the number of people who will die during this time are real numbers. Not an abstract number.
The tribulation will indeed be... tribulation (trouble).

.. back to our regularly scheduled end of the earth ...

 

[B-A-C]

.... another tangent for a moment...

It may be that many of these things may not happen exactly as described. For example, I read a book
recently that tries to explain a lot of Revelation by using technology. For example they don't believe the
flying locust/scorpions to be an actual insect/arachnid. But rather something like a flying drone with a
laser or heat-ray that causes people pain.

I disagree with much of the book, because the author says it is the agents of the beast that are doing this.
Yet, if that is true... wouldn't the drones be causing the Christians harm instead of those who took the mark
of the beast? It seems those controlling the drones would be harming "the enemy" (Christians) rather than
themselves.

He also explains the 200 million horsemen away as modern day cavalry. They won't literally be on horses but
perhaps armed soldiers in Humvee's or some other mechanized equipment. I suppose this could be the case,
but again... the beast will be in control of the military at this time. Why would he be killing those who took his
mark and worshiped him?

One problem with turning all of this into figurative language... is that it makes it easy to dismiss what will
be happening as un-Bible related incidents.

Why is God doing all this? Why is He punishing the earth? Why is He pouring out His wrath on everyone?
Isn't He a God of love? Many people will find out during this time that love doesn't mean letting you do
whatever you want.

I believe God will do these things in a very obvious way. Even non-Christian unbelievers will not be able to deny
that the things that are happening all around them are the things it talk about in the Bible. I believe this is
God's way of giving them "a last chance". I believe some people will say "Oh my God, this is real. This is really happening,
just like the Bible said it would." I believe even some of these people will get saved because of this.

Of course the majority will still be hardened and refuse to repent.
Why is God pouring out His wrath on the earth? To prove to people He is real. His word is real. His power is real.
You refused to believe it before. But now it is blatantly obvious that I am God. You can still refuse to repent if
you want to... but here is the price. I believe even in all these catastrophe's God is showing love by giving
people evidence He exists, and that they can still repent even in these last days.

 

[B-A-C]

Armageddon... Some Bibles translate this as Har-Magedon, others as Tel-Meggido. Depending on what scholars you
follow this could be Mt Zion, Mt Sinai, an abstract-idealized location, or possibly even the ancient site of Meggido.
Har- Meggido translated means strong mountain or strong hill. There really are no mountains per se in the plains
of Meggido. However there is a small man-made hill (called a "tel") Near the ancient site of Meggido about 25 miles
southwest of the sea of Galilee.

In Rev 16:13; it says the dragon (Satan), the beast, and the false prophet (the beast's second in command)
open their mouths and three unclean spirits (demons?) that have a likeness of frogs come out. The way
this is worded it's difficult to tell if this three frogs from each of the three (nine total) or if it is just one
from demon from each one for a total of 3 frog demons.

It says these demons will go out to the kings of the whole world and gather them together for the war
of the "great day of the Lord". These armies will be gathered together at Har-Magedon. It is thought that many
of these will be from eastern Asian countries due to Rev 16:12; that says the Euphrates river will be dried up so
the kings of the east can come.

More about this war in a moment...

In Rev 16:17-21; the seventh bowl is poured out.
There is a great earthquake, in fact it is the largest earthquake ever in the history of mankind.
The city of Babylon is destroyed, it splits into three parts, and "the great cities of all the nations fell".
This earthquake will be so large, that it will affect many cities, not just one. In fact possibly most of the cities
on the earth. Perhaps a large-scale global earthquake.

Verse 20 goes on to say, "every mountain, and every island fled away, and were not found".
This earthquake could possible be so severe that even the islands of the sea, and the mountains will
be geographically changed.

Verse 21 says giant hailstones (about 100 pounds each) will fall from the sky upon men. Men will curse
God because this is happening.... this is an extremely severe judgment. I find it somewhat interesting
that even though they acknowledge God is making these things happen, they still will not repent and
come to Him.

.... next, the seven kings, and the ten kings.

 

[fightngwrmwood]

BAC - I very much appreciate this thorough commentary on tough subject. Thank you for your hard work on this and I am looking forward to reading more.

I wanted to interject (briefly) to your question:
"Why is God doing all this? Why is He punishing the earth? Why is He pouring out His wrath on everyone?
Isn't He a God of love? Many people will find out during this time that love doesn't mean letting you do
whatever you want."

There is a lot to dive into with that door you opened on what it means for Him to be truly loving and therefore totally just as well as totally merciful. In contrast to His perfect holiness, we have a death sentence from sin and all this stuff that falls out of His perfect plan.

At my church today, my pastor pointed out these two verses can be overused, particularly to comfort a fellow believer in a hard time, but it really does get to the heart of this why you brought up, that seems to come out as it should, and, knowing the Lord's goodness, it must be bring as many into His kingdom, and for these precious children, make it so that we are to be as holy and as like Jesus as possible.

Romans 8:28-29
"And we know that for those who love God all things work together those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."

I am still re-reading your comments and the Scriptures you posted because I do believe we were given them to have deeper and deeper understanding of Him and how He works, and am constantly in awe of how close He desires us to be. At the same time, for me, it is important to remember that in Jesus's day, Jewish scholars had stuff memorized and devoted their lives to the Scriptures and still missed the heart of it. I am so grateful for the basic idea of loving the Lord with everything you've got and loving others as much as you love yourself.

Still - part of loving Him is to learn about Who He is and how He works ....

So write on, my brother, and thank you again for devoting so much time to this topic.

 

[B-A-C]

We already talked quite about the Harlot and what city this might be, so I will skip the first half of chapter 17 and
jump down to verse 9.

Rev 17:9; "Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits,
Rev 17:10; and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.
Rev 17:11; "The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.
Rev 17:12; "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour.
Rev 17:13; "These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.
Rev 17:14; "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."
Rev 17:15; And he *said to me, "The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.
Rev 17:16; "And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.
Rev 17:17; "For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.
Rev 17:18; "The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth."

So the seven heads of the beast aren't only 7 mountains, but they are also 7 kings.
Five have already fallen, one is currently in power, and one is yet to come. The beast (who was, but is not currently in power)
was one of these seven kings, but he is also the eighth king. ( 8 of 7 is a little confusing ) but I take this to mean, that the
beast could be one of the original 7 kings (perhaps the 6th) and then the 7th king will reign for a while, but then the
beast (king number 6?) will be in power again. So only 7 kings, but 8 different leaderships of that kingdom. I admit
it's speculation and I don't understand it fully.

The ten horns are also ten kings. Seemingly different kings from the other seven. The seven kings of the beast appear
to be a progression of kings over a period of time. The ten kings of the horns appear to be ten kings (world leaders)
who are all in power at the same time. It says the beast will recognize them as kings for one hour. This could be either
a literal one hour, or it could possibly be figurative language to mean for a very short time. ( perhaps a few weeks).
In verse 13, it says these 10 kings have one single purpose... to give their kingdoms (power and authority) to the beast.

There has been much speculation about who these 10 kingdoms (countries) are and who the 10 kings (presidents, dictators,
and monarchs) might be. At one point there were 10 stars on the flag of the European Union. I heard more than a few
people say this must be the ten horns of the beast. But whoever they are, they will give the authority over their countries
to the beast. All of these kingdoms will wage war against the Lamb (Jesus) but of course Jesus will overcome them.

The ten kingdoms (and the beast )will be used to make war on the Harlot (the great evil city) and destroy her.

... to be continued ..

 

[Listening]

Most Christians believe there will be a time on earth in the near or distant future called the "tribulation".
This will possibly last 7 years, and will possibly be divided into two parts... each lasting approximately
3 1/2 years. The first 3 1/2 years is simply known as "the tribulation". The second 3 1/2 years is known
as "the great tribulation" because it's worse than the first tribulation.

The word "tribulation" has a longer definition than most words... trouble, distress, misery, trials,
unhappiness, sadness, sorrow, pain, grief, heartache, suffering, agony, travail....

None of it sounds like much fun.

Both Jesus and Paul mentions the tribulations of normal life ( John 16:33; Acts 14:22; )
but this is more than this.

During papal supremacy in which time the popes declared themselves the Holy Father; Lord And God and The supreme high priest Of the Universal church ( Church in heaven and earth ), 100 MILLION plus christians were murdered for refusing to bow to the Papal authority.
ESTIMATES OF THE NUMBER KILLED BY THE PAPACY IN THE MIDDLE AGES AND
LATER
Such a staggering number of saints killed by this monstrous blasphemer known as the pope ( daddy)
Is surely the antichrist; man of sin, the beast king of Rome who rules over the world by what God describes as the *****; The MOTHER OF HARLOTS that great city on seven hills holding a cup full of abominations covered in purple and scarlet and gold and precious stones and drunk with the blood of the saints.

Ten kings Did indeed rise at the same time as the papacy and these indeed did Give their kingdoms over to the beast king of Rome

These are differently reckoned up by interpreters: by Napier thus; Spain, France, Lombardy, England, Scotland, Denmark, Sweden, Hungary, Italy, and the exarchate of Ravenna: by Mr. Mede after this manner; the Britains in Britain, under Vortimer their king; the Saxons in the same place, under Hengist; the Franks in Gallia Belgica, or Celtics, under Childeric; the Burgundians in another part of France, under Gunderic; the Wisigoths in Aquitain, and part of Spain, under Theodoric; the Sueves and Alans in Gallaecia and Portugal, under Riciarius; the Vandals in Spain and Africa, under Genseric; the Almains in that part of Germany called Rhetia, under Sumanus; the Ostrogoths in Pannonia, and after in Italy, under Theodomir; and the Greeks in the rest of the empire, under Marcianus: and by another (u) writer they are accounted for in this way; the Almains in both the Rhetia, and in Pannonia, who rose in the year 356; the Ostrogoths, first in Pannonia, and then in Italy, in 377; the Wisigoths in Pannonia, and then in Italy, afterwards in France, and last of all in Spain, in 378; the Huns in Pannonia, and for some time throughout all Europe, in 378; the Britian Romans in Britain, and afterwards the Saxons, in 406; the Sueves, first in France, and then in Spain, in 407; the Alans, first in France, and then in Spain, in 407; the Vandals, first in France, then in Spain, afterwards in Africa, in 407; the Burgundians in France, in 407; the Franks in France, in 410.


And it is generally thought all these ten kingdoms were up by the year 450 at least. Though Dr. Allix makes the epocha of them A. D. 486, when the western empire was taken from the Romans, and fixes them in the following order; the Almains in Rhetia and Pannonia; the Franks in Belgica; the Anglo-Saxons in Britain; the Wisigoths in Gallia Aquitania and Hispania Tarraconensis; the Sueves and Alans in Portugal; the Vandals in Africa; the Burgundians in Gallia Sequanensis; the Ostrogoths in Pannonia, and afterwards in Italy; the Lombards in Pannonia, and the Heruli and Turcilingi, who conquered Augustulus: and though these kingdoms were thrown into different forms and shapes afterwards, yet it is remarkable they were just of this number; as, 1. Italy and Germany; 2. France; 3. Spain; 4. England with Ireland; 5. Scotland; 6. Hungary; 7. Poland with Lithuania; 8. Denmark, with Sweden and Norway, Sweden being since divided; 9. Portugal; 10. The Grecian empire seized by the Ottomans. And as these kings cannot be understood of single persons at the head of these kingdoms, or of so many kings succeeding one another; so neither is it necessary to consider these kingdoms as being in the same state, and made up of the same sort of people always; it is enough that they are in the same place, and within the empire; for we, may observe, that different things, at different times, are ascribed to them, or at least to some. They all are at first of one mind, and give their kingdom to the beast; then they, at least some of them, hate the *****, and burn her with fire; and yet others lament the destruction and burning of Rome, Revelation 17:16.

Which have received no kingdom as yet: in John's time, when the Pagan empire was in being, and the beast was not risen, with whom they were to reign; hence these horns have no crowns on them, Revelation 12:3.

But receive power as kings one hour with the beast; as soon as he was risen; and therefore the horns are represented with crowns upon them, Revelation 13:1. Their rise was with the Papal beast, who rose not to his supreme power and dignity until the western emperor, which let and hindered, was removed out of the way; which was done by the barbarous nations, who set up these kingdoms, which made way for the lordly and tyrannical government of the pope of Rome; so that he and they rose up together: and this may he meant by the "one hour"; namely, that at one and the same hour or season he came to his supreme authority and grandeur, and they received their kingly power with him; or this may denote the time of their continuance in their honour and greatness; it was but for an hour, or a short time, as that phrase sometimes signifies, Plm 1:15 and so the Ethiopic version renders it, "for one hour"; to which agrees the Arabic version,

and their power shall be of one hour: and this shall be "as kings"; for they only have the title of kings, but not sovereign power; they are vassals to the beast, the pope, who reigns over them, Revelation 17:18 and sets up kings in these kingdoms, and deposes them at pleasure; exalting himself above all that is called God, or above all civil magistrates; so that these have only the name, not the thing; they are as kings, and look like such, but are not really so; though what power they have, they receive not from the beast, but from God; the beast receives his power and authority, as well as seat, from the dragon; but civil power and magistracy is from God, who suffers these princes, and gives them up to such stupidity as to give their kingdom to the beast, and to exercise their power as he directs.

(u) De Excidio Antichristi apud Poli Synops. in loc.


Revelation 17:12 "The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.

 

[Listening]

We are now in the phase of the second beast out of the earth that has two horns like a lamb yet speaks like a dragon.
The first beast already having received a wound as if to death to one
Of it's heads.

 

[Listening]

The ten kingdoms (on the beast )will be used to make war on the Harlot (the great evil city) and destroy her.


Verse 16. - And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast;and the ten horns which thou sawest, and the beast. There is no authority for the ἐπι τὸ θηρίον of Erasmus except the Vulgate, in bestia, and, of course, the description given of the beast (Revelation 13:1, etc,). The two are spoken of separately, on account of the separate juris diction wielded according to vers. 32, 13. These shall hate the *****, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire;and shall burn her utterly with fire (Revised Version).