Thoughts on the Tribulation

[B-A-C]

Most Christians believe there will be a time on earth in the near or distant future called the "tribulation".
This will possibly last 7 years, and will possibly be divided into two parts... each lasting approximately
3 1/2 years. The first 3 1/2 years is simply known as "the tribulation". The second 3 1/2 years is known
as "the great tribulation" because it's worse than the first tribulation.

The word "tribulation" has a longer definition than most words... trouble, distress, misery, trials,
unhappiness, sadness, sorrow, pain, grief, heartache, suffering, agony, travail....

None of it sounds like much fun.

Both Jesus and Paul mentions the tribulations of normal life ( John 16:33; Acts 14:22; )
but this is more than this.

 

[B-A-C]

The tribulation is a series of events... these are mentioned as seven seals starting in Rev 6:1;
The first seal -- Rev 6:1-2; The rider on a White Horse; this is sometimes referred to as "cold war".
The second seal -- Rev 6:3-4; A red horse with a rider; this is "war".
The third seal -- Rev 6:5-6; A black horse with a rider; this is "famine";
The fourth seal -- Rev 6:7-8; An ashen horse with a rider... His name is "death";
The fifth seal -- Rev 6:9-11; Martyrs who have been slain because of their testimony.
The sixth seal -- Rev 6:12-17; terror and great earthquakes. "the wrath of the lamb".
This seems to carry over into Chapter 7... the four angels are given the power to harm the earth and the sea ( Rev 7:2; )
but are told not to do this until God seals the bond servants "on their foreheads". ( Rev 7:3; )
Rev 7:4-8; is about the 144,000 (12,000 from each tribe of Israel) Rev 7:4; says these are the sealed ones.
Rev 7:9-17; talks about the great multitude that comes out of the tribulation. ( Rev 7:14; )
Finally the 7th seal is is broken in Rev 8:1; -- This is 7 angels given 7 trumpets.
But before we get to the trumpets, bowls, peals of thunder, and woes... I would like to try to break down
the 7 seals and what they might mean.

 

[B-A-C]

The first seal - the cold war.

Rev 6:1; Then I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, "Come."
Rev 6:2; I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

This rider has a crown, a bow, and he goes out conquering... and to conquer.
Death isn't mentioned yet. (he is another rider.. later)
So I believe this is just wars won by threats, economic means, political means, and other means.
But no shots are fired in this war(s). People and nations will be conquered.
Both physically and spiritually. Nations will be absorbed by other nations, beliefs will be absorbed by
other beliefs.

 

[Dovegiven]

The first seal - the cold war.

Rev 6:1; Then I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, "Come."
Rev 6:2; I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

This rider has a crown, a bow, and he goes out conquering... and to conquer.
Death isn't mentioned yet. (he is another rider.. later)
So I believe this is just wars won by threats, economic means, political means, and other means.
But no shots are fired in this war(s). People and nations will be conquered.
Both physically and spiritually. Nations will be absorbed by other nations, beliefs will be absorbed by
other beliefs.

I assume you plan on comments.

The antichrist fits that rider. We might be seeing him ride now, one of the more recent armies he commands being ISIL At first his best effort would be to set up conquest, aligning with allies, damaging national defenses, funding surrogates to wear down any opposition. That could take months to a few years of preparation behind the scenes of what makes the news. Once it's all set up, the actual war could only take a few months to accomplish his goals.

The red horse rider will help get that done. He will succeed in routing all Christians and Jews as well as any of other non-jihadist Sunni Muslim religions occupying the ancient Roman Empire area, i.e. most of Europe, central Asia, and the northern end of the African continent, beginning Daniel's 70th week. Other Muslim sects are in danger of eradication. He gets center stage in scripture, and is getting it in the news now, if in fact it is him. The second rider is representative of WW3 in my opinion, inevitable because of what happens over there, like America was drawn into the WW2 European theater, then into the east Asia war.

We can't be effective in the kind of hand to hand combat to come, like what's happening no in Syria and Iraq, our President having decimated our capacity to wage a war like WW2 which required combat troops, millions of GIs, and a massive alliance of nations. We'll never have many hundreds of thousands of elite special forces, large ground forces, and a few thousand bombers which would be required to adequately cover such a large area of conflict soon to spread far beyond the short term goal of the Caliphate establishment and the funding needed to go global. Our bomber force is but a shadow of what would be needed, not practical anyway due to the enemy using women and children as shields. The door of opportunity to stop the current disaster in the middle east is closed, Israel left on her own. It will be bloody for them and their neighbors, but a remnant will survive.

 

[pajaro]

Most Christians believe there will be a time on earth in the near or distant future called the "tribulation".

The time of great tribulation is simply the falling away from the true gospel that the 'Christian' congregations experience as time progresses. The Holy Spirit is taken away from those who are left in the congregations, and the true believers, who still have the gospel and salvation, are not received by the congregations nor are they spiritually heard and understood there. Fallen, fallen is the great city (congregations fall in the spiritual sense), and the Bible says to the true believers: a " voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins".

For those who are truly saved, salvation is not taken from them and they are secure in Christ. For those who are unsaved, they will be relying on being a 'member' of this or that denomination or group perhaps, or on some arm of the flesh, perhaps how much popularity they have in their 'church' or how many people acknowledge them there. For those who are saved, they will be relying only on Christ. They will have in their hearts to follow Christ and will follow him in their hearts without respect to human titles or groups made by men.

 

[Waggles]

Most Christians believe there will be a time on earth in the near or distant future called the "tribulation".
This will possibly last 7 years, and will possibly be divided into two parts... each lasting approximately
3 1/2 years. The first 3 1/2 years is simply known as "the tribulation". The second 3 1/2 years is known
as "the great tribulation" because it's worse than the first tribulation.

This is all wrong from the very start. Why do people keep on with the misreading of Daniel.
Mathew 24, etc. has already begun, and we all will be a part of it.
Have you the faith and strength to hold on to the end, when the Lord shall return for the overcomers?

 

[Bendito]

The time of great tribulation is simply the falling away from the true gospel that the 'Christian' congregations experience as time progresses. The Holy Spirit is taken away from those who are left in the congregations, and the true believers, who still have the gospel and salvation, are not received by the congregations nor are they spiritually heard and understood there. Fallen, fallen is the great city (congregations fall in the spiritual sense), and the Bible says to the true believers: a " voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins".

For those who are truly saved, salvation is not taken from them and they are secure in Christ. For those who are unsaved, they will be relying on being a 'member' of this or that denomination or group perhaps, or on some arm of the flesh, perhaps how much popularity they have in their 'church' or how many people acknowledge them there. For those who are saved, they will be relying only on Christ. They will have in their hearts to follow Christ and will follow him in their hearts without respect to human titles or groups made by men.

Sorry pajaro. That falling away is NOT the tribulation period. The event in 2 Thessalonians comes immediately before the tribulation period. The Holy Spirit cannot be taken out at that time because Jesus said " No man can come to me without he is drawn by the Father, through the Holy Spirit"

Oh! From the rest of your answer you believe in mid tribulation rapture.....That leaves us with little basis for discussion, though it leaves lots of room for argument

 

[pajaro]

Sorry pajaro. That falling away is NOT the tribulation period. The event in 2 Thessalonians comes immediately before the tribulation period. The Holy Spirit cannot be taken out at that time because Jesus said " No man can come to me without he is drawn by the Father, through the Holy Spirit"

Oh! From the rest of your answer you believe in mid tribulation rapture.....That leaves us with little basis for discussion, though it leaves lots of room for argument

Hi Bendito,

I would agree that the falling away from the true gospel that occurs in the congregations happens first, and then the Holy Spirit is withdrawn completely. Perhaps that is what you are saying as well? I appreciate your point of refinement in this, since the term tribulation is more correctly used for the time when the Holy Spirit is completely withdrawn. 2 Thessalonians says, "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." I see the "he" who letteth (restrains) sin as being the Holy Spirit, and the the Holy Spirit is said to be taken out of the way at a point. When the Holy Spirit is taken away from the congregations, then the voice of the bridegroom (Jesus) will be heard no more there because people won't have the Holy Spirit there to hear spiritually any longer. Rev 18:"and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee". I don't see the 'man of sin' that is revealed as being a single individual who physically sits down on a throne in which people see him sitting there, or some such, to rule diabolically. Rather, I see that as being a reference to the fact that Satan is then ruling and reigning spiritually in the congregations.

As far as your thinking that I am mid trib rapture, that probably doesn't fit me. First of all, I don't subscribe to the notion of rapture in the same way most do, with a zipping up into the upper stratosphere or some such. I not quite sure where your assertion that I am mid trib comes from, but perhaps you can elaborate. It might be interesting.

 

[B-A-C]

This is all wrong from the very start. Why do people keep on with the misreading of Daniel.
Mathew 24, etc. has already begun, and we all will be a part of it.
Have you the faith and strength to hold on to the end, when the Lord shall return for the overcomers?

This isn't only taken from Daniel.
This is also taken from Rev 11:3; and Rev 12:6; also Rev 12:4; (these are of course quoting Daniel in some places).

 

[Bendito]

Hi Bendito,

I would agree that the falling away from the true gospel that occurs in the congregations happens first, and then the Holy Spirit is withdrawn completely. Perhaps that is what you are saying as well? I appreciate your point of refinement in this, since the term tribulation is more correctly used for the time when the Holy Spirit is completely withdrawn. 2 Thessalonians says, "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." I see the "he" who letteth (restrains) sin as being the Holy Spirit, and the the Holy Spirit is said to be taken out of the way at a point. When the Holy Spirit is taken away from the congregations, then the voice of the bridegroom (Jesus) will be heard no more there because people won't have the Holy Spirit there to hear spiritually any longer. Rev 18:"and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee". I don't see the 'man of sin' that is revealed as being a single individual who physically sits down on a throne in which people see him sitting there, or some such, to rule diabolically. Rather, I see that as being a reference to the fact that Satan is then ruling and reigning spiritually in the congregations.

As far as your thinking that I am mid trib rapture, that probably doesn't fit me. First of all, I don't subscribe to the notion of rapture in the same way most do, with a zipping up into the upper stratosphere or some such. I not quite sure where your assertion that I am mid trib comes from, but perhaps you can elaborate. It might be interesting.

Well, little brother, we're not totally agreed. The falling away comes first, apostasy, then comes the catching up of the bride. Then comes the tribulation period.
The "one who lets" that is taken out of the way cannot be the Holy Spirit. Because if the Holy Spirit was taken away nobody would be saved after that point.

I took you to be mid (or post trib) in your rapture beliefs because you still have the church in the tribulation period. My mistake. But if you cannot subscribe to a catching up to meet the Lord in the air? You cannot pick and choose what you will believe. If the Word says it, and it does, you accept it. Why? If you decide that God's Word is true here and false elsewhere.....How can you trust any of it?

 

[Bendito]

This is all wrong from the very start. Why do people keep on with the misreading of Daniel.
Mathew 24, etc. has already begun, and we all will be a part of it.
Have you the faith and strength to hold on to the end, when the Lord shall return for the overcomers?

Um...Please elucidate. Mathew 24 is talking about Jesus' second coming. Not the catching up of the bride. Read Matt 24 in the Complete Jewish Bible. It really clarifies things. Wow! So we are seeing some of things now...wars and rumors of wars, famines, Christians jailed for their beliefs, but also Jesus talks of many being killed because of Him. The Jews. Then He talks about after the rapture,(but not the rapture itself) the desecration of the temple and the Jews having to escape the wrath of the antichrist.
So yes! I believe we are seeing the start of Matthew 24 but one needs to get the entire story from the Word. Its kind of like a treasure hunt, in that, there is a little here and a little there. Search the Word, right? Find all of the pieces and put them together like a jigsaw puzzle

 

[pajaro]

Well, little brother, we're not totally agreed. The falling away comes first, apostasy, then comes the catching up of the bride. Then comes the tribulation period.
The "one who lets" that is taken out of the way cannot be the Holy Spirit. Because if the Holy Spirit was taken away nobody would be saved after that point.

Thanks Bendito,

I see the Holy Spirit (he who lets) as being removed and absent from the congregations during the tribulation period, whereas the Holy Spirit had been present in the congregations throughout the church age. The true (saved) believers come out of the congregations and they still have the Holy Spirit and are still saved. Remember how righteous (saved) Lot comes out of Sodom, but Sodom itself has no more salvation.

 

[Bendito]

Thanks Bendito,

I see the Holy Spirit (he who lets) as being removed and absent from the congregations during the tribulation period, whereas the Holy Spirit had been present in the congregations throughout the church age. The true (saved) believers come out of the congregations and they still have the Holy Spirit and are still saved. Remember how righteous (saved) Lot comes out of Sodom, but Sodom itself has no more salvation.

If you dig a bit deeper (each thing the bible says is backed up in other places in the book). You will find the bible talking of the rapture, (the catching up) and you will find it talks about the second coming of Jesus. They are not the same event.
As to the Holy Spirit being the 'One who lets' That is not correct. The Holy Spirit cannot be taken out at that time...Look at it.
The day of the Lord will not occur until certain events have come to pass 2Thessalonians 2:1 .
2Thessalonians 2 Chain of events....Apostasy, He who lets is taken out, the man of sin is revealed, He will allow the Jews to build their temple and worship in it for three years then he will break covenant and take the temple and set himself up as god in it.. Now during all this time, people are being saved..144000 Jews (who finally take their place and begin preaching the good news) and many many others are saved as well. This would not be possible if the Holy Spirit was not there anymore.
These verses do not talk of the second coming, but on the catching up of 'he who lets'.
1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53; Luke 17:34-37; Revelation 3:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; There are several others for you to search out. Do not confuse the catching up of the bride with the second coming of Jesus.

 

[B-A-C]

It may help here... to talk about something called the "Last Days" mentioned frequently in the Bible.

Isa 2:2; Now it will come about that
In the last days
The mountain of the house of the Lord
Will be established as the chief of the mountains,
And will be raised above the hills;
And all the nations will stream to it.
Isa 2:3; And many peoples will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
That He may teach us concerning His ways
And that we may walk in His paths.”
For the law will go forth from Zion
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
Isa 2:4; And He will judge between the nations,
And will render decisions for many peoples;
And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not lift up sword against nation,
And never again will they learn war.

Could the chief of the mountains.. this mountain of the house of the Lord be the New Jerusalem?

Jer 23:16; Thus says the Lord of hosts,
“Do not listen to the words of the prophets who are prophesying to you.
They are leading you into futility;
They speak a vision of their own imagination,
Not from the mouth of the Lord.
Jer 23:17; “They keep saying to those who despise Me,
‘The Lord has said, “You will have peace”’;
And as for everyone who walks in the stubbornness of his own heart,
They say, ‘Calamity will not come upon you.’
Jer 23:18; “But who has stood in the council of the Lord,
That he should see and hear His word?
Who has given heed to His word and listened?
Jer 23:19; “Behold, the storm of the Lord has gone forth in wrath,
Even a whirling tempest;
It will swirl down on the head of the wicked.
Jer 23:20; “The anger of the Lord will not turn back
Until He has performed and carried out the purposes of His heart;
In the last days you will clearly understand it.
Jer 23:21; “I did not send these prophets,
But they ran.
I did not speak to them,
But they prophesied.
Jer 23:22; “But if they had stood in My council,
Then they would have announced My words to My people,
And would have turned them back from their evil way
And from the evil of their deeds.

This is mostly talking about false prophets who claim to be from the Lord, but he did not send them out.
It also talks about those "who walk in the stubbornness of their own heart".
It says the anger of the Lord will not be turned back until He has performed His purposes against these people.
You will understand what this means "in the last days".

Ezek 38:16; also talks about the last days, It says Gog (Mid Asia) will come up against Israel to cover the land.
This is frequently taken as a prophecy of Armageddon ( Rev 14:19-20; ) a battle so large and fierce, that the blood
from the battle will as deep as a horses bridle (4 to 5 feet) deep for a distance of 200 miles. That's a lot of blood.

In Hosea 3:5; it says the sons of Israel will return to God and seek the Lord, and they will come trembling to the Lord
and to His goodness in the last days.

Micah 4:1; is very similar to Isa 2:2; above. The mountain of the Lord established in the "last days".

When we jump to the New testament, we hear about the last days in Acts 2:17; (this is quoting a verse in Joel 2:28; )
Pentecostal believe this time is now, and people will start having dreams and visions, and prophecies about God.

In 2nd Timothy, Paul mentions the difficult times of the last days.

2 Tim 3:1; But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.
2 Tim 3:2; For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
2 Tim 3:3; unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,
2 Tim 3:4; treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
2 Tim 3:5; holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.
2 Tim 3:6; For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses,
2 Tim 3:7; always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2 Tim 3:8; Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith.
2 Tim 3:9; But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as Jannes’s and Jambres’s folly was also.

If there ever was a time when verses 1 thru 4 were true, it certainly seems to be now more than ever.
Some of these people even hold on to a "form of godliness". But by their lifestyles they deny it's power to change them.
Always learning, but never able to come to the knowledge of truth... I see some of this on TalkJesus in certain forums
even this week. Several people show them the folly of their thinking, and give them several scriptures. Yet they simply
skip over those scriptures as if they don't exist, to support their ways of thinking.
Jannes and Jambres are thought to be Pharaoh's sorcerers that Moses and Aaron contended with in Exodus.

 

[B-A-C]

Now, the "last days" aren't really the end of time... but rather the end of the age. The Bible mentions certain era's
and ages in God's plan. The last days are also mentioned in James 5:3; and 2 Pet 3:3-7;

What does this have to do with the tribulation? The tribulation is the execution of the events in these prophecies.
It is God's wrath being poured out on the earth.

 

[B-A-C]

As I mention in post #2 above, the tribulation is broken into a series of events... seals, trumpets, bowls, woes, loud thunders, etc...

Some people believe the 7 seals are currently taking place right now. Some believe that the first 6 of the 7 seals themselves are
not part of the actual tribulation. But even if they aren't they are a 'pre-cursor' of sorts to the events of the tribulation.
In fact the 7th seal mentioned in Rev 8:1; is when the 7 angels are given the 7 trumpets. Things get a little more specific here.

 

[B-A-C]

The seven trumpets.

1st trumpet -- Rev 8:7, hail, and fire, and blood are thrown to the earth. Possibly this is large hailstones, fiery meteors, and blood
this will cause. A third of the trees, the grass, and vegetation (presumably even crops) are burned up.

2nd trumpet -- Rev 8:8-9; a great mountain burning like fire is thrown into the seas. Possibly a large meteor.
a Third of all living creatures in the sea are killed, a third of the ships are destroyed, and a third of the seas become
blood (presumably from the meteor that kills the sea creatures, and those on the ships).

3rd trumpet -- Rev 8:10-11; a great star falls from heaven burning like a torch... possibly another meteor.. possibly
figurative language here. In any case, a third of the rivers become poisoned and many people die from drinking
the water "because it was made bitter".

... to be continued... more trumpets..

 

[B-A-C]

4th trumpet -- Rev 8:12-13; a third of the sun, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars are darkened.
This is usually taken to mean the day will still last 24 hours, however... for a third of the normal "daytime"
hours, the sun will be darkened.. perhaps even pitch black like a solar eclipse.
for a third of the normal "nighttime" hours, the moon and stars with darkened, again possibly a pitch black
situation.

This verse if often taken in conjunction with Matt 24:29; Mark 13:24; Luke 21:25; and Acts 2:20;
Possibly Rev 6:12; also.. but this is usually taken a s a separate event.

In Rev 8:13; we see the phrase "woe, woe, woe, for the last three trumpets are about to sound".
The last three trumpets are also known as the 3 woes.

... to be continued... the 3 woes (last 3 trumpets)

 

[Chad]

I've been fascinated with the end times prophetic teachings in Scripture, especially Rapture / Tribulation period. We've been given much warning signs by Christ and we should be convicted to walk as light, and live as salt to the earth.

A few other related threads on the subjects

The Great Tribulation
Rapture & Second Coming
Evidence For A PreTribulation Rapture

 

[B-A-C]

A couple of things to stop and ponder here....

If the Christians are still on the earth at this time (meaning there is no pre-trib).
They will be experiencing these things. I personally believe many people will get saved
during the tribulation. If the rapture has already happened, then Christians will be
spared from these things.