Thoughts on Job

[Hekuran]

You are joking! Right?!

Absolutely dead serious. Any thoughtful person will see that the world is terribly unjust. The Book of Job gives us a way to confront and explore all the complexities of the suffering in the world. Of course, none of the answers are simple or straightforward.

For what it's worth, I think a lot of this thread misses the heart of the story. It seems to me that the role of the satan in the drama is not central to the meaning of the book. He's there at the beginning as part of the set-up of the scenario, then fades away after chapter 2, and does not come back to the foreground again.

The real interest is the back and forth between Job and his friends. What are they to make of the terrible suffering that Job endures?

 

[Bendito]

Sometimes dear brother it's not really about the kids but about God's will and purpose.
Example: John 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Read this Dear Brother in a devotional by our Sister in Christ Lady Loves Jesus this morning and the verse reminded me of your post. Sometimes difficult to accept, even for me when I look at my wife and what she is going through. However, ultimately I look to it to be to the Glory of God! Alleluia!

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

OK...Let me put it this way....I wonder why, sometimes, Christians think its Gods will to steal, kill, and destroy....that's Satan's forte'

 

[Bendito]

Absolutely dead serious. Any thoughtful person will see that the world is terribly unjust. The Book of Job gives us a way to confront and explore all the complexities of the suffering in the world. Of course, none of the answers are simple or straightforward.

For what it's worth, I think a lot of this thread misses the heart of the story. It seems to me that the role of the satan in the drama is not central to the meaning of the book. He's there at the beginning as part of the set-up of the scenario, then fades away after chapter 2, and does not come back to the foreground again.

The real interest is the back and forth between Job and his friends. What are they to make of the terrible suffering that Job endures?

If this is serious, I strongly suggest that Christians get to know the God they claim. They obviously do not know the God spoken of in the book of Job. Or the God we claim to serve today.

 

[Hekuran]

If this is serious, I strongly suggest that Christians get to know the God they claim. They obviously do not know the God spoken of in the book of Job. Or the God we claim to serve today.

Honestly, read the whole book from beginning to end and see how it grapples with the questions of injustice and suffering. Let the inspired word of God speak for itself.

 

[Bendito]

@Wired 4 Fishen

I think this is one of those doctrinal studies where the answer is somewhere in between both "sides". Kind of like the blind men and the elephant. We all see different parts of the whole and it is surely "like a tree!" or "like a wall" or "like a rope!" Blind Men and the Elephant

I do agree that the devil has no power over us and that we as Christians give him too much credit .. "the devil made me do it" or "God punished me" when in fact we open ourselves up to temptation, and we reap what we sow.

We are totally in agreement there (I think! ) :smile:

But to say that all bad things that happen to us in life (tragedies etc) are because we opened ourselves up to fear or we sinned in some way, I do not see as being scriptural. We are not to think it strange when we have fiery trials. And some of what befalls us is simply because we live in a fallen world - God or Satan do not necessarily send the tornado that tears our house down IMO.

As far as "allowing" - I don't know how it works with natural disasters or with other tragedies, but when it comes to spiritual temptation, it appears from this verse that God has a certain "limiting hand" in this... so in that case, it could be argued that he ALLOWS or DISALLOWS a temptation, or at least the severity of it:

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it. 1 Corinthians 10:13

Our ability to endure, however, may not be very great if we have opened ourselves up to thinking lustful thoughts or being lifted up in pride, or given over to fear. We are to have our hearts set on God. We cannot blame him for allowing a temptation that "made us fall" but have to look at our own hearts.

Chad4Him Let me say this....If WE have dominion in the Earth, and we do; If WE rule and reign in the Earth, and we're supposed to, then it's only because WE allow it that Satan can do anything to us....God has put a hedge between us and Satan but we lower it all the time....Allowing Satan free reign over us. We're like the king that bowed his knee to the stable boy...He made that stable boy king over himself! Why would we do that?!
Satan lies to us, and we get sucked in like a newborn baby when we have the Word of God telling us the truth of any matter Satan comes to us with.
If Christians would simply believe God's Word and act on it, they would have little to no trouble in this world. And the world would be much less the hell it is becoming.

 

[Bendito]

Honestly, read the whole book from beginning to end and see how it grapples with the questions of injustice and suffering. Let the inspired word of God speak for itself.

I've read the book of Job several times....without the religious nonsense

 

[Christ4Ever]

OK...Let me put it this way....I wonder why, sometimes, Christians think its Gods will to steal, kill, and destroy....that's Satan's forte'

It's more a matter of perspective brother. For instance, the areas you mentioned above, steal, kill and destroy etc. are seen differently by us then by God. How can He steal what already belongs to Him? Kill that which He gave life to? Destroy what He made? All life is alive by the Grace of God as the Creator, and Who has dictated in His Creation its limitations due to preset conditions that we may or may not be aware of and the same could be said for kill, destroy. Which if one were honest are not concepts to associate with God, for we can't give Him attributes/capabilities/absolutes that are really reflective of our limitations and not His. Much less reason the why of it. (Numbers 23:9, Isaiah 55:8-9)

I mean think about it brother. I think I've mentioned this before, if not here on other threads. For God is Love, 1 John 4:16, but before Christ Jesus whoever contemplated or even conceived John 3:16? We know it to be true, but do we understand it? Jesus willingly went to the Cross, John 10:18, not for those who Loved Him, but for those who don't even know the real concept of Love. 1 John 4:19. I repeat, that here is God willing to manifest Himself as Man only to go to the Cross for His Creation that has no love for Him???? Unimaginable, yet true Dear Bendito.

Would love to stay and even review more closely what I have written here, but need to go back to work from my lunch. Must leave it in God's hands to have touched on what is needed to be communicated, with His Eternal Love of Christ Jesus. Adios por el momento.

Love you brother.
Nick
<><

 

[Chad4Him]

Chad4Him Let me say this....If WE have dominion in the Earth, and we do; If WE rule and reign in the Earth, and we're supposed to, then it's only because WE allow it that Satan can do anything to us....God has put a hedge between us and Satan but we lower it all the time....Allowing Satan free reign over us. We're like the king that bowed his knee to the stable boy...He made that stable boy king over himself! Why would we do that?!
Satan lies to us, and we get sucked in like a newborn baby when we have the Word of God telling us the truth of any matter Satan comes to us with.
If Christians would simply believe God's Word and act on it, they would have little to no trouble in this world. And the world would be much less the hell it is becoming.

Matthew 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
.....

10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

1 Peter 5: 10 And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

1 Peter 1:6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in various trials, 7so that the authenticity of your faith— more precious than gold, which perishes even thoughrefined by fire— may result in praise, glory, andhonor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Acts 5:40 At this, they yielded to Gamaliel. They called the apostles in and had them flogged. Then they ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and released them. 41The apostles left theSanhedrin, rejoicing that they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name.

1 Peter 4:14
If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.

1 Peter 4:16
But if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but glorify God that you bear that name.

If our trials are a result of our sin, then why would Jesus call us blessed if we have trials? To me that does not make sense.

I realize that a number of the verses above talk about other people persecuting us (and they may be messengers of Satan). But others of the verses do not mention this but I believe are talking about other afflictions.

 

[Bendito]

It's more a matter of perspective brother. For instance, the areas you mentioned above, steal, kill and destroy etc. are seen differently by us then by God. How can He steal what already belongs to Him? Kill that which He gave life to? Destroy what He made? All life is alive by the Grace of God as the Creator, and Who has dictated in His Creation its limitations due to preset conditions that we may or may not be aware of and the same could be said for kill, destroy. Which if one were honest are not concepts to associate with God, for we can't give Him attributes/capabilities/absolutes that are really reflective of our limitations and not His. Much less reason the why of it. (Numbers 23:9, Isaiah 55:8-9)

I mean think about it brother. I think I've mentioned this before, if not here on other threads. For God is Love, 1 John 4:16, but before Christ Jesus whoever contemplated or even conceived John 3:16? We know it to be true, but do we understand it? Jesus willingly went to the Cross, John 10:18, not for those who Loved Him, but for those who don't even know the real concept of Love. 1 John 4:19. I repeat, that here is God willing to manifest Himself as Man only to go to the Cross for His Creation that has no love for Him???? Unimaginable, yet true Dear Bendito.

Would love to stay and even review more closely what I have written here, but need to go back to work from my lunch. Must leave it in God's hands to have touched on what is needed to be communicated, with His Eternal Love of Christ Jesus. Adios por el momento.

Love you brother.
Nick
<><

What perspective makes killing a mans ten children, love? What makes giving a man boils and the like, love. That is not love at all...It's the act of an enemy.

 

[Chad4Him]

What perspective makes killing a mans ten children, love? What makes giving a man boils and the like, love. That is not love at all...It's the act of an enemy.

Don't mean to interrupt your conversation but is someone saying that God actually did the killing? What I have been hearing is that God did not stop Satan from killing Job's children or sending boils. Maybe I missed something.

And maybe to you that is one and the same.

 

[Bendito]

Don't mean to interrupt your conversation but is someone saying that God actually did the killing? What I have been hearing is that God did not stop Satan from killing Job's children or sending boils. Maybe I missed something.

And maybe to you that is one and the same.

LOL Whats the difference between ordering a killing, and pulling the trigger? Or knowing it would happen and doing nothing?
We live in a REAL world...There is right or wrong, sin or righteousness. The thing is black or white....In our real world there are NO GREY AREAS. One cannot philpsophize sin away. If God orchestrated the death of Jobs kids then God is a killer. Simple as that.

 

[Quantrill]

LOL Whats the difference between ordering a killing, and pulling the trigger? Or knowing it would happen and doing nothing?
We live in a REAL world...There is right or wrong, sin or righteousness. The thing is black or white....In our real world there are NO GREY AREAS. One cannot philpsophize sin away. If God orchestrated the death of Jobs kids then God is a killer. Simple as that.

There is no difference. It was God's responsibility.

Concerning Josephs being sold and thrown into prison, etc. etc. why did he say to his brothers, you meant it for evil, but God meant it for God. (Gen. 50:20) Why? Because he recognized this was God's hand.

You don't like a God that ordered the killing of anothers children. What about a God that ordered the killing of His own Son. What do you think of a God like that? I guess you better not believe that either, because it is just so....terrible.

Quantrill

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

My comment about you forgetting the hedge was in response to you saying Job was getting attacked with the firey darts of satan and was doubting and fearing. Thus I wanted to remind you, that could not be the case as God had a hedge about him. See?

As I have said before. You truly need to learn how your enemy works.

The hedge does nothing about thoughts.

Blessing blockers? How old are you? That is the kind of thing you read in Sunday School elementary classes.

You simply have no understanding in this area.

 

[Bendito]

As I have said before. You truly need to learn how your enemy works.

The hedge does nothing about thoughts.




You simply have no understanding in this area.

The way some Christians see God, and how he works, is making me feel sick to my stomach! I've had enough....I'm out of this discussion, before I puke.

 

[Chad4Him]

Matthew 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
.....

10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

1 Peter 5: 10 And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

1 Peter 1:6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in various trials, 7so that the authenticity of your faith— more precious than gold, which perishes even thoughrefined by fire— may result in praise, glory, andhonor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Acts 5:40 At this, they yielded to Gamaliel. They called the apostles in and had them flogged. Then they ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and released them. 41The apostles left theSanhedrin, rejoicing that they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name.

1 Peter 4:14
If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.

1 Peter 4:16
But if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but glorify God that you bear that name.

If our trials are a result of our sin, then why would Jesus call us blessed if we have trials? To me that does not make sense.

I realize that a number of the verses above talk about other people persecuting us (and they may be messengers of Satan). But others of the verses do not mention this but I believe are talking about other afflictions.

@Bendito Hey hey before you leave!! :smile:

What are your thoughts on this post?

 

[Bendito]

@Bendito Hey hey before you leave!! :smile:

What are your thoughts on this post?

You can PM me.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

The way some Christians see God, and how he works, is making me feel sick to my stomach! I've had enough....I'm out of this discussion, before I puke.

I thought I was but that last reply was so sad .
Any way its draining when it gets down to intellectual understanding in Spiritual things.
Time to get into some Praise and Worship.
Blessings

 

[Quantrill]

As I have said before. You truly need to learn how your enemy works.

The hedge does nothing about thoughts.




You simply have no understanding in this area.

How do you know?

No, I left third grade sunday school years ago.

Quantrill

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

it appears from this verse that God has a certain "limiting hand" in this... so in that case, it could be argued that he ALLOWS or DISALLOWS a temptation, or at least the severity of it:

Greetings,
In order for this to be true there must be some factors in it.

One must be walking according to His Word (ways)

If we walk in His Ways then we walk in His Strength. Nothing would be to big.

However we walk after our own ways then we are left unto our own strength to handle temptation.

I really like your entire reply because it brings up some good questions.

I want to reply but I don't have the quiet time to do so.
So either in this thread or a new thread we can continue.

There is a lot within your full reply
Thank you
Blessings

 

[Dovegiven]

Sorry that 'this' is out of context to the rest of the thread, but I really want to respond to this.

Fear is Not 'sin' to a Christian or anyone else. The context Of 'fear'. A healthy 'fear' of fire, for instance. Fearing fire Can save a life. We're usually taught as kids to 'not get too close to a fire, we Might get burned'. Getting burned is Painful.

Fear can Also end up being a 'phobia' of 'whatever' and that's usually not healthy. A fear of heights is going to keep us closer to the ground. Therefore less likely to fall and maybe break a bone.

Claustrophobia -- fear of closed in places. Like an elevator or a closet, etc.

But fear Can be a protection for a person. And, maybe a person would rather think of that as a strong dislike of something.

And Scripture says to 'fear God'. A better translation would be having a great deal of 'awe' for God. A feeling of 'awesomeness' towards God.

We are to be anxious for nothing. We Are to take everything to God in prayer.

No one will ever find me on a ledge of a window -- at least not on purpose. Or the edge of a cliff. And I won't be in the middle of a group of people. On the edge of the row and preferably in back.

1 John 4:17-19 (KJV)
17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us.

I will not teach my children and children's children to fear fire, as in running away from the fireplace, but to highly respect it's potential. Along that line is taught a healthy fear of God, hurricanes, traffic in the street, disease pathogens (wash those hands), offers of pills from fellows, etc.

I will teach them along this line:
Philippians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
1 Timothy 5:20
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
2 Timothy 1:7
7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

This thread has involved some accusing Job of fear (as a sin) over possible sin among his children, though the scriptures don't make that claim about the children of Job. My comment was in fact in line with the thread. Please learn what God says about fear.