Thoughts on Job

[Dovegiven]

Absolutely dead serious. Any thoughtful person will see that the world is terribly unjust. The Book of Job gives us a way to confront and explore all the complexities of the suffering in the world. Of course, none of the answers are simple or straightforward.

For what it's worth, I think a lot of this thread misses the heart of the story. It seems to me that the role of the satan in the drama is not central to the meaning of the book. He's there at the beginning as part of the set-up of the scenario, then fades away after chapter 2, and does not come back to the foreground again.

The real interest is the back and forth between Job and his friends. What are they to make of the terrible suffering that Job endures?

Satan stayed involved by distorting truth of God to the ears of Job's neighbors, appealing to "human" reason, intellect, logic instead to the exclusion of truth of God.

 

[Dovegiven]

Chad4Him Let me say this....If WE have dominion in the Earth, and we do; If WE rule and reign in the Earth, and we're supposed to, then it's only because WE allow it that Satan can do anything to us....God has put a hedge between us and Satan but we lower it all the time....Allowing Satan free reign over us. We're like the king that bowed his knee to the stable boy...He made that stable boy king over himself! Why would we do that?!
Satan lies to us, and we get sucked in like a newborn baby when we have the Word of God telling us the truth of any matter Satan comes to us with.
If Christians would simply believe God's Word and act on it, they would have little to no trouble in this world. And the world would be much less the hell it is becoming.

Preach it Brother! TRUTH reigns in that post.

 

[Dovegiven]

@Wired 4 Fishen

I think this is one of those doctrinal studies where the answer is somewhere in between both "sides". Kind of like the blind men and the elephant. We all see different parts of the whole and it is surely "like a tree!" or "like a wall" or "like a rope!" Blind Men and the Elephant

I do agree that the devil has no power over us and that we as Christians give him too much credit .. "the devil made me do it" or "God punished me" when in fact we open ourselves up to temptation, and we reap what we sow.

We are totally in agreement there (I think! ) :smile:

But to say that all bad things that happen to us in life (tragedies etc) are because we opened ourselves up to fear or we sinned in some way, I do not see as being scriptural. We are not to think it strange when we have fiery trials. And some of what befalls us is simply because we live in a fallen world - God or Satan do not necessarily send the tornado that tears our house down IMO.

As far as "allowing" - I don't know how it works with natural disasters or with other tragedies, but when it comes to spiritual temptation, it appears from this verse that God has a certain "limiting hand" in this... so in that case, it could be argued that he ALLOWS or DISALLOWS a temptation, or at least the severity of it:

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it. 1 Corinthians 10:13

Our ability to endure, however, may not be very great if we have opened ourselves up to thinking lustful thoughts or being lifted up in pride, or given over to fear. We are to have our hearts set on God. We cannot blame him for allowing a temptation that "made us fall" but have to look at our own hearts.

AMEN. What would have been the outcome of Lot and his daughters had they ignored the warning of the angels? His wife was immersed in the culture of Sodom, enough to second guess wisdom, looking back while fleeing. Lot might have self-justified staying put because he got to sit as a judge in the city gate. Both could have been "good" parents staying back to help their children and friends. If an angel visited you to say you need to move out of a city immediately, but you dismissed that, and that city turned out to be a Ground Zero while you slept there, would God let your home be the only thing left standing? No.

 

[Hekuran]

Satan stayed involved by distorting truth of God to the ears of Job's neighbors, appealing to "human" reason, intellect, logic instead to the exclusion of truth of God.

That's possible. Who knows? My point was that the writer of the Book of Job doesn't draw attention to the role of the satan beyond the first couple of chapters. All the emphasis is on Job and his friends trying to make sense of what has happened.

 

[Christ4Ever]

What perspective makes killing a mans ten children, love? What makes giving a man boils and the like, love. That is not love at all...It's the act of an enemy.

First God did not kill the man's ten children or give Job boils and the like. God allowed it to happen, because it was Satan that conceived and perpetrated the acts you speak of up to but not including the death of Job. Meaning the real question you are really wanting to know is why did God set the conditions that allowed Satan to do what he did?

You also can't address any of this in the perspective by defining certain acts allowed to be done by God as not being loving. For by man's standards, who truly lack understanding without the Holy Spirit? God's Acts of Love are incomprehensible, sometimes even with the Holy Spirit. Otherwise by what you have so far described as acts of God, what He did by sending His Son Jesus to the Cross to be Crucified could never be seen as an act of Love, and yet that is exactly what God says it is! Or do you believe because He is God that somehow it doesn't count?

Perspective brother. There was a course I took on truth. They asked a variety of folks, from different religions and beliefs including Christians a simple question. "What is truth?" The answers were varied in length with theologically, metaphysical, esoteric type responses. Yet the only one I remember that stood out like a beacon of light in a whole lot of darkness came from a teenage artistic boy in a wheel chair. It touched my very Spirit upon hearing it and is probably why I remember today though it has been years since I took this class. This child's response to the question was: "Truth is what you see when you look through the eyes of God".

I leave you with this verse and my hope and prayer a greater understanding of our own limitations in having complete clarity, even with the Holy Spirit in us. Realizing that if I allowed man's perspective have sway over all that I read in Scripture I could not help but agree with what you have been saying. However, if I were to do so, I'd have no room for Spiritual understanding of God's Word.

for we see now through a mirror obscurely, and then face to face; now I know in part, and then I shall fully know, as also I was known; 1 Corinthians 13:12

With the Love of Christ Jesus Dear Brother.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Dovegiven]

That's possible. Who knows? My point was that the writer of the Book of Job doesn't draw attention to the role of the satan beyond the first couple of chapters. All the emphasis is on Job and his friends trying to make sense of what has happened.

The end of the book emphsaizes God's perspective. The middle chapters indict some of us and our neighbors with wayward opinions.

The encounter of the first kind was between Satan and Eve. From it we learn Satan's MO. Job might have had living relatives giving a very close account of that. Job is a case of Cause v. Effect. To understand the resultant effect(s)/affect(s), it is often vital to understand the cause. That's why detectives of crimes look for a motive that precedes a crime. The motive leads to the prime suspect, and from there making a case against the crime actor(s). So we have in Job the easy identity of the suspect from the beginning, but he is unknown to the victim and the detectives, but perhaps the motive might be subliminally suspected by the victim (Job) before the detectives (friends) realize it.

Often it is best to trust a spiritual "gut instinct" rather than "try" to make sense of the facts with the mind only. Ignoring that leads to a possibility God is being ignored for the sake of protocol.

 

[Dovegiven]

First God did not kill the man's ten children or give Job boils and the like. God allowed it to happen, because it was Satan that conceived and perpetrated the acts you speak of up to but not including the death of Job. Meaning the real question you are really wanting to know is why did God set the conditions that allowed Satan to do what he did?

You also can't address any of this in the perspective by defining certain acts allowed to be done by God as not being loving. For by man's standards, who truly lack understanding without the Holy Spirit? God's Acts of Love are incomprehensible, sometimes even with the Holy Spirit. Otherwise by what you have so far described as acts of God, what He did by sending His Son Jesus to the Cross to be Crucified could never be seen as an act of Love, and yet that is exactly what God says it is! Or do you believe because He is God that somehow it doesn't count?

Perspective brother. There was a course I took on truth. They asked a variety of folks, from different religions and beliefs including Christians a simple question. "What is truth?" The answers were varied in length with theologically, metaphysical, esoteric type responses. Yet the only one I remember that stood out like a beacon of light in a whole lot of darkness came from a teenage artistic boy in a wheel chair. It touched my very Spirit upon hearing it and is probably why I remember today though it has been years since I took this class. This child's response to the question was: "Truth is what you see when you look through the eyes of God".

I leave you with this verse and my hope and prayer a greater understanding of our own limitations in having complete clarity, even with the Holy Spirit in us. Realizing that if I allowed man's perspective have sway over all that I read in Scripture I could not help but agree with what you have been saying. However, if I were to do so, I'd have no room for Spiritual understanding of God's Word.

for we see now through a mirror obscurely, and then face to face; now I know in part, and then I shall fully know, as also I was known; 1 Corinthians 13:12

With the Love of Christ Jesus Dear Brother.
YBIC
Nic
So sending ones Son to the Cross to be Crucified is not an act of Love? Or do you believe because He is God that it doesn't count? By the standards of right & wrong that you seem to be setting there is no way this act could have been considered an act of Love! For surely it could have been prevented, and alternative made to happen etc.

That is sermon material, Brother!

Some might say God led someone into drug abuse, ruining their life in a terrible death. "After all, who can know the ways of God?" they say. It usually turns out a friend of the drug addict introduced the addict to the drug world. Where in that might anyone sanely decide it must have been God directing? Because they say "God is in control"? That gives an impression God is like a chess player sacrificing pawns to win a game.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

1 John 4:17-19 (KJV)
17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us.

I will not teach my children and children's children to fear fire, as in running away from the fireplace, but to highly respect it's potential. Along that line is taught a healthy fear of God, hurricanes, traffic in the street, disease pathogens (wash those hands), offers of pills from fellows, etc.

I will teach them along this line:
Philippians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
1 Timothy 5:20
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
2 Timothy 1:7
7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

This thread has involved some accusing Job of fear (as a sin) over possible sin among his children, though the scriptures don't make that claim about the children of Job. My comment was in fact in line with the thread. Please learn what God says about fear.

Blessings,
I just wanted to add something about the word fear and your post seemed like a good platform to springboard off off.

If we truly or correctly rightly divide scripture then we know this is done with other scriptures and there can Not be even the slightest contradiction from any Scripture with our use of another.

So let's look at the Word Fear.
We see it used as Fear of the Lord AND we see it used as perfect Love Cast Out All Fear.

So in order to use the word fear as in terror or afraid of the Lord would be in direct conflict with Perfect Love cast out all fear.

So fear of the Lord for a Believer has to being used within another meaning.

Now if you are not saved then YES be very afraid.

There is no fear in Peace that God Gives.
Isaiah 26:3-4 tells us when we are fixed on God. His ways are our ways constantly at all times and He covers us with His Perfect Peace.

Fear is perverted faith. To fear an worry about something you have more faith and trust in it then you do God and His Word.

Therefore fear stops faith.
Fear and Faith can not dwell in the same house.

There is no such thing as healthy fear as I saw posted in another post. That's like saying there is healthy evil or healthy sin.

Again I remind you that I simply just used this post to springboard from.
Blessings
Wired

 

[Dovegiven]

Blessings,
I just wanted to add something about the word fear and your post seemed like a good platform to springboard off off.

If we truly or correctly rightly divide scripture then we know this is done with other scriptures and there can Not be even the slightest contradiction from any Scripture with our use of another.

So let's look at the Word Fear.
We see it used as Fear of the Lord AND we see it used as perfect Love Cast Out All Fear.

So in order to use the word fear as in terror or afraid of the Lord would be in direct conflict with Perfect Love cast out all fear.

So fear of the Lord for a Believer has to being used within another meaning.

Now if you are not saved then YES be very afraid.

There is no fear in Peace that God Gives.
Isaiah 26:3-4 tells us when we are fixed on God. His ways are our ways constantly at all times and He covers us with His Perfect Peace.

Fear is perverted faith. To fear an worry about something you have more faith and trust in it then you do God and His Word.

Therefore fear stops faith.
Fear and Faith can not dwell in the same house.

There is no such thing as healthy fear as I saw posted in another post. That's like saying there is healthy evil or healthy sin.

Again I remind you that I simply just used this post to springboard from.
Blessings
Wired

I agree there are different kinds of fear. The blessed fear is expressed with the Greek "phobos" that can be used for an evil fear, such as fear of men.
1 Peter 3:15-16 (KJV)
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

There is also a related Greek word translated "fear", phobio, referencing awe, or reverence.
Matthew 10:25-28 (KJV)
25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The challenge of that one is men often apply that meaning to other men, but not to God. Then we get into the Hebrew and other applications of the English "fear".

Nice springboarding! If I had enough clear days I would start a thread I could daily host.

 

[KingJ]

It's obvious that we are not talking about the same God though. Mine wouldn't do such things to His kids.

God did not drown millions of children in the flood? They were not victims in Sodom? Plagues on Egypt?

Children and animals are always victims of God testing His people or of the wicked exercising their free will. God's defense is that children and animals go straight to heaven.

 

[KingJ]

Do we know the spiritual condition of Job's sons? Maybe they were believers and he'd see them again in heaven. And animals are animals. They reproduce and can be replaced.

Sorry to nitpick Sue. I agreed with the rest of your post but this opening line grated me.

1. God does not think 'animals can be replaced'. God cares about and loves every animal Jonah 4:11.
2. All children go to heaven Matt 19;14.

God is saddened by their destruction. Which is just further evidence of God limiting Himself to allow for true free will.

 

[Christ4Ever]

That is sermon material, Brother!
QUOTE]

I give all the Glory to God Brother! Alleluia! Praise His Holy Name!

 

[Dovegiven]

Do we know the spiritual condition of Job's sons? Maybe they were believers and he'd see them again in heaven. And animals are animals. They reproduce and can be replaced.

That which we're 'observing' is that even in the loss he experienced, he didn't get mad at God. Didn't he say something to the effect that 'God gives and God takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord'? And in the end, didn't he and his wife go on to have more kids and regained the lost livestock. We and those around him didn't see him getting mad at / blaming God for his losses. His wife, on the other hand, wanted him to 'lay down and die' didn't she.

Satan isn't really a psychopathic moron -- far from it. He's a liar ,though. He knows that his eternal destination is in hell and it won't be pretty for him. And he wants all the company possible. He wants people to think that once all of us dull, boring Christians are Gone that the 'rest of the world' is going to have a big party. No negative affects of all that 'fun'. And when 'they' find out the Real Truth -- he will laugh at them -- in the midst of his own pain and eternal suffering. The utter darkness of his world without God.

Satan has been doing everything possible to thwart God's plan for mankind and this world. From evolution to same-sex relationships and marriage and abortion.

@Dovegiven -- you'd brought up the horrible things that are happening to kids on the way up to this country. That God should be stopping all of that. Why does God permit horrible things to happen to innocent children. Well -- the holocost Also happened. There are those who wanted to pretend that That never happened to the Jews by the Germans. There Were a lot of people who Did survive. We have a hard time realizing that human beings can really act That way to fellow human beings. We are capable of treating others even worse than animals.

Maybe God is letting us observe that people Can and Do help each other in times of great distress. That the human spirit Can withstand a Lot.

God's original plan was to give Adam and Eve one 'law' to follow. There was a beautiful garden all set for them to enjoy and propogate. Everything was for them, except for the tree of the knowledge of both good and evil. Then that serpent got in the picture. Were they going to obey God's Word or fall prey to satan. Well -- as they say -- the rest is 'history'.

With the knowledge of Good Comes Evil. People have the capacity of doing great, wonderful things for each other and then again -- doing great horrific things to each other.

But -- eternity Is in everyone's future. Believers have the New Jerusalem to look forward to.

I have not indicated that God should stop the horrible things happening to the children (and mothers) of migrants entering illegally. They have given up all faith back home without a fight, seeking to bring that same failing faith posture to the USA.

Do we know the spiritual condition of Job's sons? Maybe they were believers and he'd see them again in heaven. And animals are animals. They reproduce and can be replaced.

That which we're 'observing' is that even in the loss he experienced, he didn't get mad at God. Didn't he say something to the effect that 'God gives and God takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord'? And in the end, didn't he and his wife go on to have more kids and regained the lost livestock. We and those around him didn't see him getting mad at / blaming God for his losses. His wife, on the other hand, wanted him to 'lay down and die' didn't she.

Satan isn't really a psychopathic moron -- far from it. He's a liar ,though. He knows that his eternal destination is in hell and it won't be pretty for him. And he wants all the company possible. He wants people to think that once all of us dull, boring Christians are Gone that the 'rest of the world' is going to have a big party. No negative affects of all that 'fun'. And when 'they' find out the Real Truth -- he will laugh at them -- in the midst of his own pain and eternal suffering. The utter darkness of his world without God.

Satan has been doing everything possible to thwart God's plan for mankind and this world. From evolution to same-sex relationships and marriage and abortion.

@Dovegiven -- you'd brought up the horrible things that are happening to kids on the way up to this country. That God should be stopping all of that. Why does God permit horrible things to happen to innocent children. Well -- the holocost Also happened. There are those who wanted to pretend that That never happened to the Jews by the Germans. There Were a lot of people who Did survive. We have a hard time realizing that human beings can really act That way to fellow human beings. We are capable of treating others even worse than animals.

Maybe God is letting us observe that people Can and Do help each other in times of great distress. That the human spirit Can withstand a Lot.

God's original plan was to give Adam and Eve one 'law' to follow. There was a beautiful garden all set for them to enjoy and propogate. Everything was for them, except for the tree of the knowledge of both good and evil. Then that serpent got in the picture. Were they going to obey God's Word or fall prey to satan. Well -- as they say -- the rest is 'history'.

With the knowledge of Good Comes Evil. People have the capacity of doing great, wonderful things for each other and then again -- doing great horrific things to each other.

But -- eternity Is in everyone's future. Believers have the New Jerusalem to look forward to.

The "faith level" of Job's offspring is not known. If they had a saving faith allowing entrance in Heaven, why would God have sacrificed His only Son to die for us so we can do that? You suggest there was an alternate path to eternal life?

Why would knowledge of God add knowledge of evil? God stored the knowledge of evil in the fruit of that tree. To this day it must not be that introduction to God involves acquisition of knowledge of evil. He has made the way for those caught in the snare of knowledge of evil to be saved by Jesus Christ. That includes all of us.

I have not written " That God should be stopping all of that." in your words concerning the abuse of women and children trying to enter the USA illegally. They flee from their own lack of faith in God and country, letting their men go ahead to find employment in the USA for a more prosperous flesh life. Their men ought to have given their blood for freedom like the fine citizens of the USA continue to sacrifice for us today.

Every illegal male immigrant ought to be immediately caught, drafted, sent to USA military training, then sent off into the fields of battle, seeing they come in advance of their families, an "army" of able men. Their family members would qualify for welfare meanwhile. Let them then decide whether their quest for life in the USA is what they really have to offer for the common good.

 

[Dovegiven]

God did not drown millions of children in the flood? They were not victims in Sodom? Plagues on Egypt?

Children and animals are always victims of God testing His people or of the wicked exercising their free will. God's defense is that children and animals go straight to heaven.

KingJ, the folks drowned in the flood were not "God's children". Not one. They were Satan's "children", via following him, rejecting Noah's God. Not every human is a child of God, but those adopted into the household of God through Jesus Christ are. God's family was aboard the Ark with doors closed to anyone suddenly wanting to be part of that family.

Where does scripture say animals go to Heaven? Did the children in Ai go to Heaven? I don't see that connection. Children follow their parents, the reason parents ought to sanctify them to the purposes of God. But when they sanctify them to evil, what..........

Where is it taught that God tests His children and makes them and their animals victims of His testing? Like examining a biopsied sample on a slide? The NT teaches me He knows His own already. There is no scripture to my knowledge saying God tested Job. He doesn't have to test anything like a laboratory researcher must investigate to know what is. God KNOWS. People have to examine the fruit to know the tree with certainty.

 

[Bendito]

God did not drown millions of children in the flood? They were not victims in Sodom? Plagues on Egypt?

Children and animals are always victims of God testing His people or of the wicked exercising their free will. God's defense is that children and animals go straight to heaven.

You are coming unstuck due to the false ''Yes and Amen'' teaching of faith churches. Drop it and you will see clearly!!!!!! (You are too smart for it).

God did not drown millions of children in the flood? They were not victims in Sodom? Plagues on Egypt?

Children and animals are always victims of God testing His people or of the wicked exercising their free will. God's defense is that children and animals go straight to heaven.

If you read the Word properly and do a bit of research, you will find that those people were not human..They were chimera, cryptids made by the blending of fallen angel DNA with human DNA Dig into Genesis 6:10 for a start.

 

[Bendito]

KingJ, the folks drowned in the flood were not "God's children". Not one. They were Satan's "children", via following him, rejecting Noah's God. Not every human is a child of God, but those adopted into the household of God through Jesus Christ are. God's family was aboard the Ark with doors closed to anyone suddenly wanting to be part of that family.

Where does scripture say animals go to Heaven? Did the children in Ai go to Heaven? I don't see that connection. Children follow their parents, the reason parents ought to sanctify them to the purposes of God. But when they sanctify them to evil, what..........

Where is it taught that God tests His children and makes them and their animals victims of His testing? Like examining a biopsied sample on a slide? The NT teaches me He knows His own already. There is no scripture to my knowledge saying God tested Job. He doesn't have to test anything like a laboratory researcher must investigate to know what is. God KNOWS. People have to examine the fruit to know the tree with certainty.

Where is it taught that God tests His children and makes them and their animals victims of His testing?
It says that in churches, the teachings of Biblically illiterate pastors to Biblically illiterate Christians.

 

[Quantrill]

KingJ, the folks drowned in the flood were not "God's children". Not one. They were Satan's "children", via following him, rejecting Noah's God. Not every human is a child of God, but those adopted into the household of God through Jesus Christ are. God's family was aboard the Ark with doors closed to anyone suddenly wanting to be part of that family.

Where does scripture say animals go to Heaven? Did the children in Ai go to Heaven? I don't see that connection. Children follow their parents, the reason parents ought to sanctify them to the purposes of God. But when they sanctify them to evil, what..........

Where is it taught that God tests His children and makes them and their animals victims of His testing? Like examining a biopsied sample on a slide? The NT teaches me He knows His own already. There is no scripture to my knowledge saying God tested Job. He doesn't have to test anything like a laboratory researcher must investigate to know what is. God KNOWS. People have to examine the fruit to know the tree with certainty.

They were not God's children but they were human. And God killed all of them in the flood.

God doesn't have to do anything. But He does do things in our experience to bring us to a better understanding of Him. Thus you have the sufferings of Job. Job learns. And we, well, some of us, learns from the record.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

If you read the Word properly and do a bit of research, you will find that those people were not human..They were chimera, cryptids made by the blending of fallen angel DNA with human DNA Dig into Genesis 6:10 for a start.

You're smokin something again. If the blending of human and angels did occur, there is nothing to indicate that it affected the whole human race. And, it really doesn't matter if it did, because they were still alive and God killed them. So, what is the difference?

Quantrill

 

[Bendito]

You're smokin something again. If the blending of human and angels did occur, there is nothing to indicate that it affected the whole human race. And, it really doesn't matter if it did, because they were still alive and God killed them. So, what is the difference?

Quantrill

I've decided not to even discuss this with you. You ARE one of those Biblically illiterate people I mentioned. If you knew the bible at all you would know that there is a plethora of information in the Book on the subject.

 

[Quantrill]

I've decided not to even discuss this with you. You ARE one of those Biblically illiterate people I mentioned. If you knew the bible at all you would know that there is a plethora of information in the Book on the subject.

That's fine. But, don't deceive yourself that I am Biblically illiterate. In fact, if I was illiterate in these matters you would not refuse to discuss them. Because I do have a certain understanding of the Bible, is why you accuse me.

My guess is, if I was so ignorant, and you had a plethora of information on the subject, you would be willing to give it.

The bottom line is this, as I said, it doesn't matter who all God killed in the flood. He killed them all. Correct?

Quantrill