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The Wrath of God.

Users who viewed this discussion (Total:14)

Active Member
So, perhaps we should look at this New Testament wrath of God closer as described by Paul in (Rom. 1:18-2:29)

Paul had just declared in (Rom. 1:16-17) that the Gospel is the power of God resulting in salvation to those that believe, and that in it, that salvation, the righteousness of God is revealed. Or in other words, salvation is always the righteousness of God revealed. Not our righteousness.

And Paul wants to talk about this righteousness of God now revealed in the Gospel. But he hesitates, changes course, and for a brief time he will talk first about the wrath of God as it is now revealed. (Rom. 1:18) He will finish with the wrath of God in (Rom. 2:29), talk briefly about the condition or advantage of the Jew in (Rom. 3:1-20), and then in (Rom. 3:21) he picks up exactly where he left off in (Rom. 1:18) describing the righteousness of God revealed.

So, concerning the wrath of God revealed, Paul says, (Rom. 1:18), "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;" At first glance it is usually perceived that this is saying God's wrath is against the ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. But it adds, "men who hold the truth in unrighteousness". The term 'hold' here speaks to suppression. Men who suppress the truth.

So, God's wrath is not just against all wickedness of men. It is against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who have the truth and suppress the truth.

Quantrill
Amen. Preach on.
 
Active Member
yes we do not hear much about the wrath of God nowadays,

only the grace of God,

good to see some sound teaching. @B-A-C your one of the reasons I keep coming back here
Sound teaching? All I see here is lazy Christianity.

It is so easy to cherry pick verses on God's wrath. It is not easy to explain their context and properly represent God on the matter.

Granted it is also easy to cherry pick verses on His goodness.
 
Active Member
Appreciate the encouragement. OK.

Concerning the wrath of God upon the wickedness of men who have the truth yet suppress the truth, it may be thought that the man who has never heard of God from the missionary, who is either atheistic or an idol worshiper of some sort, is not under the wrath of God. But that is not true. Paul is going to show that though the wrath of God is against the wickedness of men who have the truth and suppress it, all men everywhere have it. And this is not just the person in the darkest jungles of Africa or South America or where ever. It can be speaking to Bible college professors. Seminary graduates. Just like the Pharisees in Jesus day. They had the truth, yet they suppressed the truth. The U.S. today, and she is not alone, is full of learned men who suppress the truth. Just as it is full of ignorant men who suppress the truth, because all have it.

There are two major witnesses that testify that God is there. God is true to His own requirement given in (Deut. 19:15), "...at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established." In (Rom. 1:19-20) the two witness are named. The first is that God has given this knowledge to every man. Every man has the stamp of God upon him. "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them;" (Rom. 1:19) And, second, every man has the creation before him which supports that which is in him saying, yes, there is God. If you have a creation, you have a Creator. (Rom. 1:20) Thus all men are without excuse concerning God. (Rom. 1:20)

The world likes to view how man has progressed in his search for God from his primitive beliefs at the beginning to the more advanced religions of our day. But, that is false. Man at the beginning had the truth of God. Rejected it. And then set about to create false religions. This worldly 'progression' of religions is really a digression of the truth of God. The missionary today is not going to a people who never knew. He is going to a people who knew but rejected the truth. So man who denies God, against the truth in him that always declares God is, is left with the Creation staring him in the face. What does he do with that? Evolution. This was not created by God, it evolved. He deceives himself but does not deceive God. He is without excuse. He holds the truth in unrighteousness. (Rom. 1:18) The wrath of God is upon him.

One of the greatest examples of the power of these two witnesses to God is Helen Keller. She was totally blind and deaf from birth. Shut off completely from the world. That wonderful nurse, Anne Sullivan set about to make contact and somehow reach this poor girl as she grew. And she did. With her hands she taught and learned to communicate with Helen. Then one day she started to tell Helen about God and Christ. And Helen responded back to her, 'is that what His name is?' She already knew He was there. She just didn't know His name.

Quantrill
 
Active Member
The world likes to view how man has progressed in his search for God from his primitive beliefs at the beginning to the more advanced religions of our day. But, that is false. Man at the beginning had the truth of God. Rejected it. And then set about to create false religions. This worldly 'progression' of religions is really a digression of the truth of God. The missionary today is not going to a people who never knew. He is going to a people who knew but rejected the truth. So man who denies God, against the truth in him that always declares God is, is left with the Creation staring him in the face. What does he do with that? Evolution. This was not created by God, it evolved. He deceives himself but does not deceive God. He is without excuse. He holds the truth in unrighteousness. (Rom. 1:18) The wrath of God is upon him.
You have taken the thread in a nice direction.

I always found the second part of Psalm 14:1 interesting. Immediately after David mentions why someone disbelieves, he mentions their condition.

Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
 
Active Member
Mainly OT verses.

How can love which by definition wants good and wrath wanting evil for another, abide in the same person at the same time?

Surely love will drive out wrath and wrath will drive out love. No one in there right mind would view a wrathful person as a loving person and vice-versa.

So the wrathful God of the Old Testament has become the loving God of the New Testament .
Good argument and valid point raised.

What we have to understand though is that there are many verses that come before His wrath. When we consider these and do not cherry pick out of context, we see that God is not a ''wrathful'' God. Rather He is patient, longsuffering and loving. His wrath is the ''''LAST''' straw. As such we cannot define Him as ''wrathful''.

Imagine someone said that of Mother Theresa. Someone saw her slap a paparazzi. As such Mother Theresa is a violent lady filled with hatred. She is wrathful. Uhm, no. :dissapointment:
 
Good argument and valid point raised.

What we have to understand though is that there are many verses that come before His wrath. When we consider these and do not cherry pick out of context, we see that God is not a ''wrathful'' God. Rather He is patient, longsuffering and loving. His wrath is the ''''LAST''' straw. As such we cannot define Him as ''wrathful''.

Imagine someone said that of Mother Theresa. Someone saw her slap a paparazzi. As such Mother Theresa is a violent lady filled with hatred. She is wrathful. Uhm, no. :dissapointment:
But Bible NT God is still full of wrath if you are not in His good books. Same God of the OT who changes NOT.

Rom 1:18 "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, ..."

Matt 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Romans 5:9
"9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!"

That wrath was permanently in place, and only the select few will escape - those who are IN Christ.

Look at the demand from Jesus

Mk 12:30


“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.”

Or else ...... damnation to hell under the WRATH of God. Why are some Christians afraid of believing that God is a wrathful God? He is like a two sided coin. Heads and tails. Love and wrath.
 
Loyal Member
An unbeliever is someone who knows the truth but has made a conscious decision not to believe what he knows to be true.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
 
Sound teaching? All I see here is lazy Christianity.

It is so easy to cherry pick verses on God's wrath. It is not easy to explain their context and properly represent God on the matter.

Granted it is also easy to cherry pick verses on His goodness.
Simple really. God is love and wrath combined. If you don,t respond to His love you fall under His wrath. Like a double sided coin. LOVE and WRATH. And that IS who God is - it is His essence.
 
Active Member
In (Rom. 1:18-32) Paul is talking to the whole of fallen mankind. They have the truth, but they suppress the truth. And His wrath is against them. (1:18) Man is always going to worship something. Once he leaves God, he must have something else to worship. He may not call it worship, but it is nonetheless. So man rejects God. Then the very thing that is a witness to the existence of God, the creation, man worships. (Rom. 1:21-23) He recognizes the greatness of the creation, but rejects God as the Creator and worships it. He has the truth but suppresses the truth.

In (Rom. 1:24-32) you see God's wrath exercised against these. It involves three 'giving up's' or 'turning overs' by God of these people to something that results in their punishment. First, (Rom. 1:24-25), God turns them over to their natural lusts. Their natural lusts go unchecked. Second, (Rom. 1:26-27), God turns them over to unnatural lusts. Homosexuality. Yes, homosexuality is a judgment against a people. Third, (Rom. 1:28-32), God turns them over to a reprobate mind. A mind which no longer cares if it is wrong or right or against God.

Note in these three giving up's by God in His wrath, that He states the reason for it. The first is for that stated in (Rom. 1:21-23). The second is for that stated in (Rom. 1:25). The third is for that stated in (Rom. 1:28). God is saying, 'you don't want Me, you don't get me. And here is life without Me'.

The U.S today bows down to the LGBT community. We have as a nation been turned over to this by the wrath of God. This is a picture of mankind which rejects God. And the U.S today had, more than most nations, the greatest light given it of God. And now we are on the deadly descent of the three giving up's of God. We are like the U. S submarine Thresher descending to crush depth, and cannot stop. (Heb. 10:30-31)

Quantrill
 
Active Member
There are two principle metaphors Jesus uses when speaking about judgement: darkness and fire. I say they are metaphors confidently because they cannot both be literal - there is no such thing as a dark fire.

Fire speaks of destruction. God will purge the earth of all evil. Darkness is about being excluded from the light of enjoying a relationship with God and the goodness of his presence.

God is gracious to honour our choices. If we choose to reject his goodness, then we accept a future estranged from his goodness.

The whole story of the Bible is about how, patiently, graciously and sacrificially, God invites us to a restored relationship with himself.

@Victor Van Heerden you have misunderstood the entire story of the Bible
 
[QUOTE" The U.S today bows down to the LGBT community. We have as a nation been turned over to this by the wrath of God. Quantrill[/QUOTE]


You do know that there are Christian Pastors that are homosexual - don't you? That love and worship the same God you do!!!!
 
There are two principle metaphors Jesus uses when speaking about judgement: darkness and fire. I say they are metaphors confidently because they cannot both be literal - there is no such thing as a dark fire.

Fire speaks of destruction. God will purge the earth of all evil. Darkness is about being excluded from the light of enjoying a relationship with God and the goodness of his presence.

God is gracious to honour our choices. If we choose to reject his goodness, then we accept a future estranged from his goodness.

The whole story of the Bible is about how, patiently, graciously and sacrificially, God invites us to a restored relationship with himself.

@Victor Van Heerden you have misunderstood the entire story of the Bible
You forgot to say that in your humble opinion i have misunderstood. In my humble opinion you have misunderstood the entire story of the Bible
 
Active Member
You forgot to say that in your humble opinion i have misunderstood. In my humble opinion you have misunderstood the entire story of the Bible
Everything I say is my opinion. If it were somebody else's I'd say so. And you can judge my humility for yourself.

I'd be interested to know where you think I've gone wrong. Or better still, what story the Bible tells. Beginning, middle and end.
 
Active Member

No they don't. The God I worship has nothing but wrath for the homosexual. Homosexuality is itself a judgement agaisnt a people. It is the second giving up. It is caused by holding the truth in unrighteousness. Supresssing the truth. You can't be in a condition of suppressing the truth and serving God.

They can call themselves what ever they want. But they are not serving or worshipping God. The wrath of God is against them. The wrath of God is against the nation which allows them to exist.

When homosexuality is prevalent in a country, it is like maggots on a dead carcass. They exist because something else is dead.

Quantrill
 
Everything I say is my opinion. If it were somebody else's I'd say so. And you can judge my humility for yourself.

I'd be interested to know where you think I've gone wrong. Or better still, what story the Bible tells. Beginning, middle and end.
Yep - every thing you say is your opinion but what are your influences? Your conservative Christian upbringing, your denominations doctrines, a literal take on the pre -science Bible that was unable to understand where gay people fit into society. Give me some time and i will endeavour to answer the rest of your post.
 
No they don't. The God I worship has nothing but wrath for the homosexual. Homosexuality is itself a judgement agaisnt a people. It is the second giving up. It is caused by holding the truth in unrighteousness. Supresssing the truth. You can't be in a condition of suppressing the truth and serving God.

They can call themselves what ever they want. But they are not serving or worshipping God. The wrath of God is against them. The wrath of God is against the nation which allows them to exist.

When homosexuality is prevalent in a country, it is like maggots on a dead carcass. They exist because something else is dead.

Quantrill
I live in Africa and here we have a problem with homosexuals being killed because they are regarded as an abomination. Now i wonder where they heard that. Maybe you should do research outside echo chambers.
 
Active Member
Yep - every thing you say is your opinion but what are your influences? Your conservative Christian upbringing, your denominations doctrines, a literal take on the pre -science Bible that was unable to understand where gay people fit into society. Give me some time and i will endeavour to answer the rest of your post.
Looking forward to the full answer. Of course all our thoughts are subject to multiple influences. The question is whether our beliefs stand up to scrutiny.
 
Active Member
Simple really. God is love and wrath combined. If you don,t respond to His love you fall under His wrath. Like a double sided coin. LOVE and WRATH. And that IS who God is - it is His essence.
There is a world of difference between calling Him wrathful and saying He has wrath.

Then, we can also not highlight and bold His''Wrath'' as though it is on par with His ''Love''. That is simply a gross miss-representation of God. God's wrath is as a result of His love.
 
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