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The true church
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Strypes
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oops...
that would be Revelation 21:22 I did not see a temple in the city, because its temple is the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb. 23 The city has no need of the sun or the moon to shine on it, because the glory of God shines on it, and the Lamb is its lamp.
If your evidence is rock solid then there will be no
debate brakelite.
The scripture is the final benchmark to which all
theology is subject.
My thought process is not a factor in this.
Evidence beyond question!
brakelite
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I am encouraged to hear that. Indeed, the scriptures are the only foundation for faith and practice.
First, I am sure you are aware that the Gentiles actually asked Paul to teach them more on the truths of the faith the next Sabbath. And the entire city almost turned out to hear Paul do just that. (Acts 13:42)Without any suggestion that they had the wrong day. The plain fact that there was no controversy between the Jews and Christians over the Sabbath, (like there was constantly over circumcision) is evident in itself that Christians were observing the Sabbath. In fact, the Jews at some stage (I forget when) introduced prayers into the synagogue litany that exposed the Christians who were worshiping among them. This made it impossible after a time for Christians to attend the synagogues so they began from that time to meet indepentantly, but still on the Sabbath.
Now here are some historical quotes regarding the practice of the early church. Remember, the gospel spread very quickly all around the known world, from Africa to Britain to China, all withing the first two centuries. Now look at the testimony of history as to what those churches practiced (outside the meddling fingers of Rome).
4th cent
"Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands." "The Anti-Nicene Fathers," Vol 7,p. 413. From "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles," a document of the 3rd and 4th Centuries.
"The ancient Christians were very careful in the observance of Saturday, or the seventh day...It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world, observed the Sabbath as a festival...Athanasius likewise tells us that they held religious assembles on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, Epiphanius says the same." "Antiquities of the Christian Church," Vol.II Book XX, chap. 3, sec.1, 66. 1137,1138.
"In the last half of that century (4th) St. Ambrose of Milan stated officially that the Abyssinian bishop, Museus, had 'traveled almost everywhere in the country of the Seres' (China). For more than seventeen centuries the Abyssinian Church continued to sanctify Saturday as the holy day of the fourth commandment." Ambrose, DeMoribus, Brachmanorium Opera Ominia, 1132, found in Migne, Patrologia Latima, Vol.17, pp.1131,1132.
5th cent
Canon 26 of the Council of Elvira reveals that the Church of Spain at that time kept Saturday, the seventh day. "As to fasting every Sabbath: Resolved, that the error be corrected of fasting every Sabbath." This resolution of the council is in direct opposition to the policy the church at Rome had inaugurated, that of commanding Sabbath as a fast day in order to humiliate it and make it repugnant to the people.
"The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria." Socrates, "Ecclesiastical History," Book 7, chap.19.
"For although almost all churches throughout The World celebrated the sacred mysteries (the Lord's Supper) on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, refuse to do this." The footnote which accompanies the foregoing quotation explains the use of the word "Sabbath." It says: "That is, upon the Saturday. It should be observed, that Sunday is never called "the Sabbath' by the ancient Fathers and historians." Socrates, "Ecclesiastical History," Book 5, chap. 22, p. 289.
"Mingana proves that in 410 Isaac, supreme director of the Church of the East, held a world council,-stimulated, some think, by the trip of Musacus,-attended by eastern delegates from forty grand metroolitan divisions. In 411 he appointed a metropolitan director for China. These churches were sanctifying the seventh day."
6th cent
"In this latter instance they seemed to have followed a custom of which we find traces in the early monastic church of Ireland by which they held Saturday to be the Sabbath on which they rested from all their labours." W.T. Skene, "Adamnan Llife of St. Columbs" 1874, p.96.
"Having continued his labours in Scotland thirty-four years, he clearly and openly foretold his death, and on Saturday, the month of June, said to his disciple Diermit: "This day is called the Sabbath, that is the rest day, and such will it truly be to me; for it will put an end to my labours.'" "Butler's Lives of the Saints," Vol.1, A.D. 597, art. "St. Columba" p. 762
While on the subject It may surprise many but there is only one mention in the entire NT , I repeat, just one mention in the entire NT!! of a possible organised worship meeting on the first day of the week(Sunday),apart from the daily ad hoc gatherings in the temple. (Acts 2:46)
Ac 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
8 And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.
9 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.
10 And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.
11 When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.
12 And they brought the young man alive, and were not a little comforted.
First thing to notice here is that the disciples are said to have come together to break bread. In Acts 2 we read:
Ac 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Eating their meat can refer only to a meal, and certainly not to the Lord's supper as some would proffer as evidence of a worship meeting. So the breaking of bread referred to in Acts 20 may very well also be a simple meal that the disciples decided to share, as the time was a special occasion, being the farewell of Paul, who may by his own testimony, be never seen again. We do this in our church today, as I am sure you all do; a farewell get-together for a pastor or friend etc.
The second thing to notice is that it occured at night. The custom in those days was to measure days from 'even to even'. Thus this night meeting was the evening of the first day of the week. That is, Saturday night. As the custom was for Paul and the other disciples to worship on the Sabbath together, this may have been a continuation of their customary Sabbath meeting.
The third thing to note is the fact that Luke, the writer of the book of Acts, made no mention of any of the content of the sermon, but made the healing of Eutychus as the focal point of the story. It could be suggested, with good reason, that the only reason Luke told this story was because of the miracle of the boy's healing.
The 'morrow', as mentioned in the text, is Sunday morning. Paul was to depart on Sunday morning. As it happens, that departure entailed a walk of some 20 miles to the nearest port where he was to meet with others, including Luke, and from where they were to set sail. The walk, and the sailing,was hardly the activity of an evangelist who was, as some contend, observing Sunday as a day of rest and reserved for church meetings and worship.
This incident is the sole occasion for any special meeting for the disciples on the first day of the week. And it was Saturday night.
None of the above could be construed as a "Thus saith the Lord...'the Sabbath is from henceforth abolished' ".Hardly incontrovertible evidence for those who maintain that Sunday originated in the NT.
First, I am sure you are aware that the Gentiles actually asked Paul to teach them more on the truths of the faith the next Sabbath. And the entire city almost turned out to hear Paul do just that. (Acts 13:42)Without any suggestion that they had the wrong day. The plain fact that there was no controversy between the Jews and Christians over the Sabbath, (like there was constantly over circumcision) is evident in itself that Christians were observing the Sabbath. In fact, the Jews at some stage (I forget when) introduced prayers into the synagogue litany that exposed the Christians who were worshiping among them. This made it impossible after a time for Christians to attend the synagogues so they began from that time to meet indepentantly, but still on the Sabbath.
Now here are some historical quotes regarding the practice of the early church. Remember, the gospel spread very quickly all around the known world, from Africa to Britain to China, all withing the first two centuries. Now look at the testimony of history as to what those churches practiced (outside the meddling fingers of Rome).
4th cent
"Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands." "The Anti-Nicene Fathers," Vol 7,p. 413. From "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles," a document of the 3rd and 4th Centuries.
"The ancient Christians were very careful in the observance of Saturday, or the seventh day...It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world, observed the Sabbath as a festival...Athanasius likewise tells us that they held religious assembles on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, Epiphanius says the same." "Antiquities of the Christian Church," Vol.II Book XX, chap. 3, sec.1, 66. 1137,1138.
"In the last half of that century (4th) St. Ambrose of Milan stated officially that the Abyssinian bishop, Museus, had 'traveled almost everywhere in the country of the Seres' (China). For more than seventeen centuries the Abyssinian Church continued to sanctify Saturday as the holy day of the fourth commandment." Ambrose, DeMoribus, Brachmanorium Opera Ominia, 1132, found in Migne, Patrologia Latima, Vol.17, pp.1131,1132.
5th cent
Canon 26 of the Council of Elvira reveals that the Church of Spain at that time kept Saturday, the seventh day. "As to fasting every Sabbath: Resolved, that the error be corrected of fasting every Sabbath." This resolution of the council is in direct opposition to the policy the church at Rome had inaugurated, that of commanding Sabbath as a fast day in order to humiliate it and make it repugnant to the people.
"The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria." Socrates, "Ecclesiastical History," Book 7, chap.19.
"For although almost all churches throughout The World celebrated the sacred mysteries (the Lord's Supper) on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, refuse to do this." The footnote which accompanies the foregoing quotation explains the use of the word "Sabbath." It says: "That is, upon the Saturday. It should be observed, that Sunday is never called "the Sabbath' by the ancient Fathers and historians." Socrates, "Ecclesiastical History," Book 5, chap. 22, p. 289.
"Mingana proves that in 410 Isaac, supreme director of the Church of the East, held a world council,-stimulated, some think, by the trip of Musacus,-attended by eastern delegates from forty grand metroolitan divisions. In 411 he appointed a metropolitan director for China. These churches were sanctifying the seventh day."
6th cent
"In this latter instance they seemed to have followed a custom of which we find traces in the early monastic church of Ireland by which they held Saturday to be the Sabbath on which they rested from all their labours." W.T. Skene, "Adamnan Llife of St. Columbs" 1874, p.96.
"Having continued his labours in Scotland thirty-four years, he clearly and openly foretold his death, and on Saturday, the month of June, said to his disciple Diermit: "This day is called the Sabbath, that is the rest day, and such will it truly be to me; for it will put an end to my labours.'" "Butler's Lives of the Saints," Vol.1, A.D. 597, art. "St. Columba" p. 762
While on the subject It may surprise many but there is only one mention in the entire NT , I repeat, just one mention in the entire NT!! of a possible organised worship meeting on the first day of the week(Sunday),apart from the daily ad hoc gatherings in the temple. (Acts 2:46)
Ac 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
8 And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.
9 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.
10 And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.
11 When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.
12 And they brought the young man alive, and were not a little comforted.
First thing to notice here is that the disciples are said to have come together to break bread. In Acts 2 we read:
Ac 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Eating their meat can refer only to a meal, and certainly not to the Lord's supper as some would proffer as evidence of a worship meeting. So the breaking of bread referred to in Acts 20 may very well also be a simple meal that the disciples decided to share, as the time was a special occasion, being the farewell of Paul, who may by his own testimony, be never seen again. We do this in our church today, as I am sure you all do; a farewell get-together for a pastor or friend etc.
The second thing to notice is that it occured at night. The custom in those days was to measure days from 'even to even'. Thus this night meeting was the evening of the first day of the week. That is, Saturday night. As the custom was for Paul and the other disciples to worship on the Sabbath together, this may have been a continuation of their customary Sabbath meeting.
The third thing to note is the fact that Luke, the writer of the book of Acts, made no mention of any of the content of the sermon, but made the healing of Eutychus as the focal point of the story. It could be suggested, with good reason, that the only reason Luke told this story was because of the miracle of the boy's healing.
The 'morrow', as mentioned in the text, is Sunday morning. Paul was to depart on Sunday morning. As it happens, that departure entailed a walk of some 20 miles to the nearest port where he was to meet with others, including Luke, and from where they were to set sail. The walk, and the sailing,was hardly the activity of an evangelist who was, as some contend, observing Sunday as a day of rest and reserved for church meetings and worship.
This incident is the sole occasion for any special meeting for the disciples on the first day of the week. And it was Saturday night.
None of the above could be construed as a "Thus saith the Lord...'the Sabbath is from henceforth abolished' ".Hardly incontrovertible evidence for those who maintain that Sunday originated in the NT.
Brakelite if you do not mind I will deal with the quote
from Acts 20:7 first.
Let's examine this phrase "breaking of the bread" in Acts 20:7.
Breaking of the bread is the undeniable reference to
the Lords supper. Here are the scriptures to support
this statement.
Matthew 26:26
While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”
Mark 14:22
While they were eating, He took some bread, and after a blessing He broke it, and gave it to them, and said, “Take it; this is My body.”
Luke 22:19
And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”
Luke 24:30
When He had reclined at the table with them, He took the bread and blessed it, and breaking it, He began giving it to them.
Luke 24:35 (brakelite read this one carefully)
They began to relate their experiences on the road and how He was recognized by them in the breaking of the bread. (notice Lukes "breaking of the bread")
Acts 20:11
When he had gone back up and had broken the bread and eaten, he talked with them a long while until daybreak, and then left.
Acts 27:35
Having said this, he took bread and gave thanks to God in the presence of all, and he broke it and began to eat.
Acts 2:42 (Here is the proof of the Lord's supper)
They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
Acts 2:46
Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart,
(emphasis on the breaking of bread)
There can be no doubt the "breaking of bread" clearly signifies
the celebration of the Lords supper.
Now what day was it;
Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread,
The first day of the week, Sunday. It does not at all
state that the disciples came together on the sabbath.
They met for the Lords supper on Sunday. They came
together to break bread, the Lord's supper brakelite.
This is what you wrote;
The second thing to notice is that it occured at night. The custom in those days
was to measure days from 'even to even'. Thus this night meeting was the evening
of the first day of the week. That is, Saturday night.
Do you have problems reading the text?
7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread,
Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged
his message until midnight. 8 There were many lamps in the upper room where
we were gathered together.
The scripture says "first day of the week" it does not
say Saturday evening brakelite. Nor does the text say
that they met at night, only that there were lamps in the
upper room. Paul prolonged his message.
1 Corinthians 16 (note: when they gather together)
1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of
Galatia, so do you also. 2 On the first day of every week (Sunday) each one
of you is to put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that no collections
be made when I come.
Mark 16:2
Very early on the first day of the week (Sunday), they came to the tomb when the sun had risen.
Mark 16:9
Now after He had risen early on the first day of the week (Sunday), He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons.
Luke 24:1
But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared.
That is why the first day, Sunday is called the Lords Day.
Brakelite you are clearly trying to read and understand
the scriptures using a theological template. When the
scripture states "first day of the week", you see Saturday
evening??
from Acts 20:7 first.
Let's examine this phrase "breaking of the bread" in Acts 20:7.
Breaking of the bread is the undeniable reference to
the Lords supper. Here are the scriptures to support
this statement.
Matthew 26:26
While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”
Mark 14:22
While they were eating, He took some bread, and after a blessing He broke it, and gave it to them, and said, “Take it; this is My body.”
Luke 22:19
And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”
Luke 24:30
When He had reclined at the table with them, He took the bread and blessed it, and breaking it, He began giving it to them.
Luke 24:35 (brakelite read this one carefully)
They began to relate their experiences on the road and how He was recognized by them in the breaking of the bread. (notice Lukes "breaking of the bread")
Acts 20:11
When he had gone back up and had broken the bread and eaten, he talked with them a long while until daybreak, and then left.
Acts 27:35
Having said this, he took bread and gave thanks to God in the presence of all, and he broke it and began to eat.
Acts 2:42 (Here is the proof of the Lord's supper)
They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
Acts 2:46
Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart,
(emphasis on the breaking of bread)
There can be no doubt the "breaking of bread" clearly signifies
the celebration of the Lords supper.
Now what day was it;
Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread,
The first day of the week, Sunday. It does not at all
state that the disciples came together on the sabbath.
They met for the Lords supper on Sunday. They came
together to break bread, the Lord's supper brakelite.
This is what you wrote;
The second thing to notice is that it occured at night. The custom in those days
was to measure days from 'even to even'. Thus this night meeting was the evening
of the first day of the week. That is, Saturday night.
Do you have problems reading the text?
7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread,
Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged
his message until midnight. 8 There were many lamps in the upper room where
we were gathered together.
The scripture says "first day of the week" it does not
say Saturday evening brakelite. Nor does the text say
that they met at night, only that there were lamps in the
upper room. Paul prolonged his message.
1 Corinthians 16 (note: when they gather together)
1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of
Galatia, so do you also. 2 On the first day of every week (Sunday) each one
of you is to put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that no collections
be made when I come.
Mark 16:2
Very early on the first day of the week (Sunday), they came to the tomb when the sun had risen.
Mark 16:9
Now after He had risen early on the first day of the week (Sunday), He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons.
Luke 24:1
But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared.
That is why the first day, Sunday is called the Lords Day.
Brakelite you are clearly trying to read and understand
the scriptures using a theological template. When the
scripture states "first day of the week", you see Saturday
evening??
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Hello All i just have one question about Gods Law please prayerfully read and tell me what you think or believe about this verse.
Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is EMNITY against God; for it is not SUBJECT to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
Please study this. It will be helpful to first of all read the beggining of this chpt. And also to look up the meaning of the words I capitalized. I would love to hear your replies.
Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is EMNITY against God; for it is not SUBJECT to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
Please study this. It will be helpful to first of all read the beggining of this chpt. And also to look up the meaning of the words I capitalized. I would love to hear your replies.
truth speaker
Member
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2011
- Messages
- 43
I would love to answer your question bg
to be carnally minded is to walk after the lust of the flesh and to walk after
the flesh is certain death
But to be spiritually minded is to walk in spirit and desire that which is of God
The old law people walked carnally because God had not yet poured out his spirit
So to walk after the old law is to be carnally minded
God gave a new law
it is called theRoyal Law you can find this in the book of James ch 2 vs 8 (If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture,Thou
shalt love thy neighbor as thyself,ye do well
vs 9 (But if ye have respect of persons,ye commit sin,AND ARE CONVINCED OF THE LAW AS TRANSGRESSORS.) 10 (For whosoever shall keep the whole law,and yet offend in one point,he is guilty of all.)
As we can see here if a man keep the old law,he must keep the whole law and if he leave one thing out he is guilty of the whole law
Be careful at what you follow as you may be guilty of all
to be carnally minded is to walk after the lust of the flesh and to walk after
the flesh is certain death
But to be spiritually minded is to walk in spirit and desire that which is of God
The old law people walked carnally because God had not yet poured out his spirit
So to walk after the old law is to be carnally minded
God gave a new law
it is called theRoyal Law you can find this in the book of James ch 2 vs 8 (If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture,Thou
shalt love thy neighbor as thyself,ye do well
vs 9 (But if ye have respect of persons,ye commit sin,AND ARE CONVINCED OF THE LAW AS TRANSGRESSORS.) 10 (For whosoever shall keep the whole law,and yet offend in one point,he is guilty of all.)As we can see here if a man keep the old law,he must keep the whole law and if he leave one thing out he is guilty of the whole law
Be careful at what you follow as you may be guilty of all
brakelite
Member
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2011
- Messages
- 873
I disagree. There is plenty of doubt...it is by no means 'undeniable', as you put it. Your last quote from Acts 2:46 being all the evidence for doubt necessary. Breaking bread daily, at home, sharing meals together does not give absolute proof they were celebrating the Lord's supper every time they 'broke bread'. When you break a piece of bread does that mean you are necessarily celebrating the Lord's supper? Why should it be so for the disciples 2000 years ago when the expression 'breaking bread' was a common term for having a meal, particularly in the context of an every day practice as they visited from house to house for fellowship and prayer?
The fact they all had all things in common would have included meals. Stephen was elected as a deacon to serve at those eating tables, in those days an important task. Nothing to do with the Lord's supper.
However, let us assume for a moment that you are correct. That indeed they celebrated the Lord's supper every day and called it 'breaking bread', (even though Paul clearly called it the Lord's supper). How then can an every day occurrence, no matter what it may be, be evidence for a change in the Sabbath? What authority , or rather whose authority, was used or invoked to make that change in God's (Jesus') commandment, particularly when Jesus Himself did not do so, (stating on at least one occasion that heaven and earth would pass away before the law) , so if the giver of the law did not change it, what authority has anyone else to do so?
Now what day was it;
They met before midnight on the first day of the week. That is exactly and precisely Saturday evening, or the first part of the first day, the Sabbath having just been concluded at sunset. The disciples came together to share a farewell meal with Paul who was leaving on the morrow, that is, the next morning, not the next day. If they were meeting on the light part of the first day, then the message would have lasted until midnight on the second day. Either way, it is still absolutely no justification for changing one of God's commandments. Nor is it evidence for it having been done.
So now a one-off collection for impoversished saints in Jerusalem is now the basis for a change in God's holy law? For a Jew to be counting money from his wages or shop takings on the Sabbath was a no-no. So it was perfectly logical for them to do so on the first working day of the week.
No, it is not. Jesus Himself tells us clearly which day He is the Lord of, and therefore which is His day. The Sabbath. And this you know perfectly well, having quoted that text previously.
Not me. Luke, the writer of Acts, being an educated man clearly understood the ancient methodology of time. The days started and finished at sunset. Thus any meeting, no matter whether it is the first or the fifth day, that was held at night was held on the evening after the conclusion of the previous day.
So the first day of the week is not (Sunday)?but Saturday?I don't see it.
lawrenceb
Member
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2012
- Messages
- 306
Looking at the Ten Commandments, the first four Commandments show us how to love God. The last six Commandments show us how to love our neighbor. The reason Christians do not deal with the definition of love is because it has implications that they do not like. These implications are that if a Christian is to truly love his wife and family, the church body, his neighbors, his enemies, and all else, then he can only do so by keeping God’s Law. If we take this seriously, it means we must obey God rather than men (Acts 5:29), and this will bring us into confrontation with the world.
Romans 8:7, "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."
This is the reason why commandment keeping has never been popular. To those who desire a way of forgetting God which will pass for remembering Him, a gospel of "love" that requires no obedience is readily accepted. The bottom line is, love is what one does, not what one feels or professes. Love is a verb, love is an action. ‘Actions speak louder than words’ is an implied maxim of God’s Law. Knowing God’s plan for us is not difficult if we stick to God’s Word and not the opinions of men and the humanist world. The most important law to know is God’s Law because it is our standard by which we measure and judge all other systems of law. Then, when we confront other laws and measure it by God’s standard, we can judge whether such laws are godly or not.
Psalms 119:18, "Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law."
Obedience is easy when you know you are being guided by a God who never makes mistakes.truth speaker
Member
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2011
- Messages
- 43
As far as the Sabbath is concerned you will find in Hebrews ch 4 it has been changed to "Today"
You can verify this in Hebrew ch 3 vs 13 (But exhort one another daily,while it is called Today ;lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.)
Also about the law brethren, you can read in Galatians about the law as the apostle Paul will guide you step for step about the old law,The law which came from MT Sinai
We which have been baptized in water and of the Spirit are of Jerusalem which is from above
You can verify this in Hebrew ch 3 vs 13 (But exhort one another daily,while it is called Today ;lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.)
Also about the law brethren, you can read in Galatians about the law as the apostle Paul will guide you step for step about the old law,The law which came from MT Sinai
We which have been baptized in water and of the Spirit are of Jerusalem which is from above
I'm sure you will also find your answer to the question you posted bg
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Hello brakelite.
You replied "They met before midnight on the first day of the week."
The text does not state this.
If you just consider the first line brakelite.
7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread,
It does not matter what time of the day that they
met, as the text only states that it was the first
day. Therefore the disciples met on Sunday
whether it was 7pm Saturday evening (Jewish time)
or after 12-00 am (Roman time). It is and always
will be Sunday.
Now did the disciples meet only to farewell Paul?
7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread,
It does appear that they met on the first day of the week
to break bread. Surely you can understand that the plain
reading of the text indicates that Sunday was the day that
they met together. Your contention that they met
to farewell Paul is creative thought? It is not stated
as such. In fact, Paul met them on the day that
they celebrated the Lord's supper brakelite.
Remember also, Jews were the only race that
took a day off in Paul's era. All other provinces
worked seven days a week. I have access to
Roman and Greek letters that ridicule the Jews
for taking a day off. The citizens of Troas would
never have been able to honor a Sabbath.
Only the Jews honored the Sabbath brakelite.
To prove this we know that Constantine introduced
legislation allowing Sunday as a day of rest (4th Century).
Before this it was seven days a week for all provinces.
It was impossible that a Sabbath was observed outside
Israel except by Jews.
Troas (Gentile) was the geographical territory under Roman
rule (Gentile), hence more than likely Roman time
was followed. Paul joined the disciples when the people of
Troas met on Sunday to break bread.
This is very simple and straight forward brakelite.
The first day of the week can only be Sunday, this
is the forced conclusion.
You replied "They met before midnight on the first day of the week."
The text does not state this.
If you just consider the first line brakelite.
7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread,
It does not matter what time of the day that they
met, as the text only states that it was the first
day. Therefore the disciples met on Sunday
whether it was 7pm Saturday evening (Jewish time)
or after 12-00 am (Roman time). It is and always
will be Sunday.
Now did the disciples meet only to farewell Paul?
7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread,
It does appear that they met on the first day of the week
to break bread. Surely you can understand that the plain
reading of the text indicates that Sunday was the day that
they met together. Your contention that they met
to farewell Paul is creative thought? It is not stated
as such. In fact, Paul met them on the day that
they celebrated the Lord's supper brakelite.
Remember also, Jews were the only race that
took a day off in Paul's era. All other provinces
worked seven days a week. I have access to
Roman and Greek letters that ridicule the Jews
for taking a day off. The citizens of Troas would
never have been able to honor a Sabbath.
Only the Jews honored the Sabbath brakelite.
To prove this we know that Constantine introduced
legislation allowing Sunday as a day of rest (4th Century).
Before this it was seven days a week for all provinces.
It was impossible that a Sabbath was observed outside
Israel except by Jews.
Troas (Gentile) was the geographical territory under Roman
rule (Gentile), hence more than likely Roman time
was followed. Paul joined the disciples when the people of
Troas met on Sunday to break bread.
This is very simple and straight forward brakelite.
The first day of the week can only be Sunday, this
is the forced conclusion.
brakelite
Member
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2011
- Messages
- 873
You have said in such a few succinct words what I have been trying to say it seems with far too many. Perhaps with your brief and concise logic you may convince some of this wonderful truth that seems to evade the consciousness of those who try to grapple with my more wordy tomes. Well said.
truth speaker
Member
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2011
- Messages
- 43
All of what is spoken of the old law (Ten Commandments) was once true until God came in the flesh
Known as Jesus Christ our Lord and saviour
Jesus (God) done away with the old law Jesus (God) gave a new law it is called the Royal Law you can find this in the book of James ch 2 vs 8 (If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture,Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself,ye do well
Jesus (God) did works (healings,miracles,etc!!!!) through out a week and to prove he was God he did works on the Sabbath and said I'm Lord on the Sabbath day alsoto show the Jews he had power not only 6 days but 7 days a week
If a man be filled with the Spirit of the Lord he can find rest anytime he needs it through Jesus Christ
And we keep everyday Holy,because he is Holy,we are to be a light to the world,You can not be a light or a child of God one day a week
Also in the book of Galatians,Scripture says we who are of the Spirit,we are free from the law (old law)
Scripture also says the old law was until John then the Kingdom of heaven is preached
We are to keep and treat everyday as a Sabbath day
You can do less if you want to,As for myself,I will hold everyday as a Sabbath day as Jesus Christ is the true Sabbath
Known as Jesus Christ our Lord and saviour
Jesus (God) done away with the old law Jesus (God) gave a new law it is called the Royal Law you can find this in the book of James ch 2 vs 8 (If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture,Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself,ye do well
Jesus (God) did works (healings,miracles,etc!!!!) through out a week and to prove he was God he did works on the Sabbath and said I'm Lord on the Sabbath day alsoto show the Jews he had power not only 6 days but 7 days a week
If a man be filled with the Spirit of the Lord he can find rest anytime he needs it through Jesus Christ
And we keep everyday Holy,because he is Holy,we are to be a light to the world,You can not be a light or a child of God one day a week
Also in the book of Galatians,Scripture says we who are of the Spirit,we are free from the law (old law)
Scripture also says the old law was until John then the Kingdom of heaven is preached
We are to keep and treat everyday as a Sabbath day
You can do less if you want to,As for myself,I will hold everyday as a Sabbath day as Jesus Christ is the true Sabbath
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Hello lawrenceb
You stated the following in post #172.
Looking at the Ten Commandments, the first four Commandments show us how to love God.
The last six Commandments show us how to love our neighbor.
The reason Christians do not deal with the definition of love is because it has implications that they do not like.
I have printed the last six commandments.
This is how we love our neighbor??
5 Honor your father and your mother??
6 You shall not kill.
7 You shall not commit adultery.
8 You shall not steal.
9 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10 You shall not covet
You may have to retract your statement lawrenceb.
Your statement is not correct, it is misleading.
Five of these commandments are legal warnings.
How is this love??
You stated the following in post #172.
Looking at the Ten Commandments, the first four Commandments show us how to love God.
The last six Commandments show us how to love our neighbor.
The reason Christians do not deal with the definition of love is because it has implications that they do not like.
I have printed the last six commandments.
This is how we love our neighbor??
5 Honor your father and your mother??
6 You shall not kill.
7 You shall not commit adultery.
8 You shall not steal.
9 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10 You shall not covet
You may have to retract your statement lawrenceb.
Your statement is not correct, it is misleading.
Five of these commandments are legal warnings.
How is this love??
brakelite
Member
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2011
- Messages
- 873
You are reading them wrong. For the Christian they can become promises.
You shall .....is a promise to all who believe....it is called righteousness by faith....it is the promise of a changed life....they become reality in the life of one who has received the love of God and is willing to share that love with others, and return it to his Creator. In reality, one cannot love without honouring every one of those commandments. It is impossible to love God and worship an idol. It is impossible to love God and remove the sacredness from His name, or His day. It is impossible to love your neighbour while stealing from him (that would include not repaying a loan, not returning something borrowed etc), lying to him (and about him, including all gossip and slander), making out with his wife/husband (including lust), killing him (including getting unreasonably angry with him and holding resentment and bitterness against him ) coveting anything that belongs to him, which is idolatry. If you can show me that you can still love without honouring the commandments that would be a neat trick.
I cannot believe that here we are discussing God's holy law on a Christian forum and there are some who claim the name of Christ who are adamantly working against that very law...they are more opposed to God's commandments than most I meet in the world. Astonishing. Then again, perhaps not so astonishing. As Laurence so eloquently pointed out, the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Read more: http://www.talkjesus.com/bible-study-hall/42491-true-church-18.html#ixzz24PdVM0gW
Oh brakelite.
Still trying to understand how the sda handles the
fourth commandment. Checked the official website
of the sda, which resulted in more obscurity.
Is the sabbath a law, a rule or just an idea to the
sda?
Official website of the Seventh Day Adventists.
The following information relates to sabbath observance.
5) Principles Guiding Sabbath Observance. Although the Bible does not deal directly with many of the specific questions we may have regarding Sabbath observance in our day, it does provide us with general principles that are applicable today. (See Ex 16:29; 20:8-11; 34:21; Isa 58:13; Neh 13:15-22.)
"The law forbids secular labor on the rest day of the Lord; the toil that gains a livelihood must cease; no labor for worldly pleasure or profit is lawful upon that day; but as God ceased His labor of creating, and rested upon the Sabbath and blessed it, so man is to leave the occupations of his daily life, and devote those sacred hours to healthful rest, to worship, and to holy deeds."--The Desire of Ages, p 207
These two paragraphs seem to be at odds with one another?
In the first paragraph "general principles" of sabbath observance
is the directive.
From the second paragraph the legal phrase "the law forbids"
is used.
In sda theology is the sabbath an idea to be followed without
penalty, or is it law?
If it is law what is the penalty?
Still trying to understand how the sda handles the
fourth commandment. Checked the official website
of the sda, which resulted in more obscurity.
Is the sabbath a law, a rule or just an idea to the
sda?
Official website of the Seventh Day Adventists.
The following information relates to sabbath observance.
5) Principles Guiding Sabbath Observance. Although the Bible does not deal directly with many of the specific questions we may have regarding Sabbath observance in our day, it does provide us with general principles that are applicable today. (See Ex 16:29; 20:8-11; 34:21; Isa 58:13; Neh 13:15-22.)
"The law forbids secular labor on the rest day of the Lord; the toil that gains a livelihood must cease; no labor for worldly pleasure or profit is lawful upon that day; but as God ceased His labor of creating, and rested upon the Sabbath and blessed it, so man is to leave the occupations of his daily life, and devote those sacred hours to healthful rest, to worship, and to holy deeds."--The Desire of Ages, p 207
These two paragraphs seem to be at odds with one another?
In the first paragraph "general principles" of sabbath observance
is the directive.
From the second paragraph the legal phrase "the law forbids"
is used.
In sda theology is the sabbath an idea to be followed without
penalty, or is it law?
If it is law what is the penalty?
