The Tribulation Isn’t What You Think — and Jesus Never Taught a Rapture Escape Plan

[The Gospel of Christ]

Who are the twenty-four elders in Revelation 4?

Rev 4:4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.

Excellent question — and one that’s been misused by Scofield theology to prop up the “pre-trib rapture” idea. But let’s walk through what Revelation 4:4 actually says — and more importantly, what it doesn’t say.

Revelation 4:4:
“Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.”

Here's what we do know:

The 24 elders are symbolic, not explicitly defined as “raptured Church saints.”
They’re already in heaven in John’s vision — not because they were just raptured, but because John is being shown a heavenly reality that transcends time.
They are clothed in white — symbolizing righteousness (Revelation 3:5, 19:8).
They wear crowns — symbolizing authority (possibly priestly or kingly).

Nowhere does the passage say these elders represent the Church raptured before tribulation. That is read into the text, not pulled from it.

Early Church understanding:
The early Church Fathers saw the 24 elders as heavenly beings — possibly angelic or symbolic representatives of:

The 12 tribes of Israel (Old Covenant)
And the 12 apostles of the Lamb (New Covenant)

In other words: a complete picture of God's covenant people across all time, not proof of a pre-trib escape hatch.

Why this matters:
Scofield followers point to these elders to say, “See? The Church is in heaven before the tribulation!”
But that’s circular reasoning:

They assume the Church was raptured.
Then they assume the 24 elders must be the Church.
And then use that to prove the rapture.

That’s not biblical exegesis — that’s theological gymnastics.

Bottom line:
The 24 elders are heavenly figures symbolizing redeemed authority and worship — but they are not proof of a pre-trib rapture, and they do not override the clear words of Jesus:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days… He will send out His angels to gather His elect…” — Matthew 24:29–31

If the elders were meant to represent a raptured Church, John — or Jesus — would have said so.

But He didn’t.
And neither did the apostles.
Because there is no pre-trib rapture.

Only endurance.
Only glory after suffering.
Only Christ — not Scofield.

 

[KingJ]

"The Cross wasn’t an escape plan — it was a war path.
Jesus doesn’t rapture cowards.
He refines warriors. ..."

THANK YOU for all the evidence; it is so clear : )

So, on one hand you are correct ''Jesus does not rapture cowards''. It would be an honor to be a martyr for Jesus. What a way to go out! But on the other hand I feel that you and many others are not grasping what a Christian is and nor what His plan for the tribulation is.

Please read here to see what a Christian is:

Thread 'So tired of Christians not knowing what a Christian is!'

Oct 29, 2024

This OP consists of:

Section 1 - Venting
Section 2 - Explaining what a Christian is
Section 3 - Concluding argument

Section 1 - Venting:

I am so tired of Christians not knowing what a Christian is! It has been suggested that Judas was a Christian. That a Christian can lose their salvation if they make mistakes just before they die. Or that God cherry picks some humans and makes them Christians.

When these statements are made it is crystal clear to me that A - The individual has no clue as to what a Christian is and B - The individual has no clue as to who God is.

Now, none of...

• KingJ
• Replies: 227
• Forum: Questions about Christianity

Thread 'What is a Christian and how do you become one?'

Nov 15, 2022

A Christian is best defined by John 3:16

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

A Christian is the 'whomsoever' will believe in Jesus. Now, nobody can believe a man who walked the earth 2000 years ago is the Messiah, God of the universe Isa 9:6, without some help. The bible tells us in Matt 16:16-17 and 1 Cor 12:3, that a revelation from above / the Holy Spirit is necessary. It is completely impossible to believe Jesus is Lord without a revelation from the Holy Spirit 1...

• KingJ
• Replies: 2
• Forum: Bible Study

and the OP here to see why a pretribulation rapture is sound:

Thread 'Rapture event - Poll'

Jan 15, 2025

These poll results will be interesting, I would think the vast majority of Christians believe in a pre-tribulation rapture event.

I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture for these three reasons.

1. The Holy Spirit, referred to as the Restrainer, will leave.

When Jesus left, He left us with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is part and parcel of Christianity as we know it. Without Him we cannot have faith in Jesus being Lord. If He leaves us, it will be like God leaving and forsaking us. The devil can also not have his way if the Holy Spirit and or Holy Spirit filled...

• KingJ
• Replies: 150
• Forum: Bible Study

• 

You need to sit back, and see the tribulation for what it is. It is a filtering process for all the hard-hearted people that do not respond to the wooing of the Holy Spirit or the work missionaries currently do.

-----------------------

You will find that mostly OSAS (once save always saved) believers believe in a rapture / rescue event pre or mid tribulation and non OSAS believers in a mid or post tribulation rapture / second coming event.

So I would propose you first properly research why people believe in OSAS before trying to grasp the correctness of a pretrib rapture.

 

[KingJ]

The Tribulation Isn’t What You Think — and Jesus Never Taught a Rapture Escape Plan

Scripture mostly talks about “tribulation” (thlipsis) as something believers experience. But Jesus does describe a final period of unparalleled distress — and He tells us exactly how it ends.

The problem? Modern churches have been fed Scofield’s fan fiction, not Christ’s words.

So let’s walk through what the Bible actually says.

1. Tribulation is for believers — not just “the left behind.”

“In the world you will have tribulation (θλῖψιν) — but take heart, I have overcome the world.”
— John 16:33

“We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”
— Acts 14:22

Tribulation isn't some Jewish horror flick after the Church "vanishes" — it's the furnace believers have always gone through. It’s been happening since Acts — and it will culminate right before Christ returns.

2. Jesus does mention a great tribulation — but the righteous are still there.

“Then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world... and except those days be shortened, no flesh would be saved.” — Matthew 24:21–22

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days… He shall send His angels… and gather His elect.” — Matthew 24:29–31

So when does Jesus gather His people? AFTER the tribulation — not before.
No secret escape. No early flight. No Kirk Cameron 'Left Behind' Hollywood nonsense.
Left behind” isn’t a threat — it’s a promise. Just ask Noah.

3. “But what about being taken like in Noah’s day?”

People say this like it’s the reward — but Jesus says it’s the judgment.

“As it was in the days of Noah… they were eating and drinking… until the flood came and took them all away.
So shall it be when the Son of Man returns.” — Matthew 24:37–39
(Also Luke 17:26–30)

Look again — who gets taken in Noah’s day?
Not Noah. Not the righteous.
It’s the wicked who are swept away in judgment.

And Jesus says it’ll be just like that again.

The ones “taken” are the ones judged.
The ones “left” are the ones preserved.
Left behind? That’s the blessing. Just like Noah, just like Lot.

That means modern Rapture theology has Christians begging to be swept away in judgment — while calling it their “blessed hope.” That’s not faith. That’s deception — straight from the Pit. They’re under a veil… and cheering for their own destruction as the architects of this deception laugh from the shadows of Hell — watching the Church pray for its own judgment, and call it salvation.

4. Revelation confirms: the saints go through it.

“I saw the souls of those who were beheaded for their witness to Jesus… and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” — Revelation 20:4

Who are these saints?
Not “tribulation extras.”
They’re the faithful Church — those who endure.
There is ONE resurrection. (John 5:28–29, Daniel 12:2)

5. Daniel backs it up:

“There shall be a time of trouble such as never was… but at that time your people shall be delivered — everyone written in the Book.”
— Daniel 12:1–2

“Many shall be purified and made white and tried.”
— Daniel 12:10

Not beamed up — purified, tried, delivered.
Through fire, not around it.

6. There’s no escape hatch. But there is endurance — and glory.

“Here is the endurance of the saints… those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”
— Revelation 14:12

“But he who endures to the end will be saved.” — Matthew 24:13

The Satanic Lie: “The Tribulation” is a Jewish-only horror story.
This was invented by John Nelson Darby in the 1800s and stapled into your Bible by Scofield.
They taught the Church is removed before things get rough, and the Jews get one more shot during a special 7-year tribulation.

There’s only one problem:
That’s not what Jesus taught.

Final Truth:
There is a final period of tribulation — a real, global time of distress before Christ returns. But Jesus was clear:

The righteous aren’t removed beforehand — they’re refined.

The wicked are “taken,” not the saints.

The elect are gathered after the tribulation.

There is one resurrection — at Christ’s visible return.

And every believer who endures will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father (Matthew 13:43).

Summary:

"The tribulation" is real — not just future, but already unfolding. It intensifies before Christ returns. But believers go through it — not around it.

The “rapture” happens after the tribulation (Matt 24:29–31).

The ones “taken” in Noah’s day were the wicked — not the saved.
Jesus says it will be the same way again when He returns.

The ones ‘taken’ are the damned. The Rapture, as the misled modern churches teach it, is actually a death sentence disguised as deliverance.

The righteous are left — sealed, rescued, preserved, just like Noah.

So when modern Christians start begging to be “taken”…
they’re literally praying to be swept away in judgment.
That’s not the blessed hope.
That’s spiritual suicide — with Scofield footnotes.

Scofield’s fantasy isn’t in the Bible.

Endure like Noah. Obey like Lot. Shine like the saints.

No one is raptured before it. The righteous are gathered after (Matt 24:29–31).

Saints will suffer, resist the Beast, and be resurrected to reign with Christ. (Rev 20:4)

The whole “pre-trib rapture” thing? Invented in the 1800s. Not Bible. Not Jesus. Not apostolic.

If anyone tells you we’ll be “raptured out” before things get hard, just ask:
“Where’s the verse that says that?”
(Spoiler: there isn’t one.)

The Cross wasn’t an escape plan — it was a war path.
Jesus doesn’t rapture cowards.
He refines warriors.

Not one apostle taught a pre-tribulation rapture.
Not one early Church father believed Christians would disappear before the time of trial.
There is zero historical record of any secret escape doctrine in the first 1800 years of Christianity.

Paul didn’t teach it.
Peter didn’t teach it.
John — the one who saw Revelation — didn’t teach it.

Irenaeus didn’t preach it.
Polycarp didn’t preach it.
Ignatius didn’t preach it.

Jesus didn’t teach it.

So where did it come from?

John Nelson Darby, 1830s.
Scofield Bible, 1909.
Then Hollywood — and Satan’s global elite minions — ran with it.
They sold Christians a false escape hatch — and called it “the Blessed Hope.”

The real Church never believed in a “left behind” evacuation plan.
That idea didn’t come from the Bible.

So ask yourself:
If the apostles didn’t preach it…
If the early Church never taught it…
If Jesus never mentioned it…

Then who did?

Because deception this deep doesn’t come from ignorance — it comes from below.

It’s so twisted, so dark, so psychotic,
it could only come from the pit itself.

Like an evil man sweetly coaxing a group of children
to dance into a barn full of starving lions —
and calling it “blessed hope".

What they’ve done to the Church since 1909 is so twisted,
so diabolical,
it couldn’t have come from man.

This deception bears the fingerprints of the Dragon himself.
Only the enemy of Christ could orchestrate something so brilliant,
so blasphemous —
and sell it as hope.

In my twenty years of online discussion I have probably taken part in about 100 discussions on the rapture.

It always seems to end the same way for all participants. Nobody budges as (cough cough) those who are not pro pretrib hold onto cherry picked scriptures .

-----------------------

As such, I would like for you and all who do not believe in a rapture event to consider the following simple case study:

We have 1. Police, 2. Prison wardens and 3. Prisoners.

Police and prison wardens need to pass an exam before they receive their badges. In order to qualify for the badge, they cannot have a criminal record. A policeman's job is to protect the weak and innocent from bad people. A wardens job is to keep criminals in prison and make sure they don't hurt one another.

Would you call a prison commissioner (owner of a prison) a good person if he takes one of his wardens or a policeman and throws them into prison with criminals?

Of course not, that commissioner would be the definition of evil. Surely we can all agree?

But if the commissioner gave prisoners a chance at rehabilitation and a pathway to earn their badge. Good commissioner, surely we can all agree!

Now.......

A Christian has been washed by the blood of Jesus and made perfect to God Heb 10:14 and made a new creation in Christ 2 Cor 5:17. Like a policeman with no criminal record who is given a badge. Demons know your name. The unsaved that have chosen a sinful lifestyle know your name.

A Christian does not need to be further tested. Unless of course you are not a Christian and do need to be further tested.

2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you unless, of course, you fail the test?

--------------------------------

The tribulation period is described by Jesus as the most terrifying period in all of human history Matt 24:21. It will be so as the devil will be let loose with no restraint. The Holy Spirit / restrainer leaves to allow him to have his way 2 Thess 2:7.

As such, God leaving Christians / His people in the tribulation period will be on par with Him throwing Noah off the ark into the water and demanding he swim to prove his loyalty. Or Lot, sending him back into Sodom and demanding he have faith in the fire to prove his loyalty.

A Christian has already proven their loyalty. If you don't think so, then you are an non-OSAS believer who needs to grasp that God is not a fool that makes a mistake when judging the depths of your heart and mind Jer 17:9-11. He does not make a mistake casting a demon out of heaven, surely we can all agree. And likewise, He does not make a mistake grafting a demon into heaven, surely we can all agree?

Those who Jesus has set free are free indeed John 8:36.

-------------------------------------

It is 100% true that God will never leave nor forsake us. He will always be with His people. Those who come to Him in the tribulation, He will protect and help.

But these people are not Christians. They are tribulation saints. A Christian is someone who ticks Rom 10:9.

Rom 10:9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Now, please try grasp that no amount of confessing that Jesus is Lord with your mouth and believing it in your heart, will help you if you have the mark of the beast.

Rev 14:9-11 If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath.

----------------------------------

Conclusion:

Not believing in a rapture event does not really matter to 'us' specifically. A Christian is and should be prepared to endure whatever God has planned for them. It would be such an honor to enter heaven and eternity as a martyr for Jesus.

But, teaching that God will not help you escape a period where your faith matters naught, makes Him out to be a liar and on par with an evil prison commissioner that would throw his wardens into prison. You are misrepresenting God and potentially stumbling young believers.

The tribulation period is the most terrifying period in all of human history Matt 24:21 because A. Criminals roam the earth and have full power and B. At the halfway mark God drops plagues on earth, increasing in severity, in an attempt to get the wicked to repent.

God remains 'good', despite it being the most terrifying period in all of human history, as it is evidence of Him truly giving even the wicked of wicked a second, third and fourth chance. Every plague that increases in severity = chance to repent.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

In my twenty years of online discussion I have probably taken part in about 100 discussions on the rapture.

It always seems to end the same way for all participants. Nobody budges as (cough cough) those who are not pro pretrib hold onto cherry picked scriptures .

-----------------------

As such, I would like for you and all who do not believe in a rapture event to consider the following simple case study:

We have 1. Police, 2. Prison wardens and 3. Prisoners.

Police and prison wardens need to pass an exam before they receive their badges. In order to qualify for the badge, they cannot have a criminal record. A policeman's job is to protect the weak and innocent from bad people. A wardens job is to keep criminals in prison and make sure they don't hurt one another.

Would you call a prison commissioner (owner of a prison) a good person if he takes one of his wardens or a policeman and throws them into prison with criminals?

Of course not, that commissioner would be the definition of evil. Surely we can all agree?

But if the commissioner gave prisoners a chance at rehabilitation and a pathway to earn their badge. Good commissioner, surely we can all agree!

Now.......

A Christian has been washed by the blood of Jesus and made perfect to God Heb 10:14 and made a new creation in Christ 2 Cor 5:17. Like a policeman with no criminal record who is given a badge. Demons know your name. The unsaved that have chosen a sinful lifestyle know your name.

A Christian does not need to be further tested. Unless of course you are not a Christian and do need to be further tested.

--------------------------------

The tribulation period is described by Jesus as the most terrifying period in all of human history Matt 24:21. It will be so as the devil will be let loose with no restraint. The Holy Spirit / restrainer leaves to allow him to have his way 2 Thess 2:7.

As such, God leaving Christians / His people in the tribulation period will be on par with Him throwing Noah off the ark into the water and demanding he swim to prove his loyalty. Or Lot, sending him back into Sodom and demanding he have faith in the fire to prove his loyalty.

A Christian has already proven their loyalty. If you don't think so, then you are an non-OSAS believer who needs to grasp that God is not a fool that makes a mistake when judging the depths of your heart and mind Jer 17:9-11. He does not make a mistake casting a demon out of heaven, surely we can all agree. And likewise, He does not make a mistake grafting a demon into heaven, surely we can all agree?

Those who Jesus has set free are free indeed John 8:36.

-------------------------------------

It is 100% true that God will never leave nor forsake us. He will always be with His people. Those who come to Him in the tribulation, He will protect and help.

But these people are not Christians. They are tribulation saints. A Christian is someone who ticks Rom 10:9.

Rom 10:9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Now, please try grasp that no amount of confessing that Jesus is Lord with your mouth and believing it in your heart, will help you if you have the mark of the beast.

Rev 14:9-11 If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath.

----------------------------------

Conclusion:

Not believing in a rapture event does not really matter to 'us' specifically. A Christian is and should be prepared to endure whatever God has planned for them. It would be such an honor to enter heaven and eternity as a martyr for Jesus.

But, teaching that God will not help you escape a period where your faith matters naught, makes Him out to be a liar and on par with an evil prison commissioner that would throw his wardens into prison. You are misrepresenting God and potentially stumbling young believers.

The tribulation period is the most terrifying period in all of human history Matt 24:21 because A. Criminals roam the earth and have full power and B. At the halfway mark God drops plagues on earth, increasing in severity, in an attempt to get the wicked to repent.

God remains 'good', despite it being the most terrifying period in all of human history, as it is evidence of Him truly giving even the wicked of wicked a second, third and fourth chance. Every plague that increases in severity = chance to repent.

You built a parable around prison wardens, but Jesus built His Church on a Cross.

He didn’t promise comfort — He promised a sword. (Matthew 10:34)

He didn’t say, “I’ll pull you out when it gets rough.”
He said, “He who endures to the end shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13)

Your entire case rests on one satanic assumption:
That Christians don’t suffer tribulation.

But Scripture says the opposite — over and over again:
“In this world you will have tribulation.” — John 16:33
“We must through much tribulation enter the kingdom of God.” — Acts 14:22
“Who are these in white robes? These are they who came out of great tribulation…” — Revelation 7:14

The tribulation is not for “left behind Jews.”
The tribulation is the final furnace — for all who won’t bow to the Beast.

You claim “a Christian doesn’t need to be tested again.”
Tell that to Peter, crucified upside down.
Tell that to Paul, beheaded in Rome.
Tell that to every saint in Revelation beheaded for their witness to Christ. (Rev. 20:4)

What part of “be faithful unto death and I will give you the crown of life” (Rev. 2:10) do you not understand?

The very people you say get “raptured out” are the ones Revelation says endure and overcome.
Because Jesus doesn’t rapture cowards.
He refines warriors.

Your prison analogy falls apart the moment you open the Word. Noah wasn’t “raptured” — he was sealed through the judgment.
Lot wasn’t teleported — he fled in obedience while fire fell.

Jesus said it Himself:
“As it was in the days of Noah… they were eating and drinking until the flood came and took them all away.
So shall it be when the Son of Man returns.” — Matthew 24:37–39

Who got taken away?
The wicked.
Not Noah. Not the righteous.

Same thing in Luke 17 — “one taken, one left.”
You’re begging to be taken — just like they were in Noah’s day.

That’s not the blessed hope.
That’s a death wish.

You are literally praying for judgment — and calling it deliverance.
So no, the “rapture” doesn’t come before the tribulation.

Jesus gathers His elect after the tribulation. (Matthew 24:29–31)
That’s not “cherry-picked” — that’s red letter.

There is one resurrection.
At the last trumpet. (1 Corinthians 15:52)
Not seven years before. Not in secret. Not in waves.

“The Lord Himself shall descend with a shout… and the dead in Christ shall rise first.” — 1 Thess. 4:16
“The hour is coming when all who are in the graves shall hear His voice…” — John 5:28

No secret escape.
No two-part comeback.

The Bible never says “Jesus comes back, leaves again, and then comes back again.”
That’s Scofield’s fan fiction — not Christ’s teaching.

So let me ask you plainly:
If the apostles didn’t teach it…
If Jesus never taught it…
If no early Christian in the first 1800 years of Church history believed it…

Then who did?

Answer:
John Nelson Darby, 1830s.
Scofield, 1909.
Then Hollywood ran with it — and now here you are, regurgitating it like gospel while accusing real believers of “misrepresenting God.”

No, friend. What you’re doing — that, is misrepresenting God.

You’re selling a golden ticket to Christians when Christ said, “Take up your cross.”

You’re preaching escape when the Bible says endure.

You’re calling those who stand firm “unbelievers”…
…when the Book says they will reign with Christ. (Rev. 20:4)

You said: “Those who come to Him during the tribulation aren’t Christians.”
Then I guess Jesus isn’t their Savior?
Because Revelation says they’re clothed in white — and reign with Him for 1,000 years.

Call them what you want — the Lamb calls them faithful.

So instead of drawing cartoons about prisons, maybe open the Word you claim to follow.

Because your Scofield fantasy isn’t in the Bible.
Jesus doesn’t rapture out the righteous.
He refines them — in fire.

And when He returns — everyone will know it.

“Every eye shall see Him.” — Revelation 1:7
“As lightning shines from the east to the west, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be.” — Matthew 24:27

No secrets. No two comings. No escape.

Just the Cross…
…tribulation…
…and glory.

 

[KingJ]

You built a parable around prison wardens, but Jesus built His Church on a Cross.

He didn’t promise comfort — He promised a sword. (Matthew 10:34)

He didn’t say, “I’ll pull you out when it gets rough.”
He said, “He who endures to the end shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13)

Your entire case rests on one satanic assumption:
That Christians don’t suffer tribulation.

But Scripture says the opposite — over and over again:
“In this world you will have tribulation.” — John 16:33
“We must through much tribulation enter the kingdom of God.” — Acts 14:22
“Who are these in white robes? These are they who came out of great tribulation…” — Revelation 7:14

The tribulation is not for “left behind Jews.”
The tribulation is the final furnace — for all who won’t bow to the Beast.

You claim “a Christian doesn’t need to be tested again.”
Tell that to Peter, crucified upside down.
Tell that to Paul, beheaded in Rome.
Tell that to every saint in Revelation beheaded for their witness to Christ. (Rev. 20:4)

What part of “be faithful unto death and I will give you the crown of life” (Rev. 2:10) do you not understand?

The very people you say get “raptured out” are the ones Revelation says endure and overcome.
Because Jesus doesn’t rapture cowards.
He refines warriors.

Your prison analogy falls apart the moment you open the Word. Noah wasn’t “raptured” — he was sealed through the judgment.
Lot wasn’t teleported — he fled in obedience while fire fell.

Jesus said it Himself:
“As it was in the days of Noah… they were eating and drinking until the flood came and took them all away.
So shall it be when the Son of Man returns.” — Matthew 24:37–39

Who got taken away?
The wicked.
Not Noah. Not the righteous.

Same thing in Luke 17 — “one taken, one left.”
You’re begging to be taken — just like they were in Noah’s day.

That’s not the blessed hope.
That’s a death wish.

You are literally praying for judgment — and calling it deliverance.
So no, the “rapture” doesn’t come before the tribulation.

Jesus gathers His elect after the tribulation. (Matthew 24:29–31)
That’s not “cherry-picked” — that’s red letter.

There is one resurrection.
At the last trumpet. (1 Corinthians 15:52)
Not seven years before. Not in secret. Not in waves.

“The Lord Himself shall descend with a shout… and the dead in Christ shall rise first.” — 1 Thess. 4:16
“The hour is coming when all who are in the graves shall hear His voice…” — John 5:28

No secret escape.
No two-part comeback.

The Bible never says “Jesus comes back, leaves again, and then comes back again.”
That’s Scofield’s fan fiction — not Christ’s teaching.

So let me ask you plainly:
If the apostles didn’t teach it…
If Jesus never taught it…
If no early Christian in the first 1800 years of Church history believed it…

Then who did?

Answer:
John Nelson Darby, 1830s.
Scofield, 1909.
Then Hollywood ran with it — and now here you are, regurgitating it like gospel while accusing real believers of “misrepresenting God.”

No, friend. What you’re doing — that, is misrepresenting God.

You’re selling a golden ticket to Christians when Christ said, “Take up your cross.”

You’re preaching escape when the Bible says endure.

You’re calling those who stand firm “unbelievers”…
…when the Book says they will reign with Christ. (Rev. 20:4)

You said: “Those who come to Him during the tribulation aren’t Christians.”
Then I guess Jesus isn’t their Savior?
Because Revelation says they’re clothed in white — and reign with Him for 1,000 years.

Call them what you want — the Lamb calls them faithful.

So instead of drawing cartoons about prisons, maybe open the Word you claim to follow.

Because your Scofield fantasy isn’t in the Bible.
Jesus doesn’t rapture out the righteous.
He refines them — in fire.

And when He returns — everyone will know it.

“Every eye shall see Him.” — Revelation 1:7
“As lightning shines from the east to the west, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be.” — Matthew 24:27

No secrets. No two comings. No escape.

Just the Cross…
…tribulation…
…and glory.

Please learn to use the 'quote' function. It takes so long to reply to a post like this and it seems pointless and a complete waste of effort as you clearly did not read or digest mine.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Please learn to use the 'quote' function. It takes so long to reply to a post like this and it seems pointless and a complete waste of effort as you clearly did not read or digest mine.

Okay, I get it now.
You’re not upset because I didn’t respond.
You’re upset because I didn’t respond in your preferred format.

I replied with:
Red letters from Jesus.
Apostolic teaching.
1,800 years of Church history.
Clear scripture showing the saints go through the tribulation, not around it.

And instead of engaging the truth, you said:
“Learn to use the quote function.”

Brother… this isn’t a tech support thread.
It’s a theological discussion.

I don’t need HTML formatting to prove the truth — I need the Word.
And I gave it to you — line after line.

So if your doctrine collapses unless it’s defended with quote tags and forum syntax, maybe the issue isn’t how I replied…

It’s what I said.

And if you really read my response and still think it’s “pointless,” that tells me everything I need to know.

You don’t want a conversation.
You want compliance.

You’re right — I didn’t quote you line-by-line.
I quoted Jesus instead.
Sorry if that hit too hard.

 

[Curtis]

it says they come out of tribulation, it does not say they were saved during the tribulation they already had white robes to me meaning they were all ready saved but now they have washed them clean. either way is a little speculation, but I do not believe a non believer has a rob to begin with to wash clean, these are my thoughts though.

For sure that scripture says nothing about when they got saved, that you are speculating imo

These people did not come out of tribulation, they came out of great tribulation. How many were there?

Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number…..

All of these people were killed (beheaded) for not taking the mark of the beast nor worshipping his image. That only happens in the great tribulation.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

 

[Curtis]

Who are the twenty-four elders in Revelation 4?

Rev 4:4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.

The twenty-four elders are "eyewitnesses" of Jesus taking the "scroll with its seven seals," from His Father's hand, which Jesus himself will open, one by one, starting the "Great tribulation period."
Rev 4:4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.
We do not have to try and figure out who these people are because they themselves tell us who they are!

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The twenty-four elders are born again saints who have been raptured from the earth and have been given new supernatural bodies by the fact they were clothed in white and have already been rewarded by the fact they had crowns of gold on their heads. The twenty-four elders are representative of the entire body of Christ.

The body of Christ raptured from the Earth will see Jesus open the seven seals one by one.

The twenty-four Elders said....

hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

There are a lot more than just 24 nations, tongues, and nations on the Earth. This is why the twenty elders are representative a much larger group of people.

One of these Elders is the one who told the Apostle John who the people were that were more that can be numbered that came out of the great tribulation.

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Curtis]

if the church is the restrainer they have done a terrible job through history

This is why we have "tribulation" in this world today and not "great tribulation" until after the Church is gone.

 

[B-A-C]

Matt 24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Matt 24:22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Matt 24:23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him.

Why are the elect still here during the great tribulation? Why do the days need to be cut short for them?

Matt 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

"AFTER" the grreat tribulation of those days... the angels will "gather up" (rapture) the elect. Verse 31 says there will be a trumpet sounding at this time.

1Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
1Cor 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

So it says here the dead will be raised and we will changed in the twinkling of an eye... "at the LAST trumpet" not the first trumpet.
There are seven other trumpets mentioned in Revelation, would the "last" trumpet be before those?

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 This is the first resurrection. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

"This" is the first resurrection, there is no resurrection before this. (OK Jesus was resurrected, perhaps a few isolated cases) but "THE FIRST" resurrection doesn't happen until this time. If this is the first resurrection, there can't have been a rapture before this time.

 

[B-A-C]

Mark 13:14 "But when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

Mark 13:19 "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
Mark 13:20 "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
Mark 13:21 "And then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ'; or, 'Behold, He is there'; do not believe him;
Mark 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

Mark 13 says the same thing as Matthew 24. The elect are still here during the great tribulation. The days will be cut short for them.

Mark 13:24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25 AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27 "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

"AFTER" that tribulation, the angels will gather up (rapture) the elect. Not before. There is no verse in the Bible that says "before".

It says the abomination of desolation will be happening already. That matches this passage.

2Thes 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2Thes 2:2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2Thes 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Thes 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

The coming of the Lord, and our gathering together with Him, will NOT happen until the great apostacy, and the beast is revealed and takes his seat in the temple. There is NO rapture before this time.

 

[B-A-C]

God will be protecting His people at this time.

Rev 9:3 Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4 They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
Those who are sealed by God will be protected from the plagues.

Matt 24:22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

The days will be "cut short" to protect the elect.

But that doesn't mean you can't die, it just means you won't die from God's plagues.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

God will be protecting His people at this time.

Rev 9:3 Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4 They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
Those who are sealed by God will be protected from the plagues.

Matt 24:22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

The days will be "cut short" to protect the elect.

But that doesn't mean you can't die, it just means you won't die from God's plagues.

Mark 13:14 "But when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

Mark 13:19 "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
Mark 13:20 "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
Mark 13:21 "And then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ'; or, 'Behold, He is there'; do not believe him;
Mark 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

Mark 13 says the same thing as Matthew 24. The elect are still here during the great tribulation. The days will be cut short for them.

Mark 13:24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25 AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27 "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

"AFTER" that tribulation, the angels will gather up (rapture) the elect. Not before. There is no verse in the Bible that says "before".

It says the abomination of desolation will be happening already. That matches this passage.

2Thes 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2Thes 2:2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2Thes 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Thes 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

The coming of the Lord, and our gathering together with Him, will NOT happen until the great apostacy, and the beast is revealed and takes his seat in the temple. There is NO rapture before this time.

^ This B-A-C cat right here.. His last 3 posts.. He absolutely gets it 100%

Lurkers, If you still think the rapture comes before Tribulation…
You’re not following the Bible —
You’re following Scofield.

 

[Curtis]

Matt 24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Matt 24:22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Matt 24:23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him.

Why are the elect still here during the great tribulation? Why do the days need to be cut short for them?

Matt 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Jesus, at this time was talking directly to the Jews. When he mentioned "elect," he was not referring to the Church, as the Church did not yet exist.
The Jews knew he was referring to an Old Testament scripture.

Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

This takes place during the great tribulation. The main preachers are the 144,000 Jews sealed by the Spirit of God.

Isa 27:12 In that day the LORD will start His threshing from the flowing stream of the Euphrates to the brook of Egypt, and you will be gathered up one by one, O sons of Israel.
Isa 27:13 It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem.

Many Jews will come to faith during this time, and they will accept Jesus to be their messiah, which makes them God's elect.

 

[Deep Seeker]

QUESTION ?? Why are so-called, Christian chat rooms, so much anti-christ in Their nature??
If a chat room is to be called, A Christian Chat Room, then make it that; not an opinion room!
I know that This sounds hard; and it is meant to be. Start by first: Asking for The Spirit of The Elohim to help in Your understanding of what has been caused to be written in Today's Bible.
Also, The Bible is not the only true writing. "Study to show Yourself approved of God, rightly dividing, The Word Of Truth!

Who wrote: The King James bible? Was it God or His Spirit? Or was it men?

Want to become more spiritually understanding? Try The Quran. Don't knock It if You have not read IT!

DeepSeeker

 

[Curtis]

Rev 20:5 This is the first resurrection. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

We just assume that when we read "first resurrection," it means a numerical number referring to a single resurrection in count.

If that is true, then Jesus was the "first" resurrection, and any other would be number 2 or 3 or more. So the first resurrection at the end of the great tribulation would not be considered the first resurrection. The "first" resurrection does not mean the first resurrection to ever happen. there have been many resurrections before this. There are only 2 kinds of resurrections in the Bible. The first means first in kind, and the second means the second in kind.

What are these two kinds of resurrections? The first kind is the resurrection unto life, and the second kind is the resurrection unto death.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

Jesus was the first resurrection of the first kind! The rapture of the Church and the resurrection of the dead would be the second resurrection of the first kind. The resurrection of the saints in Revelation at the end of the great tribulation would be the third resurrection of the first kind. At the end of the Millennium Kingdom, there has to be another resurrection of the first kind unto eternal life because the people with physical bodies, because they have flesh and blood, cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Although the scripture does not say this, it must be true based on other scriptures. At the end, there will be another resurrection of the first and second kind.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

We just assume that when we read "first resurrection," it means a numerical number referring to a single resurrection in count.

If that is true, then Jesus was the "first" resurrection, and any other would be number 2 or 3 or more. So the first resurrection at the end of the great tribulation would not be considered the first resurrection. The "first" resurrection does not mean the first resurrection to ever happen. there have been many resurrections before this. There are only 2 kinds of resurrections in the Bible. The first means first in kind, and the second means the second in kind.

What are these two kinds of resurrections? The first kind is the resurrection unto life, and the second kind is the resurrection unto death.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

Jesus was the first resurrection of the first kind! The rapture of the Church and the resurrection of the dead would be the second resurrection of the first kind. The resurrection of the saints in Revelation at the end of the great tribulation would be the third resurrection of the first kind. At the end of the Millennium Kingdom, there has to be another resurrection of the first kind unto eternal life because the people with physical bodies, because they have flesh and blood, cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Although the scripture does not say this, it must be true based on other scriptures. At the end, there will be another resurrection of the first and second kind.

Ah, the classic move: when Scripture says “the first resurrection,” you claim it doesn’t actually mean first.

You say:
“There have been many resurrections before this, so Revelation 20:5 can’t mean ‘first’ in sequence.”

But that’s not what the passage says — or means.

It literally defines the "first resurrection" as:

The resurrection of those who were beheaded for Christ.
The resurrection of those who did not worship the Beast or take his mark.
The resurrection that happens after the Great Tribulation.
The resurrection that inaugurates the Millennial Reign.

And then it adds:
“The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.” (Rev 20:5)

If that’s not a sequential resurrection — I don’t know what is.

Your attempt to split “first” into types and kinds is pure theological gymnastics. You're inventing invisible resurrections because the plain reading of Revelation blows up your timeline.

Let’s keep it simple:

Jesus is the firstfruits (1 Cor. 15:20–23) — the prototype of the resurrection.
Revelation 20 is the first resurrection of the saints at His return — the one Paul also refers to when he says, “the dead in Christ will rise first.” (1 Thess. 4:16)
Revelation 20:5 makes it crystal clear — the rest of the dead aren’t raised until after the 1,000 years.

There are two resurrections in Scripture, not seven or eight "kinds" depending on Scofieldian charts:

Resurrection of the righteous — the saints at Christ’s coming.
Resurrection of the wicked — after the Millennium for final judgment. (Rev 20:11–15)

You’re inventing categories nowhere in the text just to force-fit a timeline that was never taught by Jesus, Paul, John, Peter, or any Church Father for 1,800 years.

If you need Revelation to stop meaning what it plainly says in order to defend your system…
It’s not the Bible you believe.

It’s Scofield.

 

[Rhema]

Okay, I get it now.
You’re not upset because I didn’t respond.
You’re upset because I didn’t respond in your preferred format.

He also gets upset if you don't believe the same things he does.

 

[Rhema]

Jesus said it Himself:
“As it was in the days of Noah… they were eating and drinking until the flood came and took them all away.
So shall it be when the Son of Man returns.” — Matthew 24:37–39

Who got taken away?
The wicked.
Not Noah. Not the righteous.

Thank you.

I've been saying this for years, but nobody wants to think it through.

Agape,
Rhema

 

[KingJ]

Okay, I get it now.
You’re not upset because I didn’t respond.
You’re upset because I didn’t respond in your preferred format.

I replied with:
Red letters from Jesus.
Apostolic teaching.
1,800 years of Church history.
Clear scripture showing the saints go through the tribulation, not around it.

And instead of engaging the truth, you said:
“Learn to use the quote function.”

Brother… this isn’t a tech support thread.
It’s a theological discussion.

I don’t need HTML formatting to prove the truth — I need the Word.
And I gave it to you — line after line.

So if your doctrine collapses unless it’s defended with quote tags and forum syntax, maybe the issue isn’t how I replied…

It’s what I said.

And if you really read my response and still think it’s “pointless,” that tells me everything I need to know.

You don’t want a conversation.
You want compliance.

You’re right — I didn’t quote you line-by-line.
I quoted Jesus instead.
Sorry if that hit too hard.

Quoting is not HTML formatting. It is a tool that makes discussion easy.

All this time you took to type a much ado about nothing reply could have been directed to learning the quote function.