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The real big problem with a non-OSAS belief

salvation unconditional is what OSAS suggest,

yet the bible tells us if we do certain things we will not inherit the kingdom of God

if you think your saved and practice any of these things you are not going going to heaven unless you repent. unconditional salvation is lie of this world to get you comfortable, we are never to get comfortable with this world !!

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Note how every word is a plural or emphasizing continuing in sin unrepentant. 'Practice homosexuality, drunkard ''s'''

A Christian is by definition not someone who will 'continue unrepentant in sin'. You become a Christian when you sincerely repent of your sins and pass God's judgement of your heart and mind Jer 18:9-10.

As I have said many times before, the problem is that many do not know what a Christian is. With your take, God would have to either A. Remove free will when we get to heaven or B. Kick people out of heaven as and when they fall into sin. The problem is that you are not grasping that an action at a depth of intent seals our desire to hate or love what is evil. A 'true' Christian will always desire to repent of their sins and as such never be guilty of, as per the scripture you quoted, able to continue unrepentant in sin.

Please read the OP's here for a better and more detailed explanation:

 
salvation unconditional is what OSAS suggest,

Salvation is unconditional once it has been gifted by God.

To suggest OSAS is not true is to suggest God is a fool that cannot judge the heart of the individual He gifts it too. Which is not what scripture teaches us in Num 23:19 and Jer 17:9-10.

You must therefore also believe that perhaps God made a mistake removing all the fallen angels. Perhaps God will make mistakes with whom He sends to heaven and hell. Where does God's mistakes stop with your 'non-OSAS' belief? The moment someone has an accidental car crash? Then suddenly God can know the heart? What a silly belief! You are putting God into a box you can understand, one that completely and terribly misrepresents Him to the lost. As it suggests, per my OP, that He pervert justice.
 
If you read this entire thread you will see that non-OSAS believers contribution to the discussion is to simply push their belief and do not care to deal with the accusations of their belief.

If a belief incriminates God as unjust and evil, it is false, period! As scripture is crystal clear that God is just Job 34:12 and righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17.
 
if you think your saved and practice any of these things you are not going going to heaven unless you repent. unconditional salvation is lie of this world to get you comfortable, we are never to get comfortable with this world !!
Are you saying born again believer do not have eternal life (OSAS)?

If not how long of life do, they have?
 
Are you saying born again believer do not have eternal life (OSAS)?

If not how long of life do, they have?
everyone has eternal life
, we are eternal creation of God,

it just depends weather you go on to be with God or to eternal punishment
 
everyone has eternal life
, we are eternal creation of God,

it just depends weather you go on to be with God or to eternal punishment

If everyone has eternal life. What would be the need of a savior? Reincarnation the returning to the flesh

Mankind was created according to the letter of the law all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura)

The letter death lovingly informed Adam thou shall not eat, or you are as dead as a door nail and your temporal spirit given under the letter death returns the Holy Father of all spirit life, and the lifeless spiritless body returns to the field of dust and water (Clay)

The letter (sola scriptura) the power of life and death

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The second death "the death of death itself "

Death with its daily suffering called hell .death will not rise up and destroy another whole creation. The former things here like the book of the law will not be remembered or ever come to mind

Revelation 20:14 And death and (with) hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (death of death)
 
When I say everybody has eternal life to be separated from God from eternity is pure torment so eternal life to find is never dying it's not necessarily a good thing eternal life in Christ is the best thing
 
If everyone has eternal life. What would be the need of a savior? Reincarnation the returning to the flesh

No reincarnation. You don't come back as something else. You are still you.

@Dave M is right. everyone lives forever... the difference is.. your address.

Matthew 25:46

“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Revelation 20:10

“And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

Revelation 20:14–15

“Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

Mark 9:43–48 (selected verses)

“...to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire...
where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.”

2 Thessalonians 1:9

“These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.”

You can't punished "forever" unless you live forever.
You can't be "tormented day and night forever" unless you live forever.

Revelation 14

9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice,
“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger;
and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels

This isn't a parable. It's a fact! In fact Jesus wasn't even the one speaking in most of these passages.

This isn't hell on Earth in this current life. It's eternal in your next life.

John 5:28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

1Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
1Cor 15:43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1Cor 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1Cor 15:45 So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Cor 15:46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
1Cor 15:47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.

1Cor 15:53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
 
The second death "the death of death itself "

I don't know how you come up with some of the stuff you do.

Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Being thrown into the Lake of fire is the second death. But you're still not dead even when you're in the Lake of fire.

There is a difference between "the flesh" and being "human". Yes "flesh" goes against the spiritual. No argument there.

But God didn't create humanity to be some temporary after thought.

God Himself created mankind.
Jesus Himself became human.
There is no evidence in the Bible that I can see, that humanity will ever end.
There is no evidence in the Bible that I can see, that individuals humans ever end (cease to be).
 
I don't know how you come up with some of the stuff you do.

Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Being thrown into the Lake of fire is the second death. But you're still not dead even when you're in the Lake of fire.

There is a difference between "the flesh" and being "human". Yes "flesh" goes against the spiritual. No argument there.

But God didn't create humanity to be some temporary after thought.

God Himself created mankind.
Jesus Himself became human.
There is no evidence in the Bible that I can see, that humanity will ever end.
There is no evidence in the Bible that I can see, that individuals humans ever end (cease to be).

I come up with my stuff hopefully following the loving commandment to study to show oneself approved of an invisible God (Aoratos)therefore rightly dividing the parables which without Christ spoke not hiding the unseen (Aoratos) understanding from the non-redeemed

The second death the death of death.by the instrument of death and life the letter of the law the book of Bible

New promised bodies neither male nor female . . .jew nor gentile as the wife of Christ .Christians named after the founder and husband Christ .

There will be no digging up bones and thrown into the 10 th. century fires of Pope Formoso. The Cadaver Synod
 
No reincarnation. You don't come back as something else. You are still you.

@Dave M is right. everyone lives forever... the difference is.. your address.

Thanks for the reply

That is what a reincarnation is. . . . . "reentering the corrupted flesh". As in nothing changes nothing.

Dead mankind ends up with same family and friends as here. The same in the imaginary transgender, misogamy racist order. that the Trump government is exposing as a reformation to the church. Even coming back in different flesh, man to woman, child to kitty cat or goldfish

The pagan (out of sight out of mind) The religious belief system of all the kingdoms of this corrupted dying world. Our invisible God (Aoratos) found in Colossians 1.That Christ calls that religious foundation fools. No Aoratos in their hard hearts

Colossians 1:15-16;Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:;For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

2 Timothy infallibly informs the born-again Christians as new creatures when they receive the promise neither male nor female jew nor gentile

Warns of those not born again, they imagine and pretend the resurrection has come and imagine what kind of creature they want to be (reincarnation)

2 Timothy 2:15-19 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.;But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith (yoked with Christ labor of love )of some.;Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
 
Where are you getting this from?

The bible God's powerful "let there be" instrument of death and life.

Thou shall not or you re deader than a door nail will not rise up and condemn through corruption another whole creation.

His bride the church will come down on the last day under the Sun when the instrument of death and its daily suffering of the body of death hell . will never be remembered or ever come to mind forever and ever

Romans 7:6 But now we (living) are delivered from the law, that being dead ( no power to live) wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness (new born aain life) of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. (dead in trespass and sin)

Second death the Death of death .No more suffering *hell)
 
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I truly appreciate your emphasis on the completed work of Christ—His offering was indeed perfect, and Hebrews 10:14 is a powerful affirmation of His sufficiency. However, we must carefully observe the dual reality that verse presents: “He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.” It’s not a static declaration of once-for-all salvation regardless of future conduct, but a picture of an ongoing sanctification process—those continually being shaped by the Spirit. While 2 Corinthians 5:17 declares we become a new creation, that new life still requires abiding (John 15:6), walking in the Spirit (Galatians 5:16), and enduring in faith (Hebrews 3:14). Scripture never portrays salvation as something inert or irrevocable apart from continued relationship. Revelation 2:10, for example, does not say martyrdom automatically guarantees heaven; rather, it calls for faithfulness unto death. The crown of life is promised to those who overcome, not merely those who begin well. The message of the New Testament consistently affirms security in Christ—not because we cannot walk away, but because we are held as long as we continue to trust, obey, and follow Him.

Thank you for continuing this respectful and meaningful conversation. These are weighty questions, and I’m grateful you’re willing to wrestle with them. To start, I agree with you that 2 Corinthians 13:5 affirms we can know whether we are truly in the faith—but the very fact that Paul commands self-examination implies that one can think they’re secure while actually being in danger of falling short. That tension is what makes the exhortation necessary. God absolutely knows who are His, but we are still called to examine, remain, continue, and overcome—not to prove anything to God, but to walk in integrity with the faith we profess.


Now to the core of your three questions:


  1. No, someone who dies in genuine faith and love for Christ—such as a martyr—will not be cast out later. But that’s not because martyrdom acts like an irreversible ticket. It’s because that person died in the faith, and Scripture consistently teaches that those who die in the Lord are blessed (Revelation 14:13). Hebrews 9:27 reminds us that after death comes judgment—not another lifetime of decisions.
  2. As to free will in heaven—while this is speculative territory—what we do know is that in the glorified state, we will be like Christ (1 John 3:2), fully sanctified and incapable of sin not because we’re forced, but because our will is in perfect union with His. That’s not the loss of free will—it’s the liberation of the will from corruption. Just as God cannot lie, not because He lacks free will, but because His nature is perfectly holy, so too will our glorified nature be.
  3. No, God doesn’t require martyrdom to know our hearts. Salvation is not earned through death for Christ but given through obedient faith in Him. But martyrdom, as Scripture frames it (Revelation 2:10), does express the full measure of fidelity—it’s not the only way, but it is a pure and ultimate demonstration of love and trust.

I understand your trust in God's ability to preserve the believer. I affirm that we are secure in His hand (John 10:28)—but only as long as we remain in His hand (John 15:6; Romans 11:22). OSAS, as often framed, assumes that faith cannot be truly abandoned after it begins. But Scripture does not make that guarantee. In fact, it repeatedly warns believers not to drift (Hebrews 2:1), not to fall away (Hebrews 6:4–6), not to be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13). These are not idle hypotheticals but Spirit-breathed cautions.


God doesn’t just want our hearts once—He wants them continually. Not because He’s insecure, but because love that endures is the true fruit of saving faith (Matthew 24:13; Colossians 1:23). So yes—we can have assurance, but not presumption. Eternal security is not false, but it is in Christ—not outside of Him, not independent of abiding, and not absent of continued faith.


Let’s keep encouraging one another—not just to believe once, but to keep the faith, finish the race, and love His appearing (2 Timothy 4:7–8).
Well said, and well written brother.
Alleluia & Amen!

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><
 
. A 'true' Christian will always desire to repent of their sins and as such never be guilty of, as per the scripture you quoted, able to continue unrepentant in sin.

Given the unrepentant, continual fornication of the man spoken of by paul in the same chapter you quote from...

"hand him over to satan for the destruction of his flesh that his spirit may be saved on the day of judgement"

how do you have it both ways at the same time?

I suppose you could argue that the unrepentant who will not inherit the kingdom of heaven, doesn't mean they won't be saved, just means they don't get much in return. but.. i would not preach such a thing..
 
Given the unrepentant, continual fornication of the man spoken of by paul in the same chapter you quote from...

"hand him over to satan for the destruction of his flesh that his spirit may be saved on the day of judgement"

how do you have it both ways at the same time?

I suppose you could argue that the unrepentant who will not inherit the kingdom of heaven, doesn't mean they won't be saved, just means they don't get much in return. but.. i would not preach such a thing..

Good question Joe.

So firstly we need to understand that Paul spoke to all in attendance at church as though they are saved. He would call them all 'brethren'. But in 1 Cor 5, we clearly see a man in a mortal sin of incest (1 Cor 5:1) was singled out and referred to as a 'brother so called' (1 Cor 5:11).

Scripture says 'hand him over that he may be saved'. IE They are not currently saved. This person is one who was a 'brethren so called'. One who 'tasted' of the whole 'Jesus, church, Holy Spirit' experience but did not have his heart in it. A Christian cannot love God at the depth required for salvation if they love sin at the depth required to harden their heart and be unrepentant in it. Any sin for that matter.

By completely abandoning someone like that, you completely change their 'daily reality' and this adds immediate perspective to the truth of a life of sin and one without Jesus. Like a last straw in trying to get them to take serving God seriously. A lot like Paul says we must remove 'brethren so called' that are in clear 'mortal' sins from church 1 Cor 5:13. If you keep them in church, they can think they are going to heaven when in fact they are not. That is a clear disservice to them. This is why the church must not overly 'accommodate' mortal sinners like homosexuals for example. You can neuter the effect of conviction of sin from a conscience and the Holy Spirit.
 
I suppose you could argue that the unrepentant who will not inherit the kingdom of heaven, doesn't mean they won't be saved, just means they don't get much in return. but.. i would not preach such a thing..

Repentance is part and parcel of salvation.

Salvation is a gift given to those that either:

A. Repent of their sins Psalm 51:17 and pass God's judgement of their heart for this Jer 17:9-10,
B. Show their heart is after God's from James 1:27 type servitude and pass God's judgement of their heart for this Jer 17:9-10 or
C. Be a martyr for Jesus Rev 2:10.

All three of these show a heart that hates what is evil. Hating what is evil leads to an inevitable true repentance of sin.

Rom 12:9 Let love be sincere; hate what is evil, hold on to what is good.
 
no such thing as unconditional salvation

the way I interrupt OSAS.

Now to be clear Jesus is faithful his gift is forever, he paid the price, salvation is forever, but some walk away from the gift, we have no way of knowing if they were are were not born again, we can look at there fruit and see some very fruitful people who have walked away, OSAS is a dangerous thing to speak about, especially when people who are young in the faith, and not fully mature yet, this doctrine does them no good and is directly against what the word of God teaches about salvation, endure to the end, work out salvation with fear and trembling.

OSAS says do not worry, you do not have nothing to fear you are good to go, you said the prayer,

IT may be true, the Bible is not clear on weather it is or not, and to think people take one side so strongly is a riddle to me
 
Where is the middle ground? Either you are OSAS (Calvinist) or non-OSAS. What other choice is there?

I assume you are familiar with the 5 tenants of Calvinism also known as TULIP.
In what way are you different from a Calvinist? That is a serious question.

As I said previously, both 'extreme' OSAS (1) and extreme non-OSAS (2) incriminate God. The middle ground, the truth is a combination of the two from our perspective (3) and only OSAS from God's perspective (after salvation is gifted) (4).

1. When you apply the U (unconditional election) and L (limited atonement) in TULIP, you incriminate God as this suggests He is partial in that He has preselected people for salvation. God is not partial Acts 10:34. Partiality is pure evil. The same evil behind racism. All 5 point Calvinists completely and utterly misrepresent God to the lost.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism''.

Debunked in its entirety by Acts 10:34.

2.
Then, as per my OP, an extreme non-OSAS belief heavily incriminates God on three items:

A.
God is a fool like a human who does not know who is His until you 'have an accidental car crash', then suddenly out of the blue, by some miracle, He knows who will remain with Him for all time and who will not. God is not a fool like a human Num 23:19, Jer 17:9-10.
B. Perverts justice as He can send to eternal damnation a person who did x, y and z, and to eternal bliss someone who only did x and y. God does not pervert justice Job 34:12.
C. God is evil in that He uses His loyal servants for more at the risk of them falling and going off into eternal punishment. God is not evil, He is good Psalm 136:1 and righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17.

Debunked in its entirety by Num 23:19, Jer 17:9-10, Job 34:12, Psalm 136:1 and Psalm 145:17.

3.
The middle ground is that we always believe:

A. God is good Psalm 136:1, will never leave nor forsake us Deut 31:8 and never be unjust. It should be unthinkable that He pervert justice and do what is evil Job 34:12.
B. We need to continue in working out our salvation in fear and trembling Phil 2:12 as we are not God that can judge the depths of hearts and minds Jer 17:9-10. We can easily think we are saved and not be 1 Cor 10:12. We can think we have faith in Jesus, but it could be self mustered and fail easily when tested.

4. God does not make the mistake of grafting a demon into heaven or kicking one out. You do not need to die for God to know your heart. God knows who are His John 10:14. As such, when we get to heaven, we can have confidence in the fact that we will never be kicked out.

----------------------------------

Conclusion:

If you can confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that He was raised from the dead, you have been gifted with saving faith Rom 12:3, 1 Cor 12:3. God has judged your heart and mind for a hatred of what is evil and you have passed. You are someone that loves God at a sufficient depth of intent. It is His great pleasure to wash you in the blood of the Lamb and graft you into His family.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 
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1. When you apply the U (unconditional election) and L (limited atonement) in TULIP, you incriminate God as this suggests He is partial in that He has preselected people for salvation. God is not partial Acts 10:34. Partiality is pure evil. The same evil behind racism. All 5 point Calvinists completely and utterly misrepresent God to the lost.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism''
One thing I have noticed over the years is the use of the word unconditional as in unconditional love. I realized God's love is "unfailing" but certainty not without condition That idea would seem to support universalism. "reincarnation"

The loving conditions are given beginning with the first and hardest work, long suffering. Having suffered long and can be kind, has no need to envy, not full off false pride, not easily provoked and because of love it rejoiced with truth as it is written. All of the conditions build up when we love one another. The first work again the hardest

God whose name as an immutable attribute is Jealous (he owns all things) but miraculously his love is not

Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
 
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