The real big problem with a non-OSAS belief

[B-A-C]

So both Calvinism and 'playing God' type non-OSAS are terribly incriminating to God. I pray you see that.

Where is the middle ground? Either you are OSAS (Calvinist) or non-OSAS. What other choice is there?

I assume you are familiar with the 5 tenants of Calvinism also known as TULIP.
In what way are you different from a Calvinist? That is a serious question.

 

[KingJ]

I see no difference. But again, I don't believe He will always save you... especially if you no longer want to be saved.

A child will always be saved because a child is a child.

You need to meditate more on what it takes to become a Christian. That is the root of our disagreement.

God does not wash clean in His blood and graft into His family a demon that would one day, any day from now to eternity, love the darkness over hating it.

That is the verdict of separation!. John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

 

[KingJ]

Up to a point. Yes that's exactly what I'm saying. If someone doesn't want to die, they try to avoid dying. Also if they get close to dying, they will likely cry out for help.

Take a step back and meditate on the fact that you believe it is ok for a parent to abandon their child to die in the desert, all because they become a unruly after ten or so days.

A parent should never abandon a child.

 

[B-A-C]

A parent should never abandon a child.

True... but children abandon parents all the time. There are dozens of verses about people who abandoned (forsook) God.
He didn't force them to stay with Him.

Post in thread 'The real big problem with a non-OSAS belief'

Jun 11, 2025

Deut 29:25 "Then men will say, 'Because they forsook the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them out of the land of Egypt.
Deut 32:15 "But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked—You are grown fat, thick, and sleek—Then he forsook God who made him, And scorned the Rock of his salvation.
Jdgs 2:12 and they forsook the LORD, the God of their fathers, who had brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods from among the gods of the peoples who were around them, and bowed themselves down to them; thus they provoked...

• B-A-C

 

[KingJ]

ROFL! Of course you won't, because you can't! You're completely unable to rebut the scriptural imperatives, and so you must slime away.

Nope, I can and I have before. I too can go and find past rebuttals.

You are missing the point I made though. There is simply no rebuttal that will make you change your mind. You are coming across as unteachable and holding onto an insane idea of God.

Grasp and deal with the fact that you are holding onto an insane belief of God and that every person on this planet will say the example I gave is clearly unjust.

 

[KingJ]

True... but children abandon parents all the time. There are dozens of verses about people who abandoned (forsook) God.
He didn't force them to stay with Him.

Post in thread 'The real big problem with a non-OSAS belief'

Jun 11, 2025

Deut 29:25 "Then men will say, 'Because they forsook the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them out of the land of Egypt.
Deut 32:15 "But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked—You are grown fat, thick, and sleek—Then he forsook God who made him, And scorned the Rock of his salvation.
Jdgs 2:12 and they forsook the LORD, the God of their fathers, who had brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods from among the gods of the peoples who were around them, and bowed themselves down to them; thus they provoked...

• B-A-C

BAC, there were no Christians in the OT. If you would just grasp the difference between a Christian and a non Christian, we would stop going in circles.

God only gives a revelation of Jesus as Lord 1 Cor 12:3, Rom 10:9 to those who pass His judgement of their heart and mind Jer 17:9-10.

If you want to believe God can make mistakes of grafting a demon into His fold, then you must also believe that salvation is NEVER secure. Why you stop at death bewilders me. With your belief, any day in heaven could result in you getting booted out.....

Either God can judge properly or He can't. There is no option C.

 

[B-A-C]

If you want to believe God can make mistakes of grafting a demon into His fold, then you must also believe that salvation is NEVER secure

and yet, this is EXACTLY what the Bible says.

Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

BAC, there were no Christians in the OT. If you would just grasp the difference between a Christian and a non Christian,

No one in the OT was saved without Jesus.

​

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.'"

This verse is part of Jesus’ conversation with His disciples, affirming that He is the exclusive path to God the Father.

​

"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

 

[B-A-C]

Exodus 32:32–33 (NASB95)​

“But now, if You will forgive their sin, very well; but if not, please erase me from Your book which You have written!”
However, the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will erase him from My book.”

---

Psalm 69:28 (NASB95)​

“May they be wiped out of the book of life,
And may they not be recorded with the righteous.”

---

Revelation 3:5 (NASB95)​

“The one who overcomes will be clothed the same way in white garments, and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.”

---

Revelation 20:12 (NASB95)​

“And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.”

---

Revelation 20:15 (NASB95)​

“And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

---

Revelation 21:27 (NASB95)​

“...and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

 

[joestue]

But that's not what you teach. You teach that if a parent is with their child in the desert and the child happens to throw a tantrum and be unruly after a while in the desert, the parent will leave them to die.

we're not talking about children throwing tantrums.

losing your salvation is an adult rebellion matter.

 

[joestue]

Me stating that your belief incriminates God as unjust is not running commentary!

That God is just is a scriptural fact. Job 34:12 Unthinkable that God pervert justice.

That your belief teaches that He is unjust is a logical fact.

Please either A. Quote scripture that says God is unjust or B. Explain to me how sending a criminal next to him on the cross to eternal bliss after repentance and then someone who does that and let's say also provides 50 years of servitude but fails in year 51, to eternal damnation = Just.

Go, floor is yours.....(I am waiting with bated breath)

Why do you think the romans who killed a thief, did so justly?

if anything this proves you are insecure about how long suffering Jesus is with those who are perishing

God cannot or will not force anyone to make amends with him, when they sin in manners that cause the Holy Spirit to depart from them.

 

[KingJ]

and yet, this is EXACTLY what the Bible says.

You are misapplying scripture and not dealing with the point being made. The point is:

Fallen angels will not go back to heaven as God did not make a mistake in judgement when He removed them.

Likewise we reign with Jesus for all eternity as God does not make a mistake in judgement when He grafts us in.

To debunk OSAS you would need to show me a scripture where God throws a saint out of heaven or grafts a demon back into heaven.

Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

You need to take your non-OSAS glasses off, put OSAS glasses on () and you will see some important and relevant wording here. Note the new bolded wording.

1. Wild olive, among them, became partaker.

A Christian is not a wild olive, not among 'them', a Christian is 'them', certainly not a 'partaker', a Christian is a temple of God.

1 Cor 3:16 Do you not know that you are God's temple, and that God's Spirit dwells in you?"

2. Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief

A Christian is not someone who can have unbelief.

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Rom 10:9 if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Most 'fake' Christians can confess but do not believe in their heart. They are only 'partakers'.

3. Behold then the kindness / to those who fell,

God is kind to 'fake' Christians. He allows them to be 'partakers'. That they fell and did not want to assimilate, is all on them. God was completely open and accepting.

 

[KingJ]

Why do you think the romans who killed a thief, did so justly?

if anything this proves you are insecure about how long suffering Jesus is with those who are perishing

God cannot or will not force anyone to make amends with him, when they sin in manners that cause the Holy Spirit to depart from them.

You are not addressing the points made in the post you quoted.

 

[KingJ]

No one in the OT was saved without Jesus.
This verse is part of Jesus’ conversation with His disciples, affirming that He is the exclusive path to God the Father.

I agree 100% with this, but you are not dealing with the point I made.

The point is that a Christian is saved according to Rom 10:9.

Rom 10:9 if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

For this, Jesus had to die and be resurrected.

We are currently in a dispensation where God searches the depths of our hearts and minds Jer 17:9-10. Revealing Jesus as Lord to those who pass His judgement of their heart 1 Cor 12:3.

Our hearts can reveal themselves to God through true repentance Acts 20:21, servitude James 1:27 or martyrdom Rev 2:10.

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In the OT all who would make mistakes of sin but had a good heart, in that they hated sin (Rom 12:9) would be isolated to Abrahams bosom / paradise in Hades Luke 16:19-31.

Jesus fetched them and took them to heaven. That is why the scripture you gave is 100% true and correct.

--------------------------------

The only person in the entirety of scripture that could make a claim for being a Christian before the cross is Peter. In Matt 16:16-17 he was given a revelation from above that Jesus is the Messiah. And according to a number of OT scriptures, Messiah = Lord.

Matt 16:16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” 17;Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

 

[joestue]

You are not addressing the points made in the post you quoted.

I did. I asked a question..what makes you think that thief's punishment was just?

So what is it to you. If God accepts his acknowledgement of sin, on the last day of his life? Why does that offend you?

 

[KingJ]

I did. I asked a question..what makes you think that thief's punishment was just?

Quote my line, I never made that point warranting your question. You are creating a rabbit trail.

So what is it to you. If God accepts his acknowledgement of sin, on the last day of his life? Why does that offend you?

Offends me? I accept God accepting his repentance. That is not the issue. Your belief offends me. As it implies God is unjust.

I am really not making a difficult point. For the umpteenth time in this thread.....

Explain to me how God is just if he sends a criminal next to Jesus on the cross who only repented of their sins to eternal bliss and then a Christian who does this (repentance of their sins) and so much more to eternal punishment should they according to your belief ''fall from grace'' in year 51 of servitude lets say.

Go, floor is yours.....

 

[joestue]

As it implies God is unjust

No, it is your belief which makes God unjust, as in people are imprisoned in a righteous life after salvation ans cant loose their salvation

Explain to me how God is just if he sends a criminal next to Jesus on the cross who only repented of their sins to eternal bliss and then a Christian who does this (repentance of their sins) and so much more to eternal punishment should they according to your belief ''fall from grace'' in year 51 of servitude lets say.

What makes you think he was a criminal. Why not let a person ask for forgiveness on the last day?

Secondly, by definition God is just. If he chooses to let someone rebel to the point that they choose to continue in sin, harden their heart to the point they will not repent, nor ask forgiveness...thats on them!. Not God

 

[backNforth]

What makes you think he was a criminal.

It's his fav straw man. He's been demonized but won't turn it over to the Lord, so he's unable to discern the truth.

Meanwhile, he's got at least 60 posts, going back to 2015, which contain the phrase "the criminal next to Jesus."

every person on this planet will say the example I gave is clearly unjust.

He's come to love his sin, so that's where he sits - it's him against the world.

Why not let a person ask for forgiveness on the last day?

Happens every day!

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Cor. 3:15).

 

[KingJ]

No, it is your belief which makes God unjust, as in people are imprisoned in a righteous life after salvation ans cant loose their salvation

You are not answering the simple question / dealing with the very simple fact provided. You are teaching that God is unjust. I gave the reason for it. Try deal with it directly and stop dancing around it.

Using your logic, I would then assume you believe that people who make it to heaven could either A. One day be kicked out or B. Be forced to stay there against their will? imprisoned in a righteous life?

What makes you think he was a criminal.

He was on a cross.

Why not let a person ask for forgiveness on the last day?

I repeat, I have no issue with that.

Secondly, by definition God is just.

No. God is not just because He is God. God is just because He is just.

You are teaching falsely and misrepresenting God. Don't do that, you will stumble the weak and lost.

If he chooses to let someone rebel to the point that they choose to continue in sin, harden their heart to the point they will not repent, nor ask forgiveness...thats on them!. Not God

Good point. Would you say that God knows the point in a persons life where they are beyond saving? IE Completely hardened their heart, will no longer be able to truly repent, no more mercy required as it will be wasted. Scripture is crystal clear that He does. He drops fire and brimstone, rain water, unleashes the devil on the wicked who are sold out to a love of what is evil.

Now, if God can know when someone is beyond saving. You would bet on Him not knowing when someone is saved?

My argument is not with Him giving the wicked time and space to exercise their free will. It is with Him keeping the saved on earth to serve Him at the risk of them losing their salvation and finding themselves in ETERNAL DAMNATION as a result.

-------------------------

There is a criteria to salvation. You need to stop making up your own.

The criteria to salvation / Christianity 101 is mentioned in Rom 10:9.

Rom 10:9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[KingJ]

joestue said:
What makes you think he was a criminal.

It's his fav straw man. He's been demonized but won't turn it over to the Lord, so he's unable to discern the truth. Meanwhile, he's got at least 60 posts, going back to 2015, which contain the phrase "the criminal next to Jesus."

Huh?

Romans would only place criminals guilty of crimes they refused to tolerate and wanted an example made of, on crosses

He's come to love his sin, so that's where he sits - it's him against the world.

Many extremer OSAS believers do hold to it as they do want to hold to their sin. This is true.

This does not make OSAS false though. OSAS is a belief that defends God. As non-OSAS is a belief that 'clearly' incriminates God. I have explained why, still waiting for logical, rational, sane rebuttals.

 

[Dave M]

If people are not humble enough to simply say I do not know, because the word of God is not 100% clear on OSAS.