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The real big problem with a non-OSAS belief

Christianity is post gospels.
Acts 11:26:
"And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."
So, if He does not require martyrdom, where do we draw a line in the sand on either of the following? When do these 'works' equal the same depth of intent as what is required for martyrdom?

1. Faith
2. Endurance / sinless perfection
3. Servitude

How many years of service is enough for salvation? How much self mustered faith is enough for salvation? How many refusals to watch porn is enough for salvation?
This is an honest and deeply necessary question—and it strikes at the heart of what salvation truly is. The short answer is: none of these “works” are ever enough. Not years of service, not gritted-teeth endurance, not even our best moments of resisting sin. Salvation has never been about a measurable quota of deeds, sacrifices, or willpower. It is not the cumulative result of our martyrdom-like faithfulness, but the result of Christ’s finished work on the cross and our obedient response to it through faith, repentance, baptism in His name, and receiving the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:38). We don’t earn salvation by how well we serve or how perfectly we resist sin—we walk in it daily because we’ve received salvation as a gift and now live to please the One who gave it.


That said, true salvation is not passive or stagnant. It produces fruit—faith that endures trials, a heart that resists sin, and hands that serve. But we must never confuse the fruit for the root. The moment we start measuring our worthiness for heaven by how many times we resisted temptation or how long we’ve served, we’ve missed the cross. The line in the sand isn’t drawn by years or perfection—but by whether we’ve surrendered completely to Jesus, allowed His Spirit to dwell in us, and are walking in ongoing obedience and love. We’re not trying to be good enough for salvation—we’re being made like Him because we’ve been saved. That’s grace at work.
 
Same secular Calvinistic junk and blabbering commentary, different thread.

Nothing Calvinistic. Calvinists make a meal of OSAS and completely misrepresent God in another direction by implying that He is partial.

At least you get that it is A, B, C. 1+1 =2 argument that you are evading.

If you can't provide a rational argument to my post # 55 you are evading and unteachable.

I am glad I did not waste my time typing a full rebuttal to your first post when you can't even grasp or accept the simple and logical facts in post # 55.
 
none of this..

provides any evidence to say that your prior statement is true:

People can, and have, turned their back and begun to hate God, after previously loving him.

Insecurities as a result of the Holy Spirit not bearing witness to the matter in their hearts.

You are just not grasping what I am trying to tell you. You mind is in a cage.

I repeat for the last time.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to HATE God at the level required to be kicked out of heaven if you LOVE Him at the level required for Him to GIFT you with salvation.

And...if you don't agree with that, then you believe that either A. One day in heaven, in say year fifty million He can kick you out or B. That He is completely and utterly unjust in how He selects people for heaven. One year of servitude required of me, ten years from you, four hours from the thief on the cross. There is no ''C''. Shocking you don't ''get'' this.

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All you and others are doing is dancing around my logical 'duh, 1+1=2' facts. You have not and are not dealing with the accusations I have made of your belief in my OP.

Imagine being ok with a belief that clearly incriminates God....
 
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I have always wondered why OSAS people are so persistent? If we can't get "un-saved", then what's the problem? Why the worry? Why the warnings?

Paul gave many warnings as he did not want wicked people to think they are ok with God. He was crystal clear in 1 Cor 6:9-12 for example.

But at the same time, he did not want Christians to feel like they need to earn and work for their salvation, afraid that they can lose it and be abandoned by God at any moment.

Calvinism is the wrong extreme on the one side and as per my OP many non-OSAS believers are on the other extreme. Both equally guilty of misrepresenting God.

Why? If I can't lose it, why do I need to be warned about it?

The warning is about non-OSAS not OSAS.

WARNING: Your arm is attached to your body, you can't accidentally lose it.

It seems if OSAS people really believed what they are preaching... they wouldn't need to tell anyone.

This reminds me of an old joke.

How do you know if someone is a vegetarian?
Wait five minutes and they'll tell you.

Quite crazy that you make such jokes about the topic.

Your teaching implies that God can send you to eternal suffering in hell if you make a mistake this year. You may be ok with that as you may live in a bottle. But teaching others this ridiculousness will stumble them.

I think the problem with most of you extreme non-OSAS believers is that you can't grasp eternal hell and suffering. Thereby not grasping how badly you are incriminating God.

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I like how yet another non-OSAS believer post ignores and makes a joke of the accusations of their belief in my OP. :rolleyes:
 
Acts 11:26:
"And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."

A Christian is a new creation in Christ. Disciples became Christians. Jesus had to die. The Holy Spirit had to come. Before Christianity was possible.

This is Sunday school teaching.

This is an honest and deeply necessary question—and it strikes at the heart of what salvation truly is. The short answer is: none of these “works” are ever enough. Not years of service, not gritted-teeth endurance, not even our best moments of resisting sin. Salvation has never been about a measurable quota of deeds, sacrifices, or willpower. It is not the cumulative result of our martyrdom-like faithfulness, but the result of Christ’s finished work on the cross

Agreed.


and here we go in yet another circle....

our obedient response to it through faith

How much mustered up faith exactly? and what type of faith? and in what?

, repentance

How much repentance? Everyday for one year, two years?

, baptism in His name, and receiving the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:38).

Do you agree that there is a difference between 'shared in' and 'receiving' the Holy Spirit?

We don’t earn salvation by how well we serve or how perfectly we resist sin—we walk in it daily because we’ve received salvation as a gift and now live to please the One who gave it.

Correct.

That said, true salvation is not passive or stagnant. It produces fruit—faith that endures trials,

Correct. Fruits are an inevitability from a true conversion. Not vice versa. Horse, cart.

But we must never confuse the fruit for the root.

And here we go in yet another circle. The root of a Christian is solid. Our house is built on a rock 1 Cor 10:4.

The moment we start measuring our worthiness for heaven by how many times we resisted temptation or how long we’ve served, we’ve missed the cross.

Correct.

The line in the sand isn’t drawn by years or perfection—but by whether we’ve surrendered completely to Jesus,

100% Correct.

allowed His Spirit to dwell in us, and are walking in ongoing obedience and love. We’re not trying to be good enough for salvation—we’re being made like Him because we’ve been saved. That’s grace at work.

Correct.

-----------------

I am surprised you are not an OSAS believer after this post.

-----------------

A non-OSAS will now come and add, 'BUT' should you fall into temptation and commit adultery when God places you in a ministry to prostitutes in year fifty five of faithful service and obedience...... He will then send you to eternal damnation where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth from separation and suffering in fire, like the demon you are.

Let's all rejoice and thank God for cough cough salvation and cough cough keeping us and never forsaking us cough cough and for being so ....just cough cough. :rolleyes:
 
The warning is about non-OSAS not OSAS.

What is the difference to you?

If someone says... WARNING, you can drown in the middle of the desert even though there is no water here. That may be crazy, and wrong.
But what does it hurt?

If someone says... WARNING, you can't drown in the middle of the desert, it may be correct, but it's just a crazy to give a warning about it.

If on the other hand...

Someone says... WARNING, you can drown in the ocean. Well OK, that make sense.

Someone else says, no that's impossible, you can't possibly ever drown no matter what.

Someone is right, someone is wrong.... but which has the greater consequence?
 
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Deut 29:25 "Then men will say, 'Because they forsook the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them out of the land of Egypt.
Deut 32:15 "But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked—You are grown fat, thick, and sleek—Then he forsook God who made him, And scorned the Rock of his salvation.
Jdgs 2:12 and they forsook the LORD, the God of their fathers, who had brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods from among the gods of the peoples who were around them, and bowed themselves down to them; thus they provoked the LORD to anger.
Jdgs 2:13 So they forsook the LORD and served Baal and the Ashtaroth.
Jdgs 10:6 Then the sons of Israel again did evil in the sight of the LORD, served the Baals and the Ashtaroth, the gods of Aram, the gods of Sidon, the gods of Moab, the gods of the sons of Ammon, and the gods of the Philistines; thus they forsook the LORD and did not serve Him.
1Kin 9:9 "And they will say, 'Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and adopted other gods and worshiped them and served them, therefore the LORD has brought all this adversity on them.'"
2Kin 17:16 They forsook all the commandments of the LORD their God and made for themselves molten images, even two calves, and made an Asherah and worshiped all the host of heaven and served Baal.
2Kin 21:22 So he forsook the LORD, the God of his fathers, and did not walk in the way of the LORD.
2Chr 7:22 "And they will say, 'Because they forsook the LORD, the God of their fathers who brought them from the land of Egypt, and they adopted other gods and worshiped them and served them; therefore He has brought all this adversity on them.'"
2Chr 12:1 When the kingdom of Rehoboam was established and strong, he and all Israel with him forsook the law of the LORD.
Isa 54:7 "For a brief moment I forsook you, But with great compassion I will gather you.
Jer 22:9 "Then they will answer, 'Because they forsook the covenant of the LORD their God and bowed down to other gods and served them.'"

1Kin 11:4 For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been.
1Kin 11:5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and after Milcom the detestable idol of the Ammonites.
1Kin 11:6 Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not follow the LORD fully, as David his father had done.
1Kin 11:7 Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable idol of Moab, on the mountain which is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the detestable idol of the sons of Ammon.

Exod 32:3 Then all the people tore off the gold rings which were in their ears and brought them to Aaron.
Exod 32:4 He took this from their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool and made it into a molten calf; and they said, "This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt."
Exod 32:5 Now when Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made a proclamation and said, "Tomorrow shall be a feast to the LORD."
Exod 32:6 So the next day they rose early and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.
Exod 32:7 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, "Go down at once, for your people, whom you brought up from the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves.
Exod 32:8 "They have quickly turned aside from the way which I commanded them. They have made for themselves a molten calf, and have worshiped it and have sacrificed to it and said, 'This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt!'"

Ezek 28:13 "You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared.
Ezek 28:14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezek 28:15 "You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.
Ezek 28:16 "By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.

1Tim 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
 
Luke 8:11 "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Luke 8:13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:14 "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
Luke 8:15 "But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

Verse 12, these people are never saved.
Verse 13, these people "believe for a while" and then fall away.
Verse 14, these people even start to bear fruit (which they couldn't do without Jesus) but it never fully matures.
Verse 15, these people stay faithful and bear much fruit.

Three out of four were saved at one time.

Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Only Christians are "partakers of the Holy Spirit". If salvation is a "gift" from God, then these people have tasted the heavenly "gift".
Also, you can't do something "again" unless you've already done it at least once. I can't crucify Jesus "again" unless I already did it once. I can't repent "again" unless I already did it once.
 
There is no salvation of God,
in the worker of iniquity.

True or false?
True....but why? The worker of iniquity does not trust Jesus. Thats in the Word

Ephesians 2:8-9​


8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


9 Not of works, lest any man should boast
 
Not of works, lest any man should boast

true, but yet...

Jas 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
 
Just as you freely accepted Jesus in your life you can also freely choose to stop serving him. Jesus said with his own mouth; (Matt. 24:13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. That is until the end of your life, or until the Second Coming of the Lord. People are being taught that once you are quote “saved” that you can never fall to the spiritually lost condition. This is not true and totally unbiblical. To teach someone that all they have to do is believe on Christ and you are saved is a doctrine of the devil.

Paul said in (1 Cor. 15:1-2) (v.1) MOREOVER, brethren, I declare unto the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; (v.2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. Paul is telling you right here that you are saved by the gospel that he preached unto you if you keep it in memory. So what happens if you don’t keep it in memory? Then you have believed in vain you have believed for nothing that’s what vain means.
 
Post #55: B. Explain to me how sending a criminal next to him on the cross to eternal bliss after repentance and then someone who does that and let's say also provides 50 years of servitude but fails in year 51, to eternal damnation = Just.
If you can't provide a rational argument to my post # 55 you are evading and unteachable.
That's the same garbage you tossed out here in your other thread 2½ years ago and several times since.

"Just" is not defined by your (or my) "rational argument;" it is defined by Almighty God himself, which is who you have been avoiding continually in your pet OSAS false doctrine.

After ten years of debate, I have yet to find a single anti-Osas believer capable of logical thought. One who can provide a coherent rebuttal to arguments raised. The following arguments were raised in a recent discussion and the replies were just shocking, they attest to the truth of OSAS and the true satanic nature behind an anti-OSAS belief.

1. Criminal next to Jesus on cross - Instant salvation

Instant and / or four hour long conversion on the cross beside Jesus. Then promised eternal bliss. No ''works'' required.

2. Criminal next to Jesus on the cross - no works
This is the foundation of sand upon which you reside, spewing your sucker bait - repeatedly.

I will address your cherry picking as I get time.
and
am glad I did not waste my time typing a full rebuttal to your first post...
ROFL! Of course you won't, because you can't! You're completely unable to rebut the scriptural imperatives, and so you must slime away.

Your posts on this site, promoting the OSAS heresy, are prolific. For instance, you mention "cherry picking" in a whopping 124 posts. Of course, you never pursue the scriptural imperatives but reside in accusations and innuendo. SlimeShame on you.

Folks, the poster didn't pick up his OSAS heresy from the Holy Bible, because it isn't there. He picked it up because he listened to some other source, some extra biblical voice. And that spirit seeks to pollute this entire thread, as it tried with the same OP 2½ years ago. The enemy has many dragging his false doctrine into social marketplaces and trying to literally talk us to death with it. In a land of opinions, where truth is tolerated but largely ignored, Satan reigns.

With OSAS, there's no exhortation to holiness (quite the opposite). No call to righteous living. No need to dress for success, as per the spiritual battle (Ephesians 6). No need to be an overcomer. The fruits of OSAS are vanity and vexation of spirit, as Satan laughs.

OSAS is yet another heresy, another false doctrine on the apostasy platter. You would be wise to not sit at that table, not eat of that, not partake of that junk food. That heresy is antithetical to the entire Holy Bible with its running theme of personal accountability.

OSAS promotes lethargy and laziness and pride and contention and ultimately separation from God. Like infant baptism, OSAS is a queer doctrine that would negate the believer's requirement to practice righteousness.

That man is in bondage. Pray that the scales would be removed from his eyes, even as there must be heresies such as OSAS so that the truth may be made manifest. To those of us with eyes to see, let this be a warning for us to always seek after righteousness rather than the lure of humanistic drivel and "something shiny."

Meanwhile, the scriptural imperatives remain abundant and clear. However, the truth is the first casualty in this info war because people are not regularly partaking of it, preferring instead to listen to their lying hireling "pastor$" and the like. The solution is to stop following the follies of men and start earnestly reading the Holy Bible.

OSAS is a contrivance, an Op/Ed piece, that belongs next to the horoscopes section of your local newspaper, as a parody of what happens when the whole truth of the matter, the Holy Bible, is ignored.
 
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true, but yet...

Jas 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Works of faith are not what we're talking about. We trust (faith) and we act on that trust. Works of faith though, come after salvation
 
What is the difference to you?

If someone says... WARNING, you can drown in the middle of the desert even though there is no water here. That may be crazy, and wrong.
But what does it hurt?

But that's not what you teach. You teach that if a parent is with their child in the desert and the child happens to throw a tantrum and be unruly after a while in the desert, the parent will leave them to die.

Someone else says, no that's impossible, you can't possibly ever drown no matter what.

This is not an example of OSAS. A better example would be a parent will always rescues you if you are drowning.

Someone is right, someone is wrong.... but which has the greater consequence?

So both Calvinism and 'playing God' type non-OSAS are terribly incriminating to God. I pray you see that.

---------------

The truth is that either we are a true or a fake Christian. As simple as that. Either we are a child of God or we are not.
 
Tell a lie enough and people will believe it.

If you believe that line is a lie then you must also believe that just because Jesus died for us on the cross does not guarantee Him loving us for all eternity in heaven. Maybe in year 50 million you will get kicked out?

You are dancing around my accusations of your belief. Please directly address the accusations raised in the OP and post # 55.
 
But that's not what you teach. You teach that if a parent is with their child in the desert and the child happens to throw a tantrum and be unruly after a while in the desert, the parent will leave them to die.

Up to a point. Yes that's exactly what I'm saying. If someone doesn't want to die, they try to avoid dying. Also if they get close to dying, they will likely cry out for help.

But there are other's who WANT to die. They don't want to be saved any longer. They are no longer trying to avoid death. They are no longer crying out for help... In that case... Yes He will give you what you want.
 
This is not an example of OSAS. A better example would be a parent will always rescues you if you are drowning.

I see no difference. But again, I don't believe He will always save you... especially if you no longer want to be saved.
 
That's the same garbage you tossed out here in your other thread 2½ years ago and several times since.

"Just" is not defined by your (or my) "rational argument;" it is defined by Almighty God himself, which is who you have been avoiding continually in your pet OSAS false doctrine.

This is the foundation of sand upon which you reside, spewing your sucker bait - repeatedly.

Ok, so that's your answer. God is ''''just'''' because He is '''''God'''''.

Wow what an insane idea of God. If the devil was in power you would serve him, as he would then be ''''god''' and therefore '''''just''''.

I want you to meditate on the fact that every person on this planet with a working brain will conclude that God is unjust in the example I gave.

Even the prophets always explained why God was just. They never merely said '''He is God, therefore He is just''.

God is good, because His mercy endures forever Psalm 136:1.

God is good, because He is just!. It should be unthinkable that He pervert justice Job 34:12.
 
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