• Welcome to Talk Jesus

    A true bible based, Jesus centered online community.

    Join over 10,000 members today

    Register Log In

  • Hi Guest!

    I've added a brand new "Night Mode" option to our site design. I'd greatly appreciate your vote on this poll here.

    To switch to or from Light / Night mode simply click on Site Menu icon on top and on the dropdown choose "Switch to Night Mode" or "Switch to Light Mode"

    Thank you.

The Rapture

DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE RAPTURE?


  • Total voters
    21
New Member
Just some quick thoughts, one although alot of people especially Babtist believe in the rapture and say "Its in the Bible" Its not in the Bible. They often use 2 verses in revelations to prove their point. While also scaring kids into false faith (not all people, but alot are living a scared faith.) 2, throughout the Bible, who are taken away? The believer or the non-believer? In most cases its the non-believer. (Like what happened to the people who worshiped the golden calf.) No the Bible doesnt tell us, although it does have 2 verses in Revelations saying "there were 2 men in the field"---"and his companion was taken up." The Bible doesnt explicitly state the cause of the mans disapearence. In most cases in the Bible the non believer is the one taken away. Leaving the believers on earth to suffer and wait until the coming of Christ. But the Bible does not support a definitivabout e "rapture" making the claim of it being an upcoming event is a hypothesis, and can not be proved by the Bible. Making it a false statement to say its true. In the end its who we place our faith in, and not all the nooks and crannies. God bless!!!
 
Loyal Member
Top Poster Of Month
Just some quick thoughts, one although alot of people especially Babtist believe in the rapture and say "Its in the Bible" Its not in the Bible. They often use 2 verses in revelations to prove their point. While also scaring kids into false faith (not all people, but alot are living a scared faith.) 2, throughout the Bible, who are taken away? The believer or the non-believer? In most cases its the non-believer. (Like what happened to the people who worshiped the golden calf.) No the Bible doesnt tell us, although it does have 2 verses in Revelations saying "there were 2 men in the field"---"and his companion was taken up." The Bible doesnt explicitly state the cause of the mans disapearence. In most cases in the Bible the non believer is the one taken away. Leaving the believers on earth to suffer and wait until the coming of Christ. But the Bible does not support a definitivabout e "rapture" making the claim of it being an upcoming event is a hypothesis, and can not be proved by the Bible. Making it a false statement to say its true. In the end its who we place our faith in, and not all the nooks and crannies. God bless!!!
You need to read the bible again..And this time you need to look for the catching up of the saints....It IS there.
 
New Member
You need to read the bible again..And this time you need to look for the catching up of the saints....It IS there.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the LORD in the air. And so we will be with the LORD forever.

The word air in Greek ment breathe, the breath of life, your spiritual body. NOT atmosphere, NOT sky,
Paul spoke colloquial Greek, so when he says cloud, he deosnt mean a sky cloud. This term would mean a cloud of blackbirds, or a Cloud of fish. He means a "cloud" of people. In Hebrews chapter 12 Paul says "We Christians are going together as a great cloud of witnesses..." Its a figure of speech. In Ezekiel God says to beware of false teaching, that hes tired of his children being subjugated to the worlds lies. Ezekiel talks about women (its itallicized meaning all people) sewing pillowsto cover up Gods word. Teaching people to fly to save their souls. In the next couple verses God says. "I am against your Pillows.." Anyways looking foreward for you to respond, helps me study more and think alot. God bless you man!
 
New Member
Also, who is taken up by the Lord in the Bible?

Check out the patterns for pre-trib: A) God removing Enoch from the earth that had become so wicked and before God’s wrath to come.

B) Noah and his family were isolated from the world and rose above the earth (by water) so he would not have to endure God’s wrath upon the earth. God himself shut the door to the ark, just like he shut the door in Matthew 25, Luke 13, Isaiah 26 and Revelation 3. God told him 120 years in advance to prepare. Everything was ready when God told him to enter the ark before the rains came. He entered his room before God's wrath.

C) Rahab (the gentile) accepted the Lord before the Israelites marched for 7 days around Jericho. She was promised to be rescued from death before the 7 days even started. She represents the gentile church who accepted the Lord almost 2000 years ago. The church was promised that they were "not destined for wrath".

D) Angels forcibly removed Lot and his family from Sodom. He told them to leave the area, He did not promise to protect them where they were. Scriptures clearly say that His wrath could not come down until Lot and his family were removed. See the picture? God forcibly taking His beloved to save them from His wrath...

E) The Israelites were protected from God’s wrath against Egypt. Not only did God have the Israelites strategically placed away from the Egyptians, none of the plagues that struck Egypt proper affected them.

F) Jesus warned the Christians to leave Jerusalem when they see it surrounded by armies. He told them to leave the area, He did not promise to protect them where they were.

G) God warned the Jews that they need to flee when they see the Anti-Christ. He told them to leave the area, He did not promise to protect them where they were. H) Jesus warned us of God’s coming wrath and how to escape it. God did not make Noah live on the on the earth to be washed away with the flood. God did not make Lot go through the destruction of Sodom. The Flood and the fire upon Sodom was God's wrath. We are not destined for God's wrath. Would you like some pre-trib verses? 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 - 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. (We will meet the Lord in the air. It is not a picture of Him coming to the earth. He collects us, not the angels like in Matt. 24:31) 1 Thessalonians 1:10 - and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead--Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. (Rescues you from wrath) Revelation 3:10-11 – 10 ‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (Keep you from the testing) Isaiah 26:19-21 – 19 “Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, and the earth will give birth to the departed spirits. 20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms and close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while until indignation runs its course. 21 For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity (gathered before the wrath and put it rooms) Luke 21:36 – 36 "But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man." (strength to escape) Luke 21:28 - When these things BEGIN to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” (When these things BEGIN to take place) Revelation 5:9-10 - 9 And they sang a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open the seals thereof: for you were slain, and have redeemed us to God by your blood out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And have made us unto our God a kingdom and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.” (His blood made those in Heaven Kings and Priests in Revelation 5) Psalms 27:5 - For in the day of trouble he will keep me safe in his dwelling; he will hide me in the shelter of his tabernacle and set me high upon a rock. (He will hide us in HIS dwelling) Zephaniah 2:3 - Seek the Lord, all you humble of the land, you who do what he commands. Seek righteousness, seek humility; perhaps you will be sheltered on the day of the Lord's anger. (He will shelter us) Psalm 57:1 - my God, have mercy on me, for in you I take refuge. I will take refuge in the shadow of your wings until the disaster has passed. (refuge under the Lord) Revelation 4:4 - Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads. (Who are these people and how did they get to Heaven before the tribulation?) Revelation 5:9-10 - 9 And they sang a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open the seals thereof: for you were slain, and have redeemed us to God by your blood out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And have made us unto our God a kingdom and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.” (Notice “redeemed us by your blood” and “made us unto our God a kingdom and priests” ) These 24 elders cannot be angels or Levites because neither of them have salvation through the blood of Jesus.
Show less
 
Loyal Member
Top Poster Of Month
1 Thessalonians 4:17 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the LORD in the air. And so we will be with the LORD forever.

The word air in Greek ment breathe, the breath of life, your spiritual body. NOT atmosphere, NOT sky,
Paul spoke colloquial Greek, so when he says cloud, he deosnt mean a sky cloud. This term would mean a cloud of blackbirds, or a Cloud of fish. He means a "cloud" of people. In Hebrews chapter 12 Paul says "We Christians are going together as a great cloud of witnesses..." Its a figure of speech. In Ezekiel God says to beware of false teaching, that hes tired of his children being subjugated to the worlds lies. Ezekiel talks about women (its itallicized meaning all people) sewing pillowsto cover up Gods word. Teaching people to fly to save their souls. In the next couple verses God says. "I am against your Pillows.." Anyways looking foreward for you to respond, helps me study more and think alot. God bless you man!
You're looking to me to respond? To what? You're looking at the word like a literary group looks at a work of their favorite author...They always try to tell the author what he meant in his work....All he meant though, is what he said! If the Word says it one way, who are we to Translate it to something else for our comfort? I mean, that's just stupid, right?
So let's not, you and I, translate the Word to something it does not say. The rapture is an actual event where the bride is caught up to meet Jesus in the air. Clouds included.
 
Active Member
The more I read about the rapture, the more I see that as an idea it's a symptom of a deep misunderstanding of God's plan for the world. There's a strong line of thinking (not necessarily on this forum) that our ultimate destination is to go to heaven to be with God for ever.

In fact the Bible never directs us to put our home in going to heaven, and I'm not really sure how this idea got to be so widespread. All the New Testament emphasis is on being resurrected - rising from the grave and being given a glorified body to reign with Christ when he returns.

I can see how rapture teaching might be attractive to a going-to-heaven version of Christianity, but it makes little sense in the framework of the New Testament teaching.

Here's a reminder of what Paul says to the Corinthians. 1 Corinthians 15:50-56

What I am saying, brothers and sisters, is this: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I will tell you a mystery! We will not all die, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When this perishable body puts on imperishability, and this mortal body puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will be fulfilled:

‘Death has been swallowed up in victory.’

‘Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?’

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
Active Member
Hekuran -- there's a rapture -- the Church is taken up by Jesus Christ in the air -- it's talked about in 1 Thessalonians 4 :15 - end of chapter. The debate has been as to the timing of it. There is the pre-trib , mid-trib and post-tribulation time frames for that rapturing / taking up / Of the body of believers known as the Church.

And there's also the passage that talks about two out in the field -- one is taken and the other left -- and two being in bed -- one being taken and the other left. The believers being the one's taken up and the non-believer 'left behind."

Actually -- when a person reads the end of Revelation - chapter 20 or so. "heaven" is going to be brought down to this earth in the form of the New Jerusalem / the Holy City.

But -- after Jesus Christ was resurrected from the dead -- proving He was indeed the Son of God. -- He ascended back up into heaven. He did That so that the Holy Spirit could come. The point being that He ascended up to heaven, they watched Him. And the angel said not to be afraid or 'whatever' because He Would come back in the future. So -- Biblically - we Do think of heaven as being 'up in the sky somewhere'.

Our everlasting heavenly home will be right here on earth -- After the old earth has been destroyed. It's all in the book of Revelation.

And we Will be given a new , glorified body -- completely free of sin -- upon our death or being raptured up -- which ever happens first.

And, yes, our victory Is through Jesus Christ . the Son of God.
 
Active Member
Hekuran -- there's a rapture -- the Church is taken up by Jesus Christ in the air -- it's talked about in 1 Thessalonians 4 :15 - end of chapter. The debate has been as to the timing of it. There is the pre-trib , mid-trib and post-tribulation time frames for that rapturing / taking up / Of the body of believers known as the Church.

And there's also the passage that talks about two out in the field -- one is taken and the other left -- and two being in bed -- one being taken and the other left. The believers being the one's taken up and the non-believer 'left behind."

Actually -- when a person reads the end of Revelation - chapter 20 or so. "heaven" is going to be brought down to this earth in the form of the New Jerusalem / the Holy City.

But -- after Jesus Christ was resurrected from the dead -- proving He was indeed the Son of God. -- He ascended back up into heaven. He did That so that the Holy Spirit could come. The point being that He ascended up to heaven, they watched Him. And the angel said not to be afraid or 'whatever' because He Would come back in the future. So -- Biblically - we Do think of heaven as being 'up in the sky somewhere'.

Our everlasting heavenly home will be right here on earth -- After the old earth has been destroyed. It's all in the book of Revelation.

And we Will be given a new , glorified body -- completely free of sin -- upon our death or being raptured up -- which ever happens first.

And, yes, our victory Is through Jesus Christ . the Son of God.
We agree that our eternal destiny is here on earth after God has finally dealt with death and decay, and that Jesus wins the victory for us,

Given that our God-given place and purpose is on earth, how does being raptured away make sense? God's plan is for all creation to be reconciled to Jesus -- not to abandon it.

The passage describing two in a field, one being taken, is most definitely about judgement, not rapture. It's likened to the flood of Judgement in Noah's day. I think the best way to understand this is that Jesus is talking about the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem.

And us meeting Jesus in the sky? We rise up as a welcoming party and accompany Jesus on the final stage of his triumphant return to earth, much as the citizens of Philippi would have come out to greet a visiting Roman dignitary.

So, I think the interpretation of the Biblical passages used to support the idea of rapture is weak. But, more important, it's a theology that encourages many (not accusing you or anyone in particular of this) to drift into escapism. "What happens on earth matters little, because I am ready to be snatched away from it at any moment".
 
Active Member
Because after the Church Is taken up to heaven -- there will be the marriage super of the Lamb. That's what we will be up there for. And Then we will be returning to earth With Christ to reign with Him on this earth during those next 1,000 yrs. And during that time in heaven -- the people left Here will be undergoing 7 years of tribulation. That is when the 144,000 Jews will be going out to evangelize the non-believing Jews -- That will be the last chance for God's chosen people. The Jews. There already Are Messianic Jews. But the others will still be here to be able to accept their Promised Messiah. Revelation says that multitudes Will accept.

Well --your term 'escapism' is interesting. Why Should believers be going through God's judgment? We've already accepted Him as personal Savior. When everyone who Will accept Christ Has, then 'we' will be up and out of this present world. Escaping from place suggests a sneaking out of, People 'escape' from jail / prison. They try to get out of a bad situation -- brought on by their own breaking of the law -- when they Should be staying behind bars to serve out their entire sentence.

Escaping suggests that 'we' have found a way - on our own - to leave this earth and get to heaven by ourselves. And That certainly isn't the situation.
 
Active Member
OK. I don't want to back-and-forth too much on this.

What I meant by escapism was the attitude I've sometimes heard 'it's not worth effort preserving the environment/working for justice/defending the rights of the poor because God is soon going to carry us away'.

Remember that the book of Revelation was written to Christians facing the most extreme persecution - crucifixion, lions in the colliseum. It is to give them strength and hope to endure faithfully.

Would you read the Bible passages about eternal hope with framework I've suggested and see if it makes sense. I haven't been able to tie up all the loose ends, but I do think that it fits together more coherently than anything else.

If you find a massive theological hole in what I've said, I'd want to know. I would rather gain a little more understanding than win an argument.

Blessings.
 
Active Member
What you've just described by the attitude -- Not a good one at all. That's a lazy man's attitude. I'd even question that person's being a believer. That's more like fatalism. Scripture says we are to be give an answer to the 'hope' which is within us. We Should be doing all we can to reach the unsaved around us. Our lives Should be attracting others to Him. In the midst of problems we Should be able to have an inner peace that others can observe and wonder about.

A lot of people in 3rd world countries / Middle-eastern countries Do suffer persecution Today. Lots of destruction -- seeing those war-torn countries -- Christians over There Might think they are already in the 7 yrs. tribulation. And with the extremes in Our country -- a person would almost think that the 7 yrs. has already arrived. However, the book of revelation Does describe the events occurring with each of the trumpets starting in chapter 8 -- all sort of 'stuff' starts happening.

What we're living in / through Now are gradual changes -- in government --in gay rights -- abortion, etc.

Like Scripture compares it with . A woman in labor getting ready to give birth. I've given birth to 4 babies. It starts out gradual and works up in stages to the actual birth. And some labors are short and some are longer. I had a very quick labor and delivery as well as long and drawn out. The deal was though that I Knew I was pregnant and what signs to look for in months to come. AND looked forward to giving birth to that baby. We Should be looking forward to heaven and patiently working through the labor pains experienced in the process Of.

And, yes, we Should be taking care of the space around us. Our personal space, property. We should be setting a Good example not a bad one.
 
Active Member
running a race is about rewards,

inheritance is about salvation,

one you earn and can loose,

one is a gift very simple.

Peace
If you can lose your salvation, then you can't tell people Jesus is your Savior yet until you get to Heaven.

Therefore the race is not about salvation, but for obtaining the eternal glory that comes with our salvation to be that vessel unto honor in His House. Failing to look to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin is the risk of being disqualified and thus left behind as a vessel unto dishonor in His House to be resurrected later on, AFTER Jesus has returned to earth and had defeated the world's armies, and put Satan in the pit for a thousand years.

Jesus was warning saved believers and His disciples the cost of discipleship for not abiding in Him and for not being willing to go when the Bridegroom comes because they loved their lives on earth more than Him to not want to leave.
 
Active Member
Being a disciple of Christ -- following Him -- does come with a price. But without Christ - we are doomed to eternity in lake of fire and brimstone.

You're sounding a bit like a works' based salvation. A born-again believer will Never be free of sinning until we Are with Jesus Christ forever. And that means that even with our eyes on Christ , we Are Still human -- we Will sin -- even a Little sin. But That's not going to disqualify anyone from being 'left behind' at the time of the rapture.

The world's armies won't be entirely defeated until the very end of time After satan has been Loost from the pit after those 1,000 yrs.

The rich young ruler was doing Everything that Jesus was instructing him to do -- except being willing to leave Everything to follow Him. It was either his family or his wealth that he needed to be willing to leave behind in order to be 'saved'.

It's Not the idea of Our not being willing To go up with Christ when He returns for us because we love our lives Here too much. It's whether we've accepted Jesus Christ as our personal Savior and thus, Can be taken up to meet Him in the air.
 
One must be very careful on this rapture thing. Anti christ may be cunning enough to send a decoy anti christ to throw the chronological timing off of his appearance. For the real test for Gods children at this time is, do they know the true Christ when He come to earth. Gods word says that many, including the preacher man will worship anti christ, believing him to be the TRUE CHRIST. So you’ve been told that will happen so don’t fall victim to it.

The thing that steers me from the rapture is that it takes the free will to choose away from the individual. And that was what God intended for each child, was to they make the choice who they will follow, not that God would choose them but they choose God. It’s their choice, not Gods.

There is only one entity that will play the roll of anti christ. Anti christ is a supernatural entity, not some flesh man. There is only one entity besides God Almighty and Jesus Christ that can perform supernatural tasks known as miracles or signs and wonders. That entity is Satan himself. I didn’t say that Satan was more powerful than God or Jesus but he can sure marvel flesh man. Satan goes by many names throughout the Bible and this will be one of his last rolls to play other than that roll of being released at the end of the millennium to test Gods children for the last time, right before the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT. Satan is very very intelligent and he knows flesh man like the back of his hand. He is so sly and conning that Christ said that if Satan’s tribulation as anti christ wasn’t shortened there would be no flesh saved and IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, they shall deceive the very Elect.

They won’t deceive the Elect. Want to know just how much Christ shorted the tribulation of anti christ? TO A FIVE MONTH PERIOD. Rev 9:5 & 9:10. Don’t worry my friends, the Elect know when the real Christ makes his appearance here on earth. Paul, which is one of Gods Elect, made it very clear how to tell when the TRUE CHRIST shows up on this earth. I Cor 15:52 Paul said , in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, (which is the SEVEN TRUMP), everyone is change back in the finer/spiritual body. I didn’t say everyone overcame. But everyone that is still alive in these flesh bodies at the return of the TRUE CHRIST would be changed into the spiritual bodies. Why is everyone changed into a spiritual body? Cause the millennium begins at that point and all of Gods children that didn’t overcome out of the flesh, or worshiped anti christ thinking he was the TRUE CHRIST, will be taught the true word of God for one thousands years during the millennium, then be tested again by loosing Satan one last time to test God’s children that didn’t overcome out of the flesh. After this testing comes the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT. Those that fail to make the grade at this point will go into the lake of fire and are basically blotted out.

Some will say, I can’t believe that we are changed back into a spiritual body. Show me where God’s word says that. I will show you where God’s word states that and it’s Jesus Christ stating it. There was this woman that had gone through seven husbands, she had out lived them all, and the Sadducees came to Jesus and Him who will be her husband in the resurrection. Matt 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angles of God in heaven.

What Christ said here is, in the resurrection your wife or husband is not your wife or husband no longer. The flesh age where man and woman marry and have children is no longer taking place. There is no more birthing of children. I’m sure that when a husband and wife on earth meet again in heaven they know that they were husband and wife in the flesh but know that they are no longer a husband and wife team, but rather just sons of God or angels of God at that time.

From the foundation when God first created His children, God referred to them as sons of God and they were in that finer/spiritual body. There was not male and female. There was not a need for a male and female to birth children. The birthing of children only came about during this flesh age. The birthing of children was the method God used to put His children back on earth after He had removed them from the earth after Satan’s rebellion/overthrow.
 
Active Member
The rapture is when Christ is going to come in the air and take up the Church -- all born-again believers -- to be with Him. Every one Else will still be here. And Scripture says that No one -- except God Himself knows when That event will take place.

The rapture has nothing to do with our free will. Each person is responsible for our own decisions. I can't accept Christ for anyone Else. I either accept Christ as my personal Savior or I don't.
God is the Only know who Does know who will and who won't.

At some point in the future -- there Will be a leader who everyone Will be willing To follow. But at some point -- an evil spirit will enter him and whoever that leader is at that time - Will become the Antichrist. Actually That will be during the 7 years of tribulation -- 3 1/2 years into the 7 is when that will happen. The final 3 1/2 yrs. is called the Great Tribulation. All of That is in book of Revelation.

Those two passages in Revelation do mention 5 months. Check the context.

The 1,000 year reign of Christ Will be the one, true Jesus Christ reigning.

There's only One time when anyone will ever have a 'spiritual' body -- a glorified body -- and That will be only born-again believers when they die and or are raptured up and out of this world.
No one has had a spiritual body before being born. We are All born with an 'old nature' and upon salvation get a 'new nature'.

the Only time that people have been on this earth is when God created Adam and then Eve from Adam's rib. God created people / male and female to be able to reproduce / hence / Family.

God did Not have 'spiritual' children who He took away when Lucifer and some of the other angels rebelled and were thrown out of heaven and on to this earth. God did Not then put His children back on the earth after that. What would be the point of doing that. Lucifer became satan and the other rebelling angels became the demonic world. And That is very much on this earth - in this world. They can't be seen - the spirit world - but very much here. So God would have been putting His children back into a very sinful environment.

some of your theology sounds like the Gnostic Gospels?! Gnostic theology.

Satan didn't 'overthrow' Anything -- he was kicked out of heaven and put on this earth. He Will eventually be put into the Abyss for the 1,000 years and there will be peace during that time. And later on . he and the beast and the false prophet Will be put into the lake of fire and brimstone FOREVER.
 

Similar threads


Top