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Hi, ITZ ME.

If I take you correctly, Adam and Eve created (or at least “introduced”) evil in the world through their transgression in the Garden of Eden. And prior to this God had nothing to do with it nor had He anticipated it. In light of the grave impact of evil upon creation ever since, that apparent shortsightedness conflicts with notions of God’s perfection. He may not have comprehended evil before the eating of the fruit, but if not then he is (or was) certainly not omniscient ...
Moreover, Adam and Eve’s birthing of evil in the world can only have been an innocent crime. I know this is not a new argument, but (obviously) they had no knowledge of the distinction between good and evil prior to the crime of unlawfully acquiring that knowledge ...
But the scriptures are unequivocal about God’s capacity and historic readiness to punish sin; the Expulsion, the Noaic flood and destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah being the cornerstones of the Old Testament penal code ..
I am definitely not trying to ascribe to God any false attributes. But I do keep running into these inconsistencies which, to me, suggest that no human does (or maybe even can) comprehend His attributes accurately. If He exists at all.

Hi! 'Kirby D. P'
It seems to me that a good approach to the Biblical narrative of the Fall is to try and keep everything as human as possible. In other words, while reading, we should be asking ourselves: what would I have done in his or her situation; how would I have felt if this or that had happened to me. Not wishing to appear irreverent, I occasionally use this approach when I'm especially earnest to understand God's motives and actions. So, let's use it for this instance too regarding the the so-called probationary command not to eat of the fruit of that one tree in Eden.
I've frequently heard some accusingly say, "After all, God planted that tree there" ... putting the blame for Adam's disobedience on God, After all, God could just as easily have refrained from planting it, couldn't He?
We also have those Christians who are immersed in orthodox theology claiming that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was planted by God because He wanted to see whether newly created man was going to be obedient to Him or not! These seem to have forgotten that the Lord Jesus taught us to pray, "Lead us not into temptation". Nevertheless, there remain many who wrongly claim that God supposedly placed an enticing lure right before the inexperienced Adam and Eve as something of a test / temptation.
This makes me think of those suspicious people who secret a few coins here and there in the house just prior the arrival of the new housemaid. To find out if the maid was honest, you see! To put it mildly, I've always felt a lack of appreciation of this kind of behavior ... to put it mildly. I've also heard that some parents do the same thing with their children ... presuming to 'teach' them. But speaking as an earthly father, I expect good parents to have removed as far as possible any danger or temptation from the lives of their children.

The question we earthly parents must be daring enough to ask ourselves is: "Am I a better father than God?" ... I hardly expect so. Or could God's standards of parental conduct differ from mine, simply because He is the sovereign God? Again, I hardly expect so.

But if God did not plant that tree to put Adam and Eve to the test, why did He plant it?
The answer is that, rather than a probation and a test, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was a parable on the part of God which taught Adam and Eve the realities of the invisible heavenly world.
Eden had two trees, the Tree of Life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In the same way, the spiritual world had two realms; one which identified with the plan and purpose of God, (life), and the other identifying itself with the rebellion of Satan, (death).
Since the tree was not intended for probation and testing. the logical conclusion is that the threat of death as a result of eating its fruit was not meant as punishment but as a warning of the consequences.
Allow me explain by way of this illustration: I once lived above the 60th Parallel and it was not uncommon that the aboriginal parents would place a wood stove in the center of their one room cabins. When the stove was red hot, they would warn their child, "Do you see this stove that is so beautiful and red? You must not touch it, for when you do you'll burn yourself badly".
You can see the parallels: these parents did not put that stove in the room to test the child but simply because the reality of the season required it. If the child touched the stove and burned itself, the burning was no infliction of punishment but the inevitable consequence of the touching. So it was, when Adam and Eve lived in Eden, Satan had already rebelled in heaven and God arranged things in Eden in such a way that man had more than sufficient information and forewarning.

Not surprisingly, I've repeatedly stated my opinion in this Forum that God is only and perfectly good. God does not think in terms of testing, commandments, sin and punishment but only along lines of life, light, salvation and love. Is the light worried by the threat of darkness? Is light no more than the absence of darkness? In no way! Light can penetrate and conquer darkness, but who can shine a beam of darkness into a well-lit room? Light, so to speak, does not even know what darkness is, nor does life know the nature of death. "God is light and in Him is no darkness at all". (1John 1:5). Such is the true character and attributes of our heavenly father!
Let's now attempt to understand the situation in which Eve found herself in when the serpent told her his story:
In 1Timothy 2:14 it says: "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor". When we read carefully, this as a matter of fact was her defense when God called her to account.
Unfortunately, some Orthodox ideologues teach that, before Eve took the fruit, sin had already done its terrible work in her heart by causing her to desire to be like God. However, if this were the case with Eve, how could she say she was deceived? Simply because the serpent somehow suggested this desire to her? In that case she could have known better.
No, the deceit was much mere subtle and deadly than this.
When God created man He said He created him in his image and after his likeness. It is God's purpose that man should be a partner of God, worthy of his love. No doubt, God discussed this purpose with Adam. (to the extent the spiritual development of Adam permitted). Adam, in turn told Eve about it. In the garden of Eden, with its two special trees among the many others, they had a living story-book of God's purpose and intents for them.
We can assume therefore that Adam and Eve had a general and joyful expectation of 'being like God' at some stage in the future. In Eve, who had heard the story second-hand, this probably created a feeling that it could occur almost any time ... much the same as her belief that Cain was the man promised her by God after the Fall; Coincidentally, much the same in fact as many people nowadays expect the Lord's return 'at any time'.
The Adversary deceived Eve in the highest and most cherished aspiration she had: to be like God. Most likely, this is what caught her off guard; she failed to see through the subtle lie. After all, the fruit looked as if it might do what the serpent said it would. So, she took and ate. Eve wanted to give God a hand in reaching the high purpose. She sinned, not because she wanted the wrong thing but because she was tricked into choosing the wrong way. She never doubted what she did was right, so subtle was the deceit.

Instead of listening to the serpent, she should have gone to Adam and asked his advise, which he would have given her if he had been able; or they could have asked God to explain the matter. All this did not happen because Eve was 'honestly' deceived: she did not realize what she was doing.
Indeed, God never said her plea of deceit was invalid. He accepted it and immediately showed her a way to forgiveness and 'being like God': the way of the 'woman's seed'.
Eve's sin was a forgivable sin because it was the result of subtle deceit, not of wilful rebellion on her part. Although her desire was God's desire, her way was not God's way. Now the purpose could only be reached via Calvary, where the Second Adam was to fulfill the purpose of God without falling into subtle temptation. "Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor".

Adam was not deceived! Adam knew what he did. But before judging and condemning him, let us try to understand his position.
At this point, I'm taking the liberty of putting myself in Adam's place; I'm quite aware how far away this is from the routine theological theories concerning the event.
Let us assume (as I think we can) that Adam was not there when Eve took the fruit and ate. Let's presume he was sitting in the shade of the Tree of Life after completing some cultivating task in the garden. His wife had wandered off among the trees, and Adam is thinking of her: a gift of God, bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh; the woman he loves with a deep and tender affection. Wouldn't he gladly give everything he had for her? After a few minutes he sees her walking towards him from among the trees, her face shining with joy, a woman almost too beautiful to behold. Adam rises and approaches her. In her hand she has a beautiful fruit.,"Look Adam, I brought a fruit for you. This fruit will make us like God, as He promised you!". Adam took one look at the fruit, and he knew! Here, I'll end my little story, to ask you to stand in Adam's place.
What would you have done? There is the woman you love, your wife, the one with whom you share your most intimate life and thoughts. Unknowingly she has done something fatal, something irrevocable, and yours is the choice what to do. Would you have said: "Well, I'm sorry Eve, now you have gone and done something I won't have anything to do with. You better see for yourself how you manage to find your way out of this one?" Adam's love, his loyalty to his wife, caused him to take the fruit and eat. He could not leave her in her predicament; he had to share it with her, for otherwise he would lose her. Adam knew what he did was wrong, but his human love for the woman God gave him prevented him from considering a different course.
When he had eaten, Adam looked at Eve again, and at himself. "Come, Eve" he may have said, putting his arm around her shoulder, "Come with me".
From a figtree he took a bunch of leaves and strung them together. "Here, cover yourself", he said. She knew what he meant, for she, too, now understood what had happened. "Come with me among the shrubs", Adam said, "and let us wait for whatever is going to happen".
I put it to you that Adam sinned because he loved his wife so much, knowing full well what he did, In fact isn't that what he told God, and didn't God accept his defense'? "The woman whom Thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the fruit, and I ate". Adam's sin was a human sin of human loyalty, and therefore forgivable, even though it would take the death of the woman's seed to undo the results of his transgression.
Adam failed in that he did not run to God when he saw the terrible situation which Eve had put herself and him in. He should have asked God for a solution. But with the limited knowledge he had at the time of his Father in heaven, he decided to join Eve in her sin. Isn't there a typically human nobility about this act? Wilful, you may say. Yes, and noble too. A forgivable sin. Adam failed because he could not see how even God could come up with a plan which would save both Eve and himself, and still enable them to reach God's purpose of being like Him.
In New Testament terms, it could be said that Adam "served the creature rather than the Creator", (Rom 1:25), and this was his downfall and that of the race which would spring from him and the woman he loved. When God had told them the full consequences of their sin, Adam "called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living". And the Lord God, in a gesture of loving care and comforting foreshadowing of forgiveness "made for Adam and his wife garments of skins, and clothed them".

A few words must to be said about Genesis 3:12-13 where Adam and Eve explain to God how their sin came about. These words of Adam and Eve have almost universally been interpreted as attempts to put the blame on Eve and even on God in Adam's case, and on the serpent in Eve Is case. This is a false view of the situation. In a minimum of words the Bible records here the defense or the explanation Adam and Eve put forward to God. Especially Adam's words are revealing: "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the fruit of the tree, and I ate".
"Look, God", we can almost hear Adam say, "She is your gift to me; you took her out of me, and I love her. When she gave me the fruit she had already eaten of herself, what could I do but eat? How could I have done otherwise?"
There is no suggestion whatsoever in the Bible that God did not accept their defense. It seems to me that the words of Genesis 3:16-19 can be read as an acceptance of their plea, and at the same time of course as a detailed statement of the consequences of their sinful acts.
In one word, the consequence of their sin was: curse. Though he listened to the voice of his wife, Adam did not lose his position to her but to the one who was the instigator of her sin: Satan. Through his sin Adam, who was intended to be the head of God's creation, became the slave of Satan and his demons, who from that very moment onward began to wield their destructive authority over him, his wife, and the earth they lived in.

Was God being vindictive when He closed the way to the Tree of Life for Adam and Eve? After his gesture of forgiveness, wasn't it harsh of Him to drive them out of Eden? It was not.
The original way for Adam and Eve to attain the purpose, via the Tree of Life, had now become impossible. For Adam and Eve it would have been cruel torture if they had had to live 'for ever', (Gen 3:22). The way of the Tree of Life in the direct sense of Eden had to be closed, and the way of the second Adam took its place.

I hope that I've been of some help with explaining that the human story of sin and sickness, suffering and death is not the story of the punishment for sin inflicted by God on Adam and his descendants. It's the story of the consequences of leaving God and ending up in the sphere of influence of the Evil One. If we speak of the 'chastisement that made us whole', (which was upon Jesus), we do not see God as an angry Father who chastises, nor even as the just Judge who punishes .... but only as the loving Father who went all the way to save His children.

Our Lord Jesus is the Second Adam, the firstborn of a New Creation. A descendant of Adam, He is much more than just that! Because His entire existence started with a new act of creation by God when He sent the angel to Mary. By the power of the Word borne by Gabriel, Mary became the mother of Him, "Who would be great, and would be called the Son of the Most High".
Jesus, too, received from God a wife, a spiritual wife: the church. He, too, found Himself in the position of Adam, in that His 'wife' had committed sin. Yet here He proved to be greater than Adam, for He listened to the voice of God, even when that voice called Him to Calvary. Adam could not believe that God might have a solution for the predicament he found his wife in; Jesus was the embodiment of the love of God, and He opened the new and living way back to the throne of grace. The 'Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world' was the true second Adam, a Man who did not deem it below Himself to become the firstborn among many brethren.

Thus the Lord Jesus, as the true second Adam, received from God his wife, not flesh of His flesh, but spirit of His spirit. Without this wife, the church, the Lord would not be complete. In her He found a true and worthy object for His love. Yet, although He received her from the hand of God, He had to win her with His own blood, His own life. The first Adam received his wife from God, and lost her and himself to the control of Satan by listening to her voice instead of to God. Jesus first listened to God, first did God's will, and then called His wife and drew her with cords of divine love.

Because of his faithfulness to God and His love for His wife the earth, the whole of creation will be blessed for Jesus' sake. "For you shall go out in joy, and be led forth in peace; the mountains and the hills before you shall break forth into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. Instead of the thorn shall come up the cypress; instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle; and it shall be to the Lord for a memorial, for an everlasting sign which shall not be cut off",(Is 55:12-13).
 
Member
Wow, ITZ ME... That's a lot to digest. Thank you. I think it raises som additional questions for me, but I don't want to off half cocked.
 
Loyal
Hi! 'ThisCrossHurts"
I wish you to know that I'm happily not included in the group which you've described: "They think I'm crazy,but love Jesus so they tolerate me"
Unfortunately, it's very true that a lot of Christians hold the view that God hasn't spoken to His Church for centuries ... at least since the Reformation of the 1600's. I suspect that, even if God Himself were to raise up another Stephen in our present day, he'd be stoned as a Christian heretic.
A lot of sincere and earnest Christians seem to be content to remain habitual ideologues and doctrinal parrots ... held captive to the teachings of religious ancestors from so long ago. While it's true that Ideologues can be exceedingly loyal and parrots can be excellent mimics, they're poor substitutes for seeking truth with an earnest listening ear.
It's refreshing to read that you're discovering and daring to peer beyond the restraints of traditional / denominational thinking.
To be perfectly honest, the single reason why I visit Forums such as these is to have two questions answered: One, "Has God Spoken?" and two "What did He say?"
When I bump into the mind-set that you have, I'm greatly encouraged.

God speaks to His church all the time.........It is the church who does not listen or disobeys. God speaks to prophets in this day and hour but it is man who refuse to listen or except that these men or women are prophets....Go figure...
God is always talking...........
Blessings
Jim
 
Loyal
Hi! 'Kirby D. P'
It seems to me that a good approach to the Biblical narrative of the Fall is to try and keep everything as human as possible. In other words, while reading, we should be asking ourselves: what would I have done in his or her situation; how would I have felt if this or that had happened to me. Not wishing to appear irreverent, I occasionally use this approach when I'm especially earnest to understand God's motives and actions. So, let's use it for this instance too regarding the the so-called probationary command not to eat of the fruit of that one tree in Eden.
I've frequently heard some accusingly say, "After all, God planted that tree there" ... putting the blame for Adam's disobedience on God, After all, God could just as easily have refrained from planting it, couldn't He?
We also have those Christians who are immersed in orthodox theology claiming that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was planted by God because He wanted to see whether newly created man was going to be obedient to Him or not! These seem to have forgotten that the Lord Jesus taught us to pray, "Lead us not into temptation". Nevertheless, there remain many who wrongly claim that God supposedly placed an enticing lure right before the inexperienced Adam and Eve as something of a test / temptation.
This makes me think of those suspicious people who secret a few coins here and there in the house just prior the arrival of the new housemaid. To find out if the maid was honest, you see! To put it mildly, I've always felt a lack of appreciation of this kind of behavior ... to put it mildly. I've also heard that some parents do the same thing with their children ... presuming to 'teach' them. But speaking as an earthly father, I expect good parents to have removed as far as possible any danger or temptation from the lives of their children.

The question we earthly parents must be daring enough to ask ourselves is: "Am I a better father than God?" ... I hardly expect so. Or could God's standards of parental conduct differ from mine, simply because He is the sovereign God? Again, I hardly expect so.

But if God did not plant that tree to put Adam and Eve to the test, why did He plant it?
The answer is that, rather than a probation and a test, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was a parable on the part of God which taught Adam and Eve the realities of the invisible heavenly world.
Eden had two trees, the Tree of Life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In the same way, the spiritual world had two realms; one which identified with the plan and purpose of God, (life), and the other identifying itself with the rebellion of Satan, (death).
Since the tree was not intended for probation and testing. the logical conclusion is that the threat of death as a result of eating its fruit was not meant as punishment but as a warning of the consequences.
Allow me explain by way of this illustration: I once lived above the 60th Parallel and it was not uncommon that the aboriginal parents would place a wood stove in the center of their one room cabins. When the stove was red hot, they would warn their child, "Do you see this stove that is so beautiful and red? You must not touch it, for when you do you'll burn yourself badly".
You can see the parallels: these parents did not put that stove in the room to test the child but simply because the reality of the season required it. If the child touched the stove and burned itself, the burning was no infliction of punishment but the inevitable consequence of the touching. So it was, when Adam and Eve lived in Eden, Satan had already rebelled in heaven and God arranged things in Eden in such a way that man had more than sufficient information and forewarning.

Not surprisingly, I've repeatedly stated my opinion in this Forum that God is only and perfectly good. God does not think in terms of testing, commandments, sin and punishment but only along lines of life, light, salvation and love. Is the light worried by the threat of darkness? Is light no more than the absence of darkness? In no way! Light can penetrate and conquer darkness, but who can shine a beam of darkness into a well-lit room? Light, so to speak, does not even know what darkness is, nor does life know the nature of death. "God is light and in Him is no darkness at all". (1John 1:5). Such is the true character and attributes of our heavenly father!
Let's now attempt to understand the situation in which Eve found herself in when the serpent told her his story:
In 1Timothy 2:14 it says: "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor". When we read carefully, this as a matter of fact was her defense when God called her to account.
Unfortunately, some Orthodox ideologues teach that, before Eve took the fruit, sin had already done its terrible work in her heart by causing her to desire to be like God. However, if this were the case with Eve, how could she say she was deceived? Simply because the serpent somehow suggested this desire to her? In that case she could have known better.
No, the deceit was much mere subtle and deadly than this.
When God created man He said He created him in his image and after his likeness. It is God's purpose that man should be a partner of God, worthy of his love. No doubt, God discussed this purpose with Adam. (to the extent the spiritual development of Adam permitted). Adam, in turn told Eve about it. In the garden of Eden, with its two special trees among the many others, they had a living story-book of God's purpose and intents for them.
We can assume therefore that Adam and Eve had a general and joyful expectation of 'being like God' at some stage in the future. In Eve, who had heard the story second-hand, this probably created a feeling that it could occur almost any time ... much the same as her belief that Cain was the man promised her by God after the Fall; Coincidentally, much the same in fact as many people nowadays expect the Lord's return 'at any time'.
The Adversary deceived Eve in the highest and most cherished aspiration she had: to be like God. Most likely, this is what caught her off guard; she failed to see through the subtle lie. After all, the fruit looked as if it might do what the serpent said it would. So, she took and ate. Eve wanted to give God a hand in reaching the high purpose. She sinned, not because she wanted the wrong thing but because she was tricked into choosing the wrong way. She never doubted what she did was right, so subtle was the deceit.

Instead of listening to the serpent, she should have gone to Adam and asked his advise, which he would have given her if he had been able; or they could have asked God to explain the matter. All this did not happen because Eve was 'honestly' deceived: she did not realize what she was doing.
Indeed, God never said her plea of deceit was invalid. He accepted it and immediately showed her a way to forgiveness and 'being like God': the way of the 'woman's seed'.
Eve's sin was a forgivable sin because it was the result of subtle deceit, not of wilful rebellion on her part. Although her desire was God's desire, her way was not God's way. Now the purpose could only be reached via Calvary, where the Second Adam was to fulfill the purpose of God without falling into subtle temptation. "Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor".

Adam was not deceived! Adam knew what he did. But before judging and condemning him, let us try to understand his position.
At this point, I'm taking the liberty of putting myself in Adam's place; I'm quite aware how far away this is from the routine theological theories concerning the event.
Let us assume (as I think we can) that Adam was not there when Eve took the fruit and ate. Let's presume he was sitting in the shade of the Tree of Life after completing some cultivating task in the garden. His wife had wandered off among the trees, and Adam is thinking of her: a gift of God, bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh; the woman he loves with a deep and tender affection. Wouldn't he gladly give everything he had for her? After a few minutes he sees her walking towards him from among the trees, her face shining with joy, a woman almost too beautiful to behold. Adam rises and approaches her. In her hand she has a beautiful fruit.,"Look Adam, I brought a fruit for you. This fruit will make us like God, as He promised you!". Adam took one look at the fruit, and he knew! Here, I'll end my little story, to ask you to stand in Adam's place.
What would you have done? There is the woman you love, your wife, the one with whom you share your most intimate life and thoughts. Unknowingly she has done something fatal, something irrevocable, and yours is the choice what to do. Would you have said: "Well, I'm sorry Eve, now you have gone and done something I won't have anything to do with. You better see for yourself how you manage to find your way out of this one?" Adam's love, his loyalty to his wife, caused him to take the fruit and eat. He could not leave her in her predicament; he had to share it with her, for otherwise he would lose her. Adam knew what he did was wrong, but his human love for the woman God gave him prevented him from considering a different course.
When he had eaten, Adam looked at Eve again, and at himself. "Come, Eve" he may have said, putting his arm around her shoulder, "Come with me".
From a figtree he took a bunch of leaves and strung them together. "Here, cover yourself", he said. She knew what he meant, for she, too, now understood what had happened. "Come with me among the shrubs", Adam said, "and let us wait for whatever is going to happen".
I put it to you that Adam sinned because he loved his wife so much, knowing full well what he did, In fact isn't that what he told God, and didn't God accept his defense'? "The woman whom Thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the fruit, and I ate". Adam's sin was a human sin of human loyalty, and therefore forgivable, even though it would take the death of the woman's seed to undo the results of his transgression.
Adam failed in that he did not run to God when he saw the terrible situation which Eve had put herself and him in. He should have asked God for a solution. But with the limited knowledge he had at the time of his Father in heaven, he decided to join Eve in her sin. Isn't there a typically human nobility about this act? Wilful, you may say. Yes, and noble too. A forgivable sin. Adam failed because he could not see how even God could come up with a plan which would save both Eve and himself, and still enable them to reach God's purpose of being like Him.
In New Testament terms, it could be said that Adam "served the creature rather than the Creator", (Rom 1:25), and this was his downfall and that of the race which would spring from him and the woman he loved. When God had told them the full consequences of their sin, Adam "called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living". And the Lord God, in a gesture of loving care and comforting foreshadowing of forgiveness "made for Adam and his wife garments of skins, and clothed them".

A few words must to be said about Genesis 3:12-13 where Adam and Eve explain to God how their sin came about. These words of Adam and Eve have almost universally been interpreted as attempts to put the blame on Eve and even on God in Adam's case, and on the serpent in Eve Is case. This is a false view of the situation. In a minimum of words the Bible records here the defense or the explanation Adam and Eve put forward to God. Especially Adam's words are revealing: "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the fruit of the tree, and I ate".
"Look, God", we can almost hear Adam say, "She is your gift to me; you took her out of me, and I love her. When she gave me the fruit she had already eaten of herself, what could I do but eat? How could I have done otherwise?"
There is no suggestion whatsoever in the Bible that God did not accept their defense. It seems to me that the words of Genesis 3:16-19 can be read as an acceptance of their plea, and at the same time of course as a detailed statement of the consequences of their sinful acts.
In one word, the consequence of their sin was: curse. Though he listened to the voice of his wife, Adam did not lose his position to her but to the one who was the instigator of her sin: Satan. Through his sin Adam, who was intended to be the head of God's creation, became the slave of Satan and his demons, who from that very moment onward began to wield their destructive authority over him, his wife, and the earth they lived in.

Was God being vindictive when He closed the way to the Tree of Life for Adam and Eve? After his gesture of forgiveness, wasn't it harsh of Him to drive them out of Eden? It was not.
The original way for Adam and Eve to attain the purpose, via the Tree of Life, had now become impossible. For Adam and Eve it would have been cruel torture if they had had to live 'for ever', (Gen 3:22). The way of the Tree of Life in the direct sense of Eden had to be closed, and the way of the second Adam took its place.

I hope that I've been of some help with explaining that the human story of sin and sickness, suffering and death is not the story of the punishment for sin inflicted by God on Adam and his descendants. It's the story of the consequences of leaving God and ending up in the sphere of influence of the Evil One. If we speak of the 'chastisement that made us whole', (which was upon Jesus), we do not see God as an angry Father who chastises, nor even as the just Judge who punishes .... but only as the loving Father who went all the way to save His children.

Our Lord Jesus is the Second Adam, the firstborn of a New Creation. A descendant of Adam, He is much more than just that! Because His entire existence started with a new act of creation by God when He sent the angel to Mary. By the power of the Word borne by Gabriel, Mary became the mother of Him, "Who would be great, and would be called the Son of the Most High".
Jesus, too, received from God a wife, a spiritual wife: the church. He, too, found Himself in the position of Adam, in that His 'wife' had committed sin. Yet here He proved to be greater than Adam, for He listened to the voice of God, even when that voice called Him to Calvary. Adam could not believe that God might have a solution for the predicament he found his wife in; Jesus was the embodiment of the love of God, and He opened the new and living way back to the throne of grace. The 'Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world' was the true second Adam, a Man who did not deem it below Himself to become the firstborn among many brethren.

Thus the Lord Jesus, as the true second Adam, received from God his wife, not flesh of His flesh, but spirit of His spirit. Without this wife, the church, the Lord would not be complete. In her He found a true and worthy object for His love. Yet, although He received her from the hand of God, He had to win her with His own blood, His own life. The first Adam received his wife from God, and lost her and himself to the control of Satan by listening to her voice instead of to God. Jesus first listened to God, first did God's will, and then called His wife and drew her with cords of divine love.

Because of his faithfulness to God and His love for His wife the earth, the whole of creation will be blessed for Jesus' sake. "For you shall go out in joy, and be led forth in peace; the mountains and the hills before you shall break forth into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. Instead of the thorn shall come up the cypress; instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle; and it shall be to the Lord for a memorial, for an everlasting sign which shall not be cut off",(Is 55:12-13).

Itz me I want to propose something to you. Look at the garden in another light. God did not kick out adam from the garden. Man oe adam Kicked God out of the garden. The day ther Light went out in the garden and Gods glory left was the day he ate of the apple and aloud sin into this land.
 
Member
Itz me I want to propose something to you. Look at the garden in another light. God did not kick out adam from the garden. Man oe adam Kicked God out of the garden. The day ther Light went out in the garden and Gods glory left was the day he ate of the apple and aloud sin into this land.

Hi! 'Wired 4 Fishen'
Ummm, with this Comment yer tempting me tuh temporarily give yuh a name change ... from "Wired 4 Fishen' to "Weird An' Flashen' ...:)
Genesis 3:23-24 (NIV)
"So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[a] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
:)
 
Loyal
Hi! 'Wired 4 Fishen'

Ummm, with this Comment yer tempting me tuh temporarily give yuh a name change ... from "Wired 4 Fishen' to "Weird An' Flashen' ...

Genesis 3:23-24 (NIV)

"So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[a] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.



Before you go getten to all worked up here............LOL
Before the fall - Adam was covered in Gods Glory
After the fall - Gods Glory was removed from adam
Before the fall - God would come down and walk with adam
After the fall - God could no longer do this

Yes man got new orders or in how he will live or dwell on this earth for the earth was now cursed
God could no longer visit this garden as He did for now there had been released sin into the land.
As I said another way of looking at this is God also got evicted from the garden as well.

Do you actually understand what the garden is ? Do you realise that we are to get this garden back or another words make our little part of this earth as the garden ? It is true and yet many Christians fail to actually live in a garden type area in their lives from limiting God and His word by claiming this is not for us and that was only for them then and man and his useless theological humanistic approach to learning Gods word. They trust their educated way of interpreting Gods written word and not allowing the Holy Spirit to give them true understanding knowledge.

Blessings
Jim
 
Member
Before you go getten to all worked up here............LOL
Before the fall - Adam was covered in Gods Glory
After the fall - Gods Glory was removed from adam
Before the fall - God would come down and walk with adam
After the fall - God could no longer do this

Yes man got new orders or in how he will live or dwell on this earth for the earth was now cursed
God could no longer visit this garden as He did for now there had been released sin into the land.
As I said another way of looking at this is God also got evicted from the garden as well.

Do you actually understand what the garden is ? Do you realise that we are to get this garden back or another words make our little part of this earth as the garden ? It is true and yet many Christians fail to actually live in a garden type area in their lives from limiting God and His word by claiming this is not for us and that was only for them then and man and his useless theological humanistic approach to learning Gods word. They trust their educated way of interpreting Gods written word and not allowing the Holy Spirit to give them true understanding knowledge.

Blessings
Jim
Hi! 'Wired 4 Fishen'
Ummm, Perhaps I should be warning you that only minutes ago my Comment to an entirely different Thread invited the following: "I'm sorry, but I guess I just don't see any way that this is not heresy".
At first glance reading, I became rather anxious. However, following a hurried Google Search for the word "heresy", I'm tempted to recognize the word as a fitting compliment :::: belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religion; opinion profoundly at odds with what is generally accepted :::: .
Anyways, 'W4F', you've been duly warned about associating with the likes of me.
Would you mind answering the questions which you posed with your Comment? Please tell me how you would answer the questions yourself. I'd be very interested to read them.
Thanks!
.
 
Loyal
Hi! 'Wired 4 Fishen'
Ummm, Perhaps I should be warning you that only minutes ago my Comment to an entirely different Thread invited the following: "I'm sorry, but I guess I just don't see any way that this is not heresy".
At first glance reading, I became rather anxious. However, following a hurried Google Search for the word "heresy", I'm tempted to recognize the word as a fitting compliment :::: belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religion; opinion profoundly at odds with what is generally accepted :::: .
Anyways, 'W4F', you've been duly warned about associating with the likes of me.
Would you mind answering the questions which you posed with your Comment? Please tell me how you would answer the questions yourself. I'd be very interested to read them.
Thanks!
.

What are you talking about ? Firt read through this I thought you werre saying I was attacking you then the second time i thought you were being funny because some one said somthng DUMB to you ( which by the way is slung in here like a slinky) and warning me to run from you. The third time i read it I found my self flipping a coin. lol

Jim
 
Loyal
Actually God probably is not sadistic enough to care if you devote your life worshiping him, and even if he did I doubt that he would send to a place where they are building a army against God. Not to mention the fact that religion is man made and and counterproductive to humanity.

Could you say this again in a more understanding way?
Thanks
 
Member
What are you talking about ? Firt read through this I thought you werre saying I was attacking you then the second time i thought you were being funny because some one said somthng DUMB to you ( which by the way is slung in here like a slinky) and warning me to run from you. The third time i read it I found my self flipping a coin. lol

Jim
Hi! 'Wired 4 Fishen'
Ummm, I waz jus' bean funny ... 'er at least, trying to be.
The honest truth is that I don't really give two hoots if someone might suspect me as a heretic ...I jus' gave it to you with intended humor.
The Internet is far too vast and Christian Forums far too many for anyone to be throwing themselves into a fit of misgivings over someone's opinion 'er whatever,
Actually, this is probably the longest time I've spent at this Christian Forum in many years. It's been nearly 4-5 months now that I've been visiting here nearly every day which is highly unusual behavior for me. Fact is: I retired from my computer business last November and I've been spinnin' wheels since ... tryin' this-an'-that to soften the monotony.
What yuh see about me in here is what yuh git. I jus' enjoy discussing the Gospel ... that's all. I have no agenda whatsoever. I don't particularly care what anyone chooses to believe or what denomination they might attach themselves too. No matter, it remains a joy to be talking about Jesus and about our portion in God's eternal plans and purposes.
Anyways, please feel free to answer the questions you were asking in your previous Comment ... I'd be interested in hear your own point of view because I haven't really thought much about the points your questions addressed.
 
Member

DHC

The idea that someone should be sent to hell for mere unbelief is ludicrous. As there is not the slightest bit of verifiable proof a deity does exist, to disbelieve is the default position, imo.
Hello Conifer.

Was reading the posts on this very difficult topic, 'the purpose of damnation as punishment'.

When I noticed your post, and in your post you made the following claim.

As there is not the slightest bit of verifiable proof a deity does exist, to disbelieve is the default position

Regarding your claim, the claim that unbelief is the default position concerning the existence of a deity. There is in fact, no
default position on this topic. To make the claim, that unbelief is the default position, you need to then justify with acceptable
evidence this claim of yours.

If you make a claim Conifer, then the onus is on you to support that claim, if you cannot support your claim. Then your claim will
simply default to just another opinion on the topic.
 
Active
Hello.

1. A friendly atheist here. (I promise, not trolling for a fight – just some thoughtful Christian perspective.)

My wife and I have two kids. We punish them as part of their upbringing (nothing physical). As far as I can figure, there are only two reasons (and they are admittedly related) why we do:

1. Negative conditioning to correct a misbehavior so that misbehavior acquires bad associations, hence reducing the appeal of repeating that misbehavior in the future.

2. The threat of punishment as a means of deterrence from any particular misbehavior, whether or not this misbehavior has ever been exhibited.

When either of my children misbehave in some way that has wronged a third party, my wife and I see to it that they make amends. However, we do not teach that this is part of their “punishment,” but, instead, a responsibility they bear for the consequences of their misbehavior. An understanding we hope they internalize and carry with them into adulthood.

The “punishment” aspect to their upbringing, then, is simply a training method. When they reach adulthood, and become subject to full responsibility for all their actions and decisions, my wife and I have no intention of “punishing” them from that point onward.

I have read and heard Christian thinkers explain that divine punishment for the unrepentant sinner is akin to a loving parent punishing a wayward child. In that vein, I don’t understand how damnation (whether it be consignment to a literal Hell, with eternal torment we would physically equate to torture, or simply eternal expulsion from God’s presence) parallels either reason why I, as a parent, punish my children. Obviously, the purpose of reason #1 (aversion through conditioning) does not apply because one does not have a second chance to accept Christ once damnation has been sentenced. #2 (deterrence) may be a closer analog, except when I punish my children, even if it is to follow through on a threat that was originally intended as pure deterrence, it is still designed to guide future behavior. And, as I have said, once my children are capable of (and obligated to) their own personal responsibility, my interest in (and the efficacy of) deterrent punishment is useless.

Hence, what is the efficacy of damnation purely as a deterrence? If it fails to deter any single individual from refusing acceptance of Christ prior to Judgement, it can never be applied to that person again.

Finally, the notion of damnation-as-justice doesn’t seem to apply either. As I said, when my wife and I mete out justice to our children, it is so they can make reparations for whatever “crime” or “infraction” they commit. But once that “debt to society” is paid, our children earn full reinstatement in whatever rights to which they (such as a six- and a nine-year-old) are entitled. Justice is a restoration to a peaceful, egalitarian order.

So (thanks if you’ve read this far), where is my disconnect? Is the analogy between parental love and God’s love for His Creation just not a very good one? Or are my motives in, and criteria for, using punishment to discipline my children confused?


2. PS – For those of you who believe that damnation is not literal torment in a lake of fire, but simply eternal separation from the Grace and glory of God, what is your understanding of how that separation is different (i.e.: worse) than physical life on earth?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.
Hi there

1. We cannot look at it as though we are children of God. Humans are a creation. We only become adopted children when we accept adoption by Jesus Rev 3:20, Eph 1:5.

All is not bad though. As God loves all of His creation (even the devil!). What many battle to grasp is that God is 1. highly intelligent and 2. there is NO darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5. God tells us, His children to love our enemies Matt 5:44 because He loves His. God is not a hypocrite.

What this all translates into is that anyone espousing an unfair or torturous hell have scripture and God's nature flying over their heads.

I challenge anyone to quote a scripture that they think is evidence of God torturing someone. Torture is evil. God is not evil.

At this very moment in time God is trying His best to reach out to all of us. Everyone who is still alive has hope. God doesn't discipline those who are not His children. He is trying to reach you first, take you in and then look after you.

2. At this moment life is good on earth because of God's hand on it. God doesn't have to literally have a seat in our parliament to have an affect on what happens on earth. In the OT God would constantly look for those after His heart (hate sin and cling to what is good Rom 12:9). He would find them, protect them and make them leaders / shining lights among all. I guess its the same thing NT. Those that follow Him are like salt on the earth. Remove that and you will have the evil ruling. When the evil rule, Earth is filled with 'overwhelming' sin and hatred. God never tolerates a place unfit for kids or His children to grow up in. Evidence is Noah, Sodom and Matt 24:22.

What happens at the end of the day is simply a case of God separating wolves / goats and lambs Matt 25:32. This needs to sink in. The reason people go to hell is because they love what is evil > hating it John 3:19. Note how John 3:19 starts with ''this is the verdict''.

If you hate what is evil and desire to cling to what is good Rom 12:9, you are drawing near to God, you desire to apologize / repent of your evil sins....God then draws near to you James 4:8 and to those living in the NT after the cross, He reveals Jesus as Lord to them 1 Cor 12:3.

So, no good people will go to hell. People go where they choose to. Most simply don't want to be honest with themselves and face the reality of their choice. Love evil = don't repent. Hate evil = repent. Repent sincerely Jer 17:10 = find Jesus / Jesus comes in Rev 3:20.
 
Active
1. The idea that someone should be sent to hell for mere unbelief is ludicrous. 2. As there is not the slightest bit of verifiable proof a deity does exist, to disbelieve is the default position, imo.
1. Agree 100%. To suggest someone goes to hell for merely not believing X when they supposed to believe Y. IS a joke. NO way around that.

But lets' move on a tad and understand that that is not what Christianity teaches.

Jesus says ''I am the way the truth and the life'' because He knows that God WILL reveal Himself to all those who are after His heart. Rom 12:9 / James 1:27 leads to James 4:8, leads to God doing Jer 17:10, which leads to 1 Cor 12:3 / Rev 3:20 summarizes this all. We need to look at it in reverse. Someone who does not know Jesus has not sincerely repented. Does not truly hate what is evil.

2. There is no God? It should not be hard to convince yourself that that brain you using to deduce this, mouth to say it and hands to type it are not from anything in this realm limited by the laws of physics. Believing there is a God is the default belief.

But the discussion of God's existence is a red herring to the real issue. Answering for your sins and your desire for them > hatred for them.

Paul made it clear in Rom 7:15 that 1. He still sins but more importantly 2. He HATES it. Love is genuine when we HATE what is evil and CLING to what is good Rom 12:9.
 
Active
I understand (and agree) that some parents' love is imperfect and transient, whereas God's love is supposed to be perfect and everlasting. Why are we taught that He does not rescue people from Hell? Certainly, if Hell is what it is supposed to be, many people quickly regret having chosen to go there. If my own children (for whom my love is as close to perfect as anything I can ever aspire to) were to plunge into a lifestyle of drug addiction, or join a destructive religious cult, or be sent to jail for any sort of crime, DESPITE my warnings and against my will; the instant they asked me to, I would do anything and everything in my power to rescue them. Why are we taught that God doesn't treat damned sinners similarly? Or is He impotent to retrieve souls from Hell once they have been judged?
God doesn't send someone to hell unless all hope is lost. Scripture says the devil has been sinning from the beginning. If he had been sinning and repenting I doubt he would have been removed. God doesn't make mistakes. Those that go to hell will never from their side want to serve God.

The fact that there is an eternal home for those that HATE God speaks of His love for them. He has decided to tolerate them in His universe for all eternity.

God is good = Christianity 101. Christians give thanks because God is good Psalm 136:1.
 
Active
Hi, ITZ ME.

You’ve zeroed in on my dilemma. I find God’s nature curious BECAUSE I would never visit evil upon my children and I see a great deal of evil in the world and have (until now) been taught that God is responsible for everything, bar none.

1. If I take you correctly, Adam and Eve created (or at least “introduced”) evil in the world through their transgression in the Garden of Eden. And prior to this God had nothing to do with it nor had He anticipated it. In light of the grave impact of evil upon creation ever since, that apparent shortsightedness conflicts with notions of God’s perfection. He may not have comprehended evil before the eating of the fruit, but if not then he is (or was) certainly not omniscient.

Moreover, Adam and Eve’s birthing of evil in the world can only have been an innocent crime. I know this is not a new argument, but (obviously) they had no knowledge of the distinction between good and evil prior to the crime of unlawfully acquiring that knowledge.

2. But the scriptures are unequivocal about God’s capacity and historic readiness to punish sin; the Expulsion, the Noaic flood and destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah being the cornerstones of the Old Testament penal code.

3. But more than this, at least in the strict context of literal scripture, even if God did not “know” evil before Adam and Eve, he certainly has no compunction about dealing in evil and with Satan by the time of the Patriarchs. Just before he loses his gamble with Satan, God boasts that Job still cleaves to faith, “…though you [Satan] incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.” (Job 2:3) The scriptures have no problem calling a spade a spade after Satan wins his bet when they describe how Job’s surviving kinsmen (few though they must have been by this point) gathered and, “comforted him over all the EVIL that the LORD had brought upon him.” (Job 42:11, KJV) (emphasis added)

I know other translations use words like “trials,” “adversities,” etc., etc. Let’s set aside Job’s individual person for the moment. These “adversities” include the unprovoked slaying of all of Job’s children and all his household staff, save the few messengers who survived to bring Job the bad news. God Himself acknowledges that he conducted these tragedies “without cause.”

4. In order to not call this “evil” (when at least some translations of the Bible do), I would have to totally revise my understanding of what evil is. If you suggest that it isn’t evil because it is God’s handiwork and God cannot cause evil, naturally I’ll counter that God is supposed to be the initial cause of everything, hence: evil inclusive… and we’ll just be talking past each other.

As to the “wages” metaphor suggested in the verses from Romans and Hebrews you quote, within the metaphor, there is still a master who pays the wages; though the laborer may be entitled to them, the master is not an unmotivated automaton. Stepping outside the metaphor, in Hebrews, the verse goes on to elaborate that, “Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control.” (Heb 2:8) There is some logic to the notion that the wages of sin are paid by he whom the commission of sin benefits, ostensibly Satan; but even Satan’s function is subsumed under the umbrella of God’s order.

5. Finally, the Romans 6 verse leads to one of the reasons why, if I ever DO come to believe that God exists, I’ll still have a major problem. Because Rom 6:22 explains how the faithful are SLAVES to God and, so, in Rom 6:23 we “earn”(?) the wages of God’s “free gift”(?!!) of eternal life.

Slaves, by definition, don’t work for wages. And a “free gift” that must be earned through abject servitude is in no wise “free.”

We’re getting a bit beyond my original hope to get a better understanding of God’s use of and purposes in punishment. But these do go to the apparent inconsistencies within all the Abrahamic faiths.

I am definitely not trying to ascribe to God any false attributes. But I do keep running into these inconsistencies which, to me, suggest that no human does (or maybe even can) comprehend His attributes accurately. If He exists at all.
1. God is omniscient. He knew Adam would fall. For an intelligent creation created just beneath the angels....a fall is inevitable. Accountability goes with the creation we are. God knew what He was doing when He put the devil on earth.

2. No. God is patient, longsuffering and relents from sending calamity Jonah 4:2.

3. Yes, God uses the devil. He uses many evil people too. But we have to grasp how. The devil roams looking for whom he can devour. If you are not devoured, you are protected by God. He tempted Adam and Eve, he did not devour Adam and Eve. He did not torture Adam and Eve.

4. God does'nt have to be guilty of evil just because evil exists. In fact it is the complete opposite!!!! It is exceedingly good of Him to allow evil to exist among his intelligent creation. It shows He is giving us free will. Free will is good. Not evil. Torturing your creation for being evil, is evil.

5. Slave in a heaven where God says the ''greatest is the least'' and ''the humblest is the greatest''. Slaves in a heaven where our master laid His life down for us like a lamb to the slaughter. NOT just a case of ''oh I died to a bullet''. These little red ants biting at his feet, He gave them full control over His life, to do with as they please. He lowered Himself to their level. People will worship God for eternity because He actually is very good and actually does really deserve worship. We worship because we want to. In heaven when we grasp how good He is. We will all want to. Not because ''He demands it''. We are talking about heaven, not hell. Dictators will be in hell ;).
 
Loyal
God never sends a single person to hell. Point Blank
People make that choice on their own.
There is one way and only one way a person will end up in hell and that is rejecting Jesus or another words not becoming born again by making Christ Lord of your life. The most evilest person on this earth will be in heaven if he repented and asked Jesus into his heart even if it was 1 second before he died.

@KingJ God does not love the devil.... God hates evil and sin. God does not use the devil or evil to teach any of His children ( that we be us ) .
God Bless
Jim
 
Active

RJ

God never sends a single person to hell. Point Blank
People make that choice on their own.
There is one way and only one way a person will end up in hell and that is rejecting Jesus or another words not becoming born again by making Christ Lord of your life. The most evilest person on this earth will be in heaven if he repented and asked Jesus into his heart even if it was 1 second before he died.

@KingJ God does not love the devil.... God hates evil and sin. God does not use the devil or evil to teach any of His children ( that we be us ) .
God Bless
Jim
God is truth and does not lie. The devil himself could be brought to reconciliation and be saved, but prophecy says that won't happen!
 
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