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The preachers getting rich from poor Americans

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Loyal
The topic is drifting in and out of riches, prosperity, luxuries and pastors/ministries with large net worth, they get large salaries and sit on the donations provided by viewers, it is the latter we are focusing on.

They preach the blessings of giving, but do not practice what they preach.

They have massive worth (in earthly monetary value) yet still ask for more and more giving.

Now let me think, in our Lord's own words we have

Matthew 6:19-21 (NKJV)
19 "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal;
20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.
21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Like so many ministers, I use the word minister to cover all clergy no matter what denomination. Like so many ministers, they are educated, they are good speakers, they know how to talk the talk. They certainly know how to appeal for money!
Greetings,
You accused but have no proof.
You speak and yet have no understanding.
You use scripture and apply in ignorance of the True Facts.

The title is a joke brother.
The partners and members are not poor nor do they supply all the funds or material things.

How about finding out the real truth and stop agreeing with the worldly views.

Where do all the funds come from?
Where do they go?
What business men have Ben lead to give out of their multi billion dollar business es and continue to grow?

How much do these ministries put back into the kingdom of God and how many people have they turned their lives around?

Can you honestly answer any of these?

Blessings
 
Moderator
Staff Member
He will at that Nick...but consider too...Satan WILL use scripture to deceive you as well.
Exactly the point my brother. Best for each of us to discern the right/wrong of something in prayer and study. Seeking Holy Spirit guidance.

Yet, let us not bash each other over head, even if we are in disagreement. Let us take special care with the words we use in these situations. For we are Brothers & Sisters in Christ Jesus.
The Adversary just loves it when we do become combative with little to no seeking of what is true. And yes that includes when we seek to inform others of something that we feel that others need to know.

In this thread. I believe Brother Paul has not been adversarial in his presentation, or hurtful in communicating this controversial subject. Understanding that we can't always control how someone is to receive something we present. We can only try our best, and I believe he has.

With the Love of Christ Jesus Brother.
YBIC
Nick
<><
 
Loyal
Exactly the point my brother. Best for each of us to discern the right/wrong of something in prayer and study. Seeking Holy Spirit guidance.

Yet, let us not bash each other over head, even if we are in disagreement. Let us take special care with the words we use in these situations. For we are Brothers & Sisters in Christ Jesus.
The Adversary just loves it when we do become combative with little to no seeking of what is true. And yes that includes when we seek to inform others of something that we feel that others need to know.

In this thread. I believe Brother Paul has not been adversarial in his presentation, or hurtful in communicating this controversial subject. Understanding that we can't always control how someone is to receive something we present. We can only try our best, and I believe he has.

With the Love of Christ Jesus Brother.
YBIC
Nick
<><
I agree Nick...Paul has been a perfect gentleman from the start....Personally I like him. Even so... I'm not sure how he comes into our conversation of how Satan deceives us.
 
Moderator
Staff Member
I agree Nick...Paul has been a perfect gentleman from the start....Personally I like him. Even so... I'm not sure how he comes into our conversation of how Satan deceives us.
As do I brother. Our Brother Paul has been able to stay calm even with some rather unkind words being sent his way. Not always easy.
Now where does the Adversary come into this. It really comes from discernment and what it is we are seeking to know the truth of. Is it from God and if it is not, I can't help but believe that the Adversary has some involvement.
 
Loyal
As do I brother. Our Brother Paul has been able to stay calm even with some rather unkind words being sent his way. Not always easy.
Now where does the Adversary come into this. It really comes from discernment and what it is we are seeking to know the truth of. Is it from God and if it is not, I can't help but believe that the Adversary has some involvement.
He's called the Twister, or the Deceiver...You say something, he twists it and I hear something you did not say. Or vicey versy.
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal
Matthew 6:19

For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Matthew 6:21


Greetings @Bendito

With regard to the American preacher called Copeland

He preaches a false gospel brother as well as being rich from his poor followers.

Here are some of his quotes that you can look up and source for yourself.


It wasn't the physical death on the that paid the price for sin..anybody could do that

Every prophet that walked the face of the earth under the Abrahamic covenant could have paid the price if it were a physical death only” “When he said ‘It is finished’ on that cross, he was not speaking of the plan of redemption. The plan of redemption had just begun, there were still three days and three nights to be gone through.” “[Jesus] accepted the sin nature of Satan in His own Spirit, and at the moment that He did so, He cried ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’.” “He [Jesus] was down in that pit and there he suffered the punishment for three horrible days and nights for Adam’s treason... There is a new birth takes place in the very depths of the earth, when the command of God says ‘That’s enough, loose him and let him go’

God spoke Adam into existence in authority with words. These words struck Adam's body in the face. His body and God were exactly the same size."

Adam] was the copy, looked just like [God]. If you stood Adam upside God, they look exactly alike. If you stood Jesus and Adam side by side, they would look and sound exactly alike.


Adam was made in the image of God. He was as much female as he was male. He was exactly like God. Then God separated him and removed the female part. Woman means 'man with the womb.' Eve had as much authority as Adam did as long as they stayed together.
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Greetings @Brother-Paul

I apologise for being the one who turned your thread off track.
However, my intention was to indicate that as well as "getting rich" in questionable ways these prosperity preachers often minister a false gospel message too.

Brother @Bendito
You should perhaps copy your last post and start a fresh thread if ypu would like a full conversation on the subject you are discussing with @Christ4Ever
 
Loyal
Greetings @Brother-Paul

I apologise for being the one who turned your thread off track.
However, my intention was to indicate that as well as "getting rich" in questionable ways these prosperity preachers often minister a false gospel message too.

Brother @Bendito
You should perhaps copy your last post and start a fresh thread if ypu would like a full conversation on the subject you are discussing with @Christ4Ever
I'll do that Sister.
 
Loyal
As do I brother. Our Brother Paul has been able to stay calm even with some rather unkind words being sent his way. Not always easy.
Now where does the Adversary come into this. It really comes from discernment and what it is we are seeking to know the truth of. Is it from God and if it is not, I can't help but believe that the Adversary has some involvement.
I have only two words for you guys
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Bless you

:smile:
 
Loyal
So, both were needed brother. Which is not what he did with the words he used of ".....anybody could do that". Our Lord was without Sin in both Body & Spirit. That's where the almost right comes in.

Now we need to apologize to Brother Paul, for we have diverted his thread once again!! Apologies @Brother-Paul

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><
As I said I have only two words for you guys
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.
.
Bless you
:smile:
 
Loyal
Greetings @Brother-Paul

I apologise for being the one who turned your thread off track.
However, my intention was to indicate that as well as "getting rich" in questionable ways these prosperity preachers often minister a false gospel message too.

Brother @Bendito
You should perhaps copy your last post and start a fresh thread if ypu would like a full conversation on the subject you are discussing with @Christ4Ever
Bless you too sister, no need to apologise, peace be with you, and all members at TJ, and all members of the Body of Christ.
:smile:


For me the issue is that the pastors mentioned are sat on 'massive' sums of money and they are asking for more!

Alright we can say, as has been said, a business needs money to invest, but they are not a business!

We can say similar regarding money with the Catholic church and the Anglican / Protestant church etc (Church by denominational names not One True Church with Saved souls)

Ministers used to do the work they did for the Love of God, salaries were secondary, pensions were not thought of, they did it for the Love of God and looking after the flock for the Lord. How many would back off now if the salary wasn't suitable and there were no perks or pension scheme. Exodus comes to mind.

Look back at Acts, at the early church, nothing like today in so many ways. But many say, this is the 21st Century, we do things differently, but they say we are a Gospel believing church! They may preach the Gospel, or parts of it, some with liberal minds, but the statement confirms it all, 'we do things differently today', look back at Acts and church history I say. Don't stop at the Gospels, follow with Acts, Roman, the Epistles and church history.

Money is not evil, but we so often find evil in money, for those that have it is like a magnet, they want more, they don't want to part with in.

People gave in answer to their pleas, thinking they will be blessed, Bible based messages of giving were preached in most cases, but the giving was for the ministry pot, some as we read ran into hardship, but when they asked the ministry to provide for them in their times of need, they were told we cannot give to you or we would have to give to everyone who asks. It certainly comes over as not a prayer, not a care. Yet the pastors live in luxury.

Matthew 25:42-46 (NKJV)
42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’
45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

We will all have to answer for what we have done, said, thought and even prayed in this life. We are not judging, the Lord will do that, we are just pointing out the massive amounts of money they sit on, they live in luxury whilst others struggle to manage, they have the gifts of love from those who listened to them preach, but don't help the flock, the flock they preach to, the flock that gave, in their time on need.
 
Loyal
I have just been reading the following scripture about wealth and thought it worth sharing...

Luke 16:14-31 (NKJV)
The Law, the Prophets, and the Kingdom

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.
15 And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
16 “The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.
18 “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.

The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’
25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’
29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’
30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’
31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”

The Wrong Use of Money (Luke 16:14-31)

Jesus had been speaking primarily to His disciples, but the Pharisees had been listening, and their response was anything but spiritual. They sneered at Him! (The Greek word means "to turn up one's nose.") In spite of their strict religious practices, they loved money and cultivated values that were godless. They professed to trust God, but they measured life by wealth and possessions, the same as the unbelieving worldly crowd. Far too many professed Christians today are making the same mistake. With their lips, they honor the Lord; but with their wealth, they live like the world.

The Pharisees needed to stop "drifting" with the crowd and start "pressing into the kingdom" as many others were doing. The Pharisees had rejected the ministry of John the Baptist and permitted him to be killed, even though they knew he was God's prophet. They were also rejecting the ministry of Jesus Christ and would ultimately ask Pilate to have Him crucified. When your life is controlled by the love of money, you open the door to every kind of sin.

The Law and the Prophets were "until John," for John introduced the Saviour to the nation and announced the arrival of the kingdom. But that did not mean that the Law was discredited or destroyed, for in Jesus Christ, the Law has been fulfilled (Matt. 5:17-20). The Pharisees prided themselves in their faithful obedience to the Law of Moses, but they did not receive the Saviour of whom Moses wrote!

Why did Jesus talk about divorce and remarriage when His basic discussion was about covetousness? The scribes and Pharisees were divided on this question, and perhaps they wanted to provoke Jesus into an argument, but He thwarted their plans. (In most marriages and divorces, money is involved, so the topic was not completely foreign to the discussion.) Some of the Jews were very lax in their views of divorce and remarriage, while others were very strict. Jesus had spoken about this subject before, so it was not a new teaching (Matt. 5:31-32).

Having silenced the sneering Pharisees, Jesus then gave them a vivid description of what would happen to them if they continued in their covetousness and unbelief. The account focuses on an anonymous rich man and a beggar named Lazarus ("God is my help"), and it warns us against covetousness by presenting several contrasts.

A contrast in life (vv. 19-21). This man was indeed rich if he could afford daily to wear expensive clothes and host splendid feasts. The one word that best describes his lifestyle is "flamboyant." He was definitely among "the rich and famous," and other people admired and envied him.

Why is one man wealthy and another man poor? Had the Jewish people obeyed God's commandments concerning the Sabbatical Year and the Year of Jubilee, there would have been little or no poverty in the land, for the wealth and real estate could not have fallen into the hands of a few wealthy people (see Lev. 25, and note Ex. 23:11; Deut. 14:28-29). The Old Testament prophets denounced the rich for amassing great estates and exploiting the widows and the poor (Isa. 3:15; 10:2; Amos 2:6; 4:1; 5:11-12; 8:4-6; Hab. 2:9-13). In Jesus' day, Palestine was under the rule of Rome, and life was very difficult for the common people.

Lazarus was sick and possibly crippled, because he was "laid" at the rich man's gate daily (see Acts 3:1-2). The only attention he got was from the dogs! The rich man could easily have assisted Lazarus, but he ignored him and went on enjoying his recognition and his riches. Life was comfortable for him and he felt secure.

The rich man obviously had no concept of stewardship, or he would have used part of his wealth to help Lazarus. It is a mystery why he even allowed the beggar to camp at his front door. Perhaps he thought that providing a place for the man was ministry enough, and it may be that some of his wealthy guests occasionally gave Lazarus alms. Did any of them ever recall what the Old Testament had to say about the care of the poor, such as Proverbs 14:21; 19:17; 21:13; or 28:27?

A contrast in death (v. 22). "The rich and poor meet together; the Lord is the Maker of them all" (Prov. 22:2). As John Donne said, death is the "great leveler." The rich man died in spite of his wealth (Ps. 49:6-9) and "was buried," no doubt with an expensive funeral. But when Lazarus died, he was carried to Abraham's bosom. What a difference! Perhaps the beggar's body did not even have a decent burial, though the Jews were usually compassionate in such cases. Lazarus certainly did not have the traditional Jewish funeral, with its paid mourners, costly spices, and elaborate tomb. After Lazarus' body was taken away, the neighbors probably said, "Well, we're glad he's not around anymore!"

Death takes place when the spirit leaves the body (James 2:26). But death is not the end; it is the beginning of a whole new existence in another world. For the Christian, death means to be present with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:1-8; Phil. 1:21). For the unbeliever, death means to be away from God's presence and in torment.

A contrast in eternity (vv. 23-31). The King James Version uses the word hell in Luke 16:23, but the Greek word is not "hell" but "hades." It is the temporary realm of the dead as they await the judgment. The permanent place of punishment for the lost is "hell," the lake of fire. One day, death will give up the bodies and hades will give up the souls (Rev. 20:13, where "hell" should be "hades"), and the lost will stand before Christ in judgment (Rev. 20:10-15).

From our Lord's description, we learn that hades had two sections: a paradise portion called "Abraham's bosom," and a punishment portion. It is believed by many theologians that our Lord emptied the paradise part of hades when He arose from the dead and returned to the Father (John 20:17; Eph. 4:8-10). We know that today "paradise" is in heaven, where Jesus reigns in glory (Luke 23:43; 2 Cor. 12:1-4). There is no indication in Scripture that souls in heaven can communicate with people in hades or with people on earth.

This narrative refutes so-called "soul sleep," for both the rich man and Lazarus were conscious, one enjoying comfort and the other suffering torment. It is a solemn thing to ponder one's eternal destiny and realize the reality of divine punishment.

C.S. Lewis was told about a gravestone inscription that read: "Here lies an atheist—all dressed up and no place to go." Lewis quietly replied, "I bet he wishes that were so!"

The interesting thing is that, in hades, the rich man began to pray! First, he prayed for himself, that Abraham would have mercy on him and allow Lazarus to bring him some comfort (Luke 16:23-26). Even a drop of cool water would be welcomed. What a change from his sumptuous feasts when slaves ran to do his bidding!

The word torment is used four times in this account, and it speaks of definite pain. This is the same word that is used for the doom feared by the evil spirits (Mark 5:7) and the judgments God will send on an unrepentant world (Rev. 9:5; 11:10; 20:10). If hell is the permanent prison of the damned, then hades is the temporary jail, and the suffering in both is very real.

People ask, "How can a loving God even permit such a place as hell to exist, let alone send people there?" But in asking that question, they reveal that they do not understand either the love of God or the wickedness of sin. God's love is a holy love ("God is light," 1 John 1:5), not a shallow sentiment, and sin is rebellion against a holy and loving God. God does not "send people to hell." They send themselves there by refusing to heed His call and believe on His Son. The "unbelieving" are named second on the list of the people who go to hell, even before the murderers and the liars (Rev. 21:8; also see John 3:18-21, 36).

Abraham gave two reasons why Lazarus could not bring the comfort that was requested: the character of the rich man and the character of the eternal state. The rich man had lived for the "good things" of earth, and had experienced abundant temporal blessings. He had his reward (Matt. 6:2, 5, 16). He had determined his own destiny by leaving God out of his life, and now neither his character nor his destiny could be changed. Lazarus could not leave his place of comfort and make even a brief visit to the place of torment.

Then the rich man prayed for his brothers (Luke 16:27-31). He did not say, "I'm glad my brothers will also come here. We'll have a wonderful time together!" Occasionally you hear a lost person say, "Well, I don't mind if I go to hell. I'll have a lot of company!" But there is no friendship or "company" in hell! Hell is a place of torment and loneliness. It is not an eternal New Year's Eve party at which sinners have a good time doing what they used to do on earth.

Luke 16:28 suggests that Lazarus had testified to the rich man and probably to his brothers, but none of them had taken his witness seriously. But now, Lazarus' testimony is very important! The brothers knew that Lazarus had died, so if the beggar appeared to them, they would be frightened and would listen to his witness. People in hades have a concern for the lost, but they cannot do anything about it.

Abraham explained that only one thing could prevent the five men from eventually joining their brother: they needed to hear the Word of God and respond to it by faith. Moses and the Prophets tell sinners how to repent and be saved, and the Jews heard them read every Sabbath in the synagogue. Though miracles can attest to the authority of the preacher, they cannot produce either conviction or conversion in the hearts of the lost. Faith that is based solely on miracles is not saving faith (John 2:23-25). A man named Lazarus did come back from the dead, and some of the people wanted to kill him! (see John 11:43-57; 12:10) Those who claim that there can be no effective evangelism without "signs and wonders" need to ponder this passage and also John 10:41-42.

In the rich man's lifetime, God had spoken to him in many ways. God had permitted him to have riches, yet he did not repent (Rom. 2:4-5). Lazarus had witnessed to the rich man, and so had the Old Testament Scriptures that were familiar to the Jews, but his heart remained unbelieving. The fact that Lazarus died first was a strong witness to the rich man, a reminder that one day he would also die, but even a death at his very doorstep did not melt the man's heart.

In spite of the fact that he was in torment in hades, the rich man did not change; he was still self-centered. He prayed, but it was for his comfort and the safety of his family. He was not concerned about other lost sinners; his only concern was his five brothers. He argued with God instead of submitting to His will. This indicates that the punishment of lost sinners is not remedial; it does not improve them. Hades and hell are not hospitals for the sick; they are prisons for the condemned.

Dr. Luke does not tell us how the covetous Pharisees responded to this account. They certainly knew Moses and the Prophets, and this meant even greater responsibility—and greater condemnation (John 12:35-41).

We must remind ourselves that the rich man was not condemned because he was rich, nor was Lazarus saved because he was poor. Abraham was a very wealthy man, yet he was not in torment in hades. The rich man trusted in his riches and did not trust in the Lord.

"The safest road to hell," wrote C.S. Lewis, "is the gradual one—the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts."

"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" (Mark 8:36)

Jesus asked that question.

What is your answer?

Bible Exposition Commentary - Bible Exposition Commentary – Be Courageous (Luke 14-24).
 
Loyal
Topics are best kept to the subject, but at times we can all drift from the topic.

If you feel you have more to discuss that is not on topic starting a new thread would possibly be the best option, would you agree. Just trying to be a gentleman after the kind comments earlier, that said a humble kind gentleman brother.
:grin:
 
Active
.Where does the bible say that being rich, living lavishly is sin?
When it tells us to work out our salvation in fear and trembling Phil 2:12.

It is near impossible for a rich person living lavishly to pass their own truthful self judgment 1 Cor 11:31. I am sure many don't judge themselves truthfully.

Example: Can you prove you will not be boastful? Living lavishly is buying a Ferrari when a Toyota works just as well. What if you attend a church where most drive only Toyota's. Would you not give thought to stumbling others Matt 18:6? Would you not feel odd if you had to stand up and preach on ''putting the flesh under'' 1 Cor 9:27? What if you drove past an orphanage or widows in need James 1:27? Would you justify your Ferrari by saying ''well I give them $2 000 a month''? Would you not feel convicted by the fact that the price difference between your Ferrari and a Toyota could...have.....gone...to other orphanages?

As long as there are hungry children you ought to be ashamed of lavish living. You are a bad Christian. You need to read up on Mother Theresa. Or heck, go visit an orphanage. Take your Christianity away from cushy seats at church and into the actual mission fields. Go watch a video of kids in Africa dying from food starvation.

I am not insinuating you not drive a reliable new car, stay in a nice house and have a good pension plan. But just be modest. Christianity 101 is modesty. There is absolutely no way around that. You will fail every test on your knees before God.

Do you know that God ''HATES'' a proud look? Prov 6:16-19. A Ferrari will not give you a proud look?
 
Loyal
As we all already know the scriptures foretold of the days in which we are now living.

2Pe 2:1 But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves.
2Pe 2:2 Many will follow their evil teaching and shameful immorality. And because of these teachers, the way of truth will be slandered.
2Pe 2:3 In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed. (NLT)

The King James version for verse 3 says.....

2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. (KJV)

"Merchandise" is a product you find on the shelf's in stores in which the owner makes a "profit" There are many Churches today whose leaders do NOT see the congregation as sheep, but as merchandise as a means to get money!!
This is just another reason why the way of righteousness is slandered!!!
 

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