"It wasn't the physical death on the that paid the price for sin..anybody could do that"

[Bendito]

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal
Matthew 6:19

For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Matthew 6:21


Greetings @Bendito

With regard to the American preacher called Copeland

He preaches a false gospel brother as well as being rich from his poor followers.

Here are some of his quotes that you can look up and source for yourself.

It wasn't the physical death on the that paid the price for sin..anybody could do that

Every prophet that walked the face of the earth under the Abrahamic covenant could have paid the price if it were a physical death only” “When he said ‘It is finished’ on that cross, he was not speaking of the plan of redemption. The plan of redemption had just begun, there were still three days and three nights to be gone through.” “[Jesus] accepted the sin nature of Satan in His own Spirit, and at the moment that He did so, He cried ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’.” “He [Jesus] was down in that pit and there he suffered the punishment for three horrible days and nights for Adam’s treason... There is a new birth takes place in the very depths of the earth, when the command of God says ‘That’s enough, loose him and let him go’

God spoke Adam into existence in authority with words. These words struck Adam's body in the face. His body and God were exactly the same size."

Adam] was the copy, looked just like [God]. If you stood Adam upside God, they look exactly alike. If you stood Jesus and Adam side by side, they would look and sound exactly alike.

Adam was made in the image of God. He was as much female as he was male. He was exactly like God. Then God separated him and removed the female part. Woman means 'man with the womb.' Eve had as much authority as Adam did as long as they stayed together.

Which quote are you having a problem with? What he said was true.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Which quote are you having a problem with? What he said was true.

It wasn't the physical death on the that paid the price for sin..anybody could do that

Dear Brother,
Your quote then his.

Do you believe what he said here to be true? Keeping in mind that without the shedding of blood there cannot be any remission of sins. You might want...or I should say that he might want to read/reread Hebrews 9

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Bendito]

Dear Brother,
Your quote then his.

Do you believe what he said here to be true? Keeping in mind that without the shedding of blood there cannot be any remission of sins. You might want...or I should say that he might want to read/reread Hebrews 9

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

Jesus set out to do a job. The wages of sin is death...The physical death of the body is not complete death but only partial...Death is a total separation from life....So in order for Jesus to be dead He had to be completely separated from life...He had to spend three days in the belly of the Earth. He did that...then when He also rose from the dead, He took total victory over sin and death for us. Copeland was right. If we're going to learn we have to look at the entire picture... Let me add here......This is not the entire picture either...What did He do while He was in the belly of the Earth?

 

[Christ4Ever]

Jesus set out to do a job. The wages of sin is death...The physical death of the body is not complete death but only partial...Death is a total separation from life....So in order for Jesus to be dead He had to be completely separated from life...He had to spend three days in the belly of the Earth. He did that...then when He also rose from the dead, He took total victory over sin and death for us. Copeland was right. If we're going to learn we have to look at the entire picture... Let me add here......This is not the entire picture either...What did He do while He was in the belly of the Earth?

So, both were needed brother. Which is not what he did with the words he used of ".....anybody could do that". Our Lord was without Sin in both Body & Spirit. That's where the almost right comes in.

Now we need to apologize to Brother Paul, for we have diverted his thread once again!! Apologies @Brother-Paul

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Bendito]

So, both were needed brother. Which is not what he did with the words he used of ".....anybody could do that". Our Lord was without Sin in both Body & Spirit. That's where the almost right comes in.

Now we need to apologize to Brother Paul, for we have diverted his thread once again!! Apologies @Brother-Paul

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

We have diverted which thread? And yes Nick....Anybody could die for anybody. Jesus had to pay the penalty and redeem us from death and hell....Only He could die, go to hell, and rise from the dead.....That's how He did it. He did all three. Who taught you that it only took one thing, Physical death? Not the bible.

 

[Christ4Ever]

We have diverted which thread? And yes Nick....Anybody could die for anybody. Jesus had to pay the penalty and redeem us from death and hell....Only He could die, go to hell, and rise from the dead.....That's how He did it. He did all three. Who taught you that it only took one thing, Physical death? Not the bible.

And you read that last part in one of my posts where? :smile: It was what I took from from the quote I mentioned.
I'd add more but like I mentioned before we're moving past the intent of this thread by Brother Paul. Not so much from everyone else, but there you have it.
How about I create a thread with the quote as a title, and we go from there? I'll even move some of the last ones we've both done, so total context is not lost.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Dear Brother @Bendito
Now we can post without upsetting anyone but ourselves! :smile: LOL
Certainly not the intent of course.

Now back to the latter part. If you looked at what he wrote, don't you believe that he was giving no credit that the physical death was as necessary as the spiritual one as well? Implying that in truth, any physical death on the Cross could have happened and been sufficient to meet that part of the requirement of Sacrifice. Personally IMO any other physical death but Christ's would not have been sinless and satisfied this requirement that it had to be so. So, by your previous comment of "Who taught you that it only took one thing, Physical death? Not the bible." shows that you agree with me and not him.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[KingJ]

''It wasn't the physical death on the cross that paid the price for sin..anybody could do that . The plan of redemption had just begun, there were still three days and three nights to be gone through. ''

I can see why he teaches this. He wants people to imagine Jesus suffering un-imagineable cruelties at the hands of the devil. There are many who say ''they suffered worse'' then Jesus. We can't have that can we. Especially when we need to push a belief that God will torture people for eternity in hell for their sin. They have to ''escalate'' the suffering of Jesus to a higher level to justify a terrifying fear of God. Make God wicked. Make the wicked fear God and you get more people to pay money into your coffers.


Anyway, he is wrong due to these reasons:

1. It was not just any person dying. It was God.
2. God lay his life down for others. It is the greatest act of love John 15:13. If someone else lays their life down for others, that is something yes. That is why if we do it for God we go straight to heaven Rev 2:10. Those with Jesus, were not laying their lives down for anyone. They were being crucified for their sins. Not ''anybody'' can lay their life down for others.
3. It was the death of His flesh that heals us from sins. Isa 53:5 is clear that by His stripes we are healed from sin.
4. Matt 27:46 He quoted it, but did not add Rom 6:23. It says at the ninth hour Jesus said ''why hast thou forsaken me?'' God left Him. He entered death.
5. John 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.
6. Jesus was a lamb to the slaughter for humans. Not angels. There was no reason to suffer in hell at the mercy of the devil and demons. Heb 2:16 We also know that the Son did not come to help angels; he came to help the descendants of Abraham.
7. Rom 6:23 Wages of sin death. Jesus ''only'' had to die / be separated from God. That happened at the ninth hour.

 

[Bendito]

''It wasn't the physical death on the cross that paid the price for sin..anybody could do that . The plan of redemption had just begun, there were still three days and three nights to be gone through. ''

I can see why he teaches this. He wants people to imagine Jesus suffering un-imagineable cruelties at the hands of the devil. There are many who say ''they suffered worse'' then Jesus. We can't have that can we. Especially when we need to push a belief that God will torture people for eternity in hell for their sin. They have to ''escalate'' the suffering of Jesus to a higher level to justify a terrifying fear of God. Make God wicked. Make the wicked fear God and you get more people to pay money into your coffers.


Anyway, he is wrong due to these reasons:

1. It was not just any person dying. It was God.
2. God lay his life down for others. It is the greatest act of love John 15:13. If someone else lays their life down for others, that is something yes. That is why if we do it for God we go straight to heaven Rev 2:10. Those with Jesus, were not laying their lives down for anyone. They were being crucified for their sins. Not ''anybody'' can lay their life down for others.
3. It was the death of His flesh that heals us from sins. Isa 53:5 is clear that by His stripes we are healed from sin.
4. Matt 27:46 He quoted it, but did not add Rom 6:23. It says at the ninth hour Jesus said ''why hast thou forsaken me?'' God left Him. He entered death.
5. John 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.
6. Jesus was a lamb to the slaughter for humans. Not angels. There was no reason to suffer in hell at the mercy of the devil and demons. Heb 2:16 We also know that the Son did not come to help angels; he came to help the descendants of Abraham.
7. Rom 6:23 Wages of sin death. Jesus ''only'' had to die / be separated from God. That happened at the ninth hour.

All I can do is shake my head here...The incomprehension is apalling!

 

[Bendito]

Dear Brother @Bendito
Now we can post without upsetting anyone but ourselves! :smile: LOL
Certainly not the intent of course.

Now back to the latter part. If you looked at what he wrote, don't you believe that he was giving no credit that the physical death was as necessary as the spiritual one as well? Implying that in truth, any physical death on the Cross could have happened and been sufficient to meet that part of the requirement of Sacrifice. Personally IMO any other physical death but Christ's would not have been sinless and satisfied this requirement that it had to be so. So, by your previous comment of "Who taught you that it only took one thing, Physical death? Not the bible." shows that you agree with me and not him.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

Hmmm At this point I agree with the post above by

Dear Brother,
Your quote then his.

Do you believe what he said here to be true? Keeping in mind that without the shedding of blood there cannot be any remission of sins. You might want...or I should say that he might want to read/reread Hebrews 9

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

I do believe what Copeland said is true....

 

[B-A-C]

Heb 9:14; how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Only one person in the world since the dawn of time qualifies as "without blemish".

1 Pet 1:19; but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

Sacrifices in the OT had to be perfect, not crippled, not aged, no spots, no sores, no blemishes, no sickness. Only one person meets all of those requirements.

 

[Fragrant Grace]

As well as denying that our Lord Jesus death on the cross saved us.....Copeland further degrades Jesus with false statements such as:

We are the body of His Word. We are carriers of faith. Without us, people die and go to Hell. Without us being strong, Jesus is not strong.

Jesus is no longer the only begotten Son of God

Jesus has not remained the same, He has changed.

Jesus had to give up His righteousness.

Jesus took on the nature of Satan when He was on the cross

Satan conquered Jesus on the Cross and took His spirit to the dark regions of Hell.

 

[Fragrant Grace]

Brother @Bendito

Which part of brother @KingJ 's post do you find incorrect and why?

I do not see that he has posted anything that goes against the Bible

 

[Brother-Paul]

''It wasn't the physical death on the cross that paid the price for sin..anybody could do that . The plan of redemption had just begun, there were still three days and three nights to be gone through. ''

I can see why he teaches this. He wants people to imagine Jesus suffering un-imagineable cruelties at the hands of the devil. There are many who say ''they suffered worse'' than Jesus.

There are people who say, they suffer worse, brother, that is what pain and suffering does, it tries to take our eyes off Jesus, but I cannot even imagine thinking it. That is why hell will feel a lonely place. I suffer pain 24/7, varying degrees, I cannot sit in one place to long, but I also cannot hobble very far, each movement or none movement eases the pain to a manageable level, but each can also exaggerate it if I try do to much, it is a balance, a fine one at times, it is one I have to manage daily. But I do not let this get me down any more than I can, Roman's 8:28. The medical profession look at me when I say, 'I never say why me', because if I say 'why me' I would in effect say it should be someone else and that is not right. And also when I say, 'no matter what I go through, I will never suffer as much as Jesus did for me, for us'. They tend to frown and never have an answer.

Sorry brother, I just picking up on the above statement, some feel they suffer more than Jesus! Back on topic my friend.

Peace be with you.

 

[KingJ]

There are people who say, they suffer worse, brother, that is what pain and suffering does, it tries to take our eyes off Jesus, but I cannot even imagine thinking it. That is why hell will feel a lonely place. I suffer pain 24/7, varying degrees, I cannot sit in one place to long, but I also cannot hobble very far, each movement or none movement eases the pain to a manageable level, but each can also exaggerate it if I try do to much, it is a balance, a fine one at times, it is one I have to manage daily. But I do not let this get me down any more than I can, Roman's 8:28. The medical profession look at me when I say, 'I never say why me', because if I say 'why me' I would in effect say it should be someone else and that is not right. And also when I say, 'no matter what I go through, I will never suffer as much as Jesus did for me, for us'. They tend to frown and never have an answer.

Sorry brother, I just picking up on the above statement, some feel they suffer more than Jesus! Back on topic my friend.

Peace be with you.

Sorry for your pain. Will be praying for you. That sounds terrible.

Pain and suffering can make for one hell of a thread.

I discern pain and suffering under these categories:

1. Adam' sin corrupting the earth
2. God testing His people
3. Plagues to get wicked to repent
4. God's wrath on those sold out to sin

In your case, it is a combination of 1 and 2. Like God tested Job, He will test each of us. Not to see if we are saved, but to push our devotion for Him to its limits. Job's crown will always read ''He endured x and y for God and yet remained faithful''. These trials and tribulation create a stronger relationship between us and God. Just like a wife who stays with a husband through poverty. That husband knows he has a gem with him. God knows I am no 'Job', that is why my life is more pleasant. But I can only imagine what God has planned for Job in heaven, for all eternity.

The wrath on Jesus falls under point 4. Every occasion of God's wrath coming upon those sold out to sin (Gen 18:20, Gen 15:16) resulted in swift destruction. The flood was many days of panic and then 3-5 minutes drowning. Sodom was a few minutes of panic and then 15 seconds (I may be out a few secs) of feeling fire burn you. It pleased God to bruise Jesus the same way as He has dealt with every ''pure sinner'' in the past. IE All God wanted was to remove Himself 100% from Jesus and then destroy His flesh.

Just to add, what is important to grasp is that in every instance we can defend God as ''good''. 1. Corruption from free will. Free will is good. 2. Greater reward for His more faithful children. 3. Terrifying plagues will come upon people in the tribulation, but this is God's last ditch attempt to get people to convert. 4. Swift destruction. God's version of a 'lethal' injection.

 

[KingJ]

All I can do is shake my head here...The incomprehension is apalling!

I can only imagine you thinking of three days of torture.

I do believe Jesus was ''trapped'' in death for three days. As per Matt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. .

Some points to note on this.

1. Jonah was not tortured in the belly of the whale.
2. Isa 53:10 says it pleased God to bruise Jesus. The bruising had already taken place. There is no scripture that says it pleased God to torture Jesus thereafter.
3. Trapped in death is the consequence of sin. God abandoning Jesus.

The three days in Hades has very mixed views among Christians.

We must not blur the statement that Copeland made though. He said ''It wasn't the physical death on the cross that paid the price for sin ''. It was. What came after the 'ninth' hour was something else. It is a separate discussion.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Sorry for your pain. Will be praying for you. That sounds terrible.

Pain and suffering can make for one hell of a thread.

I discern pain and suffering under these categories:

1. Adam' sin corrupting the earth
2. God testing His people
3. Plagues to get wicked to repent
4. God's wrath on those sold out to sin

In your case, it is a combination of 1 and 2. Like God tested Job, He will test each of us. Not to see if we are saved, but to push our devotion for Him to its limits. Job's crown will always read ''He endured x and y for God and yet remained faithful''. These trials and tribulation create a stronger relationship between us and God. Just like a wife who stays with a husband through poverty. That husband knows he has a gem with him.

The wrath on Jesus falls under point 4. Every occasion of God's wrath coming upon those sold out to sin (Gen 18:20, Gen 15:16) resulted in swift destruction. The flood was many days of panic and then 3-5 minutes drowning. Sodom was a few minutes of panic and then 15 seconds (I may be out a few secs) of feeling fire burn you. It pleased God to bruise Jesus the same way as He has dealt with every ''pure sinner'' in the past. IE All God wanted was to remove Himself 100% from Jesus and then destroy His flesh.

Thank you brother

Adam's sin has corrupted the earth as we know, but all who come to Christ and truly repent there sins are wiped away, never to be remembered again by God. Those who are forgiven more love more, I say no more brother.

Now, item 2 is different, yes He does test us and tests us all differently, they can and do for many push our love and devotion to Him like nothing we have ever known.

I am not going into my past here, not in detail, I have shared bits elsewhere. Picking one issue, I was abused by a vicar in my teens, he was Mr Nice Guy, a new vicar in the village, and due to being brought up in a broken home the way I was, I was told to go to church to learn how to be good! How they needed to take the log out of their eyes first. The abuse was in three stages over two years, the first time I froze, after a period of time I broke away, questions were asked why I wasn't with the other lads, I made excuses and took up fishing in the local river. But, when I was with the rest of the lads, they had money, they had cakes and sweets. I went back thinking it wouldn't happen again, he talked me into going back at choir practice which was in the vicarage. He talked of love and I had seen none at home. But then it started again, again I froze, my insides locked up like steel. Everything went on 'inside', I broke away again, but after time the same happened again. I thought after breaking away twice it wouldn't happen again. He got us into Pontin's holiday place for free, this was good, lots of girls, slot machines, etc, but after choir practice and other times, cut my lawn I will give you this much etc, I went back. Again it happened, each time I froze, I was screwed up, I started to hate him and eventually stopped going, but the hate didn't leave me, I hated him, what he stood for, I hated the church, though I didn't know any more than the stone building we had to sing in. That hate inside, telling no one, was like a jagged knife in the stomach and gut pushed in and twisted, My hate got so much I set fire to his orchard probably as a means of retaliation.

Some people who are abused, according to statistics, they end up abusing others, for me it was the reverse, I became girl mad, sexually obsessed, any girl, even those not quite of age, though at the time I wasn't away there was a minimum age. After college I got a job, but at seventeen and a half I was crushed inside a concrete tunnel, incinerator. I almost died, it took five or six big guys to get the concrete off me and get me out. I was off 5 months, I was an apprentice on £11 a week, I got compensation yes, 5 months at £11 loss of wages nothing more.

Moving on quickly through first marriage, children, obsession for ladies, the marriage broke up, there is a lot more to this and the hell I went through, but jumping ahead to my early forties when I accepted Christ as my saviour and ALL my SINS were forgiven, slate wiped clean etc as we know. My past hate haunted me, my past experiences also, plus a business failure and moving 300 miles to a place we had never been before. It was here that my heart started searching, I have shared previously how things happened, my first Bible, and that one day I said to my wife, 'I am going to church on Sunday', she knew of my hate for anyone who would try tell me about, Jesus, God, the Church etc. but although we had twenty years together and she know of my previous marriage and shared in the hell we went threw she knew nothing of any other part of my past. It was deeply locked within me.

But also around this time I had a silly accident at work, so simple yet it happened, my coccyx hit the corner of a radiator! Ouch was not the word. Again a simple but extremely painful situation ended up a complex issue. The medical profession prescribed pain killers and anti inflammatory, they didn't take the pain away so they increased the dose. There was an allergic reaction, as they put it and tried to correct this with more prescribed drugs, 3 doctors prescribed 13 drugs before I was rushed into an isolation ward, they called me the yellow man, I almost died of liver failure due to the drugs.

All this happened around the time of coming to faith, and my wife put it down to illuminations, isn't that what the world does.

My faith increased, but then so did the issues at home, it got so hot I couldn't have my Bible where it could be seen in the home. I became more confused, my hate had gone, for the first time I knew there really was a God, not one ounce of doubt, but my wife was against me, she set the kids against me, I could not understand then why having come to Christ, believing in all my heart He could allow this to happen. I had to stop going to the place of worship, the church, and pray and just try love my family through this period. One day, in my job, I went to survey a property, I did my job and coming out stood on the doorstep talking to the man and woman. To my amazement the guy sad, 'you have problems don't you, would you like to come in we can pray for you' How did he know I thought but I went in. I found out soon after that he was a retired Pentecostal minister. The Lord provides.

I was taught how to pray for protection, taught about the devil's tricks, we prayed often, I was able to call in my lunch break and have fellowship without my wife knowing as it would have created more issues and my marriage would have probably split. I learned to stand in faith from early on, I learned to claim scripture early on, I was being Blessed although it didn't feel that way, I had a new fear within. Some remarkable things happened especially after three and a half years of prayer, I think I shared that, it was incredible how it happened, the timing etc. But meanwhile I ended up in depression, I prayed for help and felt I needed counselling, though I told no one. One day at my doctors he said have you considered counselling, I said I had but, I thought I should have a Christian counsellor. He said just wait here I need to go out of the room a minute, I sat there wondering, he returned with a lady, he said this is Margaret, she is a Christian, she is a counsellor will you see her. I did it was slow at first, then like being sucked into a tube I was sucked backwards and my past was opened up for the first time, back through all the years, issues back to the sexual abuse, issues back to three years old. This was when another set of issues arose, my wife could not understand why I had not told her these things, how could I tell another woman and not her! I was being set free, and my faith had been built on the Rock, Jesus Christ our Lord.

God tests His people to make them stronger, sometimes we cannot understand this, we cannot see it, but later He reveals it to us, often through others.

We may have to suffer, many do have to suffer, but He never lets us suffer more than we can endure (honest), We will never ever suffer as much as Christ suffered for us, when He was crucified for us and took upon Himself the sins of the whole world.

When pain strikes, do not let it drive us down, instead look up and rejoice, give thanks, we will only suffer for a period, providing we are truly saved and our name is in The Book of Life and The Lamb, life and pain is like the blink of an eye, this life is short, our future life is eternal, the old order will have gone, no pain, no suffering, no crying, no weeping, no curse, no sin, we will be with our Lord forever. Thank you Jesus, in your precious Name we pray and give thanks. Amen

 

[Dave M]

All I can do is shake my head here...The ignorance is apalling!

dear brother just because someone disagrees with you, do you find it Christian like to call names at that person??

Hey I am guilty of name calling also, so forgive my finger pointing

, let us hold each other to a higher standard

we are tested on this forums mostly when we disagree, not when we agree, let us use scripture to pass this test.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8
Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

 

[Br. Bear]

we are tested on this forums mostly when we disagree, not when we agree, let us use scripture to pass this test.

Well said Dave,

and the testing is not from the Staff!

the same goes in all areas of our life. When things are groovy, so are we but when things get bumpy.... we tend to get grumpy!

anyway, good observation,


Bless you ....><>

 

[Dave M]

and the testing is not from the Staff!

LOL now thats funny right there