The Nature of Temptations

[BLACKSHEEP]

Curtis said,

Only one who possesses a rational method of interpretation (i.e., a hermeneutic) could determine the truth or falsity of a message.
This total false hood. The Bible is not rational, or logical, it is illogical, not rational, so why would anyone want to use some kind of rational method to try and interpret it meaning when it is the "anointing" (Christ) that teaches us all things?
The Apostle Paul warned the Church about people who try and understand scripture by this method.

To make it simple for you, a hermeneutic is simply a sensible method of interpretation. It's called, "the science of interpretation." Without at least a bit of a hermeneutic, people can make the bible say whatever they want by twisting scripture and fabricating whatever they want into it. The bible is very rational, it comes from inspired men moved by the holy spirit. To say it's illogical and irrational is blasphemy.

The anointing is a word often used by Pentecostals to prop up their inadequacies. I've had some Pentecostals tell me "I know I'm right because I have the anointing of the holy spirit and he would not lie to me."

For any truth to be revealed to us we must put a good amount of effort into acquiring it by utilizing every available resource we can. We just can't sit back in out chair and say "God reveal the truth to me, anoint me." God does not enlighten the mind of a person who puts little effort into acquiring truth, or someone who believes they already have the truth, or someone who thinks God will just reveal it to them "out of thin air."

Curtis again,

Brother, I stand by what I said. The scripture I quoted is about people who would try and misinterpret the Word based on using philosophy, vain deceit, human traditions , human religion and world principles contrary to the gospel.

So here are a few of my virtues of a good sensible hermeneutic. Maybe you need to re-examine what you're saying here. I think you are really out of line. Any good student of God's Word knows that a hermeneutic is not part of the things you've just listed. If anything, what you said applies to you!

A SIMPLE HERMENEUTIC

1. Approach the scriptures objectively with simplicity and logic and without bias. Don't approach them with the mindset that you already have things figured out. In the years I've spent trying to figure things out, the most simple and logical interpretation was usually the correct one.

2. The bible was written in the old days in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, with some Chaldean words, and then translated into Latin. So if you believe in the inspired Word of God, then it's really simple. Inspired means God breathed or God spoke. God spoke to his servants the PROPHETS IN THE LANGUAGE THEY SPOKE, WROTE, AND UNDERSTOOD. So utilize the lexicons!

Today we have so many great resources available to make research quick and easy. When you open Greek-English lexicon and interlinear, you learn from the endeavors of others who have mastered the original languages at the click of a mouse.

3. Use bible resources like bible dictionary's etc. especially the lexicons and the interlinear....these are some of the books I burned...

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance with dictionary of Greek and Hebrew words, an Interlinear NT, Bakers Dictionary of Theology, Wuest Word Studies in the Greek New Testament, Christian Theology (by Bancroft), Knowing the doctrines of the Bible, Smith's Bible Dictionary, Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, A topical Bible, Halley's Bible Handbook, a book on Exploring the Old Testament, and New Testament Survey, and last but not least, a book on Manners and Customs in the Bible. Most of these are now available online.

4. Weed out interpretations. Sometimes it's profitable to weed out the interpretations that appear MOST contradictory. There may be 3-4 possible interpretations and cancelling out the ones that conflict with other verses limits the possibilities. Ex. We know that a religion will have something to do with end-time prophecy. There are a few choices. Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Christianity. Weed out the ones that just don't fit and research the rest. Sadly, Christians often tell us the man of sin will come from within the so called "apostate church!" Myself, in my research, ISLAM is the religion of the beast(s).

5. Determine if a passage is literal or figurative. It's usually determined by the context and looking at the passage logically. In other words, if the literal interpretation doesn't make sense, it's usually figurative, and if the passage doesn't make sense figuratively, it's literal.

6. Look at the dates and look at history. This is quite important and serious blunders have made some Christian interpretations debunk the bible!

7. Accept the results of your research even when it goes against what you already believe. I've found that the typical Christian just doesn't care about scriptural evidence, or the lack of it. They fight to support their beliefs even when there's a mountain of scriptural evidence AGAINST what they believe. Be willing to change your mind, especially when the evidence is there to do so. I've always said that it's easier to take a sliver out of the back side of a wild cat than it is to change the mind of a Christian.

"The greatest impediment Christians have obtaining the Truth is when they think they already have it."

Brother, I stand by what I said. The scripture I quoted is about people who would try and misinterpret the Word based on using philosophy, vain deceit, human traditions , human religion and world principles contrary to the gospel.
The anointing is method God has chosen to teach his children, and anything else would cause some to be lead astray as captives to false teaching.

Sorry bro, but that's what I see you doing!

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

yet you just know who God is without anyone else telling you

yes, if we stop and think a bit... how do you do that? Bit like describing a colour. Pretty tricky... unless you have an example.


Bless you ....><>

ps... what sort of fish is that?

 

[Curtis]

Curtis said,


To make it simple for you, a hermeneutic is simply a sensible method of interpretation. It's called, "the science of interpretation." Without at least a bit of a hermeneutic, people can make the bible say whatever they want by twisting scripture and fabricating whatever they want into it. The bible is very rational, it comes from inspired men moved by the holy spirit. To say it's illogical and irrational is blasphemy.

The anointing is a word often used by Pentecostals to prop up their inadequacies. I've had some Pentecostals tell me "I know I'm right because I have the anointing of the holy spirit and he would not lie to me."

For any truth to be revealed to us we must put a good amount of effort into acquiring it by utilizing every available resource we can. We just can't sit back in out chair and say "God reveal the truth to me, anoint me." God does not enlighten the mind of a person who puts little effort into acquiring truth, or someone who believes the already have the truth, or someone who thinks God will just reveal it to them "out of thin air."

Curtis again,


So here are a few of my virtues of a good sensible hermeneutic. Maybe you need to re-examine what you're saying here. I think you are really out of line. any good student of God's Word knows that a hermeneutic is no part of the things you've just listed. If anything, they apply to you!

A SIMPLE HERMENEUTIC

1. Approach the scriptures objectively with simplicity and logic and without bias. Don't approach them with the mindset that you already have things figured out. In the years I've spent trying to figure things out, the most simple and logical interpretation was usually the correct one.

2. The bible was written in the old days in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, with some Chaldean words, and then translated into Latin. So if you believe in the inspired Word of God, then it's really simple. Inspired means God breathed or God spoke. God spoke to his servants the PROPHETS IN THE LANGUAGE THEY SPOKE, WROTE, AND UNDERSTOOD. So utilize the lexicons!

Today we have so many great resources available to make research quick and easy. When you open Greek-English lexicon and interlinear, you learn from the endeavors of others who have mastered the original languages at the click of a mouse.

3. Use bible resources like bible dictionary's etc. especially the lexicons and the interlinear....these are some of the books I burned...

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance with dictionary of Greek and Hebrew words, an Interlinear NT, Bakers Dictionary of Theology, Wuest Word Studies in the Greek New Testament, Christian Theology (by Bancroft), Knowing the doctrines of the Bible, Smith's Bible Dictionary, Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, A topical Bible, Halley's Bible Handbook, a book on Exploring the Old Testament, and New Testament Survey, and last but not least, a book on Manners and Customs in the Bible. Most of these are now available online.

4. Weed out interpretations. Sometimes it's profitable to weed out the interpretations that appear MOST contradictory. There may be 3-4 possible interpretations and cancelling out the ones that conflict with other verses limits the possibilities. Ex. We know that a religion will have something to do with end-time prophecy. There are a few choices. Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Christianity. Weed out the ones that just don't fit and research the rest. Sadly, Christians often tell us the man of sin will come from within the so called "apostate church!" Myself, in my research, ISLAM is the religion of the beast(s).

5. Determine if a passage is literal or figurative. It's usually determined by the context and looking at the passage logically. In other words, if the literal interpretation doesn't make sense, it's usually figurative, and if the passage doesn't make sense figuratively, it's literal.

6. Look at the dates and look at history. This is quite important and serious blunders have made some Christian interpretations debunk the bible!

7. Accept the results of your research even when it goes against what you already believe. I've found that Christians just don't care about scriptural evidence, or the lack of it. They fight to support their beliefs even when there's a mountain of scriptural evidence AGAINST what they believe. Be willing to change your mind, especially when the evidence is there to do so. I've always said that it's easier to take a sliver out of the back side of a wild cat than it is to change the mind of a Christian. "The greatest impediment Christians have obtaining the Truth is when they think they already have it."



Sorry bro, but that's what I see you doing!

Sorry, but what you do is NOT what I would do. I'll stick to the Holy Spirit for all my interpretations.

 

[BLACKSHEEP]

Sorry, but what you do is NOT what I would do. I'll stick to the Holy Spirit for all my interpretations.

The holy spirit doesn't enlighten the mind of a person with truth who doesn't put effort into obtaining it.

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

STUDY...to exert one's self, endeavour, give diligence, courage and action.

TO SHEW...To present.

APPROVED...Pleasing and acceptable.

WORKMAN...Laborer of a servant of Christ in 2Ti 2:15

NEEDETH NOT BE ASHAMED...Having no cause to be ashamed.

RIGHTLY DIVIDING...To make straight and smooth, to handle aright, to teach the truth directly and correctly. Rightly handle the Word of God, as one would rightly handle a sword. (There's such a thing as wrongly dividing).
WORD...Speech.

OF TRUTH...The truth as taught in the Christian religion, respecting God.

Guzick...
Every Christian, but pastors especially, must work hard to be rightly dividing the word of truth. Though perfection in understanding God’s word is impossible, and should never be assumed, we should still work hard at it.

1 Timothy 5:17, "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine."

Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

 

[KingJ]

Kingj said,

How many times do I have to tell you that I believe Jesus is God but only that God is greater because Jesus said so!

If Jesus is God, how can God be greater? ABC, 123 logic.

Is this what you call equal???

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

“The Son cannot do anything at his own pleasure, he can only do what he sees his Father doing.” (John 5:19 KJV)

Jesus is no longer a lamb to the slaughter in human flesh. So this no longer applies. He limited Himself on earth to uphold who He is, good. It was good in His eyes to be completely under the flesh as we are.

There's no such thing as ABC logic when trinitarians themselves tell you that the trinity cannot be fully explained or understood!

Here is your ABC logic...

• There is exactly one God
• The Father is God
• The Son is God
• The Holy Spirit is God
• The Father is not the Son
• The Son is not the Holy Spirit
• The Father is not the Holy Spirit

It can be confusing. This terminology clarifies it: God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, God the Father.

So now lets go to the trinity fabrications that attempt to cover up these contradictions...

You said,

That's a losing argument and contradictory to the Trinity doctrine which states that, "Jesus is 100% God and 100% man!"

Besides that, I know you can't support that concept with scripture!

“For there is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.” (1 Timothy 2:5

“Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and the God of all comfort.” (2Corinthians 1:3 KJV)

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Peter 1:3 KJV)

I said, "The Trinity is a terribly fabricated and contradictory doctrine."

You replied,

No, I never said that, so maybe you should try to get things right. Trinitarians are notorious at misquoting people. The fabricated and contradictory Trinity doctrine is what you've accepted, so don't presume what I believe by the falsity you've accepted. I've told you multiple times that Jesus is God and only that God is greater. You are behaving like the typical misled Trinitarian.

That was not my reply. Your problem is you are focusing on isolated verses and then arriving at random conclusions. You need to grasp the high level and allow that to shine light on the scriptures you quoting.

Ask yourself, if you were God, how would you lay your life down for mankind?

 

[Curtis]

The holy spirit doesn't enlighten the mind of a person with truth who doesn't put effort into obtaining it.

God does not "enlighten" the physical mind at all, he enlightens mans "heart" which is his spirit.

Eph 1:18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,

 

[Curtis]

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

STUDY...to exert one's self, endeavour, give diligence, courage and action.

TO SHEW...To present.

John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will ALL be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—

Who is the teacher? Why would anyone present themselves before God? So they can be taught!

2Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

God alone is the teacher, and every thing he teaches is approved by him, and the person who has been taught by God will never be ashamed.

 

[Curtis]

1 Timothy 5:17, "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine."

Laboring in the word is NOT trying to figure it out what it is saying, it is laboring (work) in believing the Word!

Joh 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[Curtis]

The natural man is where we all start life, the life inherited from Adam. The natural man is unregenerate man, unsaved man.

The natural man with its human nature never gets saved because it is corrupted with sin, which is why, "The outward man is perishing while the inward man is being renewed day by day." (2 Cor 4:16)

 

[Curtis]

Greetings,



yes, if we stop and think a bit... how do you do that? Bit like describing a colour. Pretty tricky... unless you have an example.


Bless you ....><>

ps... what sort of fish is that?

1John 5:10 He who believes in the Son of God [who adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Him] has the testimony [possesses this divine attestation] within himself. He who does not believe God [in this way] has made Him out to be and represented Him as a liar, because he has not believed (put his faith in, adhered to, and relied on) the evidence (the testimony) that God has borne regarding His Son. (AMP)

Anyone who does not believe he is saved does NOT have the witness of God within him, and is NOT a child of God.

 

[BLACKSHEEP]

If Jesus is God, how can God be greater? ABC, 123 logic.
Jesus is no longer a lamb to the slaughter in human flesh. So this no longer applies. He limited Himself on earth to uphold who He is, good. It was good in His eyes to be completely under the flesh as we are.

That's funny, not only is that contradictory to the Trinity doctrine which states that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man. For some reason, while he was a "lamb to the slaughter," he was able to change water into wine, heal demon possession, heal people who were sick, have people catch large amounts of fish, healed a leper and a paralyzed man, heal a withered hand, raise the dead, calm a storm, heal the blind, heal a demon possessed man, feed 5,000 people, walk on water, heal dropsy, heal 10 lepers, raise Lazarus who was dead, restored a severed ear, heal a demon possessed mute, even the catching a fish with a coin in it's mouth. So he was limited huh?

Besides that, I believe Jesus and not KingJ…

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

It can be confusing. This terminology clarifies it: God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, God the Father.

I don't find it confusing at all, but I suppose that is the problem with the Trinity doctrine. By the way, whose terminology is that? You have 1/3 of it right, "God the Father." Help me out here. Show me where Jesus is called, "God the son!" Show me where the holy spirit is called, "God the holy spirit!"

 

[BLACKSHEEP]

The natural man with its human nature never gets saved because it is corrupted with sin, which is why, "The outward man is perishing while the inward man is being renewed day by day." (2 Cor 4:16)

Is that what you think about me just because I haven't accepted the Trinity doctrine? I have to wonder how many of you trinitarian's know how the doctrine originated.

 

[BLACKSHEEP]

Ask yourself, if you were God, how would you lay your life down for mankind?

Lets start at the beginning. Where is it said that God had to die to redeem mankind?

R.C. Sproul...

We should shrink in horror from the idea that God actually died on the cross. The atonement was made by the human nature of Christ. Somehow people tend to think that this lessens the dignity or the value of the substitutionary act, as if we were somehow implicitly denying the deity of Christ. God forbid. It’s the God-man Who dies, but death is something that is experienced only by the human nature, because the divine nature isn’t capable of experiencing death.

Did God Die on the Cross?

 

[KingJ]

That's funny, not only is that contradictory to the Trinity doctrine which states that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man. For some reason, while he was a "lamb to the slaughter," he was able to change water into wine, heal demon possession, heal people who were sick, have people catch large amounts of fish, healed a leper and a paralyzed man, heal a withered hand, raise the dead, calm a storm, heal the blind, heal a demon possessed man, feed 5,000 people, walk on water, heal dropsy, heal 10 lepers, raise Lazarus who was dead, restored a severed ear, heal a demon possessed mute, even the catching a fish with a coin in it's mouth. So he was limited huh?

Besides that, I believe Jesus and not KingJ…

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Jesus says we will do greater things then He did John 14:12, does that make us greater then Jesus? You think God considers walking on water as a display of His power?

I don't find it confusing at all, but I suppose that is the problem with the Trinity doctrine. By the way, whose terminology is that? You have 1/3 of it right, "God the Father." Help me out here. Show me where Jesus is called, "God the son!" Show me where the holy spirit is called, "God the holy spirit!"

Every scripture stating they are God, equal with God.

You are opening the door to heresy. ''Jesus is not as great''. You are just not trying hard enough to grasp Jesus.

 

[BLACKSHEEP]

KingJ said,

Jesus says we will do greater things then He did John 14:12, does that make us greater then Jesus? You think God considers walking on water as a display of His power?

1. You have issues with context. In verse 28 Jesus specifically uses the word "I" to show God is greater than "HE."

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

In verse 12 the context and antecedent to the word "GREATER" is WORKS! The word in in the original text as the word "ACTS". That has nothing to do with Jesus' claim that the Father is greater. It only says that the apostles would do greater 'ACTS' than Jesus. If Jesus were fully God, I doubt he would say, "the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

You're comparing the superior greatness of God over Jesus to the acts His followers can do to support your failing myth of a trinity.

 

[KingJ]

Lets start at the beginning. Where is it said that God had to die to redeem mankind?

?

Wages of sin is death Rom 6:23 + God is good Psalm 136:1 + God is love 1 John 4:8 = God knew He had to die for us when He made us. Hence Eph 1:3.

Scripture says we were planned in Christ before the foundations of the world. Before God made the earth. Consider that God made mankind in flesh. We had a corruptible and weak flesh from day one. With a forbidden tree in the garden. Mankind + redeemer was part and parcel of God's plan from the first instance He thought of it. We can also raise a free will argument. If we consider how even angels in heaven, created without a weak flesh and sinned. Fallen angels and mankind is evidence of free will.

Eph 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

R.C. Sproul...

We should shrink in horror from the idea that God actually died on the cross. The atonement was made by the human nature of Christ. Somehow people tend to think that this lessens the dignity or the value of the substitutionary act, as if we were somehow implicitly denying the deity of Christ. God forbid. It’s the God-man Who dies, but death is something that is experienced only by the human nature, because the divine nature isn’t capable of experiencing death.

Did God Die on the Cross

This excerpt from RC Sproul is true. By you quoting it, it seems as though you are not grasping the difference between a spiritual death and a physical death. Nobody ever ceases to exist. The devil and every wicked person will live on in death in hell for all eternity. The context of death in 'The wages of sin is death', has always meant complete separation from God. Jesus endured that. Jesus endured physical death, spiritual death and was made as a Lamb to the slaughter / complete submission to those that hated Him.

It is the devils work to cast doubt, remove Jesus's deserved glory for the cross.

 

[KingJ]

KingJ said,

1. You have issues with context. In verse 28 Jesus specifically uses the word "I" to show God is greater than "HE."

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

In verse 12 the context and antecedent to the word "GREATER" is WORKS! The word in in the original text as the word "ACTS". That has nothing to do with Jesus' claim that the Father is greater. It only says that the apostles would do greater 'ACTS' than Jesus. If Jesus were fully God, I doubt he would say, "the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

You're comparing the superior greatness of God over Jesus to the acts His followers can do to support your failing myth of a trinity.

You have issues with matching replies to your statements. You said Jesus was not limited because of the miracles He did. As though He displayed fully who He was. A creation with less power then God. God creates the universe, but because Jesus can walk on water, He is just beneath God. No. Walking on water is likely 1/100000000000000000'th x 1000 centillion a display of power. Please grasp that. Your argument for Jesus not being limited falls so hard on its face. If I knew you would reply as you have, I would have just stated that Jesus did not walk on air when He carried His cross. Or did not heal Himself when He was bruised. Is that not a limitation of His power?

You are coming unstuck when you zoom in on an '''I'' in a cherry picked verse.

Jesus WAS limited. Jesus was not God the Father when He was on earth. He was God the Son. Isaiah 9:6 says the man called the Son of God is God. You are straining a gnat. For what reason? Why are you grabbing at straws to make an argument I expect to hear from the devil or an atheist, why?

Any argument against Jesus being God, is heresy. God could not lay His life down for us. Gosh why must we serve Him. Is that your end game?

 

[KingJ]

You're comparing the superior greatness of God over Jesus to the acts His followers can do to support your failing myth of a trinity.

I am not comparing God's greatness to Jesus, you are. I mentioned the great works we will do in contrast to you espousing Jesus was great because of them. If we can do them and we are far less then an ant to God, they don't support your assertion of Jesus not being limited.

I propose you compare the act of love on the cross that Jesus showed, to God's love. That is a comparison we can make.

 

[Curtis]

1. Christ was consecrated to humble Himself (Php 2:5).
2. Christ laid aside His divine form (Php 2:6).
3. Christ made Himself of no reputation (Php 2:7).
4. Christ took the form of a servant (Php 2:7).
5. Christ was made in the likeness of human beings (Php 2:7).
6. Christ humbled Himself (Php 2:8).
7. Christ became obedient unto death (Php 2:8).

 

[KingJ]

"the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

God the Father did the works because God the Son was limited. You are not even trying in the least to grasp this.

You are coming unstuck because Jesus spoke / prayed to God. It is recorded as Him speaking to God. He was setting an example for us. He was also showing us that He was in a state where He had to be reliant on God. A truly human state. No cheating. This is what God wants us to grasp!!!! So let's grasp it!!! This does not mean God was having identity issues. It means we are having interpretation / understanding issues.

It can be confusing, I do not blame anyone for being confused. But let's NOT BE CONFUSED on the ''absolute truths''.

Jesus did not object to the Jews wanting to crucify Him because they believed He believed He was equal with God John 5:18. Bottom line.

God is love 1 John 4:8 + greatest act of love recorded in God's word is to lay your life down John 15:13 = God can and did lay His life down. He did not get some random unlucky fella to do it. Just because we can't fully make sense of the times Jesus prayed to God, does not mean this is not true. There is sufficient scripture to shine light on those verses. Making any separation between Jesus and God, pushing a half truth. IE Heresy.

Undermining the cross is a dangerous area to be in. I hope you are judging yourself truthfully as you type here.