The Nature of Temptations

[B-A-C]

The book of genesis does NOT say the serpent is Lucifer. But you should have quoted Ezekiel 28:13...

But the book of Revelation does.

Rev 20:2; And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

Rev 12:9; And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

By the way, Lucifer isn't a name. It's a title.

Isa 14:12; "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

the following might be of interest in this discussion?


Bless you all ....><>

--------------------------
LUCIFER: A PROBLEM FOR CHRISTIANITY
Author Unknown

The word "Lucifer" in Isaiah 14:12 presents a minor problem to mainstream Christianity. It becomes a much larger problem to Bible literalists, and becomes a huge obstacle for the claims of Mormonism. John J. Robinson in A Pilgrim's Path, pp. 47-48 explains:

"Lucifer makes his appearance in the fourteenth chapter of the Old Testament book of Isaiah, at the twelfth verse, and nowhere else: ‘How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!’"

The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language? To find the answer, I consulted a scholar at the library of the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati. What Hebrew name, I asked, was Satan given in this chapter of Isaiah, which describes the angel who fell to become the ruler of hell?

The answer was a surprise. In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer."

Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or “bearer, of light." In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court (much as his personal splendor earned for King Louis XIV of France the appellation, "The Sun King").

The scholars authorized by King James I to translate the Bible into then current English did not use the original Hebrew texts, but used versions translated largely by St. Jerome in the fourth century. Jerome had mistranslated the Hebraic metaphor, "Day star, son of the Dawn," as "Lucifer," and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place. Lucifer the morning star became a disobedient angel, cast out of heaven to rule eternally in hell. Theologians, writers, and poets interwove the myth with the doctrine of the Fall, and in Christian tradition Lucifer is now the same as Satan, the Devil, and, ironically, the Prince of Darkness.

So "Lucifer" is nothing more than an ancient Latin name for the morning star, the bringer of light. That can be confusing for Christians who identify Christ himself as the morning star, a term used as a central theme in many Christian sermons. Jesus refers to himself as the morning star in Revelation 22:16: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

And so there are those who do not read beyond the King James Version of the Bible, who say “Lucifer is Satan: so says the Word of God."

Henry Neufeld (a Christian who comments on Biblical sticky issues) went on to say,

"This passage is often related to Satan, and a similar thought is expressed in Luke 10:18 by Jesus that was not its first meaning. Its primary meaning is given in Isaiah 14:4 which says that when Israel is restored they will "take up this taunt against the king of Babylon . . ." Verse 12 is a part of this taunt song. This passage refers first to the fall of that earthly king...

How does the confusion in translating this verse arise? The Hebrew of this passage reads: "heleyl, ben shachar" which can be literally translated "shining one, son of dawn." This phrase means, again literally, the planet Venus when it appears as a morning star. In the Septuagint, a 3rd century BCE translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek, it is translated as "heosphoros" which also means Venus as a morning star.

How did the translation "lucifer" arise? This word comes from Jerome's Latin Vulgate. Was Jerome in error? Not at all. In Latin at the time, "lucifer" actually meant Venus as a morning star. Isaiah is using this metaphor for a bright light, though not the greatest light to illustrate the apparent power of the Babylonian king which then faded." Therefore, Lucifer wasn't equated with Satan until after Jerome. Jerome wasn't in error. Later Christians (and Mormons) were in equating "Lucifer" with "Satan".

So why is this problem to Christians? Christians now generally believe that Satan (or the Devil/Lucifer) is a “being” who has always existed. Therefore, they also think that the Jews of the Old Testament believed in this creature. The Isaiah scripture is used as proof (and has been used as such for hundreds of years now). As Elaine Pagels explains, the Christian concept of Satan (Devil/Lucifer) has evolved over the years and the early bible writers didn't believe in or teach such a doctrine.

The irony for those who believe that "Lucifer" refers to Satan (Devil/Lucifer) is that the same title ('morning star' or 'light-bearer') is used to refer to Jesus, in 2 Peter 1:19, where the Greek text has exactly the same term: 'phos-phoros' 'light-bearer.' This is also the term used for Jesus in Revelation 22:16.

So why is Lucifer a far bigger problem to Mormons? Mormons claim that an ancient record (the Book of Mormon) was written beginning in about 600 BCE, and the author in 600 BCE supposedly copied Isaiah1 in Isaiah's original words.2 When Joseph Smith pretended to translate the supposed 'ancient record', he included the Lucifer verse in the Book of Mormon. Obviously he wasn't copying what Isaiah wrote. He was copying the King James Version of the Bible. Another book of Mormon scripture, the Doctrine & Covenants, furthers this problem in 76:26 3 when it affirms the false Christian doctrine that "Lucifer" means Satan. This incorrect doctrine also spread into a third set of Mormon scriptures, the Pearl of Great Price, which describes a war in heaven based, in part, on Joseph Smith's incorrect interpretation of the word "Lucifer" which only appears in Isaiah (this clearly illustrates the fraud of Mormonism).

DISCLAIMER:
Citation of Hebrew scripture and sources in articles or analyses is not in any way an acceptance, approval or validation of the Jewish religion, its works or scriptures. The Hebrew bible, like the Christian New Testament, is fictitious; From a 6-day creation of the universe; a cunning, walking, talking snake; big fish tales; world flood and an "Invisible Man in the Sky" ― it is all fiction, a bold sham perpetrated on mankind.

Mormon scripture citations:
1. There are at least five verses in the Book of Mormon, chapter 2 Nephi, which state the author is providing the "words of Isaiah." (2 Nephi 6:4 & 5, 11:2 & 8 and 12:1)
2. 2 Nephi 24:12: How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! Art thou cut down to the ground, which did weaken the nations!
3. D&C 76: 25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,

26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.

27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!

28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ—


LUCIFER: A PROBLEM FOR CHRISTIANITY

 

[KingJ]

Jesus is never called GOD THE SON. And I really should not have to walk you through the verses you quoted to explain just what they are saying. I have no problem believing Jesus is God, only that God the Father is greater!

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 9:6 is a key verse on grasping Jesus being the Son of God and yet God. It explains that Jesus was God the Son, God in flesh. This is why the Jews wanted to kill Jesus. When He called / was called the Messiah, the Son of God, they knew from prophecy that He was in essence calling Himself / being called, God almighty. John 5:18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him, not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

If Jesus knew they believed / interpreted things as they did and He disagreed with them, as you are. He would say ''hold on dear folks, I agree with you, please don't crucify me'. He did not say that.

IE When any of us demote Jesus to any position under God, we are aligning ourselves with the belief the Jews who crucified Him had.

 

[Dave M]

Yeap the bible teaches only God is worshiped and we all know the wise men came at Jesus birth to worship him.

 

[Curtis]

Greetings,

the following might be of interest in this discussion?


Bless you all ....><>

--------------------------
LUCIFER: A PROBLEM FOR CHRISTIANITY
Author Unknown

The word "Lucifer" in Isaiah 14:12 presents a minor problem to mainstream Christianity. It becomes a much larger problem to Bible literalists, and becomes a huge obstacle for the claims of Mormonism. John J. Robinson in A Pilgrim's Path, pp. 47-48 explains:

"Lucifer makes his appearance in the fourteenth chapter of the Old Testament book of Isaiah, at the twelfth verse, and nowhere else: ‘How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!’"

The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language? To find the answer, I consulted a scholar at the library of the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati. What Hebrew name, I asked, was Satan given in this chapter of Isaiah, which describes the angel who fell to become the ruler of hell?

The answer was a surprise. In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer."

Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or “bearer, of light." In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court (much as his personal splendor earned for King Louis XIV of France the appellation, "The Sun King").

The scholars authorized by King James I to translate the Bible into then current English did not use the original Hebrew texts, but used versions translated largely by St. Jerome in the fourth century. Jerome had mistranslated the Hebraic metaphor, "Day star, son of the Dawn," as "Lucifer," and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place. Lucifer the morning star became a disobedient angel, cast out of heaven to rule eternally in hell. Theologians, writers, and poets interwove the myth with the doctrine of the Fall, and in Christian tradition Lucifer is now the same as Satan, the Devil, and, ironically, the Prince of Darkness.

So "Lucifer" is nothing more than an ancient Latin name for the morning star, the bringer of light. That can be confusing for Christians who identify Christ himself as the morning star, a term used as a central theme in many Christian sermons. Jesus refers to himself as the morning star in Revelation 22:16: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

And so there are those who do not read beyond the King James Version of the Bible, who say “Lucifer is Satan: so says the Word of God."

Henry Neufeld (a Christian who comments on Biblical sticky issues) went on to say,

"This passage is often related to Satan, and a similar thought is expressed in Luke 10:18 by Jesus that was not its first meaning. Its primary meaning is given in Isaiah 14:4 which says that when Israel is restored they will "take up this taunt against the king of Babylon . . ." Verse 12 is a part of this taunt song. This passage refers first to the fall of that earthly king...

How does the confusion in translating this verse arise? The Hebrew of this passage reads: "heleyl, ben shachar" which can be literally translated "shining one, son of dawn." This phrase means, again literally, the planet Venus when it appears as a morning star. In the Septuagint, a 3rd century BCE translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek, it is translated as "heosphoros" which also means Venus as a morning star.

How did the translation "lucifer" arise? This word comes from Jerome's Latin Vulgate. Was Jerome in error? Not at all. In Latin at the time, "lucifer" actually meant Venus as a morning star. Isaiah is using this metaphor for a bright light, though not the greatest light to illustrate the apparent power of the Babylonian king which then faded." Therefore, Lucifer wasn't equated with Satan until after Jerome. Jerome wasn't in error. Later Christians (and Mormons) were in equating "Lucifer" with "Satan".

So why is this problem to Christians? Christians now generally believe that Satan (or the Devil/Lucifer) is a “being” who has always existed. Therefore, they also think that the Jews of the Old Testament believed in this creature. The Isaiah scripture is used as proof (and has been used as such for hundreds of years now). As Elaine Pagels explains, the Christian concept of Satan (Devil/Lucifer) has evolved over the years and the early bible writers didn't believe in or teach such a doctrine.

The irony for those who believe that "Lucifer" refers to Satan (Devil/Lucifer) is that the same title ('morning star' or 'light-bearer') is used to refer to Jesus, in 2 Peter 1:19, where the Greek text has exactly the same term: 'phos-phoros' 'light-bearer.' This is also the term used for Jesus in Revelation 22:16.

So why is Lucifer a far bigger problem to Mormons? Mormons claim that an ancient record (the Book of Mormon) was written beginning in about 600 BCE, and the author in 600 BCE supposedly copied Isaiah1 in Isaiah's original words.2 When Joseph Smith pretended to translate the supposed 'ancient record', he included the Lucifer verse in the Book of Mormon. Obviously he wasn't copying what Isaiah wrote. He was copying the King James Version of the Bible. Another book of Mormon scripture, the Doctrine & Covenants, furthers this problem in 76:26 3 when it affirms the false Christian doctrine that "Lucifer" means Satan. This incorrect doctrine also spread into a third set of Mormon scriptures, the Pearl of Great Price, which describes a war in heaven based, in part, on Joseph Smith's incorrect interpretation of the word "Lucifer" which only appears in Isaiah (this clearly illustrates the fraud of Mormonism).

DISCLAIMER:
Citation of Hebrew scripture and sources in articles or analyses is not in any way an acceptance, approval or validation of the Jewish religion, its works or scriptures. The Hebrew bible, like the Christian New Testament, is fictitious; From a 6-day creation of the universe; a cunning, walking, talking snake; big fish tales; world flood and an "Invisible Man in the Sky" ― it is all fiction, a bold sham perpetrated on mankind.

Mormon scripture citations:
1. There are at least five verses in the Book of Mormon, chapter 2 Nephi, which state the author is providing the "words of Isaiah." (2 Nephi 6:4 & 5, 11:2 & 8 and 12:1)
2. 2 Nephi 24:12: How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! Art thou cut down to the ground, which did weaken the nations!
3. D&C 76: 25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,

26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.

27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!

28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ—


LUCIFER: A PROBLEM FOR CHRISTIANITY

Twenty-one References to Lucifer
1. You seal up the sum (pattern as in Eze_43:10); that is, You are the finished pattern (Eze_28:12).
2. You are full of wisdom and perfect in beauty (Eze_28:12, Eze_28:17).
3. You have been in Eden the garden of God.
4. Every precious stone was your covering when you were in Eden.
5. You were created (not born).
6. You are the anointed cherub (angel) that covers (protects or overshadows, Eze_28:14).
7. I have set you so.
8. You were upon the holy mountain of God.
9. You have walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
10. You were perfect in your ways (the laws I required you to walk in) from the day that you were created, till iniquity was found in you (Eze_28:15).
11. You have sinned by the multitude of your merchandise (traffic). I will cast you out of the mountain of God.
12. I will destroy you, O covering cherub (angel), from the midst of the stones of fire.
13. Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty (Eze_28:17).
14. You have corrupted your wisdom by reason of your brightness (splendor, beauty).
15. I will cast you to the ground (Eze_28:17; Luk_10:18; Isa_14:12-14).
16. I will lay you before kings (Eze_28:17; Mat_25:41; Rev_20:10).
17. You have defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your traffic (Eze_28:18).
18. I will bring a fire from the midst of you that will devour you (Eze_28:18; Mat_25:41; Rev_20:10).
19. I will bring you down like ashes (Eze_28:18).
20. All among the people that know you will be astonished (Eze_28:19).
21. You will be a terror and never be loosed anymore to be among men to exalt yourself and oppose God.
It is true that a few of these statements could also refer to the earthly king of Tyre, but most of them (points 3-12, for instance) could never apply to a human being. Recognizing that the law of double reference applies to this passage, we can say that Lucifer is the only person in Scripture who could possibly fulfill all the statements here; so he must be the person referred to and fitting the supernatural elements. In view of this we can then say that we have here another of many scriptures revealing the origin of Satan, his position before his fall as ruler of the pre-Adamite world, the cause of his fall, and other interesting facts about him and the past, before Adam. See The Pre-Adamite World..
c [sum] Hebrew: tokniyth (H8508), pattern. Only here and in Eze_43:10 where it refers to the pattern of the millennial temple.
d [full of wisdom] This was and still is true of Lucifer in a special sense which could not be true of any earthly king of Tyre.
e [perfect in beauty] Lucifer was perfect in beauty, which could never be said of any fallen man. It was the cause of his pride and fall (1Ti_3:6).

 

[Curtis]

We are always responsible for sin,

You are right we are always responsible for our own sin. Why? Because every man is tempted when he drawn away by his own lust, not the devils lust or anybody else. Certainly the Devil will entice men to do what ever their sinful strong desire is.

 

[B-A-C]

I personally believe Isiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 are allegorical passages about Satan.

Ezek 28:12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

I think there was actually a person who was the king of Tyre, and I think God had a message for him.

Ezek 28:13; "You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared.

I think it's very unlikely this person Ezekiel was sent to, was actually in the garden of Eden (but Satan was)

Ezek 28:14; "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.

I also doubt this "king of tyre" was a cherub (angel) that was on the holy mountain of God.

Ezek 28:15; "You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.
Ezek 28:16; "By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.

At one time, Satan was "blameless". This cherub (angel) was cast as profane from the mountain of God.
Jesus said...

Luke 10:18 And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.

Ezek 28:17 "Your heart was puffed up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I put you before kings, That they may see you.

Ezekiel says he was cast to the ground. Aren't all humans already on the ground?

Some say Satan was an arch-angel, but it doesn't say this anywhere in the Bible.

I also think there was a king of Baylon (there were many, but specifically one in the time of Isaiah)

Isa 14:4; that you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon, and say, "How the oppressor has ceased, And how fury has ceased!

The passage below could be taken two ways... a king has become "weak like us". Or it could be an angel
who has given in to sin, and became like us.

Isa 14:9 "Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come; It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
Isa 14:10 "They will all respond and say to you, 'Even you have been made weak as we, You have become like us.
Isa 14:11 'Your pomp and the music of your harps Have been brought down to Sheol; Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you And worms are your covering.'

King James says "Lucifer"

Isa 14:12; "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!
Isa 14:13; "But you said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north.
Isa 14:14; 'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.'

Was Satan's sin that he wanted to be like God? Perhaps the king of Tyre was the same way.

Isa 14:15; "Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, To the recesses of the pit.

This king of Tyre will be thrown down to "the pit". So will Satan be.

Rev 20:2; And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev 20:3; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

I believe one day we will look at Satan and say "this is the guy who everyone was afraid of?"

Isa 14:16; "Those who see you will gaze at you, They will ponder over you, saying, 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms,
Isa 14:17; Who made the world like a wilderness And overthrew its cities, Who did not allow his prisoners to go home?'

The king of Tyre did not allow his prisoners to go home. Neither did Satan.

Isa 61:1; The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners;
(also see Luke 4:18; - Jesus is quoting this )

So when did Jesus set the captives free? Those who were in Abraham's Bosom.

Eph 4:8; Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
Eph 4:9; (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10; He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)

I think Satan is much more a problem for Judaism than he is for Christianity.

 

[Curtis]

We can tempt ourselves, but you neglect the fact that there are other factors involved.

You are really taking this too far...

Jesus was tempted by the devil.

Our minds are blinded by Satan, he does influence our thinking, he triggers our lust!

A born again believer is not blinded by the devil, only unbelievers are blinded. That veil that separates some one from knowing the things of God are "taken away" in the new birth......

2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

 

[B-A-C]

Apologies @Curtis, it seems we were posting at the same time , but mostly saying the same thing.

 

[Curtis]

I don't think you understand the trinity doctrine,

I doubt you understand the trinity because if you did, you would know Jesus is God!

saying that Jesus is exalted to the throne of God in heaven, NOT that "Jesus is God!" Only that Jesus has ascended to the throne of God and is therefore above the angels with all authority.

In Christianity we do NOT try and make the Word of God to be incorrect, we simply believes what it says! If the Word of God is not to your liking then you need to change your mind, and thinking, not try and to discredit it.

 

[BLACKSHEEP]

I doubt you understand the trinity because if you did, you would know Jesus is God!

More than once I said Jesus was God! Did you forget? More than once I said that God is greater than Jesus because "Jesus said so!"

I understand the trinity quite well. It's the main reason why I backed out of a ministerial test in 1974. I know its teachings and the bible well enough to debate anybody on the topic.

You do know that the Trinity doctrine has pagan origins in the Catholic Church because of Constantine, right?

You do know that the Trinity doctrine teaches that Jesus was 100% MAN AND 100% GOD, RIGHT?

You do know that the Trinity doctrine teaches that God, Jesus, and the nameless holy spirit who IS NOT found in or around the Throne of God are all co-equal, right?

Jesus said,

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

 

[BLACKSHEEP]

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 9:6 is a key verse on grasping Jesus being the Son of God and yet God. It explains that Jesus was God the Son, God in flesh. This is why the Jews wanted to kill Jesus. When He called / was called the Messiah, the Son of God, they knew from prophecy that He was in essence calling Himself / being called, God almighty. John 5:18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him, not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

If Jesus knew they believed / interpreted things as they did and He disagreed with them, as you are. He would say ''hold on dear folks, I agree with you, please don't crucify me'. He did not say that.

IE When any of us demote Jesus to any position under God, we are aligning ourselves with the belief the Jews who crucified Him had.

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

That's right. Jesus is called Mighty God. The Father is called Almighty God or God almighty.

John 5:18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him, not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

The verse says that the Jews believed Jesus was equal to God because Jesus said God was his Father. That's not an inspired claim that Jesus is God, only that it was the perception of the Jews that Jesus was claiming to be God because he claimed God was his Father.

Philippians 2:6 is better to explain.

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
The word form is the word morphē which indicates equal in glory and external appearance. Not power and authority.

 

[KingJ]

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

That's right. Jesus is called Mighty God. The Father is called Almighty God or God almighty.

You are grabbing a straw. The KJV says ''the mighty God''. Then, every version says ''everlasting Father''.

John 5:18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him, not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

The verse says that the Jews believed Jesus was equal to God because Jesus said God was his Father. That's not an inspired claim that Jesus is God, only that it was the perception of the Jews that Jesus was claiming to be God because he claimed God was his Father.

Equal = equal.

Philippians 2:6 is better to explain.

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
The word form is the word morphē which indicates equal in glory and external appearance. Not power and authority

We are not querying the word 'form'. We know Jesus was God in flesh.

You need to try and grasp the reason the devil wants us to believe Jesus is not God.

God is love 1 John 4:8. The greatest act of love is to lay your life down John 15:13. The cross is evidence of God's love for us.

If Jesus is not God, then God got some unlucky fella to pay the price for our sins. God is not quite the epitome of love. God expects us to lay our lives down for Him, but He can't do the same for us. This unlucky fella, did not even have a say in the matter. He just had to obey. God kind of sounds demented. This plan of mankind involved picking some random fella to be a human sacrifice. Kind of like the Aztecs sacrifices or those with Baphomet. IE Satanism. IE If Jesus is not God, Christianity has sacrificial routes comparable to Satanism. Please try understand this. You are espousing something wicked, innocently. I hope its innocent.

 

[BLACKSHEEP]

You are grabbing a straw. The KJV says ''the mighty God''. Then, every version says ''everlasting Father''.

Equal = equal.

We are not querying the word 'form'. We know Jesus was God in flesh.

You need to try and grasp the reason the devil wants us to believe Jesus is not God.

God is love 1 John 4:8. The greatest act of love is to lay your life down John 15:13. The cross is evidence of God's love for us.

If Jesus is not God, then God got some unlucky fella to pay the price for our sins. God is not quite the epitome of love. God expects us to lay our lives down for Him, but He can't do the same for us. This unlucky fella, did not even have a say in the matter. He just had to obey. God kind of sounds demented. This plan of mankind involved picking some random fella to be a human sacrifice. Kind of like the Aztecs sacrifices or those with Baphomet. IE Satanism. IE If Jesus is not God, Christianity has sacrificial routes comparable to Satanism. Please try understand this. You are espousing something wicked, innocently. I hope its innocent.

I think you guys just keep on forgetting.

I have said several times Jesus is God! ONLY that God is GREATER!

You are grabbing a straw. The KJV says ''the mighty God''. Then, every version says ''everlasting Father''.

No, I'm seeking truth.

The mighty God...Mighty God...doesn't matter! The verse doesn't say ALMIGHTY GOD!

The interlinear words this passage completely different that what you would suspect.

The word for God is el' which is the same word that describes Nebuchadnezzar.

el...
god, god-like one, mighty one, mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes, angels, god, false god, (demons, imaginations)God, the one true God, Jehovah mighty things in nature, strength, power.

The interlinear...

...that the boy he is born to us son he is given to us and he shall become the chieftainship on shoulder blade of him and he shall name of him one marvellous one counselling El masterful Father of future chief of well being.

 

[Br. Bear]

I think you guys just keep on forgetting.

I have said several times Jesus is God! ONLY that God is GREATER!

No, I'm seeking truth.

The mighty God...Mighty God...doesn't matter! The verse doesn't say ALMIGHTY GOD!

The interlinear words this passage completely different that what you would suspect.

The word for God is el' which is the same word that describes Nebuchadnezzar.

el...
god, god-like one, mighty one, mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes, angels, god, false god, (demons, imaginations)God, the one true God, Jehovah mighty things in nature, strength, power.

The interlinear...

...that the boy he is born to us son he is given to us and he shall become the chieftainship on shoulder blade of him and he shall name of him one marvelous one counseling El masterful Farther of future chief of well being.

Thanks for sharing Jim.

There are quite a few odd bits we can get caught up about and often, with closer inspection, we discover that we're barking up the wrong tree.
For example, the early Bibles were translated from a Greek translation of the Hebrew. And that into olde English. Trouble is today, we have so many academic camps and some quite opposing each other, that although we have available more correct translation of the original, we are so messed up and dysfunctional that we then produce dodgy new translations.

How we must remember that if we love.. as per His commandments, we are covering the ground by our actions not by our theology.

I appreciate your input and attempt to communicate with us all, Jim.

In that last line is that meant to read 'Father' instead of 'Farther'? I can edit it for you if so.


Bless you ....><>

 

[KingJ]

I think you guys just keep on forgetting.

I have said several times Jesus is God! ONLY that God is GREATER!

No, I'm seeking truth.

That literally makes no sense as scripture is crystal clear that there is only one God.

1 Deut 4:35 Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

The mighty God...Mighty God...doesn't matter! The verse doesn't say ALMIGHTY GOD!

If you are coming unstuck with mighty vs almighty, just grasp 'everlasting Father'.

 

[BLACKSHEEP]

Thanks for sharing Jim.

There are quite a few odd bits we can get caught up about and often, with closer inspection, we discover that we're barking up the wrong tree.
For example, the early Bibles were translated from a Greek translation of the Hebrew. And that into olde English. Trouble is today, we have so many academic camps and some quite opposing each other, that although we have available more correct translation of the original, we are so messed up and dysfunctional that we then produce dodgy new translations.

How we must remember that if we love.. as per His commandments, we are covering the ground by our actions not by our theology.

I appreciate your input and attempt to communicate with us all, Jim.

In that last line is that meant to read 'Father' instead of 'Farther'? I can edit it for you if so.


Bless you ....><>

Yes please edit it for me. I typed it from scriptureforall which uses the Textus Receptus on the NT, and the Westminster Leningrad Codex with vowels on the OT.

Online Hebrew Interlinear Bible

Online Greek Interlinear Bible

Thank you for the compliment. I've always put time and effort in my studies and replies. I have only one desire in doing so and that is knowing and sharing the truth. I consider all viewpoints and do my best to explain how I arrive at my conclusions.

 

[BLACKSHEEP]

That literally makes no sense as scripture is crystal clear that there is only one God.

1 Deut 4:35 Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

If you are coming unstuck with mighty vs almighty, just grasp 'everlasting Father'.

What makes you think that because I said Jesus is God and he said his Father is greater, that means that there's not one God? You're implying there are two Gods! That's a typical trinitarian tactic. Some say I believe in a different Jesus. Some say like you allude to there being two different God's. I wish you guys would get things right.
Did Jesus makes sense when he said,

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

There are several scriptures that show Jesus is subordinate to the Father.

The Trinity is a terribly fabricated and contradictory doctrine.

Triads of gods appeared in all the ancient cultures of Sumer, Babylonia, Egypt, India, Greece and finally Rome.

Do you have any idea how the Trinity developed and why the Protestants accepted it?

 

[BLACKSHEEP]

If you are coming unstuck with mighty vs almighty, just grasp 'everlasting Father'.

I have grasped it, and so has David Guzick who's a Trinitarian...

The Messiah is the Everlasting Father: The idea in these Hebrew words is that Jesus is the source or author of all eternity, that He is the Creator Himself. It does not mean that Jesus Himself is the Person of the Father in the Trinity.

 

[Curtis]

I have grasped it, and so has David Guzick who's a Trinitarian...

The Messiah is the Everlasting Father: The idea in these Hebrew words is that Jesus is the source or author of all eternity, that He is the Creator Himself. It does not mean that Jesus Himself is the Person of the Father in the Trinity.

Jesus is NOT God the Father, neither is the Father Jesus. The holy Spirit is NOT the Father or Jesus, yet they are one God. If you ever get to see God, you will see Jesus because Jesus is God's body, and in Jesus lives all the fullness of the Godhead "bodily" (Father,Son,Holy Spirit)

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

No one can see God without seeing Jesus, as Jesus himself said.....

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?