The great apostacy.

[Rhema]

Question: Did/Does God love (unsaved) sinners?

(You might be surprised at my answer.)
.

Does God love sinners ?? No. He loves what He can transform sinners into - the Righteous of the Lord.

Rhema

If God loved sinners, there would be no reason for them to change (to be changed), now would there be. God does not love sinners as they are, He loves what He can make them into.

Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.​

(Matthew 12:33 KJV)​

 

[Dave M]

Does God love sinners ?

this question has puzzled me for a long time, I still am not clear on it.

we have scripture that clearly says God hates sinners, evil doers and wicked I would think are sinners, so it clearly says God hates them.

Psalm 5:5
The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers.

Psalm 11:5
The Lord tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence.

But Jesus died for all of us, and loved us before we even knew him

1 John 4:19
We love because he first loved us.

NOW I had a ah ah moment, God hates the un - repenting sinner

Because Jesus died for everyone, yet not everyone excepts Jesus.

 

[B-A-C]

Scripture clearly states that one is judged by the words of one's own judgment.

That is "one" of the things we will be judged for, yes. But scripture clearly states we will be judged for other things as well.
Here are a few verses, the word judgment is actually in the New Testament over 70 times, I won't paste them all here.

John 5:28; “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Matt 10:13; “If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace.
Matt 10:14; “Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.
Matt 10:15; “Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.

Matt 12:41; The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.

Matt 25:31; “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
Matt 25:32; “All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
Matt 25:33; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

John 5:24; “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Rom 2:2; And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. ((Things listed in the last half of Romans 1)

Rom 2:5; because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

 

[B-A-C]

If God loved sinners, there would be no reason for them to change (to be changed), now would there be. God does not love sinners as they are, He loves what He can make them into.

Some people believe the love of God is salvation of God.

Rom 8:38; For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39; nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Calvinists like to use this passage to prove that you can't lose salvation, because nothing can separate us from the love of God.
But the love of God is NOT the salvation of God. As several verses posted above prove, God loves even sinners.
Just because He loves you, doesn't mean you are saved.

Rom 5:6; For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7; For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
Rom 5:8; But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

This verse (among others, like John 3:16; ) says God loved us, even while we were sinners (unsaved, ungodly).

John 3:16; says .. "for God so loved the world".. that He sent his only Son (to die for us, I would think you would to love someone quite a bit to send your only son to die for them)
No one was saved before Jesus died, so apparently God "so loved the world" before anyone was saved.

 

[B-A-C]

2Sam 12:24; and Neh 13:26; say that God loved Solomon.
1 Kings 3:3; even says Solomon loved God.

... and yet...

Neh 13:26; and 1 Kings 11:4-6; say that the end of his life, he turned away from God to follow other gods.
I suppose it's possible that God quit loving Solomon once this happened, but apparently He loved Solomon at least for a while.

 

[Bethel]

Do you see any contradiction in this? I can't lose my salvation, but I can lose my salvation (if I don't believe Jesus can keep me saved). Legalism or not... grace or not... the point is, you have fallen away. You have lost your salvation.

Its not in the believing that Jesus keeps you saved..........its the fact that Jesus Himself is your salvation.., and do you have Him in you or not.

Jesus is Salvation.
Jesus is Grace
Jesus is the Blood Atonement
Jesus is redemption.

Salvation is not a "what i do".

Salvation is Jesus Himself who is the LIFE and the Resurrection.

So, if you have JESUS in you, then you have Salvation.
If you have Jesus IN You, "Christ in you the hope of Glory".....which is the same thing as being ""IN CHRIST and ONE with God"..........then you have God's Salvation.

That is to have become a Son of God.
There is no "losing" that, there is only to be aware of it, or to be confused by it, and if one is confused, then they will be found sinning and confessing and trying not to lose their salvation.

PAUL teaches that This person is "fallen from Grace". "Bewitched"...> and "in the Flesh".... That he describes throughout Galatians.

And this epidemic is the "final apostasy" that i previously explained.

So, when you meet a person who wants to try to prove that you can lose your salvation, you are dealing with a final apostate.

 

[Waggles]

So, when you meet a person who wants to try to prove that you can lose your salvation, you are dealing with a final apostate.

NO - you are dealing with a Christian who understands the relationship between a disciple and their God of salvation.
God is true and ever faithful but disciples are not necessarily so.
Christians can and do lose their first love. Christians can and do give up their faithfulness. Christians can and do backslide.
Christians can and do quench the Spirit.

 

[Dave M]

Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”



I think we all agree our salvation is a gift from God and we can not earn it thus it being grace.

I think we all agree that we are all sinners and therefore need grace

HOWEVER I think wear the difference lies is in how we see grace being a gift,

Here is the two ways I think we are looking at it.
1. Some think they can never loose it because its a gift from God, but it seems to me , is that you have a choice to throw the gift out the car window (sort of speak) if you receive the gift, not following the instuctions of the gift, having no proof of the power of the gift in ones life would mean you have either lost the gift or thrown the gift away.

2. Here is the way I think about it, and maybe others do. God gives grace to sinners, and as a sinner I am so thankful I hold on to that gift with everything I have, not wishing to loose it. I prepare by being obiedent to his word on how to take care of this gift, I do not want this gift too vanish. I dont want this gift to be lost.

This gift of grace comes with instructions, the word of God, with out his grace you can not even understand the spiritual nature of the word of God. So if you choose to no obey the instuctions attached with this wonderful gift from God there seems to be no longer a sacrafice for you.

Your life should exhibit these fruits from the word of God if you have truly received Grace, you should have proof in your life of Gods grace. Just like you will have proof in your life if you do not have Gods grace.

 

[Dave M]

So, when you meet a person who wants to try to prove that you can lose your salvation, you are dealing with a final apostate.

how about throwing your salvation out the window? Does Jesus want anyone in the kingdom who does not want to be there? How do we show Jesus we want to be there?? by the way we live our lives. How do we live our lives? by Jesus word of GOD.

Salvation is not a "what i do".

Salvation is Jesus Himself who is the LIFE and the Resurrection.

What I do does not save you, it is evidence you are saved. Or evidence you are not saved.

 

[B-A-C]

Its not in the believing that Jesus keeps you saved..........its the fact that Jesus Himself is your salvation.., and do you have Him in you or not.

I agree, without Jesus.. no salvation.

Do you have Him in you or not? It doesn't matter.
God told the Jews wandering thru the wilderness I will never leave you or forsake you. He was with them every day for 40 years,
but none of the generation that left Egypt (including Moses) made it to the promised land.
Many of them fell because of worshiping a golden calf.

Jesus was with Judas Iscariot of three years. In the end it didn't matter.

John 15:4; Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
John 15:5; I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
John 15:6; “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
John 15:7; “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

It's up to you whether you want to abide (remain) in Jesus or not.

John 14:23; Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
John 14:24; “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

If you keep His "word" Jesus will come to you and make His abode in you. But what if you don't keep His word?
If you don't keep His word, you don't belong to Him.

It's up to you whether Jesus abides in you or not.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

John 14:23; Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
John 14:24; “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

"... and My Father will love him"

"... We will come to him and make Our abode with him."

"... the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me."

do we miss something when we read? [or hear?]

Much is said about what we do or don't do and rightly so because much is written about what we do and what we don't do..... but....

I have yet to meet a man who is perfect in every way in regards to the do's and don't's , a man who never slips even a little.
In all honesty, we all have missed the mark all too often... once is enough.

So what hope is there?

Perhaps we all too often overlook seeing through the Father's eyes?

When men come before Him, what does He look for [He doesn't have to look as He already knows - but you get the picture]?

Our relationship must be in faith regarding His Son. Nothing more... nothing less. We can not add to the 'value' or 'weight' of His Son and we dare not take anything away [not that we can - but we can think and do with disdain and ill respect and disregard for the Son]

What matters is if we believe in the Son of God. Not merely the Son, but the Son of GOD. He sent Him. The Son was obedient unto death. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

the following might give a picture for our limited understanding....

When we consider the Blood shed for our sins, and not ours only but for the sins of the world... and when we consider the value of the Blood of the only begotten of the Father..... the priceless Lamb of God, do we see the eternally uncountable cost paid for us, wretched sinners who were enemies of God?

Those who truly believe that God sent forth His Son and put their trust in His Salvation are counted worthy to God of that Salvation.
From the moment we believe, do we ever make mistakes in our lives? Honestly.... yes. What does God look to? Our track record?

If that were the case, what is the 'pass grade'? What 'landmark' does God go by? How many points before you are out?

According to what we do doctrine, we have all missed the boat, end of story.... BUT... because of His great [faithful - not adulterous] love, He is steadfast... why? Because of His Son.
Would he short change His Son?

We might [and all too often do] stray but God does never stray from His Word.

It is only in His promise that we have hope. We believe what He said... because it is believable? or because He has said it.

Because of His faithfulness should we therefore sin? God forbid.. but if we do, we have an advocate.... Who is His Son.

If it was ever up to us, Jesus died in vain. Remember that.

Yes, we must believe and God has provided all 'ingredients' for our believing that we have no excuse for not believing. Yes, we have to trust in Him... as much today as when we were first saved.

For me, i realize more each day how much i NEED His mercy and Grace .. that which He has provided in and through His beloved Son, in Whom He is well pleased.

Jesus said that no man comes to the Father but by Him [Jesus] and that He [Jesus] is the Door, The Way and the Life.

We have so many verses and passages that tell us about Jesus Christ being the only way to the Father... and we have plenty to let all know that it is to the Father we must belong.
Why,? Because he is a faithful Son.... all we need to remember is, despite any shortcomings, are we?

Do we have excuses for sinning? No. And we shouldn't sin. But from what i red and see, God has accounted for our weakness and frailty before we hear of His Son and has provided for us if we will believe.

Should we forget about loving one another? Definitely not... but in loving, how are we to do it? We must look to Jesus and believe what He told us about love and let our believing bear fruit, fit for the Kingdom. We can... for God has made it possible for us to do... do we trust Him?

You see, it is about our trusting Him to be true, not about trusting if we are or not. The adversary is there to divert us from faith in the Blood of the Son. The how and when and what ... the method of 'messing up' is not the aim of the adversary... it is to have us stop trusting in the unspeakable riches of His Grace toward all who believe.

We have plenty of opportunity to 'graduate' and the trials of our faith are ever coming.. to bring us forth as pure for Him... for His Son.

If you are/were already perfect, why trials?

Why do we persevere? Because we believe in Him Who loved us and our hearts and minds are betrothed to Him.....

Should we rely on our perfection to get us in? Don't be a fool!

we rely on His perfection... and it is His perfection working in us that we can and should delight in.

One thing i have learnt lot about is forgiveness [i m still learning!!!!] and how might i learn but by ever being shown His forgiveness... all made possible through the Son....

do we love Him in our believing? He knows them that do.... and it is that love He looks to... not our failings along the way.

If we preach about what and how much we should do to enter, we preach against the Son... and if we preach against the Son. we dishonor Him... and He Who sent Him.


Bless you ....><>

..."If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him,"

 

[Born Again 2004]

You can Apostate things too much, i.e., Paul was an Apostate....Peter was an Apodtate.
By "Man's " understanding, then, we all
are Apostates at one time or Another.
According to the Bible you can Blasphemy God, but if you Blasphemy the Holy Spirit, you will not be saved?
Did these Saints actually Blasphemy the Holy Siprit...no one knows, that is only known by God, AND NOT BY MAN!!!