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The great apostacy.

Loyal
2Thes 2:1; Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2Thes 2:2; that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2Thes 2:3; Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Thes 2:4; who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
2Thes 2:5; Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
2Thes 2:6; And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
2Thes 2:7; For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
2Thes 2:8; Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
2Thes 2:9; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
2Thes 2:10; and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
2Thes 2:11; For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
2Thes 2:12; in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

This passage has been discussed a few times here on TalkJesus.
Verse 1 says, this is in regard to the coming of the Lord, ( and our gathering together with Him )
This is of course talking about when Jesus returns. The 2nd coming. There are some preterists who believe much of this has already happened, but they are deceived.
Some even say Jesus already came back the 2nd time, and the next time will be the third time. But they are wrong also, Jesus never left the Earth and came back in the Bible anywhere.

Verse 2 is similar to 2Tim 2:18;
2Tim 2:18; men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.
Jesus has not already returned, and the resurrection has not taken place yet.

Verse 3 says ... "let no one deceive you". And yet, it seems many are deceived about this. It says Jesus won't return until the great apostasy happens. He won't return until the man of lawlessness is revealed (the son of perdition).
This is taken by most scholars to be the beast in Revelation. But no matter who it is, Jesus won't return until the identity of this man is known. Now I've heard a lot of theories about who the man of lawlessness is. It seems very few
people agree on who this might be. But I believe that when he is revealed, the whole church will know who he is. There won't be a lot of disagreement about it.

Verse 4 says he wants to be worshipped, to make himself god. It says he will take the seat in the temple of God and try to make himself out to be god.
Some preterists will say this was Nero is 70 AD. However there is no record of evidence that Nero ever went to Jerusalem. Also there is contention about when 2Thessalonians was written, some say as early at 50AD, but many say
as late as 80 AD, (in which case the destruction of Jerusalem would have already happened). It is primarily this verse that cause many scholars to say, the temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem (so that the man of lawlessness can
set up his throne there). Also the other problem with this train of thought is... there wasn't a great apostasy or falling away of believers during the persecution of 70AD. In fact the church thrived and grew during this time.

Verses 6 and 7 are probably the most controversial verse in the whole passage. It talks about whatever is restraining the man of lawlessness. Verse 7 says whatever this is, it will be taken "out of the way" so the man of lawlessness can be revealed.
Some commentaries say this is the Holy Spirit, but I don't think so. People will be saved during the tribulation. ( Rev 7:14; ) There are a couple of possibilities here, the church is still here during this time... or the church was already raptured and these
are new converts that got saved after the rapture. I don't really want this to turn into the pre-trib/post-trib thread. Start another thread if you wish to debate this. But either way can anyone get saved without the Holy Spirit?
Can people keep from being deceived without the Holy Spirit? Rev 20:4; says some will be beheaded during the tribulation, will people have enough conviction to be beheaded for their faith without the Holy Spirit? For all these reasons I tend
to doubt the Holy Spirit will be removed.

But it's verse 3 I want to focus on here. None of these things will happen... unless the great apostasy happens first.

So what is apostasy? Websters defines it as such. Definition of APOSTASY

Definition of apostasy
1 : an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection

Apostasy is often called "a falling away". An abandonment of a previous belief. Refusing to continue to follow a previously held conviction.
Now some Calvinists will say these people were never saved in the first place. But the Bible doesn't say that. It says they will "fall away" from a previously held belief or conviction.
It isn't that they never believed. Rather it's they believed once, but no longer do.

This is much like Luke 8:13;
Luke 8:13; “Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

They believe "for a while"... and then they "fall away". It isn't that they never believed.

Now this verse if often taken to mean "the church as a whole". I suppose that could be true. But yet the church is made up of individual believers. So at some point, it's still an individual thing.
In the last 20 years, we now have some churches that believe homosexuality, and transgenderism is OK with God.
In the last 20 years, we now have some churches that no longer preach repentance or that some people will go to hell.
There are some churches that preach moral law no longer matters, and you can sin all you want and God is OK with it.
I say the last 20 years, but the "falling away" has been going on longer than that. Indeed, verse 7 above says the mystery of lawlessness is already at work.. Even while Paul was writing this 2,000 years ago.

Verse 10 says will be deceived because they "didn't receive the love of the truth"... so as to be saved. There are many so called Christians and churches today ( some are even here on TalkJesus ) that don't love the truth.
They spread generalizations, half truths, half scriptures, and try to say God has changed, the rules have changed, and that the truth isn't really that important.
We have some here on TalkJesus who believe fornication, adultery, homosexuality, nudity, abstract drug use, and idolatry are Ok with God. They will even argue with you about these things.

Verse 11 may be one of the most frightening verses in the Bible... you don't want to receive the truth? Fine, God Himself will send a deluding influence ( some Bibles say spirit of delusion or deception ) to these people.
Eventually God Himself says enough is enough. You want to believe these lies and deceptions... fine, I'll make sure you do.
Who are these people? Verse 11 says it's those who did not receive the truth, and "took pleasure in wickedness".

Oh it's OK if I cheat of my wife a little, oh it's OK if I get drunk a little, oh it's OK if I live with my girlfriend/boyfriend for a while. God has grace and mercy, He is OK with it.
Beware... beware that you aren't part of the apostasy. Beware that your church isn't one of the ones falling away. Beware that God doesn't send a deluding influence upon you and you will not be able to see the truth any longer.
 
Active
So what is apostasy? Websters defines it as such. Definition of APOSTASY

Definition of apostasy
1 : an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection

Apostasy is often called "a falling away". An abandonment of a previous belief. Refusing to continue to follow a previously held conviction.
Now some Calvinists will say these people were never saved in the first place. But the Bible doesn't say that. It says they will "fall away" from a previously held belief or conviction.
It isn't that they never believed. Rather it's they believed once, but no longer do.
Given your definition, was not Calvin then an apostate to Rome ??
(Luther was.)

Rhema
 
Loyal
Given your definition, was not Calvin then an apostate to Rome ??
Yes, I suppose he would be. By the way, that isn't my definition, I copy and pasted it from websters.
I think possibly one difference would be, Luther was an RC priest. Was Calvin?
 
Active
By the way, that isn't my definition, I copy and pasted it from websters.
If it's the definition you presented for use, it's your definition - the one you wished used.

Luther was an RC priest. Was Calvin?
Calvin was a lawyer. (Go figure.) But by your definition, being clergy isn't a requirement.

At one point, Paul considered Peter to be apostate. And Paul was most certainly an apostate according to James.

Kindly,
Rhema
 
Member
At one point, Paul considered Peter to be apostate. And Paul was most certainly an apostate according to James.

Rhema
Wow. You really flew the coup on this one.

50 years and this is what you have to show for? Wow.
 
Active
2Thes 2:1; Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2Thes 2:2; that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2Thes 2:3; Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Thes 2:4; who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
2Thes 2:5; Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
2Thes 2:6; And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
2Thes 2:7; For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
2Thes 2:8; Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
2Thes 2:9; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
2Thes 2:10; and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
2Thes 2:11; For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
2Thes 2:12; in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

This passage has been discussed a few times here on TalkJesus.
Verse 1 says, this is in regard to the coming of the Lord, ( and our gathering together with Him )
This is of course talking about when Jesus returns. The 2nd coming. There are some preterists who believe much of this has already happened, but they are deceived.
Some even say Jesus already came back the 2nd time, and the next time will be the third time. But they are wrong also, Jesus never left the Earth and came back in the Bible anywhere.

Verse 2 is similar to 2Tim 2:18;
2Tim 2:18; men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.
Jesus has not already returned, and the resurrection has not taken place yet.

Verse 3 says ... "let no one deceive you". And yet, it seems many are deceived about this. It says Jesus won't return until the great apostasy happens. He won't return until the man of lawlessness is revealed (the son of perdition).
This is taken by most scholars to be the beast in Revelation. But no matter who it is, Jesus won't return until the identity of this man is known. Now I've heard a lot of theories about who the man of lawlessness is. It seems very few
people agree on who this might be. But I believe that when he is revealed, the whole church will know who he is. There won't be a lot of disagreement about it.

Verse 4 says he wants to be worshipped, to make himself god. It says he will take the seat in the temple of God and try to make himself out to be god.
Some preterists will say this was Nero is 70 AD. However there is no record of evidence that Nero ever went to Jerusalem. Also there is contention about when 2Thessalonians was written, some say as early at 50AD, but many say
as late as 80 AD, (in which case the destruction of Jerusalem would have already happened). It is primarily this verse that cause many scholars to say, the temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem (so that the man of lawlessness can
set up his throne there). Also the other problem with this train of thought is... there wasn't a great apostasy or falling away of believers during the persecution of 70AD. In fact the church thrived and grew during this time.

Verses 6 and 7 are probably the most controversial verse in the whole passage. It talks about whatever is restraining the man of lawlessness. Verse 7 says whatever this is, it will be taken "out of the way" so the man of lawlessness can be revealed.
Some commentaries say this is the Holy Spirit, but I don't think so. People will be saved during the tribulation. ( Rev 7:14; ) There are a couple of possibilities here, the church is still here during this time... or the church was already raptured and these
are new converts that got saved after the rapture. I don't really want this to turn into the pre-trib/post-trib thread. Start another thread if you wish to debate this. But either way can anyone get saved without the Holy Spirit?
Can people keep from being deceived without the Holy Spirit? Rev 20:4; says some will be beheaded during the tribulation, will people have enough conviction to be beheaded for their faith without the Holy Spirit? For all these reasons I tend
to doubt the Holy Spirit will be removed.

But it's verse 3 I want to focus on here. None of these things will happen... unless the great apostasy happens first.

So what is apostasy? Websters defines it as such. Definition of APOSTASY

Definition of apostasy
1 : an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection

Apostasy is often called "a falling away". An abandonment of a previous belief. Refusing to continue to follow a previously held conviction.
Now some Calvinists will say these people were never saved in the first place. But the Bible doesn't say that. It says they will "fall away" from a previously held belief or conviction.
It isn't that they never believed. Rather it's they believed once, but no longer do.

This is much like Luke 8:13;
Luke 8:13; “Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

They believe "for a while"... and then they "fall away". It isn't that they never believed.

Now this verse if often taken to mean "the church as a whole". I suppose that could be true. But yet the church is made up of individual believers. So at some point, it's still an individual thing.
In the last 20 years, we now have some churches that believe homosexuality, and transgenderism is OK with God.
In the last 20 years, we now have some churches that no longer preach repentance or that some people will go to hell.
There are some churches that preach moral law no longer matters, and you can sin all you want and God is OK with it.
I say the last 20 years, but the "falling away" has been going on longer than that. Indeed, verse 7 above says the mystery of lawlessness is already at work.. Even while Paul was writing this 2,000 years ago.

Verse 10 says will be deceived because they "didn't receive the love of the truth"... so as to be saved. There are many so called Christians and churches today ( some are even here on TalkJesus ) that don't love the truth.
They spread generalizations, half truths, half scriptures, and try to say God has changed, the rules have changed, and that the truth isn't really that important.
We have some here on TalkJesus who believe fornication, adultery, homosexuality, nudity, abstract drug use, and idolatry are Ok with God. They will even argue with you about these things.

Verse 11 may be one of the most frightening verses in the Bible... you don't want to receive the truth? Fine, God Himself will send a deluding influence ( some Bibles say spirit of delusion or deception ) to these people.
Eventually God Himself says enough is enough. You want to believe these lies and deceptions... fine, I'll make sure you do.
Who are these people? Verse 11 says it's those who did not receive the truth, and "took pleasure in wickedness".

Oh it's OK if I cheat of my wife a little, oh it's OK if I get drunk a little, oh it's OK if I live with my girlfriend/boyfriend for a while. God has grace and mercy, He is OK with it.
Beware... beware that you aren't part of the apostasy. Beware that your church isn't one of the ones falling away. Beware that God doesn't send a deluding influence upon you and you will not be able to see the truth any longer.
you were doing fine until you mentioned nudity. This implies that God made a terrible mistake when he created Adam and Eve. He should have covered them in fur, like a tiger or a polar bear, with there genitals tucked neatly away in there abdomen? And I guess breasts would be located somewhere behind Eves ears so no one can see them? Other than that faux pas the rest is spot on.
 
Active
Beware... beware that you aren't part of the apostasy. Beware that your church isn't one of the ones falling away. Beware that God doesn't send a deluding influence upon you and you will not be able to see the truth any longer.
Thanks @B-A-C a really good wake up call to righteousness in God.
When I witness to other mainstream Christians it is heartbreaking that most find offence in the scriptures.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God hath appeared to all men bringing salvation,
12 instructing us, that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly and righteously and godly in this present age;
13 awaiting the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify to himself a people for his possession, zealous of good works.
 
Active
you were doing fine until you mentioned nudity. This implies that God made a terrible mistake when he created Adam and Eve. He should have covered them in fur, like a tiger or a polar bear, with there genitals tucked neatly away in there abdomen? And I guess breasts would be located somewhere behind Eves ears so no one can see them? Other than that faux pas the rest is spot on.
Ah yes our resident Christian nudist here on TalkJesus.

Genesis 3:9 But the LORD God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?”
10 And he said, “I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself.”
11 He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?”

Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest [that], I am rich, and have become rich, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art the wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold refined by fire, that thou be rich; and white garments, that thou be clothed and the shame of thy nakedness be not manifested,: and eyesalve to anoint thine eyes, that thou see.

Rev 16:15 (Lo, I come as a thief. Blessed who watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.)

Habukuk 2:15 “Woe to him who makes his neighbours drink - you pour out your wrath and make them drunk, in order to gaze at their nakedness!

Isaiah 47:3 Your nakedness shall be uncovered, and your disgrace shall be seen. I will take vengeance, and I will spare no one.
 
Active
Ah yes our resident Christian nudist here on TalkJesus.

Genesis 3:9 But the LORD God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?”
10 And he said, “I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself.”
11 He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?”

Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest [that], I am rich, and have become rich, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art the wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold refined by fire, that thou be rich; and white garments, that thou be clothed and the shame of thy nakedness be not manifested,: and eyesalve to anoint thine eyes, that thou see.

Rev 16:15 (Lo, I come as a thief. Blessed who watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.)

Habukuk 2:15 “Woe to him who makes his neighbours drink - you pour out your wrath and make them drunk, in order to gaze at their nakedness!

Isaiah 47:3 Your nakedness shall be uncovered, and your disgrace shall be seen. I will take vengeance, and I will spare no one.
In the context of the culture of the times, yes, very wise to use symbolism against mankind. The bible is full of culture references, how do I know?Because the bible I have has explanations at the bottom of each page explaining the culture and traditions etc of the time the passage was written. Really helps to gains some understanding behind some scripture.
 
Active
In the context of the culture of the times, yes, very wise to use symbolism against mankind. The bible is full of culture references, how do I know? Because the bible I have has explanations at the bottom of each page explaining the culture and traditions etc of the time the passage was written. Really helps to gains some understanding behind some scripture.
Ah also an apologist that scripture is not spiritual, but just what people wrote way back then.
Same as a local Lutheran pastor who preaches that the scriptures on husbands and wives are not for today as they represent the culture of the times that they were written in.
Same again for those accepting homosexuality in various churches - no condemnation because those who wrote the scriptures did not have the medical and psychological understanding that we have today concerning sexuality.
Complete rubbish. The word of God is spiritual and everybody (including the saints) shall be judged against the word of God.

Psalm 119:9 Beth How can a young man keep his way pure? By guarding it according to your word.
10 With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your commandments!
11 I have stored up your word in my heart, that I might not sin against you.
 
Loyal
If it's the definition you presented for use, it's your definition - the one you wished used.
I see your point. So I will just use google and paste the first 5 definitions that are returned.

noun, plural a·pos·ta·sies.
a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc.

Apostasy (/əˈpɒstəsi/; Greek: ἀποστασία apostasía, "a defection or revolt") is the formal disaffiliation from, abandonment of, or renunciation of a religion by a person.


The definition of an apostasy is the act of leaving behind, or straying from, your religious or political beliefs or your principles.
An example of apostasy is when someone decides to become atheist.
An abandoning of what one has believed in, as a faith, cause, or principles.
Abandonment of one's religious faith, a political party, one's principles, or a cause.
Specifically, the renunciation of one's religion or faith.
The renunciation of a belief or set of beliefs.

noun

Origin of apostasy
  • Middle English apostasie from Old French from Late Latin apostasia defection from Late Greek apostasiā from Greek apostasis revolt from aphistanai aposta- to revolt apo- apo- histanai to stand, place stā- in Indo-European roots
    From American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition
  • From Latin apostasia, from Ancient Greek ἀποστασία (apostasia, “defection, revolt”), from ἀφίστημι (aphistēmi, “I withdraw, revolt”), from ἀπό (apo, “from”) + ἵστημι (histēmi, “I stand”)
    From Wiktionary

Apostasy, the total rejection of Christianity by a baptized person who, having at one time professed the Christian faith, publicly rejects it. It is distinguished from heresy, which is limited to the rejection of one or more Christian doctrines by one who maintains an overall adherence to Jesus Christ.


Definition of apostasy

1 : an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith


2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection



Amazingly enough, I would say all 5 definitions above agree with each other for the most part.
 
Loyal
Gen 3:7; Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.

It's interesting, that Adam and Eve were naked before they ate the fruit, and yet... their eyes weren't opened, and they didn't realize they were naked until they did eat the fruit.

Gen 3:10; He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.”
Gen 3:11; And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?”

The Bible doesn't say the serpent (Satan) told them they were naked, but yet somehow they knew this was wrong.

Gen 3:21; The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
Gen 3:22; Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”--

God Himself made Adam and Eve's clothing. Why didn't He simply leave them naked, or at least let them wear the clothing of leaves ( Gen 3:7; ) that they had made for themselves.
But in verse 22 here, God says man knows good from evil now. Once man knew good from evil, he knew nakedness was wrong.

In the context of the culture of the times, yes, very wise to use symbolism against mankind. The bible is full of culture references,
Yes sometimes the Bible uses spiritual metaphors/symbolism... but the spiritual truths never oppose the physical reality.
Here are some passages that reveal how God feels about nakedness. Both spiritual nakedness and physical nakedness.
The culture "of the times" doesn't change anything. God never changes, He is always the same. The things he viewed as sin 4,000 years are the same things He views as sin now.

Gen 9:20; Then Noah began farming and planted a vineyard.
Gen 9:21; He drank of the wine and became drunk, and uncovered himself inside his tent.
Gen 9:22; Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside.
Gen 9:23; But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it upon both their shoulders and walked backward and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were turned away, so that they did not see their father’s nakedness.

Exod 20:26; ‘And you shall not go up by steps to My altar, so that your nakedness will not be exposed on it.’

Lev 18:6; ‘None of you shall approach any blood relative of his to uncover nakedness; I am the Lord.
Lev 18:7; ‘You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father, that is, the nakedness of your mother. She is your mother; you are not to uncover her nakedness.
Lev 18:8; ‘You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s wife; it is your father’s nakedness.
Lev 18:9; ‘The nakedness of your sister, either your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether born at home or born outside, their nakedness you shall not uncover.
Lev 18:10; ‘The nakedness of your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter, their nakedness you shall not uncover; for their nakedness is yours.
Lev 18:11; ‘The nakedness of your father’s wife’s daughter, born to your father, she is your sister, you shall not uncover her nakedness.
Lev 18:12; ‘You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s sister; she is your father’s blood relative.
Lev 18:13; ‘You shall not uncover the nakedness of your mother’s sister, for she is your mother’s blood relative.
Lev 18:14; You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s brother; you shall not approach his wife, she is your aunt.
Lev 18:15; You shall not uncover the nakedness of your daughter-in-law; she is your son’s wife, you shall not uncover her nakedness.
Lev 18:16; You shall not uncover the nakedness of your brother’s wife; it is your brother’s nakedness.
Lev 18:17; You shall not uncover the nakedness of a woman and of her daughter, nor shall you take her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter, to uncover her nakedness; they are blood relatives. It is lewdness.

See Lev 20:19-21; Deut 23:14; Isa 47:3; Lam 1:8; Ezek 16:8; Nahum 3:5; Hab 2:15-16; Rev 3:18;
 
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Active
Wow. You really flew the coup on this one.

50 years and this is what you have to show for? Wow.
Useless and worthless ad hominem ... dismissed.

Rhema

(Do try to do better. They don't like clutter around here.)
 
Active
They believe "for a while"... and then they "fall away". It isn't that they never believed.
B-A-C,

I find myself surprised, I would have thought you to be OSAS.

(But I cannot disagree...)

Rhema
 
Active
I say the last 20 years, but the "falling away" has been going on longer than that.
One might say that the Reformation dealt a great blow to a "falling away" that was much more severe than the examples you provided.

Rhema

PS: But of course others might say that the Reformation itself (a mere 500 years old) was the start of the true great "falling away."
 
Active
He should have covered them in fur,
Maybe he did, and their fur fell out as the result of a chemical reaction with the fruit. After all, they were warned.

Rhema

PS: The term "Naked Ape" isn't without foundation.
 
Active
I see your point. So I will just use google and paste the first 5 definitions that are returned.
So which of the five is your definition... the one we should be using for this discussion?

If one doesn't understand your terms, one can hardly engage in discourse.

Rhema

PS: Wasn't Jesus apostate to the Jews ??

PPS:
Amazingly enough, I would say all 5 definitions above agree with each other for the most part.
And what of the concept of "totality" ?? Must apostacy be total rejection ?
 
Active
It's interesting, that Adam and Eve were naked before they ate the fruit, and yet... their eyes weren't opened, and they didn't realize they were naked until they did eat the fruit.
...
The Bible doesn't say the serpent (Satan) told them they were naked, but yet somehow they knew this was wrong.
So then who did tell Adam that he was naked?

(You are sooo close to understanding Autognosticism. Perhaps you do !!)

If their "knowing" came through sin, how can it be trusted ??

Rhema

Gen. 3:11 - the most important "left unanswered" question in the Bibile.
 
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