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The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not meant for everyone, for many cannot receive it, no matter how hard they may try!

Loyal
The trouble with predestination doctrine is that it conflicts with a lot of other verses.

2Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

God doesn't 'wish' for anyone to perish. He wants 'all' to come to repentance.

1Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God 'desires' ALL men to be saved. God wants ALL men to come to the knowledge of the truth.

So if God wants these things, but yet ALL men don't get saved... that leaves us with free-will. God doesn't force anyone to be saved or not to be saved.

A lot of verses are taken incorrectly and made to say something they don't say.

Rom 8:29; For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Rom 8:30; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

He 'foreknew'. I don't doubt that God knows the future. I have no problem with God knowing what happens in the future.
But just because He knew what choices people were going to make, doesn't mean He made them make those choices.
I may know you well enough to 'know' what kind of ice cream you're going to buy tomorrow. But that doesn't mean I made you make that choice.

Notice this verse doesn't say He predestined anyone to get saved. He says he 'foreknew' who was going to choose to be saved.
However if you do choose to be saved... "then" and ONLY then... it's predestined that you will be conformed to the image of His Son.

I may know what you're going to do in the future. I may 'know' you're going to join the military tomorrow. I didn't make that decision for you,
but I knew you were going to do it. Now then, now that you've made that decision, it's 'predestined' that you will get a very short haircut and wear a uniform.

Eph 1:4; just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
Eph 1:5; He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

This verse does not teach 'pre-existence'. Again people twist things to mean something it doesn't say.
If God knows the future, He knew mankind would fall. He already had a plan for salvation.. Jesus. He had this plan 'before the foundation of the world'.
He predestined us to adoption 'as sons'. People like to leave out the 'as sons' (or daughters) part of this verse. That changes the meaning of the verse.
I could say He 'predestined' us to become hamsters. He didn't predestine us to make the choice. He predestined what would happen to us after we made the choice.
Read the last part of verse 5 again... 'according to the kind intention of His will'.

If 2 Peter 3:9; and 2Tim 2:4; say it's God's will that all men be saved, and Eph 1:5 say this is according to the intention of His will.... then the only way these verses make sense
and don't conflict with the other verses is... He predestined what was going to happen to us.. after "we" made the choice to accept Jesus.
Let's us who are the very "Elect" of God, be rest assured of this; Whatsoever "HE" wills on wants to will, will come to pass. Beyond everything HE is Our Father "The Lord God Almighty" Everything that has been created, is for His purpose. For His Word has declared He is the Potter . Some vessels are made for honor and some for dis-honor! But both are for the "Manifesation and the Glory of God"! And God does not make any mistakes and there is no evil or wrong in Him. He makes one for honor and another for dis-honor and there is no unrighteousness in Him. Who can put Him on trial, who can bring a case against Him, what laws can He break, or laws can contain HiM, And where is the judge that will convict Him?
He shows mercy on whom He shows mercy! We are saved , by mercy and grace! There is nothing you can say or do to earn grace or mercy, The reason we are saved, it is because it is the Will of God before creation was ever made.

Sometimes there are text in Scripture we call a "Problem text" and there are texts of scripture we call "hard saying"! It Seems here we are addressing a problem or a somewhat "paradox". Sometimes a problem text has to do with the translation of the original meaning text of a specific arrangements of a group of Words.. Not saying this is the case here: [ God wills for all men to be saved] paraphrase here.

Here is another example: (Genesis 6:6). "The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply trouble".

When God made man He knew exactly what mankind was going to do. This is one of the reason is why we as brothers and sisters in Christ we must read The Whole Bible systematically in whole also, So our soul or spirit has a view through the "Holy Spirit" revelation of complete-ness of what "The WORD" has said, and not by our own understanding but the things the "Holy Spirit" has freely given us placement in His divine Word to understand "The Truth". " humbly speaking here".
I am only trying to explain that which has been reveal to me by "Holy Scripture" sorry if my explanation has fallen short.:(:oops:

PS. GOD did not have to look into the future to see anything. Forenew does not mean I can see into the future and see the out come. It means He knows the future because He shape the future before it existe. God does not have to look nowhere to know what is going to be. It has all ready happen before it was created. Everything comes to be, before it is created. "Everything"! God does not dwell in Time He created it. Time is a creation.
 
Loyal
Let's us who are the very "Elect" of God, be rest assured of this; Whatsoever "HE" wills on wants to will, will come to pass.


Amen brother

Beyond everything HE is Our Father "The Lord God Almighty" Everything that has been created, is for His purpose.


Again we say Amen

We are saved , by mercy and grace! There is nothing you can say or do to earn grace or mercy, The reason we are saved, it is because it is the Will of God before creation was ever made.


Keep it coming brother, to God be the Glory.

Here is another example: (Genesis 6:6). "The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply trouble".


That was then brother, image how He groans now, but through Jesus we can all be saved, Amazing Grace, incredible Mercy.

When God made man He knew exactly what mankind was going to do. This is one of the reason is why we as brothers and sisters in Christ we must read The Whole Bible systematically in whole also, So our soul or spirit has a view through the "Holy Spirit" revelation of complete-ness of what "The WORD" has said, and not by our own understanding but the things the "Holy Spirit" has freely given us placement in His divine Word to understand "The Truth". " humbly speaking here".
I am only trying to explain that which has been reveal to me by "Holy Scripture" sorry if my explanation has fallen short.:(:oops:

PS. GOD did not have to look into the future to see anything. Forenew does not mean I can see into the future and see the out come. It means He knows the future because He shape the future before it existe. God does not have to look nowhere to know what is going to be. It has all ready happen before it was created. Everything comes to be, before it is created. "Everything"! God does not dwell in Time He created it. Time is a creation.


Great post my friend, don't apologise, it is full of Truth.

Bless you
 
Loyal
God doesn't "will or want" anyone to go to hell. But they will.
I believe that a God, whose "will" cannot be carried out or His wants to be done, is a weak God!

But the GOD I know! " HIs will is done on earth as it is done in Heaven"! And Who has resist His "Will"? The Stars, The Moon, or The Sun. The Winds and The Seas does not resist Him! Whatever He commands it Happens!

Sorry if the GOD I serves offends you! But HE is the only one I know! He is "The LORD GOD ALMIGHTY" and I know no other!
And "I Will" declared HIS Majesty and Sovereignty has no end. now, If I have contribute to Him to much power over the will of mankind I stand here Guilty. If God wants you saved, nothing cannot stop it, even you!

I hope you like that.
 
Loyal
Matt 25:44; Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Matt 25:45; Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Matt 25:46; And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Matt 3:10; "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Matt 7:19; "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

John 15:6; "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Luke 13:23; Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Luke 13:24; Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Matt 7:14; Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Rev 21:8; "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Rev 14:9; And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10; The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11; And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Matt 13:41; The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Matt 13:42; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


I'm sure I could find a few more if I need to.
 
Loyal
Yes, so true! So it is the "will" of God if a person does not believe, it is God's "will" that, that person is condemn, For the rules and judgments comes from God if they do not meet His requirements.
 
Loyal
I believe that a God, whose "will" cannot be carried out or His wants to be done, is a weak God!

I believe He would be an even weaker God if what people do or don't do affects His deity.
Once upon a time there were two people on the Earth, both ate of the fruit, both fell from grace. At that time 100% of mankind was living in sin.
Did God quit being God during this time? God told them not to eat the fruit, they did it anyway.

Everytime you sin, you're disobeying God. I guess that means God must be weaker than you.
 
Loyal
Is it not beyond us, why He made us from the foundation of the world to be made into the image of Son. It was in His plan. "There is nothing we have done"
 
Active
It doesn't bother anyone that the only reason the ELECT are not deceived is because they are Gods ELECT? But those that are not deserve, somehow, to be roasted
forever because they were not CHOSEN?

John 6:39 "And this is the Fathers will which hath sent me that of all that he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."
John 3:35 "The Father loveth the Son, and hath given ALL things into his hand."

How do these verses fit with such a large number lost to eternal torment?
 
Loyal
It doesn't bother anyone that the only reason the ELECT are not deceived is because they are Gods ELECT? But those that are not deserve, somehow, to be roasted
forever because they were not CHOSEN?

John 6:39 "And this is the Fathers will which hath sent me that of all that he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."
John 3:35 "The Father loveth the Son, and hath given ALL things into his hand."

How do these verses fit with such a large number lost to eternal torment?

could be they get what they really want ???

Romans 1:24
Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,


seems he gives us a choice

2 Timothy 2:22
So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.

there is much more scripture about our personal accountability and our responsibility then there is on election, I believe in election because its in the bible, I also beleive in personal accountability and responsibility because its in the bible
 
Active
could be they get what they really want ???

How could they know what they want if they never tasted of the goodness of God but were subjected to be the children of disobedience their entire lifetime?
We all make decisions based on our current knowledge but as that knowledge increases/changes we make different decisions. But if the truth is hidden from them
how then do they make a decision with complete understanding?
As Jesus would say Father forgive them for "THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO."

And I would add that God started this with the intention of having All to come to the knowledge of the truth and be given life as a free gift. Question is when
will ALL come to the knowledge of the truth and inherit life eternal? Not if! As God is sovereign and will fulfill his own will.
Ephesians 1:9-11 "Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which HE HATH PURPOSED IN HIMSELF;.......
WHO WORKETH ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL."
 
Loyal
I believe He would be an even weaker God if what people do or don't do affects His deity.
Once upon a time there were two people on the Earth, both ate of the fruit, both fell from grace. At that time 100% of mankind was living in sin.
Did God quit being God during this time? God told them not to eat the fruit, they did it anyway.

Everytime you sin, you're disobeying God. I guess that means God must be weaker than you.
No, God design them to sin and to fall, because it is all in His plan, for His completion of us in Christ, the purpose before the beginning of time
His design that we would be conform in the image of His Son After he was wrap in the flesh then name Jesus who then rose from the grave. Becoming the 1st new creature of His brothers then we follow Him who has become a new creature a glorified body. We do not know what we are going to look like but when we see Him we will be just like Jesus a new creature. This plan started before the foundation of the world! But God in the end of time will reveal the story and why and we shall reign with Jesus Christ! Whatever He has created for His Son to have, it will be shared with us!

All of this creation from Genesis even now is still in the beginning, and the finishing work was done by Jesus. That is why when Jesus died on the Cross He said it is finish. [His mission] His part in our completion in making us the "Being" called "Human" now the "Holy Spirit" must finish His work in everyone of us who God has ordain to be. Until the last one has come to be. For God has set the number before the beginning of time, the number who will be conform into the image of His Son. All of these things that is happening in this creation is a mere nothing compared to our purpose and goal of Him creating us for Eternity for in which there is no time.

Earth and all of this creation is only for our creation into a being that GOD wants us to be, All creation in this cosmos was made in subjection to vanity and not to be. "Love not this world". This creation is not to be, This world is nothing more than a incubator and we are no more than a egg with the a shell of a cast away body that we will depart from.

God says this in not vain, love not this world neither the things in it. Our citizenship is not hear, we are completely different people than the other people of this world. It is not by choice or what we believe, we are totally different before we even existed in our birth canal. We are wheat planted among the tares. We are totally different. It is not what you believe, it is who you are! You are the elect of the Father, You are special not by your choice! And all the ones who are special and His, will all be saved! Not one will be lost! But all will be saved! Not some but all who are the true seed of "Abraham"! This is the pathway GOD has chosen! If you truly understand this "Tears would be running down your faces and you would be over run with joy and such bewilderment and amazement that you become undone that the "Holy Spirit" has to comfort you to assure it is true and you cannot deny it. His witness is true. You cannot but live a totally different life of separation in mind and spirit. You belong to God before the Foundation of the world to be conformed into the image of His, you always, been His. And He always Loved you. Do not be confused " when you see or hear "for God so Loved the World He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life"

The world right there do not mean He loves the people of the world! It means He loves the process of the world to created you into the image of His Son. The best paraphrase I can do! Sometimes there is a reason for loving something. I just spoke in human terms for understand a biblical truth.
 
Loyal
I"ve come across two adults in my life who decided to refuse to accept salvation. They acknowledged their personal sinfulness and decided to accept responsibility to pay for it themselves. It really disturbed them that Jesus Christ was made to die for them on the cross. They determined that they, themselves would pay for their own sin in hell / lake of fire and brimstone.
 
Loyal
The torment in Hell is in mind and spirit, that cease not, for the Word of God clashes in unyielding strength upon the very being of the creature in justifiable condemnation as if the worms died not, but continue swerving and rest not. No peace, no comfortable position, but only tossing and turning, gnashing of teeth as the Word of God torment that person intensively relentlessly by Its presence. "for David said:
"If I ascend up into heaven, you are there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, you are there."
People say, a lot of things as long as they are not there yet! In their minds "God is Love" but He is a Consuming Fire too! The kind that consume you and the flames die not neither their worms die not! Pay for their own sins, with what?
 
Loyal
Yes, so true! So it is the "will" of God if a person does not believe, it is God's "will" that, that person is condemn, For the rules and judgments comes from God if they do not meet His requirements.


I do not think it is God's will that a person is condemned, to the contrary. John 3:17-21 makes it clear, though God doesn't want any to perish some will be, because 'they have chosen' not to accept Jesus and what He did and went through for them.

John 3:17-21 (NKJV)
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.


2 Peter 3:9 (NKJV)
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Those who are condemned, have condemned themselves, God has not condemned them, they chose not to accept Jesus.
 
Loyal
God doesn't make anyone sin. It is blasphemy to say He does.

Jas 1:12; Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
Jas 1:13; Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
Jas 1:14; But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
Jas 1:15; Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Jas 1:16; Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.

Even Satan cannot force believers to sin. He can tempt us (and does), but when a man sins, it is because of "his own" lust. Not anything God made us do.
When we start blaming God for our sins, we have a real problem. When we sin, we need to own it and take responsibility for it.
 
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