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The dreaded "works" doctrine.

Greetings,

may i share one explanation of the word 'propitiation' ?

as it appears in Romans 3:25 but discusses other instances and help the reader to grasp the message before them.
(please remember that this is only one verse in a chapter of one book of the Bible.

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;



Set forth (προέθετο)

Publicly, openly (πρό); correlated with to declare. He brought Him forth and put Him before the public. Bengel, "placed before the eyes of all;" unlike the ark of the covenant which was veiled and approached only by the high-priest. The word is used by Herodotus of exposing corpses (v. 8); by Thucydides of exposing the bones of the dead (ii. 34). Compare the shew-bread, the loaves of the setting-forth (τῆς προθεσέως). See on Mar 2:26. Paul refers not to preaching, but to the work of atonement itself, in which God's righteousness is displayed. Some render purposed or determined, as Rom 1:13; Eph 1:9, and according to the usual meaning of πρόθεσις purpose, in the New Testament. But the meaning adopted here is fixed by to declare.

Propitiation (ἱλαστήριον)

This word is most important, since it is the key to the conception of Christ's atoning work. In the New Testament it occurs only here and Heb 9:5; and must be studied in connection with the following kindred words: ἱλάσκομαι which occurs in the New Testament only Luk 18:13, God be merciful, and Heb 2:17, to make reconciliation. Ἱλασμός twice, Jo1 2:2; Jo1 4:10; in both cases rendered propitiation. The compound ἐξιλάσκομαι, which is not found in the New Testament, but is frequent in the Septuagint and is rendered purge, cleanse, reconcile, make atonement.

Septuagint usage. These words mostly represent the Hebrew verb kaphar to cover or conceal, and its derivatives. With only seven exceptions, out of about sixty or seventy passages in the Old Testament, where the Hebrew is translated by atone or atonement, the Septuagint employs some part or derivative of ἱλάσκομαι or ἐξιλάσκομαι or Ἱλασμός or ἐξιλασμός is the usual Septuagint translation for kippurim covering for sin, A.V., atonement. Thus sin-offerings of atonement; day of atonement; ram of the atonement. See Exo 29:36; Exo 30:10; Lev 23:27; Num 5:8, etc. They are also used for chattath sin-offering, Eze 44:27; Eze 45:19; and for selichah forgiveness. Psa 129:4; Dan 9:9.

These words are always used absolutely, without anything to mark the offense or the person propitiated.

Ἱλάσκομαι, which is comparatively rare, occurs as a translation of kipher to cover sin, Psa 65:3; Psa 78:38; Psa 79:9; A.V., purge away, forgive, pardon. Of salach, to bear away as a burden, Kg2 5:18; Psa 25:11 : A.V., forgive, pardon. It is used with the accusative (direct objective) case, marking the sin, or with the dative (indirect objective), as be conciliated to our sins.

Ἑξιλάσκομαι mostly represents kipher to cover, and is more common than the simple verb. Thus, purge the altar, Eze 43:26; cleanse the sanctuary, Eze 45:20; reconcile the house, Dan 9:24. It is found with the accusative case of that which is cleansed; with the preposition περί concerning, as "for your sin," Exo 32:30; with the preposition ὑπέρ on behalf of A.V., for, Eze 45:17; absolutely, to make an atonement, Lev 16:17; with the preposition ἀπό from, as "cleansed from the blood," Num 35:33. There are but two instances of the accusative of the person propitiated: appease him, Gen 32:20; pray before (propitiate) the Lord, Zac 7:2.

Ἱλαστηριον, A.V., propitiation, is almost always used in the Old Testament of the mercy-seat or golden cover of the ark, and this is its meaning in Heb 9:5, the only other passage of the New Testament in which it is found. In Eze 43:14, Eze 43:17, Eze 43:20, it means a ledge round a large altar, and is rendered settle in A.V.; Rev., ledge, in margin.

This term has been unduly pressed into the sense of explanatory sacrifice. In the case of the kindred verbs, the dominant Old-Testament sense is not propitiation in the sense of something offered to placate or appease anger; but atonement or reconciliation, through the covering, and so getting rid of the sin which stands between God and man. The thrust of the idea is upon the sin or uncleanness, not upon the offended party. Hence the frequent interchange with ἀγιάζω to sanctify, and καθαρίζω to cleanse. See Eze 43:26, where ἐξιλάσονται shall purge, and καθαριοῦσιν shall purify, are used coordinately. See also Exo 30:10, of the altar of incense: "Aaron shall make an atonement (ἐξιλάσεται) upon the horns of it - with the blood of the sin-offering of atonement" (καθαρισμοῦ purification). Compare Lev 16:20. The Hebrew terms are also used coordinately.

Our translators frequently render the verb kaphar by reconcile, Lev 6:30; Lev 16:20; Eze 45:20. In Lev 8:15, Moses put blood upon the horns of the altar and cleansed (ἐκαθάρισε) the altar, and sanctified (ἡγίασεν) it, to make reconciliation (τοῦ ἐξιλάσασθαι) upon it. Compare Eze 45:15, Eze 45:17; Dan 9:24.

The verb and its derivatives occur where the ordinary idea of expiation is excluded. As applied to an altar or to the walls of a house (Lev 14:48-53), this idea could have no force, because these inanimate things, though ceremonially unclean, could have no sin to be expiated. Moses, when he went up to make atonement for the idolatry at Sinai, offered no sacrifice, but only intercession. See also the case of Korah, Num 16:46; the cleansing of leprosy and of mothers after childbirth, Leviticus 14:1-20; Lev 12:7; Lev 15:30; the reformation of Josiah, 2 Chronicles 34; the fasting and confession of Ezra, Ezr 10:1-15; the offering of the Israelite army after the defeat of Midian. They brought bracelets, rings, etc., to make an atonement (ἐξιλάσασθαι) before the Lord; not expiatory, but a memorial, Num 31:50-54. The Passover was in no sense expiatory; but Paul says, "Christ our Passover was sacrificed for us; therefore purge out (ἐκκαθάρατε) the old leaven. Let us keep the feast with sincerity and truth;" Co1 5:7, Co1 5:8.

In the Old Testament the idea of sacrifice as in itself a propitiation continually recedes before that of the personal character lying back of sacrifice, and which alone gives virtue to it. See Sa1 15:22; Psa 40:6-10; Psa 50:8-14, Psa 50:23; Psa 51:16, Psa 51:17; Isa 1:11-18; Jer 7:21-23; Amo 5:21-24; Mic 6:6-8. This idea does not recede in the Old Testament to be reemphasized in the New. On the contrary, the New Testament emphasizes the recession, and lays the stress upon the cleansing and life-giving effect of the sacrifice of Christ. See Joh 1:29; Col 1:20-22; Heb 9:14; Heb 10:19-21; Pe1 2:24; Jo1 1:7; Jo1 4:10-13.

The true meaning of the offering of Christ concentrates, therefore, not upon divine justice, but upon human character; not upon the remission of penalty for a consideration, but upon the deliverance from penalty through moral transformation; not upon satisfying divine justice, but upon bringing estranged man into harmony with God. As Canon Westcott remarks: "The scripture conception of ἱλάσκεσθαι is not that of appeasing one who is angry with a personal feeling against the offender, but of altering the character of that which, from without, occasions a necessary alienation, and interposes an inevitable obstacle to fellowship" (Commentary on St. John's Epistles, p. 85).

In the light of this conception we are brought back to that rendering of ἱλαστήριον which prevails in the Septuagint, and which it has in the only other New-Testament passage where it occurs (Heb 9:5) - mercy-seat; a rendering, maintained by a large number of the earlier expositors, and by some of the ablest of the moderns. That it is the sole instance of its occurrence in this sense is a fact which has its parallel in the terms Passover, Door, Rock, Amen, Day-spring, and others, applied to Christ. To say that the metaphor is awkward counts for nothing in the light of other metaphors of Paul. To say that the concealment of the ark is inconsistent with set forth is to adduce the strongest argument in favor of this rendering. The contrast with set forth falls in perfectly with the general conception. That mercy-seat which was veiled, and which the Jew could approach only once a fear, and then through the medium of the High-Priest, is now brought out where all can draw nigh and experience its reconciling power (Heb 10:19, Heb 10:22; compare Heb 9:8). "The word became flesh and dwelt among us. We beheld His glory. We saw and handled" (Joh 1:14; Jo1 1:1-3). The mercy-seat was the meetingplace of God and man (Exo 25:17-22; Lev 16:2; Num 7:89); the place of mediation and manifestation. Through Christ, the antitype of the mercy-seat, the Mediator, man has access to the Father (Eph 2:18). As the golden surface covered the tables of the law, so Christ stands over the law, vindicating it as holy and just and good, and therewith vindicating the divine claim to obedience and holiness. As the blood was annually sprinkled on the golden cover by the High-Priest, so Christ is set forth "in His blood," not shed to appease God's wrath, to satisfy God's justice, nor to compensate for man's disobedience, but as the highest expression of divine love for man, taking common part with humanity even unto death, that it might reconcile it through faith and self-surrender to God.

Through faith

Connect with propitiation (mercy-seat). The sacrifice of Christ becomes effective through the faith which appropriates it. Reconciliation implies two parties. "No propitiation reaches the mark that does not on its way, reconcile or bring into faith, the subject for whom it is made. There is no God-welcome prepared which does not open the guilty heart to welcome God" (Bushnell).

In His blood

Construe with set forth, and render as Rev., by His blood; i.e., in that He caused Him to shed His blood.

To declare His righteousness (εἱς ἔνδειξιν τῆς δικαιοσύνης αὐτοῦ)

Lit., for a shewing, etc. Rev., to shew. For practical proof or demonstration. Not, as so often explained, to shew God's righteous indignation against sin by wreaking its penalty on the innocent Christ. The shewing of the cross is primarily the shewing of God's love and yearning to be at one with man (Joh 3:14-17). The righteousness of God here is not His "judicial" or "punitive" righteousness, but His righteous character, revealing its antagonism to sin in its effort to save man from his sin, and put forward as a ground of mercy, not as an obstacle to mercy.

For the remission of sins that are past (διὰ τὴν πάρεσιν τῶν προγεγονότων ἁμαρτημάτων)

Rev., correctly, because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime. Passing over, praetermission, differs from remission (ἄφεσις). In remission guilt and punishment are sent away; in praetermission they are wholly or partially undealt with. Compare Act 14:16; Act 17:30. Ἁμάρτημα sin, is the separate and particular deed of disobedience, while ἁμαρτία includes sin in the abstract - sin regarded as sinfulness. Sins done aforetime are the collective sins of the world before Christ.

Through the forbearance of God (ἐν τῇ ἀνοχῇ τοῦ Θεοῦ)

Rev., in the forbearance. Construe with the passing by. The word ἀνοχή forbearance, from ἀνέχω to hold up, occurs in the New Testament only here and Rom 2:4. It is not found in the Septuagint proper, and is not frequent in classical Greek, where it is used of a holding back or stopping of hostilities; a truce; in later Greek, a permission.

The passage has given much trouble to expositors, largely, I think, through their insisting on the sense of forbearance with reference to sins - the toleration or refraining from punishment of sins done aforetime. But it is a fair construction of the term to apply it, in its primary sense of holding back, to the divine method of dealing with sin. It cannot be said that God passed over the sins of the world before Christ without penalty, for that is plainly contradicted by Rom 1:18-32; but He did pass them over in the sense that He did not apply, but held back the redeeming agency of God manifest in the flesh until the "fullness of time." The sacrifices were a homage rendered to God's righteousness, but they did not touch sin with the power and depth which attached to Christ's sacrifice. No demonstration of God's righteousness and consequent hatred of sin, could be given equal to that of the life and death of Jesus. Hence Paul, as I take it, says: God set forth Christ as the world's mercy-seat, for the showing forth of His righteousness, because previously He had given no such manifestation of His righteousness, but had held it back, passing over, with the temporary institution of sacrifices, the sin at the roots of which He finally struck in the sacrifice of Christ.

from: Vincent's Word Studies


Bless you ....><>
 
'Ye are bought with a price'
(1 Corinthians 6:20)

Hello @Butch5,

The subject of the Kinsman-Redeemer is ever before my mind when I come to this thread, and the subject of redemption. For it was the Kinsman-Redeemer who had the right to redeem a fellow kinsman, and it was for this purpose that we read in Hebrews 2:14-15,

'Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood,
He also Himself likewise took part of the same;
that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage..'

(Heb 2:14-15)

The eternal Son of God became a partaker of flesh and blood in order to deliver; He was made of a woman to redeem. This had to be, for according to the law only a kinsman, one of legal relationship could enter into this transaction.

'For verily He took not on Him the nature of angels;
but He took on Him the seed of Abraham.
Wherefore in all things it behoved Him to be made like unto His brethren,
that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God,
to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
For in that He Himself hath suffered being tempted,
He is able to succour them that are tempted.'

(Heb 2:16-18)

The Kinsman-redeemer, is also called 'the revenger of blood' (Numbers 35:19). The word 'revenger' in this verse is the same in its original Hebrew as Kinsman or redeemer, this again is legal. The Mosaic law was so worded by God that if any person was murdered, then the next of kin was to prosecute and bring the murderer to justice; as the Kinsman-Redeemer, he himself was to slay the murderer. In this capacity he was designated 'the revenger' (redeemer) .

The New Testament gives the spiritual meaning to the Mosaic law concerning the revenger. When upon earth, speaking of Satan, the Lord Jesus said, 'He was a murderer from the beginning' (John 8:44). It was he, the Devil, who inflicted that mortal wound to mankind that would result in eternal death: but because of the kinsman relationship of Christ to us by union, He could revenge. This He did at Calvary; through His mighty work of atonement, Christ the Kinsman Redeemer destroyed him who had the power of death, that is the Devil (Hebrews 2:14), openly triumphing over principalities and powers (Colossians 2:15).

Another vital aspect of redemption was that the Law demanded a full ransom price. A ransom is the price paid in order to redeem. The life and death of the Lord Jesus was the price paid for the redemption of God's chosen people. (Matthew 20:28). He became a legal surety (Hebrews 7:22). He accepted all liability for God's elect, becoming the great paymaster of His people's debts (Hebrews 9:15); 'Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus' (Romans 3:24). Justification is attributed to the free grace of God, nevertheless it is through purchase, or the putting down of the ransom price by Christ by means of death. (1 Corinthians 6:20).

This putting down of a ransom, I read, has led to much doctrinal controversy. From early centuries AD varying views have been held as to whom the ransom was paid. including the one which you have put forward @Butch5, which developed in the third century AD, that Christ paid the ransom to Satan. It was contended that sinners were never in bondage to God, rather were they captives of the Devil and that a ransom had to be paid to Satan in order to secure their release. This can be made to sound very feasible and some clever arguments have been put forward over the generations apparently, resulting in many being confused and led astray. This paying of a ransom to Satan is not the doctrine of Holy Scripture.

Because of man's guilt in Adam and personal rebellion, God, as supreme Judge and Governor, delivered mankind unto Satan; such are under the power of sin and death, Satan as jailor holds them. There is a vast difference between sinners being captives of the Devil and his having legitimate rights over them; this the Devil does not have. It is true that man is a slave to Satan, but that is the secondary result of his sin and bondage, not the primary cause. The question must be asked, 'Who delivered man over to Satan on account of sin?' To this there is only one answer - God Himself. It is by Divine justice that the sinner is held bound for punishment, not Satanic justice. The Penalty is demanded by God not Satan. The Devil is acting as the executioner of God's righteous sentence. it is God alone Who has the right to detain the sinner in prison. The authority which detains a sinner in captivity is the unbending Divine Law; if it were not for the Law, Satan could not hold a soul captive for a moment.

Therefore it was to God and to His intrinsic holiness that the ransom was due. Man has not sinned against Satan, but against God. Redemption delivers the believing sinner from the power of darkness and translates him into the kingdom of God's dear Son. In Whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins (Colossians 1:13-14).

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
Greetings Chris,

is this in part why He is also called the Son of Man


Bless you ....><>
 
'Ye are bought with a price'
(1 Corinthians 6:20)

Hello @Butch5,

The subject of the Kinsman-Redeemer is ever before my mind when I come to this thread, and the subject of redemption. For it was the Kinsman-Redeemer who had the right to redeem a fellow kinsman, and it was for this purpose that we read in Hebrews 2:14-15,

'Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood,
He also Himself likewise took part of the same;
that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage..'

(Heb 2:14-15)

The eternal Son of God became a partaker of flesh and blood in order to deliver; He was made of a woman to redeem. This had to be, for according to the law only a kinsman, one of legal relationship could enter into this transaction.

'For verily He took not on Him the nature of angels;
but He took on Him the seed of Abraham.
Wherefore in all things it behoved Him to be made like unto His brethren,
that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God,
to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
For in that He Himself hath suffered being tempted,
He is able to succour them that are tempted.'

(Heb 2:16-18)

The Kinsman-redeemer, is also called 'the revenger of blood' (Numbers 35:19). The word 'revenger' in this verse is the same in its original Hebrew as Kinsman or redeemer, this again is legal. The Mosaic law was so worded by God that if any person was murdered, then the next of kin was to prosecute and bring the murderer to justice; as the Kinsman-Redeemer, he himself was to slay the murderer. In this capacity he was designated 'the revenger' (redeemer) .

The New Testament gives the spiritual meaning to the Mosaic law concerning the revenger. When upon earth, speaking of Satan, the Lord Jesus said, 'He was a murderer from the beginning' (John 8:44). It was he, the Devil, who inflicted that mortal wound to mankind that would result in eternal death: but because of the kinsman relationship of Christ to us by union, He could revenge. This He did at Calvary; through His mighty work of atonement, Christ the Kinsman Redeemer destroyed him who had the power of death, that is the Devil (Hebrews 2:14), openly triumphing over principalities and powers (Colossians 2:15).

Another vital aspect of redemption was that the Law demanded a full ransom price. A ransom is the price paid in order to redeem. The life and death of the Lord Jesus was the price paid for the redemption of God's chosen people. (Matthew 20:28). He became a legal surety (Hebrews 7:22). He accepted all liability for God's elect, becoming the great paymaster of His people's debts (Hebrews 9:15); 'Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus' (Romans 3:24). Justification is attributed to the free grace of God, nevertheless it is through purchase, or the putting down of the ransom price by Christ by means of death. (1 Corinthians 6:20).

This putting down of a ransom, I read, has led to much doctrinal controversy. From early centuries AD varying views have been held as to whom the ransom was paid. including the one which you have put forward @Butch5, which developed in the third century AD, that Christ paid the ransom to Satan. It was contended that sinners were never in bondage to God, rather were they captives of the Devil and that a ransom had to be paid to Satan in order to secure their release. This can be made to sound very feasible and some clever arguments have been put forward over the generations apparently, resulting in many being confused and led astray. This paying of a ransom to Satan is not the doctrine of Holy Scripture.

Because of man's guilt in Adam and personal rebellion, God, as supreme Judge and Governor, delivered mankind unto Satan; such are under the power of sin and death, Satan as jailor holds them. There is a vast difference between sinners being captives of the Devil and his having legitimate rights over them; this the Devil does not have. It is true that man is a slave to Satan, but that is the secondary result of his sin and bondage, not the primary cause. The question must be asked, 'Who delivered man over to Satan on account of sin?' To this there is only one answer - God Himself. It is by Divine justice that the sinner is held bound for punishment, not Satanic justice. The Penalty is demanded by God not Satan. The Devil is acting as the executioner of God's righteous sentence. it is God alone Who has the right to detain the sinner in prison. The authority which detains a sinner in captivity is the unbending Divine Law; if it were not for the Law, Satan could not hold a soul captive for a moment.

Therefore it was to God and to His intrinsic holiness that the ransom was due. Man has not sinned against Satan, but against God. Redemption delivers the believing sinner from the power of darkness and translates him into the kingdom of God's dear Son. In Whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins (Colossians 1:13-14).

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Hi Chris,

I'll address this in more detail later. What you've proposed here doesn't make sense to me. It seems your argument is that God handed man over to Satan and then demanded His own Son die so that He could get man back. What would be the point in that?

Also, instead of looking at it from a perspective of what the Law required. What if we looked at if from the perspective of the Law was modeled after what Christ would do. In other words, instead of the Law foreshadowing what Christ would do, the was actually molded after what God had planned that Christ would do.
 
Hi Chris,

I'll address this in more detail later. What you've proposed here doesn't make sense to me. It seems your argument is that God handed man over to Satan and then demanded His own Son die so that He could get man back. What would be the point in that?

Also, instead of looking at it from a perspective of what the Law required. What if we looked at if from the perspective of the Law was modeled after what Christ would do. In other words, instead of the Law foreshadowing what Christ would do, the was actually molded after what God had planned that Christ would do.
Hi @Butch5,

Whenever you are ready.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
'Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood,
He also Himself likewise took part of the same;
that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage..'

(Heb 2:14-15)
Hello @BUTCH,

In relation to what you have said in a previous post concerning death, when you asked the question;- Why then do believers die?

If you notice in the verse above, it is the 'fear of death' which brought bondage. It was also 'the power of death' that was dealt with by our Lord, wasn't it. Death itself will be the last enemy to be destroyed, for until all enemies have been placed under our Lord's feet death is necessary.

Even in another verse which comes to mind now, where the words 'abolish death' are used, the word 'abolish' means' to make of none effect'. Death has been made powerless to the believer, because the believer has the hope of being resurrected to life, the grave will not hold him, for death will be swallowed up in victory.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
'Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood,
He also Himself likewise took part of the same;
that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage..'

(Heb 2:14-15)
Hello @BUTCH,

In relation to what you have said in a previous post concerning death, when you asked the question;- Why then do believers die?

If you notice in the verse above, it is the 'fear of death' which brought bondage. It was also 'the power of death' that was dealt with by our Lord, wasn't it. Death itself will be the last enemy to be destroyed, for until all enemies have been placed under our Lord's feet death is necessary.

Even in another verse which comes to mind now, where the words 'abolish death' are used, the word 'abolish' means' to make of none effect'. Death has been made powerless to the believer, because the believer has the hope of being resurrected to life, the grave will not hold him, for death will be swallowed up in victory.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Hi Chris,

But, that doesn't answer the question of why believers die? If Christ paid that price why do believers also pay it?
 
Hi Chris,

But, that doesn't answer the question of why believers die? If Christ paid that price why do believers also pay it?
Hello @Butch5,

For this mortal must put on immortality. In the reckoning of God the believer who dies is asleep in Christ awaiting resurrection. So, in God's eyes the believer is not dead, but alive in Christ.

When you find an answer which satisfies you, perhaps you would share it with us.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
Hello @Butch5,

For this mortal must put on immortality. In the reckoning of God the believer who dies is asleep in Christ awaiting resurrection. So, in God's eyes the believer is not dead, but alive in Christ.

When you find an answer which satisfies you, perhaps you would share it with us.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
That doesnt solve the problem. When Adam and Eve ate from the tree, God told them they would die. They sinned and they died. Everyone since who has sinned, has died. That includes believers. But, according to the Penal Model Jesus paid for that. If that's the case the believers shouldn't die, but they do. That leaves two options, either "debt" is paid twice, and there is no forgiveness, or Jesus died for something else.

I have an answer that satisfies me. I've already given it to you. You rejected it.
 
They sinned and they died. Everyone since who has sinned, has died.
Because we still live in natural bodies in a world still ruled by fallen angels. We are subject to time and disease, etc.
If Spirit-filled Christians had ageless bodies then everybody would jump on the bandwagon and profess faith just to be healthy and to live without arthritis, etc. Where would the love of God and righteousness be in that?
In the 1900s the late great Smith Wigglesworth had massive divine healing rallies where tens of thousands of people with all manner of diseases and infirmities attended.
He was an old fashioned firebrand preacher and preached on the need and power of the Holy Spirit in the believer's life and in speaking in tongues.
Thousands and thousands came for the healings and threw away their crutches, but most did not embrace Pentecostalism and returned back to their old faiths (which could not heal them).


Genesis 3:24 He [YWHV] drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.
We do not as yet have access to the tree of life and to eat of its fruit.
The salvation of our souls is a promise, a hope, we await for through faithfulness to the gospel.

John 6:27 Work not for the food which perishes, but for the food which abides unto eternal life, which the Son of man shall give you: for him the Father, God, has sealed.
 
Because we still live in natural bodies in a world still ruled by fallen angels. We are subject to time and disease, etc.
If Spirit-filled Christians had ageless bodies then everybody would jump on the bandwagon and profess faith just to be healthy and to live without arthritis, etc. Where would the love of God and righteousness be in that?
In the 1900s the late great Smith Wigglesworth had massive divine healing rallies where tens of thousands of people with all manner of diseases and infirmities attended.
He was an old fashioned firebrand preacher and preached on the need and power of the Holy Spirit in the believer's life and in speaking in tongues.
Thousands and thousands came for the healings and threw away their crutches, but most did not embrace Pentecostalism and returned back to their old faiths (which could not heal them).


Genesis 3:24 He [YWHV] drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.
We do not as yet have access to the tree of life and to eat of its fruit.
The salvation of our souls is a promise, a hope, we await for through faithfulness to the gospel.

John 6:27 Work not for the food which perishes, but for the food which abides unto eternal life, which the Son of man shall give you: for him the Father, God, has sealed.
Hi Downunder,

Th aw t still doesnt answer the question. If Jesus died to pay a sin "debt" to God, why do believers also pay it?
 
I don't believe there is a debt. However, the Penal model holds that man owes a sin debt to God and that Jesus paid that debt.
Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.
My understanding is that Jesus took this penalty of spiritual death upon himself as a propitiation for our sins.
His death removes the penalty for sin from us to him; hence we are covered by the blood of the Lamb.


Romans 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.
6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
 
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
 
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
I'm aware of these passages. What is the point you're making?
 
'Ye are bought with a price'
(1 Corinthians 6:20)

Hello @Butch5,

The subject of the Kinsman-Redeemer is ever before my mind when I come to this thread, and the subject of redemption. For it was the Kinsman-Redeemer who had the right to redeem a fellow kinsman, and it was for this purpose that we read in Hebrews 2:14-15,

'Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood,
He also Himself likewise took part of the same;
that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage..'

(Heb 2:14-15)

The eternal Son of God became a partaker of flesh and blood in order to deliver; He was made of a woman to redeem. This had to be, for according to the law only a kinsman, one of legal relationship could enter into this transaction.

'For verily He took not on Him the nature of angels;
but He took on Him the seed of Abraham.
Wherefore in all things it behoved Him to be made like unto His brethren,
that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God,
to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
For in that He Himself hath suffered being tempted,
He is able to succour them that are tempted.'

(Heb 2:16-18)

The Kinsman-redeemer, is also called 'the revenger of blood' (Numbers 35:19). The word 'revenger' in this verse is the same in its original Hebrew as Kinsman or redeemer, this again is legal. The Mosaic law was so worded by God that if any person was murdered, then the next of kin was to prosecute and bring the murderer to justice; as the Kinsman-Redeemer, he himself was to slay the murderer. In this capacity he was designated 'the revenger' (redeemer) .

The New Testament gives the spiritual meaning to the Mosaic law concerning the revenger. When upon earth, speaking of Satan, the Lord Jesus said, 'He was a murderer from the beginning' (John 8:44). It was he, the Devil, who inflicted that mortal wound to mankind that would result in eternal death: but because of the kinsman relationship of Christ to us by union, He could revenge. This He did at Calvary; through His mighty work of atonement, Christ the Kinsman Redeemer destroyed him who had the power of death, that is the Devil (Hebrews 2:14), openly triumphing over principalities and powers (Colossians 2:15).

Another vital aspect of redemption was that the Law demanded a full ransom price. A ransom is the price paid in order to redeem. The life and death of the Lord Jesus was the price paid for the redemption of God's chosen people. (Matthew 20:28). He became a legal surety (Hebrews 7:22). He accepted all liability for God's elect, becoming the great paymaster of His people's debts (Hebrews 9:15); 'Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus' (Romans 3:24). Justification is attributed to the free grace of God, nevertheless it is through purchase, or the putting down of the ransom price by Christ by means of death. (1 Corinthians 6:20).

This putting down of a ransom, I read, has led to much doctrinal controversy. From early centuries AD varying views have been held as to whom the ransom was paid. including the one which you have put forward @Butch5, which developed in the third century AD, that Christ paid the ransom to Satan. It was contended that sinners were never in bondage to God, rather were they captives of the Devil and that a ransom had to be paid to Satan in order to secure their release. This can be made to sound very feasible and some clever arguments have been put forward over the generations apparently, resulting in many being confused and led astray. This paying of a ransom to Satan is not the doctrine of Holy Scripture.

Because of man's guilt in Adam and personal rebellion, God, as supreme Judge and Governor, delivered mankind unto Satan; such are under the power of sin and death, Satan as jailor holds them. There is a vast difference between sinners being captives of the Devil and his having legitimate rights over them; this the Devil does not have. It is true that man is a slave to Satan, but that is the secondary result of his sin and bondage, not the primary cause. The question must be asked, 'Who delivered man over to Satan on account of sin?' To this there is only one answer - God Himself. It is by Divine justice that the sinner is held bound for punishment, not Satanic justice. The Penalty is demanded by God not Satan. The Devil is acting as the executioner of God's righteous sentence. it is God alone Who has the right to detain the sinner in prison. The authority which detains a sinner in captivity is the unbending Divine Law; if it were not for the Law, Satan could not hold a soul captive for a moment.

Therefore it was to God and to His intrinsic holiness that the ransom was due. Man has not sinned against Satan, but against God. Redemption delivers the believing sinner from the power of darkness and translates him into the kingdom of God's dear Son. In Whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins (Colossians 1:13-14).

Praise God!
even then,
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Hi Chris,

As I said in the other post, this doesn't make sense to me. Why would God demand a ransom for man after having man and turning him over to Satan? Also, as you've suggested that Satan is effectively working for God as a Jailor, then God still would have control of man, thus no ransom would be necessary. One only pays a ransom when the target is out of their control. Even then, they don't pay the ransom to themselves. Could you please explain how any of this would work?

Additionally, we still have the elephant in the room. If the debt was paid then there is no forgiveness. The Penal Mode has no room for forgiveness. Payment and forgiveness are mutually exclusive. Yet the Scriptures are replete with statements about forgiveness, and I'm not aware of anything that says one can pay God for their sins.

Also, I'm not sure where you read that the ransom paid to Satan came about in the third century. That is simply wrong. Here is a quote from Irenaeus. Irenaeus was taught by a man named Polycarp. Polycarp was a student of the apostle John himself. So, Irenaeus has a direct connection back to the apostle John Irenaeus wrote around 160 AD. Here is what he said.


Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 1
1. For in no other way could we have learned the things of God, unless our Master, existing as the Word, had become man. For no other being had the power of revealing to us the things of the Father, except His own proper Word. For what other person “knew the mind of the Lord,” or who else “has become His counsellor?” Again, we could have learned in no other way than by seeing our Teacher, and hearing His voice with our own ears, that, having become imitators of His works as well as doers of His words, we may have communion with Him, receiving increase from the perfect One, and from Him who is prior to all creation. We — who were but lately created by the only best and good Being, by Him also who has the gift of immortality, having been formed after His likeness (predestinated, according to the prescience of the Father, that we, who had as yet no existence, might come into being), and made the first-fruits of creation — have received, in the times known beforehand, [the blessings of salvation] according to the ministration of the Word, who is perfect in all things, as the mighty Word, and very man, who, redeeming us by His own blood in a manner consonant to reason, gave Himself as a redemption for those who had been led into captivity. And since the apostasy tyrannized over us unjustly, and, though we were by nature the property of the omnipotent God, alienated us contrary to nature, rendering us its own disciples, the Word of God, powerful in all things, and not defective with regard to His own justice, did righteously turn against that apostasy, and redeem from it His own property, not by violent means, as the [apostasy] had obtained dominion over us at the beginning, when it insatiably snatched away what was not its own, but by means of persuasion, as became a God of counsel, who does not use violent means to obtain what He desires; so that neither should justice be infringed upon, nor the ancient handiwork of God go to destruction. Since the Lord thus has redeemed us through His own blood, giving His soul for our souls, and His flesh for our flesh, and has also poured out the Spirit of the Father for the union and communion of God and man, imparting indeed God to men by means of the Spirit, and, on the other hand, attaching man to God by His own incarnation, and bestowing upon us at His coming immortality durably and truly, by means of communion with God, — all the doctrines of the heretics fall to ruin.
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325
.

Notice who Irenaeus said the ransom was paid to. Notice he said that Satan, that apostasy, alienated man and rendered him his disciples. Notice he says that the Word of God redeemed from that apostasy His own property. So, he says Christ redeemed man from Satan. This is a man who lived shortly after the apostle John and whas taught by John's disciple. Irenaeus wrote 5 books called Against Heresies, where he refuted the false teachings of his day,
 
That doesnt solve the problem. When Adam and Eve ate from the tree, God told them they would die. They sinned and they died. Everyone since who has sinned, has died. That includes believers. But, according to the Penal Model Jesus paid for that. If that's the case the believers shouldn't die, but they do. That leaves two options, either "debt" is paid twice, and there is no forgiveness, or Jesus died for something else.

I have an answer that satisfies me. I've already given it to you. You rejected it.
Hello @Butch5,

With respect, you raised this, it is therefore your problem. I do not have a problem with it. So rather than spend any more time on this I will leave it with you.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Hi Chris,

As I said in the other post, this doesn't make sense to me. Why would God demand a ransom for man after having man and turning him over to Satan? Also, as you've suggested that Satan is effectively working for God as a Jailor, then God still would have control of man, thus no ransom would be necessary. One only pays a ransom when the target is out of their control. Even then, they don't pay the ransom to themselves. Could you please explain how any of this would work?

Additionally, we still have the elephant in the room. If the debt was paid then there is no forgiveness. The Penal Mode has no room for forgiveness. Payment and forgiveness are mutually exclusive. Yet the Scriptures are replete with statements about forgiveness, and I'm not aware of anything that says one can pay God for their sins.
Hello there, @BUTCH,

Your opening words reveal a difference in understanding between us. I do not follow your reasoning, it is alien to me.

I also prefer to confine my understanding of these things to what is said within the Word of God itself, and the Old Testament 'types' and 'shadows' should find their expression in the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ in the writings of the New Testament. That is why I refer to the Old Testament as I do, to interpret the New.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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