• Hi Guest!

    You may be aware that "big tech" has been aggressively censoring conservatives on Twitter, Facebook, Google, Instagram, YouTube and other social media platforms. This is tyrannical and suppressive towards Christians and conservatives.

    Please share Talk Jesus community on every platform you have to give conservatives an outlet and safe community to be apart of.

    Support This Community

    Thank You

  • Welcome to Talk Jesus

    A true bible based, Jesus centered online community. Join over 13,000 members today

    Register Log In

The dreaded "works" doctrine.

Loyal
Eph 2:8; For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10; For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

This is the core verse of Calvinism. It's not a bad verse. I actually agree 100% with what is said here. But even so, it is one of the most misunderstood and even misquoted verses in the Bible.
It's a shame that a core doctrine is built on a single verse.

I agree we can't do enough good works to get saved. There is nothing I can do to pay for my sins except to die. The wages of sin is death. I sinned so I have to die.
But Jesus took our place. He died for us. He paid the price for our sins. This is the core of the gospel.
If it wasn't for Jesus, all the good works in the world wouldn't help me.

But there is a slight transition in this passage. I don't get saved by works, but yet after I'm saved, we were created "for good works" which God prepared for us to do.
Well many churches believe good works is wrong. Some believe it to the point so far that if I do any good thing, I'm going to hell. (Talk about getting your doctrine twisted up)

Most people quote this verse with the word "alone" in it. I have 18 Bible and none of them have the word "alone" in them in this verse.
But you often hear we are saved by "grace alone" or by "faith alone". This verse doesn't say alone anywhere. It says not by works.
There are many other things involved in the Christian walk that aren't works. Obedience to God/Jesus/the commandments isn't a good work. But it's still one of the other things that's required.
So even if I never did a good work, it wouldn't be "faith alone".

James seems to oppose this. But is this really the case? Let us take a look.

Jas 2:14; What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:20; But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Jas 2:24; You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

James says works are required. But Paul says we aren't saved by works... so now what? Lets put them both in the same room and let them fight it out and see who wins.
But maybe this isn't the case. If I was going to add the word "alone" to Ephesians 2:9; as many people do. I would add it in a different spot.

Eph 2:9 not as a result of works alone, so that no one may boast.

I deliberately misquoted this verse to prove a point. First that adding a word changes everything, but second works aren't required to initially get saved. But they are required after you are saved.
How can I say that? So many churches teach just the opposite. Yes, I know what some churches teach. But what does the Bible teach?

Hebrews 11 is called the "faith" chapter of the Bible. 1Corinthians 13 is called the "love" chapter of the Bible. Matthew 25 should be called the "works" chapter.

Matt 25:31; "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
Matt 25:32; "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
Matt 25:33; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
Matt 25:34; "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Matt 25:35; 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
Matt 25:36; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
Matt 25:37; "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
Matt 25:38; 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
Matt 25:39; 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
Matt 25:40; "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
Matt 25:41; "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Matt 25:42; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
Matt 25:43; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
Matt 25:44; "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
Matt 25:45; "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


Two groups of people. One group did no good works, the other group did. Which group is righteous, and which group goes away to eternal punishment?

Matt 25:14; "For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them.
Matt 25:15; "To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey.
Matt 25:16; "Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents.
Matt 25:17; "In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more.
Matt 25:18; "But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.
Matt 25:19; "Now after a long time the master of those slaves *came and *settled accounts with them.
Matt 25:20; "The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, 'Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.'
Matt 25:21; "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
Matt 25:22; "Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, 'Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.'
Matt 25:23; "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
Matt 25:24; "And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed.
Matt 25:25; 'And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.'
Matt 25:26; "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.
Matt 25:27; 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
Matt 25:28; 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'
Matt 25:29; "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
Matt 25:30; "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Three servants in the Master's house here. Two of them did things with with what the Master (Jesus) gave to them. They invested what He gave them, increased it,
and He says well done... good and faithful.
The third one, he didn't do anything with what Jesus gave him. He buried it in the ground. He didn't work to increase it in anyway.
Jesus calls Him "wicked and lazy". Jesus says throw him out.

So what is the difference between a good and faithful servant, and a wicked and lazy servant?

... to be continued ...
 
Loyal
So we have "one" single verse that says we aren't initially saved by works. One verse. Just one.

So how many verses are there that say we should do good works?

I already mentioned two passages in Matthew 25 above, I won't repeat them here.

Matt 5:16; "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
John6:28; Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
John 9:4; "We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.
John 14:12; "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.
Eph 2:10; For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Col 1:29; For this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me.
1Tim 2:10; but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.
1Tim 5:10; having a reputation for good works; and if she has brought up children, if she has shown hospitality to strangers, if she has washed the saints' feet, if she has assisted those in distress, and if she has devoted herself to every good work.
1Tim 6:18; Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,
Jas 2:20; But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Jas 2:24; You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
John 6:27; "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."
Acts 13:2; While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
1Cor 3:13; each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
1Cor 3:14; If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
1Cor 15:58; Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.
1Cor 16:10; Now if Timothy comes, see that he is with you without cause to be afraid, for he is doing the Lord's work, as I also am.
Gal 6:4; But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another.
Eph 4:12; for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
Php 2:12; So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
Col 1:10; so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;
Col 3:23; Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men,
2Thes 1:11; To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power,
2Thes 2:17; comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word.

2Thes 3:10; For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order: if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either.
2Thes 3:11; For we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies.
2Thes 3:12; Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to work in quiet fashion and eat their own bread.

1Tim 5:10; having a reputation for good works; and if she has brought up children, if she has shown hospitality to strangers, if she has washed the saints' feet, if she has assisted those in distress, and if she has devoted herself to every good work.
1Tim 5:17; The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching.
2Tim 2:21; Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.
2Tim 3:17; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
2Tim 4:5; But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
Heb 6:10; For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints.

Finally... how God going to judge people?
1Pet 1:17; If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


There are a few more I know I missed, but this should be enough to get the point across. Good works are not a bad thing.
In the case of of the two passages above in Matthew 25, they are absolutely required.

...to be continued.
 
Loyal
Matt 9:37; Then He *said to His disciples, "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few.
Matt 9:38; "Therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into His harvest."

Rom 16:3; Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus,
Rom 16:12; Greet Tryphaena and Tryphosa, workers in the Lord. Greet Persis the beloved, who has worked hard in the Lord.
1Cor 3:9; For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

Matt 20:1; "For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.
Matt 20:12; saying, 'These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.'

Why were you saved? So you could sit around and do nothing? Or are we supposed to witnessing, teaching, sharing Jesus to lost souls?
Is leading others to Jesus a good work or evil work? Should we quit doing it if it is a good work?
 
Active
Eph 2:8; For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10; For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

This is the core verse of Calvinism. It's not a bad verse. I actually agree 100% with what is said here. But even so, it is one of the most misunderstood and even misquoted verses in the Bible.
It's a shame that a core doctrine is built on a single verse.

I agree we can't do enough good works to get saved. There is nothing I can do to pay for my sins except to die. The wages of sin is death. I sinned so I have to die.
But Jesus took our place. He died for us. He paid the price for our sins. This is the core of the gospel.
If it wasn't for Jesus, all the good works in the world wouldn't help me.

But there is a slight transition in this passage. I don't get saved by works, but yet after I'm saved, we were created "for good works" which God prepared for us to do.
Well many churches believe good works is wrong. Some believe it to the point so far that if I do any good thing, I'm going to hell. (Talk about getting your doctrine twisted up)

Most people quote this verse with the word "alone" in it. I have 18 Bible and none of them have the word "alone" in them in this verse.
But you often hear we are saved by "grace alone" or by "faith alone". This verse doesn't say alone anywhere. It says not by works.
There are many other things involved in the Christian walk that aren't works. Obedience to God/Jesus/the commandments isn't a good work. But it's still one of the other things that's required.
So even if I never did a good work, it wouldn't be "faith alone".

James seems to oppose this. But is this really the case? Let us take a look.

Jas 2:14; What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:20; But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Jas 2:24; You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

James says works are required. But Paul says we aren't saved by works... so now what? Lets put them both in the same room and let them fight it out and see who wins.
But maybe this isn't the case. If I was going to add the word "alone" to Ephesians 2:9; as many people do. I would add it in a different spot.

Eph 2:9 not as a result of works alone, so that no one may boast.

I deliberately misquoted this verse to prove a point. First that adding a word changes everything, but second works aren't required to initially get saved. But they are required after you are saved.
How can I say that? So many churches teach just the opposite. Yes, I know what some churches teach. But what does the Bible teach?

Hebrews 11 is called the "faith" chapter of the Bible. 1Corinthians 13 is called the "love" chapter of the Bible. Matthew 25 should be called the "works" chapter.

Matt 25:31; "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
Matt 25:32; "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
Matt 25:33; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
Matt 25:34; "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Matt 25:35; 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
Matt 25:36; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
Matt 25:37; "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
Matt 25:38; 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
Matt 25:39; 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
Matt 25:40; "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
Matt 25:41; "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Matt 25:42; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
Matt 25:43; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
Matt 25:44; "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
Matt 25:45; "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


Two groups of people. One group did no good works, the other group did. Which group is righteous, and which group goes away to eternal punishment?

Matt 25:14; "For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them.
Matt 25:15; "To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey.
Matt 25:16; "Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents.
Matt 25:17; "In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more.
Matt 25:18; "But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.
Matt 25:19; "Now after a long time the master of those slaves *came and *settled accounts with them.
Matt 25:20; "The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, 'Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.'
Matt 25:21; "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
Matt 25:22; "Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, 'Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.'
Matt 25:23; "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
Matt 25:24; "And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed.
Matt 25:25; 'And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.'
Matt 25:26; "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.
Matt 25:27; 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
Matt 25:28; 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'
Matt 25:29; "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
Matt 25:30; "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Three servants in the Master's house here. Two of them did things with with what the Master (Jesus) gave to them. They invested what He gave them, increased it,
and He says well done... good and faithful.
The third one, he didn't do anything with what Jesus gave him. He buried it in the ground. He didn't work to increase it in anyway.
Jesus calls Him "wicked and lazy". Jesus says throw him out.

So what is the difference between a good and faithful servant, and a wicked and lazy servant?

... to be continued ...
Hi B-A-C,

I agree with you that this is one of the most misquoted passages in the Bible. I would also submit that it's often misunderstood. I often hear Christian's quote this passage and say nothing that they do good plays any role in their salvation. What many seem to miss here is that the works Paul is talking about are not just good deeds. They are the works of the Mosaic Law. He's not saying helping old ladies across the street and feeding the poor play no role in salvation, he's saying keeping the Mosaic Law will not save them. Notice he says, you, he's addressing the Ephesians and telling them that the Law won't save them. In Paul's ministry a big problem he faced was that of the Judaizers who were telling his converts that in addition to fatih in Christ it was necessary for them to also keep the Law of Moses. We know that Paul is speaking of the Law by reading on in chapter two. He explains why it is that works won't save them.

Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near.

Notice Paul says that Christ has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, or partition. This is a reference to a wall in the temple that divided the Jew and the Gentile. In the temple there was a wall that the Gentiles could not pass. Only the Jews could enter in past this wall. Paul goes on to say that Christ has abolished the Law of commandments expressed in ordinances. That's the Mosaic Law. So, what he's saying is that they are not saved by works because Christ has done away with the Mosaic Law.

In general I agree with your post. However, I would submit that works do indeed play a role in getting saved. Paul said in Roman's 2 that those who continue in well doing, are seeking eternal life. If those deeds played no role then all of the well doing in the world wouldn't be seeking eternal life.

He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.

On another note, some food for thought. You said that Jesus paid for our sins. If the wages of sin is death and Jesus paid that why do Chrsitians die? Those who hold the ETC doctrine have an even bigger problem because if the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment, how was that paid for? Jesus didnt suffer eternal conscious torment. I know this is another discussion. I just mentioned it because of your statement here.
 
Active
Hi B-A-C,

I agree with you that this is one of the most misquoted passages in the Bible. I would also submit that it's often misunderstood. I often hear Christian's quote this passage and say nothing that they do good plays any role in their salvation. What many seem to miss here is that the works Paul is talking about are not just good deeds. They are the works of the Mosaic Law. He's not saying helping old ladies across the street and feeding the poor play no role in salvation, he's saying keeping the Mosaic Law will not save them. Notice he says, you, he's addressing the Ephesians and telling them that the Law won't save them. In Paul's ministry a big problem he faced was that of the Judaizers who were telling his converts that in addition to fatih in Christ it was necessary for them to also keep the Law of Moses. We know that Paul is speaking of the Law by reading on in chapter two. He explains why it is that works won't save them.

Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near.

Notice Paul says that Christ has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, or partition. This is a reference to a wall in the temple that divided the Jew and the Gentile. In the temple there was a wall that the Gentiles could not pass. Only the Jews could enter in past this wall. Paul goes on to say that Christ has abolished the Law of commandments expressed in ordinances. That's the Mosaic Law. So, what he's saying is that they are not saved by works because Christ has done away with the Mosaic Law.

In general I agree with your post. However, I would submit that works do indeed play a role in getting saved. Paul said in Roman's 2 that those who continue in well doing, are seeking eternal life. If those deeds played no role then all of the well doing in the world wouldn't be seeking eternal life.

He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.

On another note, some food for thought. You said that Jesus paid for our sins. If the wages of sin is death and Jesus paid that why do Chrsitians die? Those who hold the ETC doctrine have an even bigger problem because if the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment, how was that paid for? Jesus didnt suffer eternal conscious torment. I know this is another discussion. I just mentioned it because of your statement here.
 
Loyal
On another note, some food for thought. You said that Jesus paid for our sins. If the wages of sin is death and Jesus paid that why do Chrsitians die? Those who hold the ETC doctrine have an even bigger problem because if the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment, how was that paid for? Jesus didnt suffer eternal conscious torment. I know this is another discussion. I just mentioned it because of your statement here.
I believe this caused a real dilemma for Satan. On one hand Jesus took all of our sins upon Him.

Isa 53:4; Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5; But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.

2Cor 5:21; He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

1Pet 2:24; and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

So from one perspective, Jesus would have had to suffer for eternity, in fact if He died for millions of sinners, He would have had to suffer for millions of eternities.

On the other hand, Jesus Himself never sinned. Yet He died. If the wages of sin is death, and He never sinned, why did He die.
This was a big "oops" on Satan's part.

Heb 9:20; saying, "THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU."
Heb 9:21; And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood.
Heb 9:22; And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Heb 9:23; Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24; For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
Heb 9:25; nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.
Heb 9:26; Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Heb 9:27; And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
Heb 9:28; so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

Your blood isn't good enough to save you. Only Jesus's is. Jesus's blood isn't the same as your blood. He was sinless. One drop of sinless blood is worth billions of trillions of drops of sinners blood.
You would have had to suffer for eternity. Jesus didn't have to, He never sinned.

Rom 5:15; But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
Rom 5:16; The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
Rom 5:17; For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18; So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Rom 5:19; For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
 
Active
I believe this caused a real dilemma for Satan. On one hand Jesus took all of our sins upon Him.

Isa 53:4; Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5; But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.

2Cor 5:21; He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

1Pet 2:24; and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

So from one perspective, Jesus would have had to suffer for eternity, in fact if He died for millions of sinners, He would have had to suffer for millions of eternities.

On the other hand, Jesus Himself never sinned. Yet He died. If the wages of sin is death, and He never sinned, why did He die.
This was a big "oops" on Satan's part.

Heb 9:20; saying, "THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU."
Heb 9:21; And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood.
Heb 9:22; And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Heb 9:23; Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24; For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
Heb 9:25; nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.
Heb 9:26; Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Heb 9:27; And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
Heb 9:28; so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

Your blood isn't good enough to save you. Only Jesus's is. Jesus's blood isn't the same as your blood. He was sinless. One drop of sinless blood is worth billions of trillions of drops of sinners blood.
You would have had to suffer for eternity. Jesus didn't have to, He never sinned.

Rom 5:15; But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
Rom 5:16; The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
Rom 5:17; For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18; So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Rom 5:19; For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
You said,

Your blood isn't good enough to save you. Only Jesus's is. Jesus's blood isn't the same as your blood. He was sinless. One drop of sinless blood is worth billions of trillions of drops of sinners blood.
You would have had to suffer for eternity. Jesus didn't have to, He never sinned.


I've not seen anything in Scripture that would suggest this.
 
Active
Reply#4
Hi B-A-C,

I agree with you that this is one of the most misquoted passages in the Bible. I would also submit that it's often misunderstood. I often hear Christian's quote this passage and say nothing that they do good plays any role in their salvation. What many seem to miss here is that the works Paul is talking about are not just good deeds. They are the works of the Mosaic Law. He's not saying helping old ladies across the street and feeding the poor play no role in salvation, he's saying keeping the Mosaic Law will not save them. Notice he says, you, he's addressing the Ephesians and telling them that the Law won't save them. In Paul's ministry a big problem he faced was that of the Judaizers who were telling his converts that in addition to faith in Christ it was necessary for them to also keep the Law of Moses. We know that Paul is speaking of the Law by reading on in chapter two. He explains why it is that works won't save them.

Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near.

Notice Paul says that Christ has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, or partition. This is a reference to a wall in the temple that divided the Jew and the Gentile. In the temple there was a wall that the Gentiles could not pass. Only the Jews could enter in past this wall. Paul goes on to say that Christ has abolished the Law of commandments expressed in ordinances. That's the Mosaic Law. So, what he's saying is that they are not saved by works because Christ has done away with the Mosaic Law.

In general I agree with your post. However, I would submit that works do indeed play a role in getting saved. Paul said in Roman's 2 that those who continue in well doing, are seeking eternal life. If those deeds played no role then all of the well doing in the world wouldn't be seeking eternal life.
Hello @Butch5,

So far I am with you. Yet I do need clarification regarding this further point that you make (quote):-
Butch5 said:-
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.
* Am I right in thinking that you are referring to Romans 2, and the day in which God, in Christ Jesus, will judge the secrets of men's hearts (Romans 2:16). Referring to those who have not heard the gospel of God concerning His Son the Lord Jesus Christ; but have believed the witness of creation as to His eternal power and Godhead (Romans 1:20), and have sought to please Him by their manner of life , or works, whether Jew or Gentile.
Butch5 said:-
On another note, some food for thought. You said that Jesus paid for our sins.(1) If the wages of sin is death and Jesus paid that why do Christians die? Those who hold the ETC doctrine have an even bigger problem because if the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment, how was that paid for? (1) Jesus didn't suffer eternal conscious torment. I know this is another discussion. I just mentioned it because of your statement here.
* Good points.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
Member
I think we may have to consider Romans 2:6-11 in this discussion.

We cannot work to be saved however, I think we miss a lot in scripture if we think God shall not judge us by our works once we stand before him after this life. Proverbs 24:12, Ecclesiastes 12:14
The unbelievers shall be judged before the great white throne of judgment . Revelation 20:12 That is not where the Christians shall be judged. However, we shall be judged and for our works none the less. “I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds” (Revelation 2:23). And our rewards shall be resultant of that judgment.
Romans 14
1 Corinthians 3
2 Corinthians 5:10
 
Loyal
So far I am with you. Yet I do need clarification regarding this further point that you make (quote):-
@Butch5 agrees on the works part.
What he is disagreeing with is, whether people (sinners/unbelievers) actually burn in hell or not, and if they do, whether it is eternal punishment or not.
 
Active
I think we may have to consider Romans 2:6-11 in this discussion.

We cannot work to be saved however, I think we miss a lot in scripture if we think God shall not judge us by our works once we stand before him after this life. Proverbs 24:12, Ecclesiastes 12:14
The unbelievers shall be judged before the great white throne of judgment . Revelation 20:12 That is not where the Christians shall be judged. However, we shall be judged and for our works none the less. “I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds” (Revelation 2:23). And our rewards shall be resultant of that judgment.
Romans 14
1 Corinthians 3
2 Corinthians 5:10
Hello @Cactus Kitten,

Yes, I agree that we do all have to stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Though those whom God has placed, 'in Christ', will not come into condemnation, for they are covered by the righteousness of God by faith. Yet what we have built on the foundation of our faith, which is Christ Himself, will be judged. Faithfulness will be rewarded, and there are those who will thereby reign with Christ, while others will be denied that honour. Yet all who have been saved by God's grace, on the basis of the sacrificial work of Christ, will have life through His Name.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
Member
Hello @Cactus Kitten,

Yes, I agree that what we do all have to stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Though those whom God has placed, 'in Christ', will not come into condemnation. Yet what has been built on the foundation of our faith, which is Christ Himself, will be judged. Faithfulness will be rewarded, and there are those who will thereby reign with Christ, while others will be denied that honour. Yet all who have been saved by God's grace, on the basis of the sacrificial work of Christ, will have life through His Name.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Our work in the name of Christ at the leading of God is part of the evidence of our Salvation. We are now not servants to our ego's and the world. We are servants of God. Being led by him to do every good work he calls upon us to fulfill.
Too often new Christians especially it seems are led to believe any works at all mentioned are then contrary to the spirit of Christ's redemption teaching. That's not true. Works do not save us. But works are part of being saved. And it is our allegiance to that calling that shall be judged as well. The works we did, the works we refused to do, are all part of what shall be judged and our rewards accordingly.
 
Active
Our work in the name of Christ at the leading of God is part of the evidence of our Salvation. We are now not servants to our ego's and the world. We are servants of God. Being led by him to do every good work he calls upon us to fulfill.
Too often new Christians especially it seems are led to believe any works at all mentioned are then contrary to the spirit of Christ's redemption teaching. That's not true. Works do not save us. But works are part of being saved. And it is our allegiance to that calling that shall be judged as well. The works we did, the works we refused to do, are all part of what shall be judged and our rewards accordingly.
Hi @Cactus Kitten,

Yes, our lives (ie., our walk and witness) should reflect the fact that we have died with Christ, and been raised with Him to walk in newness of life before the Father. That we are dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God, through Christ Jesus our risen Lord.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
Active
@Butch5 agrees on the works part.
What he is disagreeing with is, whether people (sinners/unbelievers) actually burn in hell or not, and if they do, whether it is eternal punishment or not.
I also disagree with the concept of Penal Atonement. That's the idea the Jesus died for sins to appease the wrath of God. Th as ts why I asked why Christian's die if Christ paid for their sins.
 
Active
Hello @Butch5,

So far I am with you. Yet I do need clarification regarding this further point that you make (quote):-

* Am I right in thinking that you are referring to Romans 2, and the day in which God, in Christ Jesus, will judge the secrets of men's hearts (Romans 2:16). Referring to those who have not heard the gospel of God concerning His Son the Lord Jesus Christ; but have believed the witness of creation as to His eternal power and Godhead (Romans 1:20), and have sought to please Him by their manner of life , or works, whether Jew or Gentile.

* Good points.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Hi Chris,

They would be included as would believers. I don't hold or find any evidence that simply believing the Gospel apart from works will lead to salvation
 
Active
I also disagree with the concept of Penal Atonement. That's the idea the Jesus died for sins to appease the wrath of God. Th as ts why I asked why Christian's die if Christ paid for their sins.
Hello @Butch5,

The Lord Jesus Christ paid the penalty of sin, which is death, yes? and rose again for our justification (Romans 4:25). In 1 Thessalonians 1:10 Paul says that Jesus saved us from the wrath to come. Both of these things are true. The wrath of God will be experienced by the children of disobedience as we read in Ephesians 5:6 & Colossians 3:6.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
Active
Hi Chris,

They would be included as would believers. I don't hold or find any evidence that simply believing the Gospel apart from works will lead to salvation
Hello @Butch5,

I'm sorry, but will you please state your case again, because I am confused as to what you actually believe regarding this. Do you believe that salvation is by the grace of God, through faith, on the basis of the sacrificial work of Christ on our behalf? If so where do works fit in? Surely they follow salvation, but are not the means of salvation?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
Active
Hello @Butch5,

The Lord Jesus Christ paid the penalty of sin, which is death, yes? and rose again for our justification (Romans 4:25). In 1 Thessalonians 1:10 Paul says that Jesus saved us from the wrath to come. Both of these things are true. The wrath of God will be experienced by the children of disobedience as we read in Ephesians 5:6 & Colossians 3:6.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Hi Chris,

Both of those are true. However, is there another way to understand them?
If Christ paid the penalty for sin, death, why do Christians die? Why do Christian's pay the penalty also, if it s already been paid by Christ? That doesn't make sense to me.
 
Active
Butch said:-
Hi Chris,

They would be included as would believers. I don't hold or find any evidence that simply believing the Gospel apart from works will lead to salvation
Hi Chris,

Both of those are true. However, is there another way to understand them?
If Christ paid the penalty for sin, death, why do Christians die? Why do Christian's pay the penalty also, if it s already been paid by Christ? That doesn't make sense to me
Hello @Butch5,

The Lord Jesus Christ paid the penalty of sin, which is death, yes? and rose again for our justification (Romans 4:25). In 1 Thessalonians 1:10 Paul says that Jesus saved us from the wrath to come. Both of these things are true. The wrath of God will be experienced by the children of disobedience as we read in Ephesians 5:6 & Colossians 3:6. That 'disobedience' being the refusal to believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God,

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
Active
Hello @Butch5,

I'm sorry, but will you please state your case again, because I am confused as to what you actually believe regarding this. Do you believe that salvation is by the grace of God, through faith, on the basis of the sacrificial work of Christ on our behalf? If so where do works fit in? Surely they follow salvation, but are not the means of salvation?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
In the passage Paul states plainly that those who continue is good deeds are seeking eternal life. That indicates clearly that doing good deeds is a part of obtaining eternal life. He contrasts this with those who don't continue in good deeds who are storing up wrath against themselves. This tells us that in the judgment those good deeds play a role in the outcome of that judgment.
 

Similar threads

Top