The doctrine that paul taught was it against the law, p

[brakelite]

Any theology that claims that Christ's death has done away with the laws of God is bad theology.


John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

I am not a builder, but I've knocked up a few dog boxes over the years. A building inspector would not have been impressed but the dogs loved them. Set me loose on a larger project however like a house and it will soon become apparent that I am not even vaguely familiar with the laws and principles that govern design, architecture, carpentry, engineering or any other associated trade. I would be quite hamstrung by my lack of familiarity and knowledge.A skilled tradesman however, through his knowledge, experience and obedience to the the laws that govern the building trade can erect a house that is safe and habitable, and he may also add his own personal touches to enhance it's appearance.
The same with music. One who keeps to the laws of harmony, rhythm, and melody may add personality to the music and the result is pleasant and acceptable to the ears.
But put someone like me in charge of building a house who doesn't understand and therefore cannot obey the appropriate laws and you will end up with a leaky house that will inevitably fall over in the first wind. Put me in charge of a concerto and you will finish with **** rock.
All walks of life are the same, and are governed by law. Trade, commerce, sport, entertainment, politics, society as a whole. All have laws.
Why is it then that so many Christians balk and doubt when it comes to the kingdom of God? Why is it that so many Christians, when challenged regarding the laws of God as in the Ten Commandments, start making excuses and claim some theological reasoning why they are no longer valid? Shall not God have laws also to govern His kingdom? Yet so many claim that Christians are exempt, or 'free' from the laws of God. Shall the Creator of the universe, who placed such awesome natural laws in place to govern the physical (eg gravity), then choose to dispense with laws to govern the spiritual? Shall the powers and rulers of this world legislate law to govern society yet the God who allows them to rule have no law?
I would like to suggest that God's laws are as valid and as binding ,even more so, than any other law. Even more so for the Christian who claims God as his Father. As can be seen from the examples above, familiarity and obedience to law, enables us to express ourselves with true freedom. The more familiar and experienced we become, the better the craft we practice, the greater the skill we are able to employ. In whatever trade are hobby or pastime we apply ourselves to, if we obey the laws that govern those particular areas of our lives we can then add our own personality to them and we are then leading a more fulfilled, ordered, purposeful and complete life.
Jesus promises an abundant life to all who love and know Him. This abundance can only be fully realised as we obey the laws of God that He has put in place for our good, and our welfare. This obedience I speak of however cannot come from our own strength, but rather through the power of the Holy Spirit working in and through us. The laws of God are no longer on tables of stone, but are written in blood upon our hearts.

True freedom comes only within the confines of law, outside of law freedom becomes chaos, disorder, lawlessness, and in the spiritual realm, death.

 

[David777]

Puzzled...

Now brakelite, would you care to expand on this:

"Any theology that claims that Christ's death has done away with the laws of God is bad theology."

Do you mean the Mosaic Law?

Do you mean the ten commandments?

I am deeply puzzled by your comment and ozells comments!

 

[David777]

Dear ozell.

Your statement:

"So if the law was nailed to the cross that would mean its okay to use the Lords name in vain, put other gods before HIM, make graven images and bow before them, pollute the Sabbath day, steal, commit murder, commit adultery and bear false witness."

Are you a Seventh Day Adventist?

 

[jiggyfly]

Any theology that claims that Christ's death has done away with the laws of God is bad theology.


John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

I am not a builder, but I've knocked up a few dog boxes over the years. A building inspector would not have been impressed but the dogs loved them. Set me loose on a larger project however like a house and it will soon become apparent that I am not even vaguely familiar with the laws and principles that govern design, architecture, carpentry, engineering or any other associated trade. I would be quite hamstrung by my lack of familiarity and knowledge.A skilled tradesman however, through his knowledge, experience and obedience to the the laws that govern the building trade can erect a house that is safe and habitable, and he may also add his own personal touches to enhance it's appearance.
The same with music. One who keeps to the laws of harmony, rhythm, and melody may add personality to the music and the result is pleasant and acceptable to the ears.
But put someone like me in charge of building a house who doesn't understand and therefore cannot obey the appropriate laws and you will end up with a leaky house that will inevitably fall over in the first wind. Put me in charge of a concerto and you will finish with **** rock.
All walks of life are the same, and are governed by law. Trade, commerce, sport, entertainment, politics, society as a whole. All have laws.
Why is it then that so many Christians balk and doubt when it comes to the kingdom of God? Why is it that so many Christians, when challenged regarding the laws of God as in the Ten Commandments, start making excuses and claim some theological reasoning why they are no longer valid? Shall not God have laws also to govern His kingdom? Yet so many claim that Christians are exempt, or 'free' from the laws of God. Shall the Creator of the universe, who placed such awesome natural laws in place to govern the physical (eg gravity), then choose to dispense with laws to govern the spiritual? Shall the powers and rulers of this world legislate law to govern society yet the God who allows them to rule have no law?
I would like to suggest that God's laws are as valid and as binding ,even more so, than any other law. Even more so for the Christian who claims God as his Father. As can be seen from the examples above, familiarity and obedience to law, enables us to express ourselves with true freedom. The more familiar and experienced we become, the better the craft we practice, the greater the skill we are able to employ. In whatever trade are hobby or pastime we apply ourselves to, if we obey the laws that govern those particular areas of our lives we can then add our own personality to them and we are then leading a more fulfilled, ordered, purposeful and complete life.
Jesus promises an abundant life to all who love and know Him. This abundance can only be fully realised as we obey the laws of God that He has put in place for our good, and our welfare. This obedience I speak of however cannot come from our own strength, but rather through the power of the Holy Spirit working in and through us. The laws of God are no longer on tables of stone, but are written in blood upon our hearts.

True freedom comes only within the confines of law, outside of law freedom becomes chaos, disorder, lawlessness, and in the spiritual realm, death.

Sin is no longer your master, for you no longer live under the requirements of the law. Instead, you live under the freedom of God's grace. Romans 6:14

For you have been called to live in freedom, my brothers and sisters. But don't use your freedom to satisfy your sinful nature. Instead, use your freedom to serve one another in love. Gal. 5:13

But when you are directed by the Spirit, you are not under obligation to the law of Moses. Gal. 5:18

 

[Brighthouse]

Hi brakelite! The main problem with the Law brother is found in Hebrews 10:1-4 verse 4 in particular. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin. Hence why Jesus came. Hope this helps.Also just one other point,as you well know,under the law there was very little freedom, if any at all.Hence Galatians 5:13-15 For the whole law is covered in verse 14. Blessing bro.

 

[David777]

Romans.

Your question was as follows:

Paul is talking to the gentiles Roman nation here, correct?

In answer to your question re: the book of Romans,
Paul is speaking about the Jews. If you study Paul's
letter to the Romans carefully, you will see ozell that
Paul is directly addressing the Jews within the Roman
church. This is beyond debate ozell.

 

[David777]

Read this ozell.

Galatians 2:14 (NKJV)

But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?

Think about this passage. Peter a Jew was living not under the Law
but under Grace. That is why Paul corrects Peter.

Why would a Gentile assume they were under the Law. Gentiles
are the uncircumsised, without God's Law. Gentiles are seperate
from Israel ozell.

It is ridiculous to attempt to equate the use of the word Law in the
New Testament with sacrificial law. Why?

Read Galatians 5:3

And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.

Ozell you seperate the Law into different areas, this is not
possible to do. You are required to obey the whole law. This
law of God is a complete package given to the Jews.

 

[David777]

Correct understanding.

You have been set free in Christ, now live the Spiritual life.

This Spiritual life is a life lived in God's love. A life
directed by the Holy Spirit. Constanly becoming
more focussed on eternity and godliness. Less
concerned with this temporal existence.

It is not do this and don't do that. It is not a life
lived in the flesh or more correctly the carnal nature.

Study the New Testament carefully and you will be
truly set free from the law of sin and death.

We live in the New Covenant, not the Old and the
New Covenants. Jewish Law has no residence in a Gentile
Christians life. In fact the Holy Spirit will take up that space.

I Glory in Jesus Christ and only Jesus Christ.

 

[David777]

Yo jiggyfly.

Well quoted as usual.

 

[stephen]

Most of our present day Christian preachers teach against the Law, Prophets and most important Jesus Himself. By making statements such as, "we don't have to keep that old law its been nailed to the cross."


These preachers use the books of Paul to make that statement.

If that were true, that would mean no one would be able to sin.

Why?

Because if there is no law there is no sin. Sin is not imputed or no blame can be accredited to any person when there is no law. B

ut, in I John 3:4 it states, "whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

Scriptures teachers "The law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ"
Gal.3:24.
Were it not for the Law we had never known sin!

If that were true, that would mean no one would be able to sin.

Lawless we would be......indeed. Without hope and without God.

 

[brakelite]

Grace, Obedience, Law, Faith.

Rather than answer each post individually and get into an ongoing debate, I will set froth my position below and pray that all may see the logic and scriptural basis for my thinking. That does not mean that I am either infallible or demanding all to kow tow to my views. I am what I am, and make no apologies, for before my Master I stand or fall.


Of all the problems in doctrine that plague the modern church, the relationship between the four principles of Grace, Obedience, Law, and Faith is the most hotly debated, (considering the sudden interest and influx of opinion in this very thread, and yet the most essential to be understood.
And being so hotly debated reveals the diversity of perception, and the confusion of understanding among Christians today. Babylon, (confusion) is alive and very well within the Christian church. So allow me if I may to shed what I hope is a little light on the subject, with the prayer that we may come to some understanding and avoid the many pitfalls and dangers that can arise from taking to unnecessary and possibly dangerous extremes on the issue.
So let me start at the beginning.
2 Co 5:17 Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
When we consider the above text, we may not perfectly understand the mechanics behind such a change, yet in faith we accept God’s word to be true, and despite the mystery of the process, the result of being a new creature (being ‘born again John 3:3) can be clearly seen in its effects upon the human heart. A change will be seen, in some cases seemingly overnight with the immediate release from habits or addictions which up till then held a vice-like grip upon the life, and in others maybe a more gradual process, but a change nevertheless which in 'Christian-speak' we call sanctification. This change will be seen in the character. The contrast will be clear and distinct. From darkness to light, ignorance to knowledge, unbelief to understanding, indifference and even hostility to faith and love. The change will be seen in the habits, not in the occasional misdeeds or good deeds, but rather in the growing habitual tendencies of words and practice.


Anyone for example is capable of a generous donation to charity, an act of unselfish kindness, even those who are, in their innermost being, quite selfish. Self-esteem may produce the appearance of a well ordered and well mannered life. Athletes with a passion for success can be extremely disciplined and focused. A love for reputation and a desire for honor may inspire one to separate oneself from the very appearance of evil. But it takes the power of God moving in the life of the individual to change the heart from one that seeks to do good things for selfish motives, to one that seeks to do good things simply because they are good. So how are we to know whose side we are on? How are we to know to whom we belong? With whom are our thoughts? Who do we love to talk about? Who has our deepest affections and is the recipient of our warmest praises?

If we are Christ’s, our thoughts are with Him, our desires are for Him, our sweetest moments are spent with Him. We long for His righteousness; we seek His glory, to be filled with His Spirit, to do His will, to please Him in all things.
The beauty of the character of Christ will be seen in His followers. There is no evidence of genuine repentance and surrender apart from a work of reformation in the life. In the heart which has been renewed by divine grace, love becomes the principle and motive of all the actions. 1Jo 4:19 We love, because he first loved us.
Love is of God, for God is love. (1 John 4:16) It is His love that shapes the character, governs the motivations, controls the emotions and passions, overcomes hatred, brings peace and assurance to the fearful, and brings righteousness to the affections.


However, there are two great errors that permeate the church of God, and which endanger the spiritual wellbeing of all, particularly the new convert. The first is that of looking to our own works, trusting in anything that they may do, trusting in our own strength,to bring ourselves into harmony with the principles of godliness. He who is attempting to become holy or righteous by his own good works in keeping the laws of God is attempting the impossible. Please remember I said this and do not later accuse me of legalism. All we do without Christ is corrupted, polluted by sin and inherently selfish. It is the work of God by grace alone through faith alone, that can make us holy, and enable us to stand before Him without condemnation.


The other error, being far more dangerous in that it is becoming far more prevalent in the church today is the belief that Christ releases man from keeping the law of God; the belief that since we receive the grace of Christ through faith alone, then our works or obedience have nothing to do with our redemption.
But please take note dear readers that obedience is not a mere outward compliance, but the service of love. The laws of God are an expression of His very nature; the embodiment of the great principle of love, and therefore is the foundation of God’s government both in heaven and on earth.
Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (Deut. 6:5)
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (Levit. 19:34)
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Please note that love is not a NT concept. It is an eternal concept which the laws of God merely amplified. Neither replaces one, but compliment one another...they are synonymous.

If our hearts are truly and genuinely renewed by the Spirit of God and is being reformed, sanctified, and changed into the image of the character of Jesus Christ; if the Holy Spirit of God, whose very nature is love, is implanted in the soul, will not the laws of God be carried out in the life? If the love of God and the law of God is therefore synonymous, is not the new covenant promise of
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them After those days, saith the Lord: I will put my laws on their heart, And upon their mind also will I write them

thus fulfilled?
And if the law is written upon the heart, will it not shape the life? Obedience; the service, allegiance and faithfulness of love; is the true sign of discipleship. Thus the scripture which says…
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
….takes on a grander and more urgent perspective. Christ Himself is glorified when we show our love for Him be keeping His commandments. Instead of releasing us from the law, and from the obligation of obedience, it is faith and faith only that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ, empowering us to obey all His commandments, for we are partakers of His divine nature through the Spirit Who dwells in us. Thus the just shall live by faith.

The above errors, called legalism on one extreme and cheap grace or antinomianism on the other extreme, rob the church of her victory over sin; rob her of her testimony before a sin sick world looking for answers; rob her of the true joy and peace that comes with the following promise:
Rom 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation for them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and of death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


We do not, we cannot earn our salvation by our obedience, for salvation is the free gift of God, to be received by faith. Obedience however is the fruit of faith.


1Jo 3:5,6 And ye know that he was manifested to take away sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither knoweth him.


If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in us through His Spirit, our feelings, thoughts, purposes, actions, even our very motives will be in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the precepts of His holy law.
1Jo 3:7 My little children, let no man lead you astray: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous:


Righteousness is defined by the standard of God’s holy law, as given in the ten commandments on Sinai. Any so-called faith in Christ which claims freedom from any obligation of obedience to God’s commandments, is presumption, not faith.
Eph 2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;


Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.


Psa 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God; Yea, thy law is within my heart.




Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love


1Jo 2:3-6 And hereby we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoso keepeth his word, in him verily hath the love of God been perfected. Hereby we know that we are in him: he that saith he abideth in him ought himself also to walk even as he walked.


1Pe 2:21 For hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that ye should follow his steps:


Because of Adam’s sin, our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous. Because we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law of God in our own strength. But Christ, through His holy undefiled life and His self sacrificial death on Calvary and His shed blood, offers His righteousness to us in exchange for our sins. His righteousness is imputed to us according to our faith, and we are accounted righteous before the Father and He looks upon us as if we had never sinned. But it doesn’t stop there. By His resurrection, He offers us His life in exchange for our sinful life, that we may walk as He walked, in perfect harmony with the will of God.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein? Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection; knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin; for he that hath died is freed from sin. But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him, knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death no more hath dominion over him. For the death that he died, he died unto sin once: but the life that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Even so reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof: neither present your members unto sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves unto God, as those who are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under law, but under grace.


If we have the very same Spirit that activated and motivated Jesus all His life to honor, obey, and surrender to the will of His Father, how can we not help but do the same? So we have nothing of ourselves to boast. Charges of ‘legalism’ and ‘cheap grace’ from either quarter fall flat. We have no ground for self-exaltation or pride. Our only hope is in the righteousness of Christ imputed to us by His death, and His righteousness imparted to us by His life. All is grace, through faith.
And as we partake of the power offered us freely by His grace, our lives become the holy sanctified examples of love and righteousness that the world so desperately needs to witness. The world sees no hope, and no future for mankind beyond the futile efforts of its vacillating lawmakers and politicians. They see corruption on every hand, and little promise that anything is going to change any time soon. They need us to reflect the holy love of a God who cares deeply for their welfare and their future. A love that doesn’t compromise with sin, that doesn’t seek the temporary entertainment features the world offers, but rather earnestly and sincerely seeks the well being of the lost and is willing to sacrifice self on behalf of those perishing in sin.
The world desperately needs to see Jesus. And it is in you and in me they will first meet Him.
Mat 5:13-16 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost its savor, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a lamp, and put it under the bushel, but on the stand; and it shineth unto all that are in the house. Even so let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.


1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.


Grace, law, faith, obedience. All intimately linked and interdependent. All four concepts are facets of the same diamond.
Grace brings forgiveness for our law-breaking;faith makes that grace a personal reality; grace empowers us to be obedient to the law; faith brings righteousness and conformity to the law in our every-day living.

 

[agua]

God's laws

Tell me brakelite the difference between the ten commandments and the other 6 or 7 hundred laws given to Israel.

 

[ozell]

it is written Mans righteousness before him is keeping the commandments


deuteronomy 6

<SUP id=en-KJV-5088 class=versenum>1</SUP>Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:

<SUP id=en-KJV-5089 class=versenum>2</SUP>That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.


<SUP id=en-KJV-5111 class=versenum>24</SUP>And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.

<SUP>25</SUP>And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

 

[brakelite]

Tell me brakelite the difference between the ten commandments and the other 6 or 7 hundred laws given to Israel.

Yes, there is a distinction between the Law of God and the Mosaic law. This disctinction isn't made by the writers of the Bible, or me, but by God Himself.
The Ten Commandents ........................ The Law of Moses
Called the Law of the Lord....................Called the Law of Moses
Isa 5:24...............................................Luke 2:22....1 Cor.9:9

Written by God on stone.......................Written by Moses in a book
Exod. 31:18;32:16..................................Deut.3:24;2 Chron.35:12

Placed inside ark..................................Placed on side of ark
Ex 40:20...............................................Deut. 31:26

God's law points out sin........................Moses law added 'cos of sin
Rom.7:7; Rom. 3:20................................Gal. 3:19

God's law not grievous..........................Moses law contrary to us
1 John 5:3.............................................Coll. 2:14

Called 'royal law of liberty'.....................called 'law contained in
James2:8.............................................ordinances'...Eph2:15

God's law judges all men........................Moses law judges no man
James2:10-12........................................Coll.2:14-16

God's law spiritual.................................Moses law carnal
Romans 7:14..........................................Hebrews 7:16

God's law brings blessings and peace........Moses law contains curses
Prov.29:18; Psalm119:165.........................Deut.29:20-21;Gal.3:10

God's law perfect.................................Moses law made nothing
Psalm 19:7............................................perfect......Heb 7:19

God's law eternal..................................Moses law temporary
Matt 5:17-19.........................................Coll 2:14; Heb. 8:13

In summary, the Law of God, the Ten Commandments, was given to reveal to man His sin, for as Paul said,
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
To the Galatians Paul said
Ga 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
The above text has been used by many to claim that the Ten Commandments are a bondage. I do think that we should be a lot more careful with our opinions. The Ten Commandments were placed under the mercy seat and inside the ark of the covenant. The mercy seat was representative of the throne of God, thus His law forms a part of the foundation of God's throne in heaven. We insult God and undermine His government and kingdom by so describing the laws by which His kingdom is ruled. When pronouincing the Ten Commandments from the top of Mt Sinai the Lord said:
Exod.20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
He then immediately proceeded to list His Ten Commandments. Did the Lord bring Israel out of bondage and slavery in Egypt to place them under further bondage with His laws?

In Ezekiel we read that Lucifer was a covering cherub before he rebelled. As a covering cherub it was Lucifer's job description to guard, look after and stand over God's throne which had as its foundation, the law. We know this because the tables of stone were placed inside the ark under the mercy seat in the Holy of Holies which was a reflection of the throne room in heaven.
coverereth...05526 ךכס cakak saw-kak’ or ךכשׂ sakak (#Ex 33:22) saw-kak’

a primitive root; v; {See TWOT on 1475} {See TWOT on 1492} {See TWOT on 2259} {See TWOT on 2260}

AV-cover 15, covering 2, defence 1, defendest 1, hedge in 1, join together 1, set 1, shut up 1; 23

1) (Qal) to hedge, fence about, shut in
2) to block, overshadow, screen, stop the approach, shut off, cover


'Cover' means that it was Lucifer's job to protect God's laws, to guard the sanctity of God's law because they were the foundation of God's government until 'iniquity was found in thee'. Iniquity is sin, and sin John tells us is transgression against the law. So Lucifer, whose job it was to defend the law of God ended up turning against it. Thus the first war ever in history was over the law of God. Lucifer desired to be like God. To be like God means to desire His holiness, to be righteous just like God.
Yet Lucifer was attempting to be holy without the law. Sound familiar? Have you ever heard the argument put forth that we can attain the righteousness of Christ, be created in His image, without the law? I don't know about you, but I read of that every time I enter a Christian forum. That is called self-righteousness.
Lucifer, now Satan, took his cause to the garden of Eden. He suggests Eve can be like God. But to do so Eve had to ignore God's law. To disobey His word. Disobedience to the law is once again presented as a way to holiness.
Throughout man's history Satan has warred against the law of God. And the book of Revelation reveals that this war is going to continue right up to the day Christ returns.
Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[ozell]

Paul spoke only what Moses an dthe Prophets wrote

Acts 24:14
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Acts 26:22
Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

Acts28:23
And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

 

[ozell]

so why do we have the pastors of today teaching contrary to what is written in the bible and unsing Paul writings?

Paul taugth what is written in the Law and Prophets

Peter explains it to its simplest form



2 Peter 3:15-17

<SUP id=en-KJV-30538 class=versenum>15</SUP>And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

<SUP id=en-KJV-30539 class=versenum>16</SUP>As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
<SUP id=en-KJV-30540 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>17</SUP>Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

 

[ozell]

Yes, there is a distinction between the Law of God and the Mosaic law. This disctinction isn't made by the writers of the Bible, or me, but by God Himself.
The Ten Commandents ........................ The Law of Moses
Called the Law of the Lord....................Called the Law of Moses
Isa 5:24...............................................Luke 2:22....1 Cor.9:9

Written by God on stone.......................Written by Moses in a book
Exod. 31:18;32:16..................................Deut.3:24;2 Chron.35:12

Placed inside ark..................................Placed on side of ark
Ex 40:20...............................................Deut. 31:26

God's law points out sin........................Moses law added 'cos of sin
Rom.7:7; Rom. 3:20................................Gal. 3:19

God's law not grievous..........................Moses law contrary to us
1 John 5:3.............................................Coll. 2:14

Called 'royal law of liberty'.....................called 'law contained in
James2:8.............................................ordinances'...Eph2:15

God's law judges all men........................Moses law judges no man
James2:10-12........................................Coll.2:14-16

God's law spiritual.................................Moses law carnal
Romans 7:14..........................................Hebrews 7:16

God's law brings blessings and peace........Moses law contains curses
Prov.29:18; Psalm119:165.........................Deut.29:20-21;Gal.3:10

God's law perfect.................................Moses law made nothing
Psalm 19:7............................................perfect......Heb 7:19

God's law eternal..................................Moses law temporary
Matt 5:17-19.........................................Coll 2:14; Heb. 8:13

In summary, the Law of God, the Ten Commandments, was given to reveal to man His sin, for as Paul said,
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
To the Galatians Paul said
Ga 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
The above text has been used by many to claim that the Ten Commandments are a bondage. I do think that we should be a lot more careful with our opinions. The Ten Commandments were placed under the mercy seat and inside the ark of the covenant. The mercy seat was representative of the throne of God, thus His law forms a part of the foundation of God's throne in heaven. We insult God and undermine His government and kingdom by so describing the laws by which His kingdom is ruled. When pronouincing the Ten Commandments from the top of Mt Sinai the Lord said:
Exod.20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
He then immediately proceeded to list His Ten Commandments. Did the Lord bring Israel out of bondage and slavery in Egypt to place them under further bondage with His laws?

In Ezekiel we read that Lucifer was a covering cherub before he rebelled. As a covering cherub it was Lucifer's job description to guard, look after and stand over God's throne which had as its foundation, the law. We know this because the tables of stone were placed inside the ark under the mercy seat in the Holy of Holies which was a reflection of the throne room in heaven.
coverereth...05526 ךכס cakak saw-kak’ or ךכשׂ sakak (#Ex 33:22) saw-kak’

a primitive root; v; {See TWOT on 1475} {See TWOT on 1492} {See TWOT on 2259} {See TWOT on 2260}

AV-cover 15, covering 2, defence 1, defendest 1, hedge in 1, join together 1, set 1, shut up 1; 23

1) (Qal) to hedge, fence about, shut in
2) to block, overshadow, screen, stop the approach, shut off, cover


'Cover' means that it was Lucifer's job to protect God's laws, to guard the sanctity of God's law because they were the foundation of God's government until 'iniquity was found in thee'. Iniquity is sin, and sin John tells us is transgression against the law. So Lucifer, whose job it was to defend the law of God ended up turning against it. Thus the first war ever in history was over the law of God. Lucifer desired to be like God. To be like God means to desire His holiness, to be righteous just like God.
Yet Lucifer was attempting to be holy without the law. Sound familiar? Have you ever heard the argument put forth that we can attain the righteousness of Christ, be created in His image, without the law? I don't know about you, but I read of that every time I enter a Christian forum. That is called self-righteousness.
Lucifer, now Satan, took his cause to the garden of Eden. He suggests Eve can be like God. But to do so Eve had to ignore God's law. To disobey His word. Disobedience to the law is once again presented as a way to holiness.
Throughout man's history Satan has warred against the law of God. And the book of Revelation reveals that this war is going to continue right up to the day Christ returns.
Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

show me where Moses gave a law?

and what you posted is not the law.

here is the law and take note to who gave it


Exodus 20


<SUP id=en-KJV-2053 class=versenum>1</SUP>And God spake all these words, saying,

<SUP id=en-KJV-2054 class=versenum>2</SUP>I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

<SUP id=en-KJV-2055 class=versenum>3</SUP>Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

<SUP id=en-KJV-2056 class=versenum>4</SUP>Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

<SUP id=en-KJV-2057 class=versenum>5</SUP>Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

<SUP id=en-KJV-2058 class=versenum>6</SUP>And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

<SUP id=en-KJV-2059 class=versenum>7</SUP>Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

<SUP id=en-KJV-2060 class=versenum>8</SUP>Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

<SUP id=en-KJV-2061 class=versenum>9</SUP>Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

<SUP id=en-KJV-2062 class=versenum>10</SUP>But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

<SUP id=en-KJV-2063 class=versenum>11</SUP>For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

<SUP id=en-KJV-2064 class=versenum>12</SUP>Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

<SUP id=en-KJV-2065 class=versenum>13</SUP>Thou shalt not kill.

<SUP id=en-KJV-2066 class=versenum>14</SUP>Thou shalt not commit adultery.

<SUP id=en-KJV-2067 class=versenum>15</SUP>Thou shalt not steal.

<SUP id=en-KJV-2068 class=versenum>16</SUP>Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
<SUP id=en-KJV-2069 class=versenum>17</SUP>Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

 

[B-A-C]

This whole thread seems off center. First why is it called "the doctrine that Paul taught"? Isn't all scripture God breathed and God inspired? It's still God's Word no matter who actually wrote it. Either you believe that or you don't.

It isn't "Paul's Gospel". It's the Word of God. It's scripture.

Second why the debate between the 10 commandments and the other laws? All of the OT laws aren't even included in the Bible. Even if they were, many of the OT laws were "updated" or "changed" in the NT.

Some examples of this are the eye for eye verses in Exod 21:24 and Deut 19:21
In Matt 5:38 Jesus says this has changed.

Another example is the unclean animals Jews weren't supposed to eat.
Levit 11:4 and Deut 14:7-8, etc...
In the NT God tells Peter it's OK to eat these animals now. Acts 11:5-9

John 13:34 is a "new" commandment, but really is just many of the 10 commandments rolled up into one. (Matt 22:36-40)

** off on a tangent ** -- A hermit could do the 1st commandment I suppose, he could love the Lord God with all his heart. The next nine, a hermit cannot do. He couldn't kill, or steal from, or covet, ot commit adultery with anyone, because there is no one to do these things to. So on one hand you could "well then he can't break those commandments", well Ok, maybe that's true.. but on the other hand he can't show love to anyone either.

Finally we have the big covenant change. (Mostly in Hebrews chapters 7, 8 and 9)
This is really the difference between the OT covenant and the NT covenant.

Some things change, some things stay the same. Some Jewish laws aren't in the Bible (Torah) at all. Keeping the commandments isn't something we should "have" to do (yes there is grace) but rather something we want to do because we love him. (John 14:15, 23)

 

[brakelite]

Second why the debate between the 10 commandments and the other laws? All of the OT laws aren't even included in the Bible. Even if they were, many of the OT laws were "updated" or "changed" in the NT.

To enquire as to why the debate re the Ten Commandments and then say many of the OT laws were 'updated or changed' as you put it is somewhat misleading. First, none of the Ten Commandments laws have been 'updated or changed', nor altered in any way except by those who would seek to undermine them. But in God's eyes they still stand as sure as the day they were first written on stone 3500 years ago. Jesus words are conveniently forgotten when this debate comes up.
Mt 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Now clearly Jesus isn't speaking of the Mosaic law because many of those laws, particularly those that pertain to the sanctuary service, have indeed passed from the law. So also those laws that directly appertained to Israel as a nation, the civil laws. We must discern between what laws have been fulfilled and those which remain obligatory upon God's people.

Some examples of this are the eye for eye verses in Exod 21:24 and Deut 19:21
In Matt 5:38 Jesus says this has changed.

Take a look at the context of Exod. 21:24 and Deut. 19. God is telling His people that they must act justly in all their dealings with one another. This law is in direct contradistinction to the current traditions that permeated the pagan world at that time. The slightest offense often brought about retaliation and vengeance resulting in death. Wars were instigated over the most minor matters. What God was instituting here was revolutionary. Jesus didn't change the necessity for justice, after all, He still had to suffer death on the cross to meet God's justice upon sinners. What Jesus was doing was adding mercy and love to the mix. By not taking vengeance at all He was revealing God's true nature. We are called to the same character: to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with our God.
To claim that this is a change in OT laws and use this as an example of the passing of the Ten Commandments is a little bit of a stretch don't you think?

Another example is the unclean animals Jews weren't supposed to eat.
Levit 11:4 and Deut 14:7-8, etc...
In the NT God tells Peter it's OK to eat these animals now. Acts 11:5-9

I do think we ought to go to the Bible itself to understand what things mean rather than jumping to all the wrong conclusions. Peter himself, after receiving the vision, did not go straight out and celebrate his "freedom" from the law and buy a cheeseburger. He in fact was not sure what it meant, until it was revealed to him shortly after. Acts 10:17; now while Paul doubted in himself what this vision which he had should mean.....28; God hath shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean. So Peter himself tells us what the vision meant. It was an allegory. Simply that.

John 13:34 is a "new" commandment, but really is just many of the 10 commandments rolled up into one. (Matt 22:36-40)

With this I can agree.
Mt 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

** off on a tangent ** -- A hermit could do the 1st commandment I suppose, he could love the Lord God with all his heart. The next nine, a hermit cannot do. He couldn't kill, or steal from, or covet, ot commit adultery with anyone, because there is no one to do these things to. So on one hand you could "well then he can't break those commandments", well Ok, maybe that's true.. but on the other hand he can't show love to anyone either.

Finally we have the big covenant change. (Mostly in Hebrews chapters 7, 8 and 9)
This is really the difference between the OT covenant and the NT covenant.

Some things change, some things stay the same. Some Jewish laws aren't in the Bible (Torah) at all. Keeping the commandments isn't something we should "have" to do (yes there is grace) but rather something we want to do because we love him. (John 14:15, 23)[/QUOTE]

 

[brakelite]

Second why the debate between the 10 commandments and the other laws? All of the OT laws aren't even included in the Bible. Even if they were, many of the OT laws were "updated" or "changed" in the NT.

To enquire as to why the debate re the Ten Commandments and then say many of the OT laws were 'updated or changed' as you put it is somewhat misleading. First, none of the Ten Commandments laws have been 'updated or changed', nor altered in any way except by those who would seek to undermine them. But in God's eyes they still stand as sure as the day they were first written on stone 3500 years ago. Jesus words are conveniently forgotten when this debate comes up.
Mt 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Now clearly Jesus isn't speaking of the Mosaic law because many of those laws, particularly those that pertain to the sanctuary service, have indeed passed from the law. So also those laws that directly appertained to Israel as a nation, the civil laws. We must discern between what laws have been fulfilled and those which remain obligatory upon God's people.

Some examples of this are the eye for eye verses in Exod 21:24 and Deut 19:21
In Matt 5:38 Jesus says this has changed.

Take a look at the context of Exod. 21:24 and Deut. 19. God is telling His people that they must act justly in all their dealings with one another. This law is in direct contradistinction to the current traditions that permeated the pagan world at that time. The slightest offense often brought about retaliation and vengeance resulting in death. Wars were instigated over the most minor matters. What God was instituting here was revolutionary. Jesus didn't change the necessity for justice, after all, He still had to suffer death on the cross to meet God's justice upon sinners. What Jesus was doing was adding mercy and love to the mix. By not taking vengeance at all He was revealing God's true nature. We are called to the same character: to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with our God.
To claim that this is a change in OT laws and use this as an example of the passing of the Ten Commandments is a little bit of a stretch don't you think?

Another example is the unclean animals Jews weren't supposed to eat.
Levit 11:4 and Deut 14:7-8, etc...
In the NT God tells Peter it's OK to eat these animals now. Acts 11:5-9

I do think we ought to go to the Bible itself to understand what things mean rather than jumping to all the wrong conclusions. Peter himself, after receiving the vision, did not go straight out and celebrate his "freedom" from the law and buy a cheeseburger. He in fact was not sure what it meant, until it was revealed to him shortly after. Acts 10:17; now while Paul doubted in himself what this vision which he had should mean.....28; God hath shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean. So Peter himself tells us what the vision meant. It was an allegory. Simply that.

John 13:34 is a "new" commandment, but really is just many of the 10 commandments rolled up into one. (Matt 22:36-40)

With this I can agree.
Mt 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Note however that this statement, which we call the "golden rule", being simply another way of saying "love thy neighbour", does not do away with the law and the prophets, it is the law and the prophets.

** off on a tangent ** -- A hermit could do the 1st commandment I suppose, he could love the Lord God with all his heart. The next nine, a hermit cannot do. He couldn't kill, or steal from, or covet, ot commit adultery with anyone, because there is no one to do these things to. So on one hand you could "well then he can't break those commandments", well Ok, maybe that's true.. but on the other hand he can't show love to anyone either.

I disagree with you here. A hermit can break every one of the commandments. You do not need to have anyone in proximity to be unreasonably angry with them. (Matt.5:22), nor does he need to have anyone nearby to commit adultery (Matt.5:28), or to covet. By even being a hermit he is disobeying the law by placing himself in a position where he cannot witness to the truth and thus he is not loving his neighbour. James said that if one offends in just one point, he is guilty of all.

Finally we have the big covenant change. (Mostly in Hebrews chapters 7, 8 and 9)
This is really the difference between the OT covenant and the NT covenant.

Some things change, some things stay the same. Some Jewish laws aren't in the Bible (Torah) at all. Keeping the commandments isn't something we should "have" to do (yes there is grace) but rather something we want to do because we love him. (John 14:15, 23)

See thread re old and new covenant.