The Case for a Post Trib Rapture

[Gerbolski]

Better just to live a Christian Life and not worry about the future

Luk 21:34-36
(34) And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
(35) For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
(36) Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

God wants us to be watchful for the signs of his coming, and of course also to be watchful for the attacks of the enemy.

And to be prayerful.

We do not let our hearts be troubled, but we should be watchful.

 

[Gerbolski]

I can see why many would select 70 AD. I don't. I select 33 AD.

The tribulation of seven years is not a period of God abandoning the Jews. Two prophets are given to them. Isa 54:7-8 For a brief moment I abandoned you. Therefore the 'two days' can end 2033 AD.

Why 2033 and not 70 AD?

1. The crucifixion fulfils the ultimate prophetic event

A - Daniel 9:26: “Messiah shall be cut off”
B - Jesus’ death marks the climactic fulfilment of Old Testament prophecy
C - From a theological perspective, this is the pivot point of God’s covenant plan for Israel and the nations
D - Israel rejects the Messiah. Anyone who does this is isolated from God.
E - A temple falling in 70 AD is irrelevant as Jesus ushered in a new covenant. To the Jews first and then to the Gentiles.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

2. Crucifixion = spiritual “end of sacrifice” in reality

Hebrews 10:10-14 emphasizes that Jesus’ sacrifice replaced the entire sacrificial system spiritually, even if the Temple rituals continued until AD 70. Sacrifices became obsolete on the cross, because God accepted Christ once and for all. Hosea’s “without sacrifice” condition should be interpreted spiritually, not literally.

3. Crucifixion = the covenant-breaking moment

AD 70 is the human consequence of rejection, but the actual covenant rupture happened at the moment Israel’s leaders crucified the Messiah (Matthew 27:25: “His blood be on us and our children”).

4. Typological argument: the cross is the “first day”

Jesus’ resurrection on the third day is the prototype for Israel’s national resurrection. If the cross is Day 1, the resurrection is Day 3, consistent with Hosea 6:2. This would make the two-day period Israel’s era of spiritual blindness between Messiah’s rejection and final restoration.

5. The theological emphasis

AD 70 = political, historical, national rupture

Crucifixion = spiritual, covenantal rupture.

Very interesting arguments, now if we just do a general equation, from 33 A.D., and 2000 years after, it brings you to 2033, if you do the 70 A.D. thing, and go 2000 years after, it brings you to 2070.

But things to consider in all of this, is how much the calendars have been messed up, and also you have to consider leap years, and in the past how some changes were made, not all years were 365 days (although most were), and I know that in the early church, changes were made such as around the 300's, and I cannot remember all the details, but changes were made.

But the way the bible seems to show things, is within a 360 day year range.

Rev 12:6
(6) And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Rev 12:14
(14) And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Now these 2 verses speak of the same event, one is 1,260 days, and one is a time (1), and times (2), and half a time (1/2), which adds to 3 1/2 years, and in these 3 1/2 years, there are 1,260 days, which gives you 360 day years.

360 + 360 + 360 + 180 = 1,260.

So how does God see these 2000 years, does he see it within 360 day years ?

So if days are cut down to 360 day years, then it cuts down the years within the 365 day year period.

I do not think we can get the exact timeline 100%, but we can get at least a round about estimate.

Plus or minus a certain amount of years.

All I know is that, only 2 views that I can see, could be right on the calculation of the 2000 years, either counting from A.D. 70, or the death of Christ A.D. 33.

Now this is just a guesstimate and not to be taken as a definite thing, so how many years of difference would there be in 2000 years, between a 360 day year calendar, and a 365 day year calendar ?

Could it be as much as 15 to 30 years ?

Say we minus 15 years to 2070, that gives us 2055, but say we minus it by 30, it gives 2040.

Now according to a general calculation I found online, it says this:

(In 2000 years, a 360-day calendar would have 2000 years x 360 days = 720,000 days, while a 365-day calendar would have 2000 years x 365 days = 730,000 days. The difference would be 730,000 - 720,000 = 10,000 days, which is approximately 27.4 years)

Now I am not saying this as a definite rule, as it must be this or that, just looking at the probabilities, Jesus' death could be right, or A.D. 70 could be right.

 

[Gerbolski]

The 2000 years

Mat 24:2-3
(2) And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
(3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:30
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Now Matthew 24 covers events from the time of the destruction of the temple (A.D. 70), unto the 7 year tribulation up to the second coming.

Could this be the 2000 year period ?

Or does it start here:

Mat 27:50
(50) Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Hmmm, share away guys if you have more thoughts on this.

 

[KingJ]

Very interesting arguments, now if we just do a general equation, from 33 A.D., and 2000 years after, it brings you to 2033, if you do the 70 A.D. thing, and go 2000 years after, it brings you to 2070.

But things to consider in all of this, is how much the calendars have been messed up, and also you have to consider leap years, and in the past how some changes were made, not all years were 365 days (although most were), and I know that in the early church, changes were made such as around the 300's, and I cannot remember all the details, but changes were made.

But the way the bible seems to show things, is within a 360 day year range.

Rev 12:6
(6) And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Rev 12:14
(14) And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Now these 2 verses speak of the same event, one is 1,260 days, and one is a time (1), and times (2), and half a time (1/2), which adds to 3 1/2 years, and in these 3 1/2 years, there are 1,260 days, which gives you 360 day years.

360 + 360 + 360 + 180 = 1,260.

So how does God see these 2000 years, does he see it within 360 day years ?

So if days are cut down to 360 day years, then it cuts down the years within the 365 day year period.

I do not think we can get the exact timeline 100%, but we can get at least a round about estimate.

Plus or minus a certain amount of years.

All I know is that, only 2 views that I can see, could be right on the calculation of the 2000 years, either counting from A.D. 70, or the death of Christ A.D. 33.

Now this is just a guesstimate and not to be taken as a definite thing, so how many years of difference would there be in 2000 years, between a 360 day year calendar, and a 365 day year calendar ?

Could it be as much as 15 to 30 years ?

Say we minus 15 years to 2070, that gives us 2055, but say we minus it by 30, it gives 2040.

Now according to a general calculation I found online, it says this:

(In 2000 years, a 360-day calendar would have 2000 years x 360 days = 720,000 days, while a 365-day calendar would have 2000 years x 365 days = 730,000 days. The difference would be 730,000 - 720,000 = 10,000 days, which is approximately 27.4 years)

Now I am not saying this as a definite rule, as it must be this or that, just looking at the probabilities, Jesus' death could be right, or A.D. 70 could be right.

A lunar year = 354 days.
Scripture mentions a month is 30 days = 360 day year.

But Jews were told two things.

1. Psalm 104 19 — “He made the moon for appointed times” and 2. Exo 23:15 requires Passover in spring.

This required Israel to use lunar - solar years. Which ends up with an average of a 365 days per year every 19 years.

Scripture like Daniel's 70 weeks and those already quoted mentioning two days of abandonment and third day restoration, these are verses directed to the Jews. God would use their calendar and not another.

 

[Gerbolski]

A lunar year = 354 days.
Scripture mentions a month is 30 days = 360 day year.

But Jews were told two things.

1. Psalm 104 19 — “He made the moon for appointed times” and 2. Exo 23:15 requires Passover in spring.

This required Israel to use lunar - solar years. Which ends up with an average of a 365 days per year every 19 years.

Scripture like Daniel's 70 weeks and those already quoted mentioning two days of abandonment and third day restoration, these are verses directed to the Jews. God would use their calendar and not another.

Yep no doubt God would not use the Roman calendar, but what he established.

 

[YeshuaFan]

I invite someone to give a rebuttal here. Perhaps "The Case for a Pre-Trib Rapture".

and see if it stands up Biblically. But I would ask if you do this.. don't use speculative scriptures...
For example..

Rev 3:10 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

In the context of this verse... there is no mention of tribulation or rapture. People speculate it's about the tribuaton.. but in context it isn't.

All of the verses I gave above specifically mention the rapture and the tribulation in the context they are used.

One can build a case for pre/mid/post based upon the scriptures, interesting was that many of th early church fathers seem to held to a form of Historical premill eschatology

 

[B-A-C]

One can build a case for pre/mid/post based upon the scriptures, interesting was that many of th early church fathers seem to held to a form of Historical premill eschatology

I prefer scripture over other's opinions.

 

[B-A-C]

One can build a case for pre/mid/post based upon the scriptures,

Haven't seen anything close yet.

 

[Bill]

May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

The whole time that I have been at Talk Jesus, every single time I talk about a spiritual experience. People will constantly ask me where is that in Scripture.

In reverse of this statement, I have asked repeatedly to show me one instance where God has taken people off the planet because of their circumstances, or their persecution in the world. Have we one time experienced, or the Hebrews or the Israelites experience one time where they were removed off planet because of the horrendous experiences of being children of God?

Because all through the scripture every single time that God's people are experiencing some insane persecution, God doesn't take them off planet.

The Israelites were slaves for 400 years before Moses came along, and what did he do or shall I say what did God do through Moses. He took them out into the desert for 40 years. That was their salvation from 400 years of slavery.

Noah built in Ark, technically you could say he was off planet because he was floating on the water. But he landed on top of a mountain and had to start all over again.

When the Persians took over, the Israelites lived and survived and went through it all. When the Romans came, they survived and went through it all.

When the Christians began, they were tortured put into the arena and fed to lions. They survived and went through it all.

When Nazi Germany was slaughtering the Jews. And the Jews experienced their Holocaust. They went through it all they survived.

So what makes you, the Believers of the pre-tribulation mid tribulation post-tribulation raptures before the end of everything and Jesus return. What makes you think that you deserve to be off planet.

Based on the evidence of scripture, we're going to go through it all together and we're going to survive, or at least some of us are going to survive.

 

[B-A-C]

Since no one reads the OP's anymore...

Matt 24:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
Matt 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you.

Matt 24:9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

Matt 24:13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

Matt 24:15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
Matt 24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Matt 24:22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Jesus says don't let anyone mislead you. They "WILL" deliver you to tribulation.
He says.. "When you see the abomination of desolation". Then He says THIS will be th greatest time of tribulation the world has ever known.
He even says "for the sake of the elect" .. those days will be shortened. Why are the elect still here?

But here is the crux on the entire passage.

Matt 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Here is the part you can't get past... "AFTER" the tribulation.. the Jesus will send forth His angels to gather up the elect.
Not before. After. After you see the abomination of desolation. After the days are cut short. After, not before.

 

[B-A-C]

Mark says exactly the same thing.

Mark 13:24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25 AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27 "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

"after" that tribulation, not before. Jesus will gather together the elect. Not before, after.

In fact here is no verse, not a single one.. that says "before".

 

[B-A-C]

2Thes 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2Thes 2:2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2Thes 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Thes 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

With regard to when Jesus.. and our "gathering together".. Let no one deceive you.
IT will NOT happen until the "man of lawlessness" (beast) in revealed and takes his place in the temple.

When does this happen? Before the tribulation? No. In fact the abomination of desolation mentioned in Matt 24:15 and Mark 13:14 can not
happen until the temple is built.

"Our gathering together" to Him, does not happen before this happens.

Just read the Bible as it is. Don't add events that aren't there. There is no mention of a rapture before this.

 

[B-A-C]

Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev 20:3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

"This" .. is the first resurrection. There is no resurrection before this (well, Jesus was resurrected). The first resurrection doesn't
happen until "after" the tribulation, not before. The church can't be raptured before this, if this is the "first" resurrection.

Don't invent an event that isn't in the Bible, just read the Bible "as is".

 

[B-A-C]

1Cor 15:50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
1Cor 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1Cor 15:53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

When does this happen? It tells us right here. "at the last trumpet", not the first, the last.
There are of course 7 trumpets blown during the tribulation, do we just ignore those? But for sake of argument, lets say we do.

Matt 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

So then, if the church is already gone (at the last trumpet), what do we call this? The after the last trumpet, trumpet?
No, this is the last trumpet "when they (the angels) will gather the elect. There is no other last trumpet. This is the only one.

Don't invent other raptures and events that aren't in the Bible, just read it as it.

I am still waiting for a single verse.. (just one).. that says "before" the tribulation.

 

[B-A-C]

Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.

How can the beast "make war" with the saints if they are already gone?

Dan 7:21 "I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
Dan 7:22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.
Dan 7:23 "Thus he said: 'The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it.
Dan 7:24 'As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 'He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

Daniel says the same thing. But how could this happen if the church is already gone?

Rev 9:3 Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4 They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
Rev 9:5 And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man.

"only the men who do NOT".. have the seal of God on them... so apparently there will be people with the seal of God on them during this time.

Who are these people is the church is already gone? When did the church leave if the last trumpet hasn't sounded yet?

 

[B-A-C]

When I look at the passages side by side, the flow seems pretty straightforward.

In 1 Thessalonians 4, the word “caught up” is harpazō—that’s describing how we’re taken, not when.

But in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27, Jesus says the angels will gather the elect, and the word there is episynagō—to gather together into one place. Paul uses the same root word in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 when he talks about “our gathering together to Him” (episynagōgē).

Jesus places that gathering after the tribulation, and Paul says it won’t happen until the man of lawlessness is revealed. So it looks to me like the “caught up” in 1 Thess 4 is simply the way the same gathering happens—not a different event at a different time.

And the New Testament keeps emphasizing that in Christ there isn’t a separate timeline for Jews and Gentiles. Ephesians 2 says He made the two into one new man. Galatians 3 says there is no Jew or Greek in terms of belonging to Christ. Romans 11 shows one olive tree, not two. So when Jesus talks about “the elect,” I don’t see a reason in the text to split that into different groups with different moments of salvation or different gatherings.

If I’m missing something in the passages themselves, I’m open to seeing it—but that’s the pattern I see when I just follow the wording.

 

[Gerbolski]

Part 1 (the trumpets)

There is a lot of scriptures to the contrary but some ignore those verses.

Mar 13:26-27
(26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
(27) And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Here it does not say caught up or gathered up, the word up is not there.

Now how do the ones get gathered from heaven, for it says from the four winds of heaven ?

Rev 19:14
(14) And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The angels in some form, will gather the ones in heaven to come down, and they shall come down on white horses, to the earth, and not to heaven.

What about the one's one earth ?

Isa 66:19-20
(19) And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
(20) And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

Now how shall all of this work out , I do not know, but some of the Jews that survive the tribulation, will go and declare Jesus' glory among the Gentiles that have survived and bring people to Jerusalem, how will the angels be involved in the gathering of the people to Jerusalem ? I do not know, but Mark 13 shows they will be involved, and other scriptures talk about this gathering as well..

What happens at the second coming ?

Well the ones from the 4 winds of heaven come down on white horses with the Lord, and shall go to Jerusalem, and the ones on earth will also be gathered to Jerusalem.

Second coming Mat 24:30-31 (30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rapture 1Th 4:15-17 (15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

In the second coming verses, it speaks of angels with a great sound of a trumpet, but in the rapture verses, it speaks of The Lord himself coming with the trump of God, and if you look at the old testament, there were all kinds of different trumpet sounds, and all of them for different purposes, well concerning the 7th trumpet in Revelations, it is a specific judgment trumpet, and it shows the specific judgments that come out of that trumpet, and the second coming is not mentioned in reference to that trumpet.

The 7 trumpets are unleashed during the last half of the first 3 1/2 years, of the 7 year trib period.

The ones that get unleashed in the last half are the seven vials.

So if one tries to use this last trumpet as pointing to a post trib rapture, then that is not a very good argument and contradicts.

In the second coming verses in Mark, there is nothing mentioned about meeting the Lord in the air, but we can see by other scriptures, the saints coming down with Jesus on white horses, and people on earth being gathered to Jerusalem, which this is were they will be going.

The second coming trumpet, is sound by angels, and have nothing to do with the 7th trumpet judgment, it is a separate trumpet, and what results after this trumpet is sound ? Well first of all the saints come down on horses, judgment takes place on earth among the ones who rebel against God, and all the people who become believers are gathered to Jerusalem.

But concerning the rapture trumpet, it is also a different trumpet, it is Jesus that has this trumpet, and it actually talks about meeting him in the air, and us being with him, and this is not a judgment trumpet, but a calling of believers to meet him in the air, so they can get glorified bodies.

Why is it called the las trumpet ? There might be a few reasons, maybe it is some type of last calling before being caught up (which results in being caught up), but there is no relation to the 7th trumpet judgment in revelations, which does not show the rapture event at all, in this trumpet.

And does the last trump refer top consecutive soundings ? Or to just simply, a last days sounding, or the last trump ?

 

[Gerbolski]

In reverse of this statement, I have asked repeatedly to show me one instance where God has taken people off the planet because of their circumstances, or their persecution in the world. Have we one time experienced, or the Hebrews or the Israelites experience one time where they were removed off planet because of the horrendous experiences of being children of God?

Enoch and Elijah were caught up out of the earth and went to heaven.

 

[B-A-C]

Here it does not say caught up or gathered up, the word up is not there.

Does it need to be? I say they never go up.

(14) And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

You are assuming these are humans? Where does it say that?

Isa 66:19-20
(19) And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
(20) And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

Speculation at best, not realted to the tribulation time frame in any way. But even so, this would be the New Jerusalem, "after" the millennial reign, so your time line still doesn't work.

 

[Gerbolski]

Speculation at best, not realted to the tribulation time frame in any way. But even so, this would be the New Jerusalem, "after" the millennial reign, so your time line still doesn't work.

This is at the beginning of the millennial reign which the second coming starts that time frame, not after the millennial reign, the new Jerusalem comes down on the new earth.

Does it need to be? I say they never go up.

1Th 4:15-17
(15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Joh 14:3
(3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


It says concerning the rapture they are caught up, and meet him in the air, no interpretation needed.

You are assuming these are humans? Where does it say that?

Rev 19:8
(8) And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Rev 19:14
(14) And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Jud 1:14-15
(14) And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
(15) To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.