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The Case for a Post Trib Rapture

Isa 66:15-21
(15) For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
(16) For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
(17) They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
(18) For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.
(19) And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
(20) And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
(21) And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.

The things mentioned from verses 18 to 21, are events that immediately follow the second coming.

After it mentions these preceding events, God mentions the new earth.

Isa 66:22
(22) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

The New Jerusalem comes on the new earth, and not the millennial earth.

Rev 21:1-2
(1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
(2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
 
Yep one second coming, were he comes on earth, and one were he comes but not on earth, to receive believers in the air, were they come to be with him were he came from, which is heaven.
 
were they come to be with him were he came from, which is heaven.

Were does it say that? Does it say armies, or humans/saints? Are you adding something that isn't there?

But lets go with this, and say you're right. Even if these are humans... how do you explain...

When does Satan and his army get destroyed, before or after the millennial reign? When does the millennal reign happen?
Before or after the tribulation?
 
Were does it say that? Does it say armies, or humans/saints? Are you adding something that isn't there?

But lets go with this, and say you're right.

When does Satan and his army get destroyed, before or after the millennial reign? When does the millennal reign happen?
Before or after the tribulation?
I compared scripture with scripture that shows the word saints on both Revelations and Jude, and who gets clothed with linen which represents the righteousness of the saints, well the saints.

And Jude is another witness to what it says in Revelations.

The millennial reign happens after the 7 year tribulation, and Satan gets cast in the bottomless pit for the 1000 year reign, and gets loosed for a little season, and then receives his final judgment.
 
shows the word saints on both Revelations and Jude,

By all means,please post verses and translation. I would like to see this.

Hopefully it isn't here.

Rev 7:13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

These people come "out of" the tribulation, so obviously, they aren't gone before the tribulation.
How could they be martyred in the tribulation, if they weren't around to be martyred?
 
By all means,please post verses and translation. I would like to see this.
ok I will repost what I already did, it is KJV.

Rev 19:8
(8) And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Rev 19:14
(14) And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Jud 1:14-15
(14) And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
(15) To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

In verse 8, it mentions the word saints.

Why would the angels be clothed with the righteousness of the saints ?
 
Rev 19:8
(8) And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Rev 19:14
(14) And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Jud 1:14-15
(14) And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
(15) To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

In verse 8, it mentions the word saints.

Why would the angels be clothed with the righteousness of the saints ?

Ok, I'll by they are humans in those verses, thanks for making it clear.
But your timing is still off. Does this happen pre-trib? If so, how are there any bad guys left during the tribulation?
 
That is the second coming of Christ, which happens at the end of the 7 year tribulation period, and it says this:

2Th 1:8-9
(8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
(9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

So Jesus takes vengeance on all unbelievers at this time, that know not God, and obey not the gospel.

So the ones that go in the millennial reign, will be people who become believers, but as time goes on in the millennial reign, people will be born, and some will rebel, especially at the end of the millennial rein.

I do not see the second coming and rapture as the same event.

And of course in a pre-trib rapture, there will be all kinds of bad guys on the earth left, in the 7 year tribulation.
 
Part 2 (the differences between rapture / second coming)

Are there differences between the second coming, and the coming rapture ?

Second coming

Rev 19:12-15
(12) His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
(13) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
(14) And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
(15) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Jud 1:14-15
(14) And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
(15) To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

2Th 1:8-9
(8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
(9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Mar 13:26-27
(26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
(27) And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Mat 24:30-31
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Rapture

1Th 4:15-17
(15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Joh 14:2-3
(2) In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
(3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

1Co 15:51-52
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Php 3:20-21
(20) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
(21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.













On both the rapture side, and the second coming side, they both mention a type of coming.

Now one thing to consider is this, now of course we know about when the first coming of Christ to earth was, which was when he came as a man on earth, being born of a virgin, and growing as a man, to eventually die for our sins.

And most Jews of the time, missed his first coming, many were thinking that their Messiah would come reigning as a king, so they missed the parts that spoke of the suffering servant, and verses such as are found in Isaiah chapter 53.

Well what about the 2 comings of the rapture and the second coming ?

Well the second coming in it's many verses, show Christ coming to earth a second time, which in a certain verse it says that his feet shall touch the mount of olives.

But in the rapture verses, it does not mention Christ coming to earth, but rather coming to get his church, that when he comes, which will be from heaven, he will : "...come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am (heaven), there ye may be also (John 14:3)".

In the second coming verses it speaks of judgment, unto the ungodly, but in the rapture verses it mentions none of these things.

In the second coming verses it speaks of angels with a trumpet, in the rapture verse it mentions Jesus with the trumpet.

In both the rapture verses, and second coming, it speaks of a gathering, but concerning the rapture, they (believers) meet him in the air, but in the second coming verses, it does not mention the air, nor does it mention being caught up, but in the second coming the saints come down from heaven, but the ones on earth well they gather to Jerusalem.
In the second coming verses, it mentions nothing about vile bodies changing, but in the rapture verses it does.

Both the second coming verses and rapture verses, mention totally different events, and not the same events, the events do not match up as being the same.

The descriptions are not even the same.

Here are 2 interesting verses, side by side:

1Co 15:51
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Th 4:17
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Both of these verses, speak of the alive being changed, that is the ones in Christ that are alive on earth, at the coming rapture.

Thessalonians mentions "the ones that are alive and remain", and Corinthians mentions " we shall not all sleep", meaning that some will be alive at this time of our bodies changing from corruptible to incorruptible.

But the second coming verses mention none of these things.

So now what has to be figured out, is when will the rapture event happen ?

And is there an old testament verse that mentions the rapture of the church, and shows things with clarity ?

And what about the first resurrection, what does that fully entail ?

Remember that there is a resurrection of the just, and the unjust.

Hmmmm.
 
None of the verses you posted say they are separate events, not a single one.

In fact...

1Co 15:51-52
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

According to your verse, it doesn't happen until the "last trumpet".
When is the "last trumpet?

Matt 24
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His [x]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Now Matt 24 doesn't mention which trumpet it is, could be the first, second, who knows.
But 1Cor 15:52 HAS to be the "last". So it's either the same one in Matt 24:31, or it's after it. (hence after the tribulation).
 
None of the verses you posted say they are separate events, not a single one.

In fact...



According to your verse, it doesn't happen until the "last trumpet".
When is the "last trumpet?

Matt 24
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His [x]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Now Matt 24 doesn't mention which trumpet it is, could be the first, second, who knows.
But 1Cor 15:52 HAS to be the "last". So it's either the same one in Matt 24:31, or it's after it. (hence after the tribulation).
They are not describe the same way, for in the second coming verses, you do not see Jesus with a trumpet, and you do not see any description of being caught up, nor corruptible bodies changing into incorruptible bodies.

And the last trump is a different kind of trumpet which results in an event were the corruptible bodies puts on incorruption, the last trump does not have to mean what we may think, it may be the last of that kind of trumpet blast, or a last days trumpet, remember that even in the old covenant, they had different soundings of trumpets for different purposes, not all the same, but whatever the case, you did present an alternative, were you say that it can happen maybe just right after the second coming, although I will cover stuff on that, in a bit, which I do not see it as that.

And things you have to consider is them that get caught up, and get glorified bodies, are the dead in Christ, and the alive that remain, which we shall be as the angels, but the nations and Israel will not be as the angels, they will still give birth.
 
And the last trump is a different kind of trumpet which results in an event were the corruptible bodies puts on incorruption, the last trump does not have to mean what we may think, it may be the last of that kind of trumpet blast, or a last days trumpet, remember that even in the old covenant, they had different soundings of trumpets for different purposes, not all the same, but whatever the case, you did present an alternative, were you say that it can happen maybe just right after the second coming, although I will cover stuff on that, in a bit, which I do not see it as that.

This may be the worst excuse post I have ever seen.
:)


If the Bible doesn't work for you, make stuff up. It's not "that" trumpet, it's a different trumpet.
Trumpet doesnt always mean trumpet? Really? Just take the Bible as it is. Just take it how it reads.
Don't add anything, don't take away anything, and don't change anything.
 
Well look throughout the old testament, they had all kinds of trumpets for different purposes, do you want proof of that ?

And what results from the trumpet that Jesus has, a change from corruptible to incorruptible.

We cannot make one trumpet be part of every trumpet.

One trumpet is for judgment, another one is for the resurrection at the rapture.

Study it out about the various trumpets of the old, this is not new stuff.

The trumpet of Jesus is associated to the resurrection of the body, the trumpet at the second coming is associated with the second coming and judgment on earth.

So then why is the resurrection called the last trumpet, and we have to know which last trumpet, and why is it saying this, and in what way, maybe there are other scriptures we can compare with that reveals things all by itself.

Scripture confirms scripture, so let us see what it says in whole, which I will get to in greater detail.

And you think it is unreasonable to think it through, but if it is a trumpet that happens after the second coming, were is your proof ?

Because there is none.
 
Stuff on trumpets

Old testament trumpets


Num 10:2
(2) Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps.

Jos 6:4
(4) And seven priests shall bear before the ark seven trumpets of rams' horns: and the seventh day ye shall compass the city seven times, and the priests shall blow with the trumpets.

Now a good explanation of the various old testament trumpets, with verses, is found here: https://christiananswers.net/dictionary/trumpets.html

Various ones had various uses, according to how God wanted them to be used.

An interesting verse is this:

1Co 14:8
(8) For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?


I just looked throughout bible verses that mention the word trumpet, and trumpets, and the ones used for the second coming, and the rapture.

Here are second coming verses:

Mat 24:30-31
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Zec 9:14-15
(14) And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
(15) The LORD of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.

So there might actually either be one or two trumpets at the second coming, hmmm, do not recall seeing this Zechariah verse about the Lord blowing the trumpet at the second coming but if it says so, then it is so.

So the angels come with a great sound of a trumpet, and gather together the ones in heaven, which will follow CHRIST ON WHITE HORSES,
and the ONES ON EARTH, are gathered to Jerusalem, so their trumpet might be a gathering trumpet, and Jesus the Lord's trumpet is followed by Judgment, so it might be a judgment trumpet.

Now unto rapture verses:

1Th 4:15-17
(15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Co 15:51-52
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

In the rapture verses, there is nothing about angels coming with a great sound of a trumpet, but just the Lord, but in the second coming verses, I guess it shows both angels and the Lord.

And 2 trumpets seem to be for gathering, and one for judgment.

But the gathering on the rapture side, shows being caught up in the air, and being changed, but the second coming gathering verses show nothing of these things, the word caught up is not there, the word in the air is not there, nor getting a changed glorified body.

The rapture gathering is followed with a resurrected body, the second coming gathering shows nothing via getting a resurrected body.

I can see why people would think that it is a post trib rapture, by certain words, but in whole as we will see, with even an old testament rapture verse, it will cause people to really consider things, if one is open to seeing it.

Because to me, I personally bear witness with the pre trib rapture, but I do see the arguments on the other side of the coin.
 
Part 3 (what is the rapture)

Well the rapture is called the resurrection.

And the bible mentions 2 types of resurrections, in regards to what we are talking about.

Act 24:15
(15) And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

So there is the resurrection of the just, which refers to the rapture, and there is the resurrection of the unjust, which points to the second death.

Here are verses on the 2nd resurrection which goes along with the second death event.


Rev 20:13-14
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


So what takes place, event wise, is that first there is the 7 year trib period, followed by the second coming, then there is the millennial reign, and after the millennial reign there is the great white throne of judgment.

This is when the second resurrection and second death take place.


For at that time, the ones in hell will show up before God, with their spirits, souls, and their bodies which were in the grave.

They resurrect before God at the great white throne of judgment, which his the second resurrection, and get cast in the lake of fire, which is the second death.

Now Concerning the rapture it says this:

1Co 15:12-13
(12) Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
(13) But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:


1Co 15:42-44
(42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
(43) It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
(44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


1Co 15:51-52
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So we can see that the rapture is known as a resurrection, it is the resurrection of the just, and it will involve the dead in Christ (resurrection of the dead), but also the alive in Christ (we shall not all sleep).

It is also known as the first resurrection, both the alive in Christ and the dead in Christ, shall partake of the first resurrection, and there will be a kind of first-fruits of it, and others that will follow.

The ones who partake of the first resurrection get glorified bodies.

Now I will cover things in more details of the when is it going to take place, I am trying to keep things as short as I can.

So here we see what the 2 resurrections are, which was my goal on this post.
 
Enoch and Elijah were caught up out of the earth and went to heaven.
May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

Well in truth Elijah road a chariot up to heaven. I know apples and oranges.

But Elijah has come back so to speak or at least the spirit has. And even when the Witnesses are taken back up to heaven, what about the vast majority.

I have not seen any indication that a vast majority will leave planet Earth before the tribulation. As BAC has gone through the scripture to explain the second coming of Jesus, where we are to meet Jesus in the clouds.

Also BAC has explained that in the scripture it's quite clearly stated that we will all go through the tribulation. Of course unless you die first.
 
Part 4 (the tribulation period)

For the most part, most agree that the tribulation period last 7 years, although I have heard some say it is only 3 1/2 years, , although the last 3 ½ years will be greater the first .3 ½ years.

Let us get into this time frame.

Dan 9:27
(27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Now this one week is representative of 7 years, it refers to prophetic days, which in one week there are 7 days, which points to seven years, but in the middle of the tribulation period, the Antichrist breaks his covenant.

Rev 11:3

(3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.​


Rev 12:6

(6) And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.


Revelations 11:3 refers to the first 3 ½ years, and Revelation 12:6 refers to the last 3 ½ years.

This time period is also known as this:

Jer 30:5-7
(5) For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
(6) Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
(7) Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.


It speaks of the time of Jacob’s trouble, which speaks of the tribulation period.

And in the tribulation period, there will be many things that will occur, but some of the main things will be the pouring out of the seven seals, seven trumpets and seven vials.


The first 3 ½ years, the 7 seals get released, and afterwards the 7 trumpets, which brings us to the middle of the trib period, and in the last half the 7 vials get released.

This time period of the 7 year tribulation period is known as the wrath of God, but the second coming also is known as the wrath of God.

Rev 6:16-17
(16) And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
(17) For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


This is during the time of the sixth seal, which at this point in time, some on earth shall realize that the great day of his wrath has come.

The word wrath in regards to events of the tribulation period, is found all over the book of Revelations.


So it is known as the wrath of God.


Now some will use these next verses so to say that, there is no pre-trib rapture:


Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.


The argument is that since saints are mentioned in this passage, that shows that the church is still here, now this is speaking of the middle point of the tribulation period, and people will get saved in the tribulation period, even through the 2 witnesses.


Just because people get saved in the tribulation period, does not deny a pre-trib rapture.

And in truth, the particular word “church” is not mentioned in verses that speak of the tribulation period, in the book of Revelations.


So the 7 year trib period has been covered, so now I will finally get to the timing of the resurrection.
 
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