Member
No matter what any mere human or spirit does or says, not one human will be lost from us given You from before the foundation of universe.
Thanks God/Jesus not one can be subtracted or booted from Your kingdom
Loyal
It doesn't matter what people say, but it does matter what the Bible says.
Matt 13:24; Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
Matt 13:25; "But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.
Matt 13:26; "But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
Matt 13:27; "The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
Matt 13:28; "And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves *said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?'
Matt 13:29; "But he *said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
Matt 13:30; 'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"
This parable starts off by saying "The kingdom of heaven is like...."
a field with both wheat and weeds in it. At some point the tares will be removed (from the kingdom)
Jesus explains this parable a few verses later
Matt 13:36; Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."
Matt 13:37; And He said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,
Matt 13:38; and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
Matt 13:39; and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.
Matt 13:40; "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Matt 13:41; "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
Matt 13:42; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 13:43; "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
Verses 41-42 say...
they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire;
Apparently not everyone in the kingdom... stays in the kingdom.
Another parable in the same chapter...
Matt 13:47; "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
Matt 13:48; and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
Matt 13:49; "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
Matt 13:50; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Again.. it starts off with... "the kingdom of heaven is like..."
This this time the kingdom is like a net full of fish, both good fish and bad fish, at the end, the bad fish are removed from the kingdom.
In the passages about the seven churches of Revelation, 5 of the churches are told to repent, or else....
Rev 2:5; 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.
Rev 2:16; 'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.
Rev 2:22; 'Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.
Rev 2:23; 'And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.
Rev 3:3; 'So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.
Jesus is going to make war with them, throw them on a bed of sickness, remove their lampstand, etc.... These letter are written the church(es).
There is much more, along these lines.
Matt 13:24; Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
Matt 13:25; "But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.
Matt 13:26; "But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
Matt 13:27; "The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
Matt 13:28; "And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves *said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?'
Matt 13:29; "But he *said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
Matt 13:30; 'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"
This parable starts off by saying "The kingdom of heaven is like...."
a field with both wheat and weeds in it. At some point the tares will be removed (from the kingdom)
Jesus explains this parable a few verses later
Matt 13:36; Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."
Matt 13:37; And He said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,
Matt 13:38; and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
Matt 13:39; and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.
Matt 13:40; "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Matt 13:41; "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
Matt 13:42; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 13:43; "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
Verses 41-42 say...
they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire;
Apparently not everyone in the kingdom... stays in the kingdom.
Another parable in the same chapter...
Matt 13:47; "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
Matt 13:48; and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
Matt 13:49; "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
Matt 13:50; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Again.. it starts off with... "the kingdom of heaven is like..."
This this time the kingdom is like a net full of fish, both good fish and bad fish, at the end, the bad fish are removed from the kingdom.
In the passages about the seven churches of Revelation, 5 of the churches are told to repent, or else....
Rev 2:5; 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.
Rev 2:16; 'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.
Rev 2:22; 'Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.
Rev 2:23; 'And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.
Rev 3:3; 'So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.
Jesus is going to make war with them, throw them on a bed of sickness, remove their lampstand, etc.... These letter are written the church(es).
There is much more, along these lines.
Loyal
John 10:28; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:29; "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Two observations here... first of all no one can "TAKE" them from Jesus. But Jesus Himself can decide not to keep them.
Second, no man can "take" my wife from me... but I can't stop her from walking away if she really wants to.
God didn't "lose" any of the Jews traveling through the desert to Canaan, but still most of them didn't make it into Canaan.
John 10:29; "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Two observations here... first of all no one can "TAKE" them from Jesus. But Jesus Himself can decide not to keep them.
Second, no man can "take" my wife from me... but I can't stop her from walking away if she really wants to.
God didn't "lose" any of the Jews traveling through the desert to Canaan, but still most of them didn't make it into Canaan.
Loyal
Greetings,
I find this to be very strange since the Written Word of God does not back this.
Not even John 10:28 backs this.
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me,
This scripture, even though man tries make it say no one can ever lose their salvation, truth is, it does not.
Far to many other scriptures tell us if we continue in the faith and do what is written and so forth.
This scripture is saying to those who are walking in Christ, continuing onward in the things of God, no one can snatch you away.
Truth is.....
One can, forfeit, throw away or walk away from God by many avenues. The Spirit will try to draw you back but if you continue to refuse to turn back, eventually you will be given over to your desire and be eternally separated from God the Father.
If this were not so, then we would not need anything other then John 3:16. We could continue in sin following after the god of this world and then Jesus would get us in.
That kind of thinking makes what Jesus did for us kind of foolish and a slap in the face.
No friend scripture tells us where much is given ,much is expected.
Galatians 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Blessings in Christ
Member
Few understand the kingdom is at hand.
Loyal
How does this fit with these four of several verses that indicate otherwise?
Hebrews 6:4-6 (CJB)
4 For when people have once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become sharers in the Ruach HaKodesh, 5 and tasted the goodness of God’s Word and the powers of the ‘olam haba — 6 and then have fallen away — it is impossible to renew them so that they turn from their sin, as long as for themselves they keep executing the Son of God on the stake all over again and keep holding him up to public contempt.
1 Timothy 1:18-20 (CJB)
18 This charge, son Timothy, I put to you, in keeping with the prophecies already made about you, so that by these prophecies you may fight the good fight, 19 armed with trust and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, some have made shipwreck of their trust; 20 among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander. I have turned them over to the Adversary, so that they will learn not to insult God.
1 Corinthians 9:27 (CJB)
27 I treat my body hard and make it my slave so that, after proclaiming the Good News to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
2 Peter 2:20-21 (CJB)
20 Indeed, if they have once escaped the pollutions of the world through knowing our Lord and Deliverer, Yeshua the Messiah, and then have again become entangled and defeated by them, their latter condition has become worse than their former. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the Way of righteousness than, fully knowing, to turn from the holy command delivered to them.
Member
Matthew 19:26, Mark 10:27, Luke 18:27 God's sheep know His voice. Jesus will receive those of humanity given Him. Those of us whom He knows will not be told depart.
Loyal
Ok But....How do the four verses I gave you fit with your 'teaching'?
Loyal
Simple Answer they don't.
Now let me ask a question.
How can any Scripture fit in with perverted teaching?
Loyal
I was hoping our friend would see his mistake on his own. But you're right.
Loyal
Seems they don't want to see it.
Preacher Preacher scratch my ear and tell me something i want to hear.
Loyal
God doesnt boot people out, it is people who boot themselves out. Via rejecting God.
Look at Satan, , look at Judas. They both had there names in Heaven , yet they both rejected God
Member
I studied the KJ Bible and sought the One crucified, you're all free to continue to trust in your own understanding and that of the other mere humans' with whom you associate and the spiritual influences to which you have been exposed and i will continue trusting in my Lord and my God Jesus and sharing the influence He has provided us. Thanks be to you alone Lord God/Jesus, for the freedom you have provided that the judgement of other mere humans has no bearing when we stand before You, for You have looked upon our hearts.
Loyal
Lol. I read and reread your letter. Mere humans as you put it. GOD never speaks in such a belittling manner of His children. Even if His children are sinful, they are still His children.
May i suggest, that you as well speak of Gods children in the same manner.
Active
Nobody can lose their salvation, agreed. God is not a fool who makes the mistake of grafting a devil into His family. He removed the devil and made no mistake doing that.
Given before the foundation of the universe, disagree.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. This is one of those verses that we cannot read in isolation. We know from the rest of scripture that God is impartial and accepts the whomsoever will come to Him. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Hence, the context of Eph 1:4 is simply that those who will be with God in heaven will be with Him through Jesus. We are chosen to be in Jesus.
Active
This is not speaking to a Christian. A Christian has not ''tasted'' eternal life. They have eternal life John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
The context of Heb 6:4-6 is concerning more those who would be sanctified by coming under Christian teaching. Accepting it. Not opposing it. Kind of like an unbelieving husband is sanctified. 1 Cor 7:14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
This is a warning that these people who reject Jesus after having ''tasted'' Him, may not ever want to taste and accept Him again.
Active
A Christian cannot make '''shipwreck''' of their faith. To become a Christian you '''have to lay your life down'' Matt 16:24. Perform the greatest act of love possible John 15:13. Only if you have done this are you judged acceptable Jer 17:9-11 and chosen to be in Christ / get a revelation of Jesus by the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:3, Matt 16:16-17.
Imagine me taking a bullet for you in the army. I survive. You invite me into your house after the war. I then rape your wife. You kick me out. The first thing you will grasp is that I clearly took that bullet by accident. Now God, does not invite anyone in by accident!
This verse you quoting is speaking to those in attendance who have one foot in and one foot out. Not truly Christians. Remember Paul never isolated Christians in attendance from non Christians. His preaching on sin did that. Verses just like the ones you are quoting. This verse is speaking to those in attendance who have made clear to all that they have now got both feet out of Christianity.
Active
Disqualified from preaching. Not losing salvation!
Think of the thief next to Jesus on the cross. Accepted Jesus and then met Him in paradise that same day. Now Paul did exactly the same on his horse whilst riding to Damascus. Yet, God chose to then use Paul. Use Paul to preach and serve him.
If there was a real risk of Paul (who was taken to heaven and shown a lot more then the thief next to Jesus), losing his salvation. Paul would have said, ''take me to heaven God, I qualify now, I don't want to lose that''. Paul did not say that to God. God is also not partial in that he would use Paul at the risk of him losing his salvation whilst not doing so with the thief. God knew He could use Paul, God knew He would not put Paul through anything he cannot handle. God ''knows'' His people.
If we can lose our salvation, why are you not racing your car down mountains with no security barriers? Taking part in dangerous sports? If you can't do such without the feeling of tempting God, well then would you jump in to the tiger cage that that one guy fell into? Commit a selfless act. So that you can....die and go straight to heaven. Not stay and be used / suffer persecution and trials and tribulations at the risk of losing your salvation.
Please man. We who are here on earth have a greater reward waiting for us then the thief on the cross. The belief that we can lose our salvation if we are truly saved, is just insane.
Active
Please see my reply in post # 16.
It is just more statements that are not evidence of a Christian being spoken of. Example, a Christian has not ''escaped pollutions'', they are delivered from sin and new creations in Christ. A Christian does not merely ''know of God'', we are part of His family.
The last phrase in that scripture is now just the coffin in your argument. ''Would have been better for them not to have known the Way of righteousness'' . Oh really? So, if I have lead one person to the Lord through my servitude to Him, it would be better if I had never ''known the way of righteousness''. If I give the last glass of water to keep alive a dying enemy in the desert, at the risk of losing my own life, yet sin thereafter, it would be better if I had not known ''the way of righteousness''. I think not.
This verse is speaking to those people that know Christianity. Have tasted it. Have wet a foot in it. Have dunked their hands into it. Have tolerated it. Are Matt 7:22 type Christians. It is not referring to true Christians. Those who have truly repented of sin and been judged as worthy by God. Chosen to be grafted in to His family.
Active
I would argue that a belief that one can lose their salvation is more perverted.
1.It implies God is partial in that he keeps some on earth to be used for longer at the greater risk of them losing their salvation.
2. It implies God is a fool who makes mistakes of grafting people into His family. Did God also make a mistake kicking the devil out?
3. It is the reason many still take part in discussions of works verse grace. It pushes a works based salvation mentality.