Submission, Where/If to draw the line

[mamabean]

I've spent a lot of time reading the forums here and I find myself posting because A. I agree with most everything I've read posted here on this topic and B. I am in desperate need of some advise. Please know I am not trying to whine or gossip, I just don't know how to ask without sharing a little about my life...

I am very pregnant and not long after we found out we were expecting my husband had a large list of very very strong opinions on how we should handle the pregnancy. Although in some cases I strongly disagreed with him (and in some cases the doctors disagreed with him) I am a strong believer in submitting to my husband, and since he could not be talked out of anything I set about the task of finding someone who would attend the birth with so many unusual requests. After weeks of prayer and research I managed to find health care providers who would tolerate his preferences (which I presented as our preferences at his request). I thought at last I could relax and enjoy my rapidly growing baby belly, but now he is asking for something I am struggling with. He is asking that we refuse to get a birth certificate and social security number for our child. In our state it is explicitly illegal to not obtain a birth certificate and I believe we will be barred from leaving the hospital without a ss#. While the previous choices he order me to make as his submissive wife I managed to accept, this one seems different. Would it be sinful for me to disobey him in order to keep the laws of my state? He says the laws are wrong, but it would be me as the birth mother who would face criminal charges. I haven't felt good about his other decisions, but this just feels out right wrong. It has caused me a lot of emotional and physical pain so far to follow his wishes and I don't take this lightly, but I just don't know if I can keep this up, especially if it might mean being seperated from my baby soon after it is born. Has anybody else been put in this position before? Does anyone have any advise to offer. Thanks

mamabean

 

[Katzie]

Wow

It's one thing to be a submissive wife, but you are not suppose to break the law or sin just because your husband asks you to.
Do you have a Church you both attend? If so, I would strongly advise that you both go in and speak to the Pastor of the Church and go over all of his requests. If he is requesting things that are not in keeping with the Scripture then he needs the Pastor to let him know.
I will pray for you!!!!!

God Bless,

Katzie

 

[Coconut]

Hello mamabean

You sound like a praying woman, so you simply need to continue to pray for your husband, and your baby. There is no one here who can tell you where to draw the line, but God surely knows just what to do to resolve this issue. I`m sure there are many a wife and mothers here, who could testify about the wonders God performed for them, when they called on Him ~ amen!

Maybe God even performed a few wonders for some of our husbands too. lol (sorry cant have the men scowling at my reply)

Hallelujah He`s a prayer answering God!


Php 4:6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.


Pe 5:5 Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you.

 

[rlowe]

Acts 5:12-32 (New International Version)
The Apostles Heal Many
12The apostles performed many miraculous signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon's Colonnade. 13No one else dared join them, even though they were highly regarded by the people. 14Nevertheless, more and more men and women believed in the Lord and were added to their number. 15As a result, people brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats so that at least Peter's shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by. 16Crowds gathered also from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing their sick and those tormented by evil[a] spirits, and all of them were healed.
The Apostles Persecuted
17Then the high priest and all his associates, who were members of the party of the Sadducees, were filled with jealousy. 18They arrested the apostles and put them in the public jail. 19But during the night an angel of the Lord opened the doors of the jail and brought them out. 20"Go, stand in the temple courts," he said, "and tell the people the full message of this new life."
21At daybreak they entered the temple courts, as they had been told, and began to teach the people.

When the high priest and his associates arrived, they called together the Sanhedrin—the full assembly of the elders of Israel—and sent to the jail for the apostles. 22But on arriving at the jail, the officers did not find them there. So they went back and reported, 23"We found the jail securely locked, with the guards standing at the doors; but when we opened them, we found no one inside." 24On hearing this report, the captain of the temple guard and the chief priests were puzzled, wondering what would come of this.

25Then someone came and said, "Look! The men you put in jail are standing in the temple courts teaching the people." 26At that, the captain went with his officers and brought the apostles. They did not use force, because they feared that the people would stone them.

27Having brought the apostles, they made them appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest. 28"We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name," he said. "Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man's blood."

29Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than men! 30The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead—whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree. 31God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. 32We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

 

[rlowe]

-
Additionally, I asked my mom, who has given birth to 5 children, about the birth certificate & Social Sercurity number.
Mom said, refusing to get a birth certificate and social security number for your child is not even an option, the baby gets them immediately after coming out into the world.
-

 

[mamabean]

Thank you all for the encouragement and advise. I will continue to pray. I realize birth certificates and ss# are issued at the hospital, but they will need our siginatures and personal information, I think this is where my husband wants us to refuse. I keep trying to find out from the hospital exactly what actions and how soon they would be taken against us, but everyone I speak to seems to freak out and simply repeat the laws I already know. I guess at this point I'll just have to trust God and keep on praying! (Probably pretty good rules to run your life by there.)

mamabean

 

[Janette]

Have you asked him ... why?

Your husband's duty is to act in the best interest of you and your child.

My mother took communion at an Eastern Orthodox church which uses wine (with alcohol...not grape juice), all through her pregnancy. Her doctors would have preferred she not do so, but she believed that the wine was the Blood of Christ and would bring me no harm.

I'm alive and healthy.


By contrast, I knew a woman whose companion (he was not her husband but was the father of her child) demanded that she continue to smoke marajuana with him through her pregnancy. He convinced her that there was this great anti-pot conspiracy in the medical community and that it actually was harmless. I don't know why, but she agreed.

Their child was *not* born healthy.


I suspect the difference has nothing to do with the chemical natures of either marajuana or alcohol and everything to do with the intent behind those who partook of them.

-------

I agree with what everyone has said about you continuing to pray - but I feel it prudent to reinforce the advice of those who suggest you seek councel.

Your husband needs the instruction of a Christ centered minister. He may also need an intervention - something has a hold on him and has made him fearful of normal government proceedings. There is no place for fear in a Christ-lead life....so if he's fearful...who's he following?

There is no good reason to refuse a birth certificate or social security number. God's power over your family and your baby is in no way deminished by a piece of paper. The social security number is *not* the sign of the Beast.

The only reasons I can come up with to refuse such things center around wako conspiracy theories, not Christ.

Get your husband some help.

 

[HisFollower]

response to Submission..

“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”
“Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven”
(Matthew.5:3,10)
“Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: but rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ´s sufferings..”
(I Peter.4:12,13a)
“But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered awhile, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.”
(I Peter.5:10)
“Submit yourselves to every ordinance(ie: law or regulation) of man for the Lord´s sake…” “For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men.”
(I Peter.2:13a & 15)

 

[ushalk]

ok this is only laws that are brought about in having your baby in a hospital. god saye to do his will above all others. regardless of mans law or not mans law. if you wish to have your baby without a birth certificate and social security # then look around for a hand maid to deliver your child. i do agree with your husband and i am sure that we see the same problems with these 2 items. they are both like tracking devices and the future of this country is in serious trouble. i will write more on this later.

 

[BlueDiamond]

The problem is that this child when he/she becomes an adult and not having a birth certificate or a SS# i believe can cause many problems.

Wont be able to leave the country
Wont be able to get a job
Wont be able to buy a home
Wont be able to buy a car
Wont be able to have a credit card
Wont be able to get any sort of loan
and the list goes on!

Just about everything, i believe requires a SS#

I also think that the child will not be able to attend public schools or college.

 

[Bambi]

I believe that in everything we should submit to our husbands. 1 Peter 3:1 says, "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;" When talking to your husband be humble don't demand he listen to reason. He will realize his mistake from what people are saying he'll find out when the baby is born that he won't have a choice. If you keep bring it up it will only make him mad. God is in control he knows everything. I can't find the passage maybe you know this verse or someone else does. But I believe there is a verse that talks about God controls the heart or mind of the king. He can do the same for your husband. Pray, ask God to change your husband. If you try it will only bring problems.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings mamabean,

can I ask if your husband is Christian? I can't remember seeing here that he is.

It would help me answer you better.

I went through some of this about 19 years ago, and would be happy to share some points for you and your husband.

Bless you ....><>

Br. Bear


and whatever happens, let the peace of God in Jesus Christ the Lord rule your heart and mind... and let Him fill you with all hope in believing and give you His joy ><> (you need all these... and baby (Babybean?) does, too!)

 

[ushalk]

bluediamond, the same is going to be when the mark of the beast comes if we do not accept it. so does this mean that we should accept the mark of the beast, so that we can have all of these and to buy and sell.

whether we want to face the facts or not soon the hate for christians is going to grow and when the persecution starts hard in this country one of the ways they are going to track us down is the bc or ss#.

do not let yourselves be deceived. and just because that man does not want his child to have these things does not mean that he is not saved.

remember people gods will needs to come first in all matters regardless of mans laws or rules. i feel this family needs to pray about this decision and we need to pray for the lord to help them in this situation.

 

[BlueDiamond]

bluediamond, the same is going to be when the mark of the beast comes if we do not accept it. so does this mean that we should accept the mark of the beast, so that we can have all of these and to buy and sell.

I understand what you are saying and where you are coming from. But a SS# and BC is not the mark.

Romans 13: 1-7

1.Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2.Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3.For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4.For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5.Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6.This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7.Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

To pay taxes or anything, you need a SS#

Mathew 6:34
So don't worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring its own worries. Today's trouble is enough for today.

 

[ushalk]

like i said let them seek the will of god on this. tis will become a tracking device for christians in due time. romans 13 what all churches and seminary schools use for we are above you and you are to submit to us and give us control over you. please read the rest of the bible concerning following authority of this world. see people use this romans 13 and make it god rather than the will of god in our lives being god.

 

[BlueDiamond]

please read the rest of the bible concerning following authority of this world. see people use this romans 13 and make it god rather than the will of god in our lives being god.

I have been reading and studying the bible for many years. I am not saying one way or the other that this is right or wrong that is our Lords decision. As i was pondering on this question these are the scriptures that popped into my head. :embarasse

 

[ushalk]

sorry, i wasnt trying to come down on you. this passage is used a lot in the form to control rather than the truth of what it is stating.

 

[BlueDiamond]

Speaking of Gods Will and concerning tracking devices:

Mathew 13:9-11

9. <woj>“When these things begin to happen, watch out! You will be handed over to the local councils and beaten in the synagogues. You will stand trial before governors and kings because you are my followers. But this will be your opportunity to tell them about me.</woj> 10. <woj>For the Good News must first be preached to all nations. </woj>11. <woj>But when you are arrested and stand trial, don’t worry in advance about what to say. Just say what God tells you at that time, for it is not you who will be speaking, but the Holy Spirit.</woj>


Gods will is for us to proclaim our belief in Jesus not to run and keep it hidden.

Mathew 16:24-25

24.Jesus said to his disciples, If any of you wants to be my follower, you must put aside your selfish ambition, shoulder your cross and follow me. 25.. If you try to keep your life for yourself, you will lose it. But if you give up your life for me, you will find true life.

Lets say that this child is born in a home and there is no BC or SS#. If this child gets sick, there will be no hospital care. I believe it is in Gods will for this child to be well. Also all of the consequences for not abiding by the law in this case i do not believe is Gods will. I believe that more harm will come out of this then good.

 

[ushalk]

i am not saying that we are to hide out from proclaiming him. a good book to read concerning this is tortured for christ. you can receive a free copy of this book from vom. Persecution.com - The Voice of the Martyrs all you have to do is contact them and tell them that you would like to receive a copy of this book.

however you make a very healthy point as far as hospital care if needed. i will pray about this and get back to you.

 

[BlueDiamond]

a good book to read concerning this is tortured for christ. you can receive a free copy of this book

Thank you, i just ordered a copy