Should Women Be Pastors and Elders?

[amadeus2]

Women are to be silent in the Church? And where then is the Church or what is it? Is it not wherever 2 or 3 are gathered together in His name so that He is in the midst of them? And then who here is a part (or expects to be a part) of the Bride of Christ? Is the Bride not to consist of both natural men and natural women? Is not the Church a Woman, consisting of men and women?

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If all of us, natural men and natural women, are (or are to be) part of the Bride are we not all in the woman's role to be silent in the Church? Only the man speaks, but who is the man that speaks other than a person who has God's Word in his mouth, be he male or female in the flesh? So who is to speak other than Jesus, the Head? Whose Word was coming out through the mouth of Jesus and every prophet or prophetess presented to us in scripture? Then again, while they may not be great in number but there are certainly examples of natural women in scripture having the role (or a type or shadow of it) of one of the five ministries mentioned in Eph 4:11.

"And while he yet spake with them, Rachel came with her father's sheep: for she kept them." Gen 29:9

Rachel was a shepherd(ess)... or in other words a pastor! Deborah was a judge and/or a prophetess. When the preacher who is man sits silently and listens to another speak God's Word, even if it a natural woman giving a testimony, is not that preacher for those silent moments, in effect, a part of the Woman remaining silent in the Church?

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[farout]

I have not read anyone address what paet culture played in women were to be silent. I bleieve in that culture that being silent was the instruction. But It does not mean it for today. I do not believe we are to carry that over into today.

I fully expect that there will be some to say I am wrong. If anyone wants to carry this into a new thread it's ok by me.


gatout

 

[james1523]

I have not read anyone address what paet culture played in women were to be silent. I bleieve in that culture that being silent was the instruction. But It does not mean it for today. I do not believe we are to carry that over into today.

I fully expect that there will be some to say I am wrong. If anyone wants to carry this into a new thread it's ok by me.


gatout

I believe it was the pagan gentile culture that was causing the issue of women teaching in the church, not that Paul's instructions were only for this particular church due to cultural reasons. Paul had the same policy for all the churches (1 Cor 14:33).

Paul had to correct this by affirming the truth of God's creation and bringing the Jewish and biblical perspective.

Paul's position on women teaching and silence:
1 Tim 2:12
I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

Paul's reason for his position, that woman was created second to man:
1 Tim 2:13
For Adam was formed first, then Eve.

Paul blames the woman for being deceived and becoming a sinner:
1 Tim 2:14
And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

and then continuing in 1 Tim 3 Paul describes the characteristics of an overseer.. husband of one wife etc.. Paul does not allow for female overseers here.

Paul's instructions were not based upon culture but upon God's creation order and the fact that woman was the one who usurped the authority of the man by contacting satan without the covering of her head (Adam), and thus was deceived.

It was through the woman that death and sin came to the human race and it is through the woman's seed that the solution, Christ, came.

 

[sintheticg]

Sometimes this gets "iffy" in situations of worship leaders or women teaching college classes (when does a child become a man?) quote B.A.C.
It mentions that there were women singers in the temple of God somewhere in the O.T.(not sure where, don't have concordance with me). Why do we think that it is right for women to be teaching children in Sunday school or schools? I am just not sure the Bible has anything to say about there being a difference between boys and men i.e. it is the woman's responsibility to teach the boys, but the man's to teach the young men. In the Pentateuch God talks about the fathers speaking of Him to the children all day long. I think it may be that if the men took responsibility to teach the boys, we might have stronger spiritual young men. I just have never found Scriptural basis for this ideaology. I do believe that all women must teach their children, but why are they the only ones (for the most part) that have any influence on children when they are in the most character forming years of their lives? Men? Anything to say about this?

hello anya, i believe the jewish bar mitzvah shows 2 pictures, the age in which a child becomes a man, and also an age in which he is now responsible for his own soul. In the new testament all fall short of the glory of God, all are sinners, and all deserve hell, does that mean a child can't go to heaven without being saved? I certainly hope not, otherwise I would not get to meet my unborn child in heaven. I believe this picture is of the age you are now accountable for yourself.

Every Father should be a spiritual leader of his house, he should teach scripture to his children. He should lead by example by having daily prayer and devotion time. parenting is a job for both parents, i certainly hope no one believes men just ignore children until they are men.

I am of the belief that Satan's plan from the cross onward has been to destroy the family model because the family model is a beautiful picture of Father God, Christ, and Spirit.

 

[rodd]

Wasn't John the Baptist filled with the Holy Spirit when in the womb,.....did he need to hear the voice of a man to be chosen by God....I don't think that's so!
For the majority probably it doesn't happen that way, but would that exclude another way for God, why should it?
So why wouldn't you likely see your unborn?

 

[spirit1st]

Wasn't John the Baptist filled with the Holy Spirit when in the womb,.....did he need to hear the voice of a man to be chosen by God....I don't think that's so!
For the majority probably it doesn't happen that way, but would that exclude another way for God, why should it?
So why wouldn't you likely see your unborn?

Nope! I believe the Holy Ghost was with Him , but Not dwelling in HIM1 Because He too died in his sins !

1Co_15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Joh_7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


Luk_7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
Because He was not yet Born into the kingdom !

No one was saved [Born again ] Til Jesus died for our Sins and rose from the dead to New Jerusalem ! He had to send back the Holy Ghost ! That when those who were freed from hell and those in the upper room were Born Again ! Born into His Kingdom as Part of God family and household!

Heb_13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Only though Jesus CHRIST BLOOD , does any have salvation !
Everyone died in there sins , before He died and arose !

Rom_4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Heb_11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

Heb_9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
1Jn_2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

 

[farout]

Adam willingly ate the fruit, Eve was uder satan's deception. Therefore both were at afult, but the man was more guilty. After all the man is head over the woman.


farout

 

[spirit1st]

The Truth as I see it is ? Adam LOVED His wife more than He loved the Creator and truth !
You know , He only saw the Lord from time to time ! But His wife was with Him always! The relationship was stronger with His wife! He did not understand ? God would have given Him a New Wife ! He knew He would be lonely !

He did not understand ! Now our re;lationship starts and He never leaves us or forsakews us ! It much closer now than what adam had !
We now have much more ! We are made new creatures , part of HIs own family and household ! His kings and Priests on the earth and For ever more1 with His own power within us !
Our New spirit [new creature is made in the image of Jesus christ ! It cannot sin 1 Adam could !

We are a Brand new creation , Much more than adam was !

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph_3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

2Pe_1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


1Pe_1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Rom_8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
Our New Spirit is JUST like our LORD JESUS! Only does not have all the knowledge yet !

Mat_10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Joh_20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.


Mat_16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Mat_16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Mat_18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


Joh_14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Mat_17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Heb_6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

We do not see our New creature in the natural ! We can onoly trust by Faith , in what The Bible says it like !

Eph_2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph_4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Col_3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Listen ? I had all kinds of miracles in my life time and I still have trouble believing at times ! That why I know I am No man of great faith ! I know I am No more than the least in his body and true unseen church ! He can use You too do even much more than He used me ! I am Sure!

 

[anya]

hello anya, i believe the jewish bar mitzvah shows 2 pictures, the age in which a child becomes a man, and also an age in which he is now responsible for his own soul. In the new testament all fall short of the glory of God, all are sinners, and all deserve hell, does that mean a child can't go to heaven without being saved? I certainly hope not, otherwise I would not get to meet my unborn child in heaven. I believe this picture is of the age you are now accountable for yourself.

Every Father should be a spiritual leader of his house, he should teach scripture to his children. He should lead by example by having daily prayer and devotion time. parenting is a job for both parents, i certainly hope no one believes men just ignore children until they are men.

I am of the belief that Satan's plan from the cross onward has been to destroy the family model because the family model is a beautiful picture of Father God, Christ, and Spirit.

I think my main point is that there is a lack of male leadership in churches as well as homes. As I was writing the previous post, it came to me that for some odd reason we put, for the most part, women in spiritual leadership roles to teach the children in churches, and then expect them to know how to lead spiritually even though the only example they had was of women leading. I think that maybe if our men began teaching children, especially young boys, that we would begin to see strong Christian young men growing in our fellowships. Why is it that Christianity is said to be for sissies and old women?

 

[rodd]

I think my main point is that there is a lack of male leadership in churches as well as homes. As I was writing the previous post, it came to me that for some odd reason we put, for the most part, women in spiritual leadership roles to teach the children in churches, and then expect them to know how to lead spiritually even though the only example they had was of women leading. I think that maybe if our men began teaching children, especially young boys, that we would begin to see strong Christian young men growing in our fellowships. Why is it that Christianity is said to be for sissies and old women?

That last statement of yours!...........and hey, isn't that true and how much we are mocked due to this observance!

 

[rodd]

Nope! I believe the Holy Ghost was with Him , but Not dwelling in HIM1 Because He too died in his sins !

1Co_15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Joh_7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


Luk_7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
Because He was not yet Born into the kingdom !

No one was saved [Born again ] Til Jesus died for our Sins and rose from the dead to New Jerusalem ! He had to send back the Holy Ghost ! That when those who were freed from hell and those in the upper room were Born Again ! Born into His Kingdom as Part of God family and household!

Heb_13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Only though Jesus CHRIST BLOOD , does any have salvation !
Everyone died in there sins , before He died and arose !

Rom_4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Heb_11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

Heb_9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
1Jn_2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

"Ok", so you reckon it's not because we were chosen before the foundation of the world then,...it's all to do with our actions, whether we respond after the pastor's sermon??

 

[spirit1st]

We were all choosen! God wanted all mankind to have salvation ! But few answer HIS call !

Jesus Had to shed His Holy blood first of course!

In the old testament , Many saw it coming and were waiting !

God says ? He reveals Himself to all mankind ! But the gospel , which is the only way to have Salvation ! We normally give !

Rom_1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

1Co_1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Rom_10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?


Rom_1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

It starts with believing there is a Creator !

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

This is Our LORD Gospel and the Only way to Salvation !
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Mat_22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Few accept His gospel as truth and HIM from there Heart {spirit] as LORD!
He Lord no matter what ! But We must accept that truth from our HEART [Spirit] !

He Only WANTS the best for us Always!

 

[rodd]

So, if what you reckon is correct, God wants to choose "everyone," but seems to struggle getting his will done...and doesn't seem to mind!
In other words he's a bit of a softie!

 

[james1523]

Regarding the weakness of the genders.. in God's eyes both men and women are weak.. and godly men are generally weaker than worldly men, since God tends to be able to use the weak ones the most.. God prefers to call weak people, than strong people.. but women are weaker than the men, so that's why they have to come under the head of the man.

 

[rodd]

Regarding the weakness of the genders.. in God's eyes both men and women are weak.. and godly men are generally weaker than worldly men, since God tends to be able to use the weak ones the most.. God prefers to call weak people, than strong people.. but women are weaker than the men, so that's why they have to come under the head of the man.

Just might have something to do with divinely appointed roles...what do you think of that?

 

[spirit1st]

GOD LOVES US ! But we have free choice ! Plus satan and the demons [fallen angels] are hard at work trying to keep mankind from accepting the Free Gift of salvation ! They hate mankind and feel man is not worth anything !

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


God will not force us to accept eternal life nor to grow in truth , once we have accepted His terms !

But He does Love us and is long suffering toward Us! It always amazed me , How He can LOVE Us ! I see my life! How I have disobeyed Him or made so many mistakes ! Or tried in my understanding to help Him?
I messed up lots ! HE was Always faithful and wanted to bless me and forgave me quickly ! No one could LOVE Us as He has !


Amazing LOVE!
He does npot have a little LOVE or Big LOVE! HE just pure perfect LOVE toward You and ME !

 

[rodd]

GOD LOVES US ! But we have free choice ! Plus satan and the demons [fallen angels] are hard at work trying to keep mankind from accepting the Free Gift of salvation ! They hate mankind and feel man is not worth anything !

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


God will not force us to accept eternal life nor to grow in truth , once we have accepted His terms !

But He does Love us and is long suffering toward Us! It always amazed me , How He can LOVE Us ! I see my life! How I have disobeyed Him or made so many mistakes ! Or tried in my understanding to help Him?
I messed up lots ! HE was Always faithful and wanted to bless me and forgave me quickly ! No one could LOVE Us as He has !


Amazing LOVE!
He does npot have a little LOVE or Big LOVE! HE just pure perfect LOVE toward You and ME !

I was under the impression that it was God, through the work of the Holy Spirit the 3rd person of the Godhead who applied the condemnation and fear of God (the Father) to our minds so we would then choose him, which in effect is what "born of the Spirit" or "born again" actually and really means. "Born by the Spirit," we are a "re-creation" or "new creation" of God.

The birth into belief comes from God and is irresistible, when the Spirit applies the work of regeneration we speak and do the actions of the regenerated, we then mouth the words of repentance, because we cannot do any other.
Fact is, part of the Great love he shows us is that "he does forcefully apply the re-generating work of the Holy Spirit", so he does literally take up residence in our hearts.

True new birth is actually Gods spirit coming into you, it's that one way, if you can understand that.
No, God himself is the great Evangelist on he is the power to save, it doesn't reside in the hands of blasphemous unregenerate mankind based his whim of choice.

This might seem a bit strange to you but up until the 20th it was the prevailing view of re-generation or conversion, that salvation is of the Lord, or in modern language is a work of God and God alone, and not of us.
You may then have to consider, well what about the rest, "the unsaved"......does scripture support this view or not?
How would you reconcile a verse like " for God so loved the world"?

God Bless.

 

[spirit1st]

Born Again is just what it says! Born a 2nd time1 a brand new birth! God gives us a New Baby spirit being 1 which makes us a New Creature ! we still dwell in the same old dying body for a short time! then we leave it and it dies and we go Home 1 Too new Jerusalem , the place He went to prepare for us !

God a spirit being and Father of perfect spirit beings ! Which we are at Salvation and forever more!


This is one of the best scripture to reveal the difference between our flesh body and our spirit body !

Rom_8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

This one also reveals the differance between our flesh and our new spirit !
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Our flesh wants to serve it self! Our Spirit wants to only serve our LORD! Big difference !

 

[james1523]

Just might have something to do with divinely appointed roles...what do you think of that?

Yes by virtue of the fact that man was created first, and woman created for man, not man for woman. And the fact that woman was deceived not man.

In our modern era, Satan has tried to blame the man , Adam, for being at fault and receiving the fruit. But Paul lays the blame at the woman for being deceived.

There are plenty of women with Jezebel spirits who wish to blame and lay fault at the man, instead of accepting what Paul said that woman was deceived but man was not:

1 Tim 2:14 "And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.".

 

[rodd]

Yes by virtue of the fact that man was created first, and woman created for man, not man for woman. And the fact that woman was deceived not man.

In our modern era, Satan has tried to blame the man , Adam, for being at fault and receiving the fruit. But Paul lays the blame at the woman for being deceived.

There are plenty of women with Jezebel spirits who wish to blame and lay fault at the man, instead of accepting what Paul said that woman was deceived but man was not:

1 Tim 2:14 "And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.".

I personally think it's not only Satan distorting God's desired natural order, but the man he especially despises because we were a creation of the image of our God and Father, the women was created from man for the man Adam.
That's why there's probably near enough equal number of female pagan gods of worship as there are male. Satan will use any tactic to criminalize the desired will of God and to infiltrate his heretical doctrine to destroy the church from within.