I do indeed have an issue with what most consider to be "the body of Christ" and it's because I too was once bound by religious paradigm surrounding this topic. It seems that my question is avoided again. I am not arguing the need for fellowship between believers and I am not sure where you came to that conclusion unless you believe that this fellowship must take place during religious liturgy and involve clergy. If you want to refrain from answering my questions it's ok and I won't ask them again on this forum to keep the comfort.
Scriptures pastors never talk about.
- Thread starter ushalk
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I do indeed have an issue with what most consider to be "the body of Christ" and it's because I too was once bound by religious paradigm surrounding this topic. It seems that my question is avoided again. I am not arguing the need for fellowship between believers and I am not sure where you came to that conclusion unless you believe that this fellowship must take place during religious liturgy and involve clergy. If you want to refrain from answering my questions it's ok and I won't ask them again on this forum to keep the comfort.
James: I am so glad you enjoy church. That' a wonderful spirit you have, You have some very interesting things you have done.
I do have something to say about the church near our home we gave been attending from Jan. 1st. The pastor is rather elderly but he is very friendly, he has not been to but a few classes at the association office. His sermons are very basic. ON Resurrection Sunday he read Scripture that was hard to follow, and ending his sermon, he never got to the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I like to give some marching orders so people have something to think about or reconsider, otherwise it's just a epme up sermon with out a conclusion. That's pretty much like most of the services have gonne rather disjointed and hard to follow. Churches in the sticks deserve better than that, they just take the first person to say they will be their pastor. He has a wonderful spirit, and loves the people, and I believe that's what the really wanted. WE are going to look at a church we have heard about.
"MOST" churches today are Not feeding the flock of God !" James, that means nothing without a percentage or a defined report made, but to use most, many, is over stating your opinion. It would be like me saying that many of American trucks are not made as well as RAM truck's. Now I really do think that, but I sure would not go on a Chevy web site and say that. This is just my opinion nothing to back it up, it's just what I think. Now if I said Ram truck are out selling every American made truck, by percentage of sales from last year. See I gave the qualifer...percentage, not exact numbers, but I gave something to compare it too. Blessings
I am not picken on you, I am just trying to make you a good Baptist.
farout
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sintheticg
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Amen brother. I was practically run out of my first church for not tithing, even though 35% of my check was going to a brother in Christ to live at my house. paid his bills and his rent, and fed him while he looked for a job. I ended up in credit card debt just to eat, and i was told numerous times i was in this hardship because i didn't tithe. Yet when an evangelist came through town they always called me for a free hotel room. It's truly sad how money drives so many. I saw so many poor families run out when a tithe was practically demanded. My roommate took a homeless man to dinner for Christmas and the preacher wouldn't even visit the man 2 weeks later in the hospital. He had quit drinking and professed Jesus as Lord. He wanted to quit drinking but his body literally shut down.
But I am a living testimony to romans 8:28, despite all the wrong at this place I was saved and eventually lead away by the spirit. All praise to Christ.
sintheticg
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(Revelation 3:14-22) "¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; {15} I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. {16} So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. {17} Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: {18} I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. {19} As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. {20} Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. {21} To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. {22} He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."
verse 20 is often twisted to a salvation message but in context we see Christ is not in the laodicean church but he stands at the door and knocks, waiting for someone to let him in. There is a promise here, that we should remember Jesus was rejected by his own people, yet he heard the voice of God and did what he was told. We should do the same, though most are unsaved around us, we can still hear the Lord's voice at church, and we can preach him to the people in the pews outside the building.
I too have had an anger toward the typical american church. It is encouraging to see others have the same issue, brother. I do attend church as I want to set an example for my siblings being the oldest brother of 6. But most of my growth is from preaching on the internet and devotional time.
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Sinthethisg: Hold the phone here ! Just a cotten picken minuet here ! When you are the Pastor you are the leader for the flock to follow, by your example the flock is to do as you demonstrate what christianis ought to d and be. That's not to say you are perfect, but a mature Christ like leader.
IF you don't believe in giving a Tithe of the money God has given you, just exactally what do you believe you are to give ? I know know that people that speak the loudest about how much they HAVE TO GIVE the church are the one's that give little or nearly nothing ! These type of people give every excuse in the book as to why they don' believe in the tithe. Typical is that the Tithe was under the Old Covenant, and they are right, but don't follow through with giving much, or giving anything.
What does the New Testament say about giving ? If were off the hook and don't have to Tithe just what are we as Christ like people to give ? Good question, glad you asked.
Mark 12:41-44 gives theexample of the poor widow. She gave sacrificially, all she had, which was really little in actual value. Sacrificial giving is what the New Testament is telling us how to give back what God has given us in the first place. Perhaps one way to look at sacirficial giving is God is giving us a opportunity to prove He really is our LORD. When we give back to Him what He provides for us is a way of showing we trust Him to provide for us and that we are trustworthy and a steward of His money. When we don't give back to Him we are being selfish, and a theif holding back what belongs to Him in the first place. Whe we are being wise in our finances giving back to the LORD, most always means we have a budget and are tracking our money, and ypur bill's are getting paid. I think if we are cheating God of our sacrificial giving, the likelyhood is we are in dept up to our eyeballs. That's only my opinion.
Something is seriously wrong if you were spending 35% of your income on your friend. That was honnorable to help a friend like that. But, that's not giving to the LORD. If you wer giving on a regular way then perhaps you could have presented to the board that helps the poor and hurting people, to help your friend. The church has agood reason to ask you to leave. When we give to God through the church you are working as a body of Christ. What id a lot of people felt as you and just helped people in need ? The bill's would proberly go unpaid. Satan always trys to side track us into doing something that at the time seems as if it takes priority over everything else, like you and this friend. God allows our faithfulness to be tested, and failure to give is one area christian's fail. The people in the church were correct in telling you "numerous" times that you were in that situation, don't call it a tithe call it giving sacrificially. They looked to you for an example to follow and there was none to follow.
"It's truly sad how money drives so many." How else do we pay our bills, we can't barter to pay them can we ? I am genuinely concerned for peoples health and welfare, and the chrch can only help people in need by what the Lord provides. When people rob God by not giving Sacrificially it's lie running with one leg, it can't be done.
Friend, my brother in Christ, those families who told you they tithed and God did not provide for them are not being honest with you. There is much more to their story that they did not tell you. God does provide for His children. When we as follower's of Jesus Christ follow the example of giving sacrificially, God may test us in seeing that we are really dedicated to Him. Time after time I have seen God allow a hardship to come upon us, only to rescue us into a better place. Job is a good example of this. However we give back to Him, not to get, but to prove we are trustworthy and faithful to our LORD. When we say we "tithed" and things went to pot, we are really saying I gave expecting God to bless me. Giving and expecting God to do anything for us is unrealistic. When the money we get by worl or whatever He owns atleast 10%. So when we give sacrificially, 10% is a base amount that is His to begin with, what we give back above 10% that is sacrificial giving.
Whenwe hold back and spend His money we have a hard untrusting heart. We prove we are selfish, and we trust Him for our salvation, but not anything else. I am sure that after reading this, steam might well be coming from your ears. The truth is difficult to admit when we are so wrong. But you are not alone with your not giving a tithe or anyting else. Many pastors do the same thing. They feel that the pay is so poor I can't afford to give to God, they reason it all out in their mind, it all seems reasonable so their mind is set and there won't be achange, and that's it. By now you are sying that I sure know a lot about how pastors get stuck in this trap. I was just exactly like you once. I was wrong, the Lord gave me mercy I did not deserve. Jesus lovingly showed me in Scripture that I was disobedient, untrustworthy, and I was stealing from Him. We started with what we could give, and started giving more each month. I don't know what more to say, except start trusting God, and you won't have to keep telling yourslf sacrificiak giving just does not work. Give because you Love Him and trust Him, and you are returning what belongs to the LORD in the first place. Blessings
farout
i find it funny how people see things that do not go along with going into a church, they put up things like, " oh so i guess connecting is not important " as if the only christian fellowship there is belongs to going to a church building. so let us get this clear and very clear, we do not have to go into the church building with a fake name in order to have good fellowship. get that understood. no one needs a fake church with fake policies and fake teachings in them for growth. like it or not there it is. let me not forget the fake pagan social club worship.
ushalk: Some one or some church has taken away you joy. The only thing I can say ushalk, is I will pray for some healing of what ever reason your bleeding all over your post. I genuinely believe you are looking for a healthy fellowship with believers, that they walk their talk. Most all of us hate being alone, and feeling left out, with no fellowship with other believers. I am really concerned for you, I wish I could help. Blessings brother.
farout
Boanerges
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There is no basis for tithing in the New Testament church. Giving with a joyful heart is our way.
You are right, but we are expected to give sacrificially, and that is likely to be even more. blessings.
farout
Boanerges
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Amen x 10! What a joy to give into the Kingdom of God. What a privilege.
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@Chad @jiggyfly
Love you both brothers!
The need for Church, both structured and non-structured is necessary for the believer. It's not only for "I" the individual believer but for "us", the Body of Christ (BOC). In many Western Countries, and I will include Aussie's here :thumbs_up as well, we have a greater ability to go town to town, even street to street picking and choosing or as the Spirit moves us; to join with others of the BOC. However, reading about China and other places where the options are not only limited but non-existent this becomes much more difficult question. Couple those limitations with the societies who don't hold Christianity with open arms; Communist, Islamic, dictatorships, where ever persecution or should I say ignorance is rampant, we find that house churches prevalent. How does the Lord talk of His presence? Matthew 18:20 "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Persecution, apostasy, among some things drives the believer to church separately from the established denominations, yet still allow for the ability to "Church Biblically".
Here at TJ there have been folks, that have looked for answers on where to go, when they move to a new location (job, family what have you) doesn't have a church that is biblically sound like the one they left, search as they may; or the church they attended introduced worldly concepts i.e. New Age, Eastern Religious practices etc. into their studies and there are no other well grounded ones around.
Brothers, if you were to ask some here at TJ, even though not intended Brother Chad, some might even call TJ at times a place where they church more than any place else. Sounds like this might make for a good "Poll Question"!!!!
Well, I've added my little bit to this conversation.
Always, remembering that where ever they might be found, where ever the Gospel is spread, be it hut, hovel, field, cathedral, jail cell, palace. There too we will find parts of the BOC and fellow brothers & sisters in Christ Jesus!
YBIC
C4E
Love you both brothers!
The need for Church, both structured and non-structured is necessary for the believer. It's not only for "I" the individual believer but for "us", the Body of Christ (BOC). In many Western Countries, and I will include Aussie's here :thumbs_up as well, we have a greater ability to go town to town, even street to street picking and choosing or as the Spirit moves us; to join with others of the BOC. However, reading about China and other places where the options are not only limited but non-existent this becomes much more difficult question. Couple those limitations with the societies who don't hold Christianity with open arms; Communist, Islamic, dictatorships, where ever persecution or should I say ignorance is rampant, we find that house churches prevalent. How does the Lord talk of His presence? Matthew 18:20 "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Persecution, apostasy, among some things drives the believer to church separately from the established denominations, yet still allow for the ability to "Church Biblically".
Here at TJ there have been folks, that have looked for answers on where to go, when they move to a new location (job, family what have you) doesn't have a church that is biblically sound like the one they left, search as they may; or the church they attended introduced worldly concepts i.e. New Age, Eastern Religious practices etc. into their studies and there are no other well grounded ones around.
Brothers, if you were to ask some here at TJ, even though not intended Brother Chad, some might even call TJ at times a place where they church more than any place else. Sounds like this might make for a good "Poll Question"!!!!
Well, I've added my little bit to this conversation.
Always, remembering that where ever they might be found, where ever the Gospel is spread, be it hut, hovel, field, cathedral, jail cell, palace. There too we will find parts of the BOC and fellow brothers & sisters in Christ Jesus!
YBIC
C4E
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That's the truth brother. And be careful.. sooner or later you will realize it is not just tithing, but many other things without basis in the New Testament church.. such as denominations
.Brother the definition of church is not like a little house on the prairie..next to all the other little houses on the prairie. But in the Bible the church included any Christian believer in your city! So giving to any believer in your city is giving to the church. Oh my we need to come out of the human man made system that says all our giving and tithing must go through them!
It appears this friend was a brother in Christ. And giving to a Christian brother is giving to the Lord:
Matt 25:40 "The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'
It's more giving to the Lord than giving to a church to pay for a new carpet or driveway!
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Yes indeed, very true James1523. This is a good example of how the religious system has fettered spiritual growth within the ekklesia.
James: I know some won't agree with me and that's ok, there is plenty of room for different ways as long as it does not conflict with Scripture. I believe my giving to the places I have committed an amount to support their ministry takes first place. If I tell a mission that I will send so much every month, they depend on that. I will not le them down. I was given this responsibility by the Lord and I will be faithful. I honestly believe that the Lord does not give usmore that we cam bear. I am presented wit such a situation as was stated I am sure I would help as mush as I could and i would get as much support from others as possible. If I am being a leader that is respected and I have a record of being financially a good steward then I could ask the Elders to help out who ever needs it.
Like i said I too had to learn the hard way and I did learn. God was very mercyfull is teaching me I could trust and depend on Him. I Have to answer to the Lord just as everyone else will. So to each of us we stand before the Lord and answer for our stewardship. Blessings.
farout
sintheticg
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i think you may have missunderstood me, i have never been a pastor. the pastor of the church i was saved in told me repeatedly that i was in sin for not tithing. he had no idea how much i gave to missionaries and my brothers and sisters because i only gave in the offering plate or directly to them via cash. most churches provide little envelopes and you fill out your name ect. so you can write off your givings on your taxes at the end of the year and pastor can keep track of who he needs to cater to based on how much they give. i dont tithe because it is old testament law, rather, i give. i've left $200 on peoples cars whom were struggling, i even left money secretly to the woman who killed my first and only child because murdering an unborn child is apparently less of a sin than a congregation knowing we had conceived out of wedlock. it comes down to a heart condition. im currently unemployed, have under $1000 in my bank, over 5k in credit card debt, my head gasket just blew, my wallet was stolen today and someone charged up my card on gas and snacks. yet just a few weeks ago as the plate was going by I asked God in prayer if he wanted me to put money in the plate, I heard the spirit say $4, which is the lowest amount i've ever given or heard the spirit tell me to give, but being as i have no income i was still hesitant. long story short i grabbed $3 because my other $1 bills were on the opposite side of a $5 bill. by the end of the offering i was under so much conviction over the $1 that I almost broke out in tears, I waited till the next service to leave the extra dollar. I don't believe that by not strictly sticking 10% of my income in an envelope i am quenching the spirit. I give when I can and when i'm lead.
It's funny when pastors use the excuse you need to tithe or we can't pay the light bills, they expect us to tithe 10% whether or not we can afford it, and "trust God" but they don't trust God themselves because they have to preach about tithing from the pulpit every week...
also, the pastor did not help people pay bills, especially those on the finance comity who asked him where the $10000 building fund disappeared to every year.
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you are right and that is the main theme of my op's. we have subdued ourselves more to a flesh tickling business than to the true word of God. it seems as though there is more faith in a man or ourselves than in Christ. We need the truth from our lord than the man made system church business.
sintheticg
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why i do not fill out pledge cards
(Matthew 6:1-4) " Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. {2} Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. {3} But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: {4} That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly."
(Matthew 6:30-34) " Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? {31} Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? {32} (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek
for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. {33} But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. {34} Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."We Should ask our LORD where He wants us to go? We go to church to worship our LORD with others who Love our LORD! And too be a blessing too others !Many in churches are unsaved and many are suffering in many ways ? We are the true church ! The place where we go to fellowship is really the house of prayer we join in together ! Something about being with so many in His body worshipping together !
We should support that place the best we can ? I know sometimes lots of money is wasted ? where i go they built a bit bulding with a kit. and dining room where they sell food and have meals for sale one night a week and hired a chef ! they oue millions because of this Big bulding ! They used to have a T.V. program and the bulding was going to be partly a media center ? but i guess that did not bring in the millions they thought it would ?
now in each service they say they need money to pay for this building !
Everyone makes mistakes and that why we Need to be led by the HOLY GHOST and Not our understanding !
Lots go too this church that really love our LORD JESUS and have great testimonies of miracles in there lives and others they have touched !
It a nice church but has flaws ! I think it is mainly led by mans understanding and not by the Holy Ghost ? But i do Love going there anyway ! Thew good out weighs the bad too me !
I would LOVE too see them operate closer to scripture ! I believe GOD could use this group of believers to do a powerful work for our LORD JESUS! I said a few things to the pastor , i believed would help in GOD work in this area 1 He looked me at like i was insane !LOl
I told Him about preaching on fasting and Healing as in James ! They just have one person stand up front after the service to pray for others needs ! that Not what the bible says to do in the church !
Jas_5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
I been healed that way by serious stuff and my daughter also who was either dead or Very close too it ? I know we Must try to obey God Living words as close as we can ?
I found in my life time ? It mainly the Simple act of obeying ! Nothing great about me personally in this weak flesh ! In fact i think many of my brotyhersw and Sisters in the Lord are Much better appearing in there flesh ! I never really liked the weakness of my being in the flesh or even thought much of it ! In my eyes ? With all i seen and God revealed too be ? I should be a man of great faith and i am Not ! Maybe that how my LORD keeps me humble ? Or maybe i am not so weak ? Sometimes i supriz4e my self ? but then again I think it the LORD !
The LORD Will Never leave or forsake Us , once we have truly given our lives to HIM and accepted Him as Our LORD Forever more !
We should support that place the best we can ? I know sometimes lots of money is wasted ? where i go they built a bit bulding with a kit. and dining room where they sell food and have meals for sale one night a week and hired a chef ! they oue millions because of this Big bulding ! They used to have a T.V. program and the bulding was going to be partly a media center ? but i guess that did not bring in the millions they thought it would ?
now in each service they say they need money to pay for this building !
Everyone makes mistakes and that why we Need to be led by the HOLY GHOST and Not our understanding !
Lots go too this church that really love our LORD JESUS and have great testimonies of miracles in there lives and others they have touched !
It a nice church but has flaws ! I think it is mainly led by mans understanding and not by the Holy Ghost ? But i do Love going there anyway ! Thew good out weighs the bad too me !
I would LOVE too see them operate closer to scripture ! I believe GOD could use this group of believers to do a powerful work for our LORD JESUS! I said a few things to the pastor , i believed would help in GOD work in this area 1 He looked me at like i was insane !LOl
I told Him about preaching on fasting and Healing as in James ! They just have one person stand up front after the service to pray for others needs ! that Not what the bible says to do in the church !
Jas_5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
I been healed that way by serious stuff and my daughter also who was either dead or Very close too it ? I know we Must try to obey God Living words as close as we can ?
I found in my life time ? It mainly the Simple act of obeying ! Nothing great about me personally in this weak flesh ! In fact i think many of my brotyhersw and Sisters in the Lord are Much better appearing in there flesh ! I never really liked the weakness of my being in the flesh or even thought much of it ! In my eyes ? With all i seen and God revealed too be ? I should be a man of great faith and i am Not ! Maybe that how my LORD keeps me humble ? Or maybe i am not so weak ? Sometimes i supriz4e my self ? but then again I think it the LORD !
The LORD Will Never leave or forsake Us , once we have truly given our lives to HIM and accepted Him as Our LORD Forever more !
why i do not fill out pledge cards
(Matthew 6:1-4) " Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. {2} Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. {3} But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: {4} That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly."
(Matthew 6:30-34) " Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? {31} Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? {32} (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek
I am not saying pledge card's are good or bad, ach person has to think about that for themselves. I have a personal thing about pledge card's. I will not fill pne out ! We put in cash, because we split our givening up over several other places. Most likely if we used a envelope thye whoever counts the ofering would make a false judgement. So cash we give filder over or a dollar bill on the top. I do understand that the judgement of a few is none od their business. We are retired and we are nor accountable to theleadership. But we do believe in sacrifical giving. Each couple or person has to deal with this how thhey feel the Lord directs.
You not reads like you were the pastor glad we misunderstood. Blessings
farout
