Rethinking the tithe

[Brother Mike]

Tithing again.

ushalk: There are many false teachings on tithing. If you love God then you better give or else. As for the other part that might be considered the prosperity message. Give 200 get 10,000. There are Spiritual laws that do operate the Kingdom of God though. The Law of seed time and harvest or sowing and reaping is very evident in the Word of God. This could be bad stuff or good stuff it depends on what you sow. Remember, each seed produces after it's own kind. Money will produce money. Sin will produce not so much money and worse.

I consoled with a Christian man that was put in Jail for molesting his Girl friends daughter. He did not commit the crime and was very upset about the 6 years he lost off his life. He wanted to know how God could allow this to happen to him as he was mad at God. Well after praying the Spirit of the Lord spoke to me. God had a simple question, ask him why he did not obey me when I told him not to live with that women? Once I mentioned what God said to me then everything made sense to him. He was living in adultery and was not willing to leave that women even though God dealt with him. She wanted have his stuff and so fabricated the story about him and her daughter. She got the truck and house, he went to jail. This was the second guy she had done this to. unrepentant sin brings the full harvest.

jiggyfly I did read the whole article you had written more than once.

The question is: Is it the absolute will of God that we give a tenth of our income. (10 percent of gross pay.)

The Problem: The way people look at the Word of God.

Lets take a couple of scriptures.

Luke 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Heb 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

Jesus made it clear that they were to continue to tithe. He is head of the church and does not change. If they have to tithe then bless God so do we. However, we can break this down. Was he just talking to them because they were the religious leaders of the time and he had yet to bring in the new covenant? Were they suppose to tithe all the min and rue they got there hands on?

Next scripture.

Abraham gave a tenth part of ALL. There is a reason this was mentioned three times in Hebrews chapter seven. All to me means all and we are Abraham's seed blessed with FAITHFUL Abraham.So, we are suppose to also give a tenth of ALL.
However, this could just be a little history lesson to give a full picture of Jesus our high priest and how the order of priesthood went up to Jesus.

There is always the same theme to make a scripture not apply to us today. We have to go back in time and separate how God dealt with people then and now. We then have to take a whole bunch of other things into consideration like time, and culture ect... (Hermeneutics)

Christians have different opinions of being under the law or works. one thing is true. The Law is still in full operation today. We are not justified by the works of the law but by the law of faith. This does not take away the law however. The law of faith super cedes the law of sin and death.

The part of the law we were made free of is the sin and death that followed the breaking of the law. We were not free from law however.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

If we walk after the Spirit (Of God or newborn spirit, will not get into that now.) we will not fulfill the lust and desires of the flesh or put ourselves under the law again.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

James made it clear that a believer can break the law. That's not a good thing.

Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Jas 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath showed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Noticed how James goes into the other scripture about faith and works. We are save by grace through faith, but can faith alone save us? the answer is NO.

Then finally.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Those that lead a Spirit Filled life and love God will keep the law, and it's only through the work of Jesus putting away sin and the Holy Ghost that enables us to do that. (New non-satanic human spirit.)

Now the new commandment.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

We are suppose to obey these. The whole law hangs under these. Love does not commit adultery, lie or steal tithes from God.

In Closing.

Sad truth is most Christians do not give anything to God or give little. If they put something in the box in back or collection plate it's an after thought. They grab a 10 or 20 and throw it in there. You can tell God is not first or they don't have that revelation. Most Christians like to think the Law does not effect them as they want an excuse to behave and act any way they want. It worries me that most people I meet that say there saved sure don't act like it. I am not under the law they say.

If we were to really follow the new testament teaching on giving then we would really be in bad shape as Christians. Those folks sold everything and gave everything in Acts and is mentioned again about giving everything in 2 Cor chapter 8. I guess we could write that off as being in a different time...... um..

Anything that is not of Faith is sin. I see in the Word that God told us to bring in a tenth. I see it several times in the Word of God and Jesus talked about it.. It's good enough for me. Sadly, the people that really need to read this are not interested in God enough to join forums like this.. They love to hear tithing is not scriptural. God is not first in anything in there life. They just show up on Sunday.

If your convinced that Tithing is not part of our covenant with God then Don't tithe. God will not hold you guilty as it's not a revelation to you. If you do see it as scriptural then you better rethink things. For me, if God said he will multiply my seed sown and give in good measure shaken down and pressed together then it just makes financial sense to do so. The more I get my hands on, the more I can do for the Kingdom.

Bless God everyone !!
Jesus Is Lord.

 

[ushalk]

all i am stating is that i would rather bring people to repentance and to christ in humbleness knowing that we are all sinners. not the come to christ to get rich. make us rich and then you will get rich. this is the teachings that are given concerning tithing.

the worst teaching is the sow your seed of money. no where in the bible does it discuss sowing a seed as giving money.

 

[Brother Mike]

Sow corn not money.

Thank you for your response ushalk. Your concerned that the teaching of sowing money is not so good. I have heard this before.

Does the Bible tell us not to sow money?

Before we discount sowing money we must ask ourselves why we feel this way or believe this way. Everything that you give God is going to come right back to money. Most Christians that believe that sowing money is not scriptural do not have lots of money themselves.

Sowing your time is money.
Sowing something you own cost something in money.

A church can not pay it's bills with corn or other things. Projects can not be started without money. It takes lots of money to run a church and it takes lots of money to preach this Gospel around the world. It all comes back to money. So it makes sense that if you Love God and the preaching of the Word then your going to have to dig in to those pockets.

The problem is the value that Christians put on money. Money is just a tool for God to use. Lots of Christians covet money and don't even realize it. It would never cross their mind to give God any of it if it meant that they would have to do without. God is not broke. He can more then supply your needs, but he uses people to do it.

Luke 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you, good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

If you read my above post you see that Jesus talked about giving money twice. Once was his satisfaction with the widow that gave her coin and the other the issue with Caesar. Money is the best thing to give because it sure beats dragging your TV or corn harvest to church.

Lets look at another scripture. Jesus was not at all poor.

Joh 13:29 For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.
Joh 13:30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.

Judas was in charge of the money bag. Judas was a thief . Nobody thought anything of Judas possibly going out and giving their bag full of money away to the poor. Jesus gave and received money all the time. Think of the widows that threw money at his feet as he walked and taught or all that were happy to receive a loved one healed again. Jesus in return gave back.

So the Bible does discuss giving money. There are also places in the Old testament that talk about sowing just money.

People coming to Christ just to get rich?

People are very carnal today. Because of bad teaching there are many that God called in to the ministry office but refuses to obey because they think it means a life of poverty.

Psa 35:27 Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favor my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let the LORD be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant.

God loves to prosper us. he never meant for his children to be poor. If He said he will multiply our seed sown then that means the more money we sow, the more God will multiply and give back to us.

2Co 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

Jesus Gave up everything for us. He was rich but became poor and through what he went though we might be made rich. The word rich used here is not some spiritual rich. The Greek word means to be increased with goods.

So, the wealth of the sinner is laid up for us!!! If we don't have the money then guess who going to have it? Satan controls a lot of what should belong to us. It's time we start taking it back and God has put in place the Laws of sowing and reaping. Satan can not get around or stop the word of God. The last thing he would want us to do is start throwing money at the Gospel to get preached all over this world.

God operates under the Law of Seed time and harvest. That's how the Kingdom of God is set up. Jesus talked about sowing and understanding the Kingdom of God in Mark chapter 4. He talked about sowing the Word there, but the Whole principle of Sowing and reaping is how the Kingdom operates.

a few years back the Spirit of God told me to go to the Church I am at now. So, without a place to stay or knowing anyone I packed my family and kids in a van and drove to Branson Mo. We show up in town with 230.00 dollars to our name and no place to stay. We paid for a hotel room and got ready to go to church that next day for the first time.
That night at church they collected the tithes and offerings which we gave but after that our pastor told of a large project to help another ministry purchase a boat. This boat would be used in the South pacific to pick up Island people and transport them to a bible college. We had 100.00 dollars left and rent was due the next morning at our hotel. Not only that be we need gas and food for the family. Well as they were ready to take up an offering for that boat project the Spirit of the Lord spoke to me. He said I want you to give that 100.00 dollars. Of course I thought how are we going to pay rent or buy food the next day. I kinda hesitated then asked the wife for the money and put it in the bucket. It's better to obey God.

That next morning we had to be out of our room at 11:00 am. We had no food to eat and it was already 9:00 am. So I get up and just start thanking God for being faithful and meeting all my needs according to his riches and glory. I knew God had something in mind. He never fails if we refuse to doubt what he said in his Word. I just wish I knew the plan as it would have helped me feel a little better about things.

Well, at 10:00 am my cell phone rings. It was a Women we knew back home where we had just left. She said God was dealing with her all night to send us money and send it NOW!! She had me go to Walmart and get a wire transfere for 300.00. Praise God, I had 30.00 more tithe money to give and the rent was paid and food was bought. Three days latter someone gave us another 200.00 dollars and someone else just left three bags of food on our hotel door step.
Well, as I picked up the food the Spirit of the Lord spoke to me again. God said had I not obeyed him then he would not have been able to get all that money and food to us. We can out ahead even though it looked like a very bad idea to give God everything at the time.

God works in line with his Word. If God can't get someone to give 5.00 dollars then that person won't have to worry about being botherd with God asking them for 100.00. They also will not be botherd with a harvest. They can keep there money and be happy. God does not pressure anyone. As for me, I want to see what God can do, He is Awesome!!!

Thank you for your reply Brother!!! I would rethink some things about giveing money or at least pray and study a little more on it. We don't give to God to get rich. I had no plans to get rich the night I gave that 100.00 dollars and at the time wish God would not have asked for it. However it worked out greater then expected. We are all learning.

God Bless
Jesus Is Lord

 

[ushalk]

brother mike i made the statement in an earlier post that i am not against tithing. i just disagree with the way that it is taught and the implication of its teaching by many people in todays churches.

 

[beam]

Greetings in Jesus name brothers and sisters

I have come across much opinions, scripture and controversy about the tithe in our day and age. I would be swayed one way and then another.

But my personal conviction on the matter is that my heart and inner man tells me to tithe 10% and give offerings, whether the offering be by way of giving my time, food, love, forgiveness, mercy, prayer, money etc.

However the most important thing i have learnt in this matter is to sow my tithe seed into good soil, in Mathew 13 Jesus talks about seed that fell on uproductive places, and the seed that fell on good soil that produced 30, 60 & 100 fold. So when i sow my tithe i want see the fruit of the ministry i tithe it to. Are they reaching the lost, spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ etc. One of my favoured places to tithe into is Open Doors ministries, the work they do in spreading the gospel is phenomenal.

Just sharing, God bless us all to be like minded one toward another in Christ Jesus-amen

Regards
beam

 

[Blademan]

.

Just a few points. The Head of the church stated (Jesus)

Luke 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Well, if the Head of the Church says we ought to tithe then good enough for me. Sure he was talking to the religious rulers of the time but He is not a respecter of persons and does not change (Rom 2:11, Heb 13:8 so on.)

Good points, that He doesn't change, and He's not a respector of persons.

What I wonder, though, is if we can agree that the covenant changed. After all, the basis of Jesus' instruction was based upon the Law, which stated that the tithe had to be taken to the temple collected only by the Levites; a temple that no longer exists, and collected by Levites who are no more.

That same Jesus also told a man to go and offer up the blood sacrifices in thanksgiving for his healing. So, if we follow your reasoning to its logical conclusion, then are we not also bound to obey that instruction as well, concerning a sacrifice that was also commanded by that same Law, and tied directly to that same temple, commanded by that same Lord?

My question is, where did God change his thinking on the Tithe?

Perhaps I can answer this with some questions of my own:

- Is it reasonable to observe the fact that the OT tithe had nothing to do with wages, and that such a fact should give pause to any assumption that we today are authorized to create out of thin air a redfinition of the tithe as having anything to do with wages?

- Is it reasonable to say that His thinking on the tithe changed with the passing of the cup of the New Covenant, and consumated when the veil was torn from top to bottom? After all, the tithe was tied directly to that same temple with the torn veil.

- Is it reasonable to say that James' instructions to the Gentile churches, which contained no mention of tithes, is a reasonable indicator of such a shift?

- Is it reasonable that all of Paul's instructions and directions to the churches, making no mention of a tithe, is a good indicator that the Lord no longer had such a focus?

Perhaps we can find solace and edification in the fact that Jesus' statement, which you quoted, was completely in conformity to the Law because of it having to do with spices, maybe grown in a garden, of which the Lord provided the increase, thus being produce from which they were required to tithe. We can observe in that quote that Jesus made no new command that the tithe, henceforth, was to be a portion of anyone's wages. Such a shift is nowhere in the word of God even hinted at.

These should be points that give us all liberation from dogmas that enslave its captives to a teaching that has no footing in the word of God. Not even the Law itself demanded a tithe of wages. If there is one, then by all means, please share it with us. I'd very much like to see it. It's with confidence that I think we can all be edified by this freedom we have in Christ Jesus.

The Tithe was never in question in the New Testament as he main writers Paul and Peter were both very familiar with Jewish Laws and the old Testament laws of God.

I'm not understanding how those men's familiarity with the Law has anything to do with a continuance of the tithe, or that the tithe had anything to do with anyone's wages. Could you please elaborate on this?

Jesus points out two things here. Something you have a worked for belongs to the government (Some percent) and something you have worked for belongs to God (Some percent). Remember this was over a coin and not some grain or other commodity. With all the biblical evidence pointing to a tenth of gross income, It would be wise to give the tenth.

Are you saying that Jesus was offering a new understanding as to how we give to God those things (plural) that are His; that He was then creating a new paradigm of money becoming a part of the tithe? Was the focus of that point actually in reference to money itself, or was He simply using a coin as an example of points far beyond the triviality of money itself?

Again, it appears that you're trying to create a parellel that simply is unsupported by the text. I can't find anywhere, in the Law governing the tithe, that it had anything to do with money, except in the instance where the appointed place was too far away to haul the tithe. In such a case, the only case of its kind in reference to money where the tithe was concerned, the Lord allowed for the sale of the tithe, and for the money to be spent for whatever the giver's heart "lusteth" after, even for "strong drink," that the giver may partake of his own tithe before the Lord, and share it with the Levite who may come by.

Deut 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

This is quite a contrast to the things we hear today. No preacher I have ever heard, who taught about the requirement to tithe from one's wages, has ever said that we can do as this same Lord stated in the verse above, which is to partake of one's own tithe at the appointed place. Why do you suppose that is? Is there something sinister about all this? Is it avarice? Why do you suppose most shy away from these facts from scripture, never daring to make mention of them?

Just out of curiosity, why do teachers and preachers teach about the Lord's demands that we tithe from our wages, which He nowhere stated, and yet not teach what ALL of scripture has to say on the subject? Was Jesus creating a new addition to the Law of the tithe when holding up that coin, thus making the tithe a matter of money, which the Law nowhere had ever stated? I hope you take the time to elaborate on this. Perhaps your defense of this position may be quite enlightening to us all. I for one am very curious about this, because if I'm wrong about it all, then I need to see it for myself, and make the appropriate adjustments in my beliefs.

Thanks for your time and consideration in answering the questions and explaining further. :embarasse

 

[ushalk]

beam, seed in the bible is not money anywhere. these people that come across and talk about seed being money are deceiving many people in the world today. seed is always preaching christ to people anywhere in the word of god. well in the new testament anyway.

 

[Blademan]

He was living in adultery and was not willing to leave that women even though God dealt with him. She wanted have his stuff and so fabricated the story about him and her daughter. She got the truck and house, he went to jail. This was the second guy she had done this to. unrepentant sin brings the full harvest.

Hmm. I'll have to give some thought to the idea that God used a false accusation and imprisonment to punish someone for alleged adultery. There are too many unanswered questions about that situation for me to accept it as truly being of God.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Jesus made it clear that they were to continue to tithe.

I agree, given that the Law was still in effect. It could be asked, "What would it have done to the testimony of Christ if He had taught the people to disobey the Law under which they still resided?"

He is head of the church and does not change. If they have to tithe then bless God so do we.

They also had to abstain from eating pork. Does that apply to us too?

Was he just talking to them because they were the religious leaders of the time and he had yet to bring in the new covenant? Were they suppose to tithe all the min and rue they got there hands on?

I would say, yes. They were still bound by the Law, to do as it commanded, to the letter and to the spirit; keeping in mind, of course, that the Law of which they were still bound, and to which you are referring, made no demands of a tithe from one's wages.

Abraham gave a tenth part of ALL. There is a reason this was mentioned three times in Hebrews chapter seven. All to me means all and we are Abraham's seed blessed with FAITHFUL Abraham.So, we are suppose to also give a tenth of ALL.

If we observe the totality of that situation with Abraham, a whole new portrait emerges in stark contrast to the usual practice of picking out the bits and pieces that fit into the smaller, misleading puzzle we hear taught today.

Abraham's property was still located up in Northern Canaan, rather than his taking the vastness of his wealth, servants, their wives and children, all his tents, oxen, cattle, sheep, grains, etc., etc., all on a mission of war to retrieve his nephew Lot.

He gave to Melchizedek a tenth of the spoils; property Abraham knew was never his to begin with, although it was under his charge until released to its rightful owners.

It's interesting that most will assume Abraham had the same character of a common vagabond, or renegade, by assuming that he considered the spoils to be his own property. He wanted no part of the spoils. He was wealthy already. His words and his actions confirm that he had no desire for the spoils, especially if keeping it all meant that the king of Sodom could boast of making him even more wealthy.

Every true bliever I've ever met confessed that if they retrieved property they knew was someone else's, they would return it in a heart-beat. And yet, those same people do a complete 180 by declaring the exact opposite about a man named Abraham, a man whom they have never met, when it comes to teaching about the tithe. Believing the worst about someone we've never met is always easy in our fleshly man.

 

[ushalk]

personally i think we have to many rules for what is or what is not salvation. i think if we are moved by the holy spirit then we give. if we are not then i dont think it matters whether we do or we dont in gods eyes. i think what does matter is where our heart lies.

 

[Brother Mike]

Tithe again.

Greetings Brother Blademan!! and Brother Beam!!

I don't want to retype what I have typed. The issue is Tithing (MONEY)

I already pointed where coin was mentioned.

It could be my assumption that Paul and Peter were tithers because of Jewish law. I don't think Paul being taught that all his life would just decide God does not come first with what Paul received. I believe He still gave a tenth of all he had come in. That can't be proven with scripture though.

Jesus constantly gave money, but it was never called a tithe. His only mention about tithe was to the pharisees and money was not mentioned.

Jesus did mention the coin and God was to be rendered what belonged to him concerning the coin or real spending money. He did not say what percent that would be though. He also mentioned that we are to pay taxes and the government determines what percent that is.

The Law is still in place today, I gave scriptures for that. Jesus made it clear what that that law is under. It's under the royal law of love.

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:

So you better not break that law or your guilty and come under the curse of the law. Not a good thing to be under.

We do have to keep commandments.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

So there are rules and things that we must do. Now, those things like eating pork, or doing all those religious things are not part of that love walk. God said he would write these laws on the tablets of our heart.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

So what covenant are we under? Many think there are a lot of covenants. Lets not confuse covenant with promises. There is just one covenant with revisions.

To Noah
Gen 9:9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
This covenant continues on to Noah's Seed.

Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

This covenant last forever and never ended.

This covenant with Abraham was the covenant that got the children of Israel out of Egypt.

Exo 6:5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant.

Because of their unbelief the Law was established even further. This is still the same extension of covenant that God made to Abraham as it was an everlasting covenant. It was God's original covenant to protect, to heal and take care of his people. Abraham walked by faith, these people not so much. So, laws had to be followed.

Despite all those other covenants that people make up, Danial only recognizes ONE covenant.

Dan 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

Remember what Jesus said. Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Dan 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

No flesh could keep the law. Something had to be done. A better covenant had to be brought in.



Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern showed to thee in the mount.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

So leaving off at the law of Moses a new Covenant was made with better promises. Right back to Abraham as it is written the Just shall live by faith.

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Abraham gave a tenth of all he brought in. (Hebrews 7 and All means ALL)

Jacob told the Lord he would give a Tenth of all God Gave him.

Gen 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

Notice Jacob did not start out with much. A rock was his pillow. However he kept his word to God and was greatly blessed in the end.

I get paid in Money, not corn or wheat. I have to use what I get paid in. Payment was different back then. I get paid Weekly so God gets that first fruits weekly. If I had a harvest of corn like the old days or flocks of cattle then once they were born or the field came up then God would receive his tenth. God has to be first, and I have to be ready to distribute.


1Ti 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

1Ti 6:18 [Charge them] to do good, to be rich in good works, to be liberal and generous of heart, ready to share [with others], (Amplified)

The first murder occurred over giving the first fruit.

Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

Abel gave the tenth of his first flock. He gained favor with God over this but lost his life. I am not going to mess with it. God gets his Tenth, I see a lot more scriptural evidence that giving 10 percent of what I make is correct. I love God, and I am not looking for loop holes. The just shall live by faith and if Jesus told the pharisees to give a tenth, Abraham gave a tenth (We are blessed with faithful Abraham !!!) and Jacob thought it a good idea. Then count me in!!

Thank you for the response!!
Everyone here be blessed.

oh and
Jesus Is Lord!!!

 

[Blademan]

...i think what does matter is where our heart lies.

That's what the scriptures say, so I too accept that as it's written.

 

[Blademan]

I don't want to retype what I have typed. The issue is Tithing (MONEY)

Do you mean by this that you think the OT tithe had anything to do with money?

I already pointed where coin was mentioned.

Yes, but what are your answers to the questions asked?

It could be my assumption that Paul and Peter were tithers because of Jewish law. I don't think Paul being taught that all his life would just decide God does not come first with what Paul received.

The questions still stands: What would those two men have tithed without any ownership of lands, herds or flocks? Are you saying that you have reason to believe that they had such things, because the OT Law demanded tithes from ONLY those things. Not even the fishermen were required to tithe of what they caught from the sea, so from where, may I ask, are you drawing your assumptions?

I believe He still gave a tenth of all he had come in. That can't be proven with scripture though.

Very true. What we can say for sure is that those two men were not required to tithe unless they had an increase from planted fields, orchards, vineyards, or an increase from flocks or herds. That's it. Jesus didn't tithe because, so far as we know, His family had no fields, flocks or herds.

Jesus constantly gave money, but it was never called a tithe. His only mention about tithe was to the pharisees and money was not mentioned.

Good point. It would have been completely foreign to those people for Him to suddenly create out of thin air a requirement that money become a tithable item.

Jesus did mention the coin and God was to be rendered what belonged to him concerning the coin or real spending money.

Um, no. If we read that text again, Jesus pointed out that the image on that coin was Caesars, and thus it belonged to him as something to be rendered to Him. He at no point in that dissertation stated or implied that money was to be given to God. Now, if you can show me in the language of that text that my analysis is wrong, then I'm very willing to give it a look-see.

So you better not break that law or your guilty and come under the curse of the law. Not a good thing to be under.

But that moral Law of which you speak made no demands for tithes. Please elaborate so that we can make sure that we're all on the same page.

I will have to get back to this later. I have class in a few minutes.:wink:

 

[Trishann]

I would not want my Pastor to have a second job. His work load is far beyond we can imagine. Plus it is not like a 9 to 5 job, it is a 24 hour work load. I would not want to put more on my Pastor by not supporting him through the church. To me that would be a disgrace, and how would that speak to the world that we won't take care of our own.

When my daughter was young someone told her that wood was evil because a tavern was made of wood. I told her houses and churches and other good things are made of wood too. It's not the wood that is bad but it is what people do with it. Things have change and churches are build but for the purpose to get the gospel out and teach people to have a relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ. The purpose is the same in the bible and that is to get the gospel of Christ out.

Your sister in Christ, Trish

 

[Brother Mike]

Brother Blademan !!!

1) I think somewhere this was bout tithing Money. Lots of post

2) I already responded about the money thing. It's what I have to give to God.. I can't tithe cows or chickens.

3) Fish were sold for coin. Coin last longer than a fish. Did they tithe that coin from fish sold? It would be speculation if we think they did as there is no scripture.

4) My quote:

Jesus did mention the coin and God was to be rendered what belonged to him concerning the coin or real spending money.

Your quote:

Um, no. If we read that text again, Jesus pointed out that the image on that coin was Caesars, and thus it belonged to him as something to be rendered to Him. He at no point in that dissertation stated or implied that money was to be given to God. Now, if you can show me in the language of that text that my analysis is wrong, then I'm very willing to give it a look-see.

The whole question was, is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar? Jesus asked for the tribute money. This is money used to buy goods and services. Jesus told them to give Caesar what is his and give God what is his. He did this while holding the coin.

1) The passage states that something does belong to Caesar and something belongs to God.

2) It's Caesar's mug shot on the coin so I think we can safely say that money goes to Caesar (the part that belongs to him)

3) God's mug shot is not on the coin. Does any of that belong to God?
or do we render something else to God?

Jesus said something belongs to God and he just happens to be describing money. I think a logical conclusion would be to assume God is suppose to get some of Caesar's tribute money. After all he did not stop anyone from throwing money in to the treasure when the Widow came to give her money. Everything in the earth belongs to God. It was all created out of the substance of HIS faith.

Psa 24:1 A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD's, and the fullness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

I understand what you are saying, but looking at the parable of the talents and being faithful with money would tend me to believe Jesus was referring to money as he talked about the tribute to Caesar.

4) oops, I hope I did not sound like (NOT) tithing was breaking the Law. My statement was more to expound on the fact that the laws of sin and death are still running strong today, and breaking that love commandment puts us under the Whole Law.

We both have the same bible and find the same scriptures.
I conclude that it would be wrong to tell someone to tithe and put them in any condemnation for not doing so. The New Testament gives us plenty of things we should be doing and not doing. tithing is not mentioned as something we must do, but there is lots of talk about giving. Reading all the context of the new Testament it would seem this giving would well exceed 10 percent of our income. Should we start a thread called (Are we ripping God off?)
I think we all need to see what more we can do for God even if we do give 10 percent at every payday.

Trishann
Thank you for your response Sister!!

Ya, I don't want my pastor driving a beat up old car or having to work another Job. Some pastors do have to work another job just to make ends meet. Just think if everyone was faithful with 10 percent of their Gross income every time they got paid. What a blessing to the pastor that would be and the work of God. Most Christians don't even give God a thought when they get money.

I get sad when I see people bad mouthing those pastors that do have money. My pastor has a jet plane, nice cars, an awesome house. God has blessed him tremendously. He did not start out that way though. He also gives God 70 percent of his Gross income every time he gets paid. He is working up to 90 percent of his income.
Is it wrong for pastors to be extremely rich?
We don't think it wrong if some CEO of playboy magazine owns a plane or has the nice things. We don't bat an eye if money is wasted on ungodly trash.
Someone that is spreading the Gospel and getting people delivered should be some of the richest people in the World. Working for someone that created everything and lives in a place with streets paved with gold, should pay very well.
God is our father and he is not Broke by any means. I would rather have all the money in the hands of Gods people than the devils.

God Bless.
Jesus Is Lord.

 

[jiggyfly]

Ya, I don't want my pastor driving a beat up old car or having to work another Job. Some pastors do have to work another job just to make ends meet. Just think if everyone was faithful with 10 percent of their Gross income every time they got paid. What a blessing to the pastor that would be and the work of God. Most Christians don't even give God a thought when they get money.

I get sad when I see people bad mouthing those pastors that do have money. My pastor has a jet plane, nice cars, an awesome house. God has blessed him tremendously. He did not start out that way though. He also gives God 70 percent of his Gross income every time he gets paid. He is working up to 90 percent of his income.
Is it wrong for pastors to be extremely rich?
We don't think it wrong if some CEO of playboy magazine owns a plane or has the nice things. We don't bat an eye if money is wasted on ungodly trash.
Someone that is spreading the Gospel and getting people delivered should be some of the richest people in the World. Working for someone that created everything and lives in a place with streets paved with gold, should pay very well.
God is our father and he is not Broke by any means. I would rather have all the money in the hands of Gods people than the devils.

First of all, if your pastor is broadcasting what he gives then he has already received his reward. Sounds a lot like some of the religious folk that Jesus warned, boasting of tithing even their mint leaves.

Spreading the gospel of what? Getting people delivered?

BTW I believe we are much better following Jesus and His example then that of rich pastors.

This stuff was not true of any of the first disciples and I seriously doubt it is true of any since. Does the term "deny self" mean anything? Paul was a bond slave to Christ do you know what it means? The only scriptures I find dealing with the riches of this world are warnings.

Now back to the OP, tithing. Do you even understand the law of the old covenant tithe? Read Deuteronomy 14 and then tell me your a tither.

 

[Blademan]

I would not want my Pastor to have a second job. His work load is far beyond we can imagine. Plus it is not like a 9 to 5job, it is a 24 hour work load.

That's one reason why we don't have a "pastor". We didn't want to place someone in a position to experience "pastoral burnout". That simply isn't fair. That's why we all do the ministry ourselves.

Plus, we didn't want a professional orator presiding over our communal gatherings. Mutual minitry and edification makes our gatherings a much more uplifting, edifying and exhilerating experience for us all every time we get together.

 

[jiggyfly]

I would not want my Pastor to have a second job. His work load is far beyond we can imagine. Plus it is not like a 9 to 5 job, it is a 24 hour work load. I would not want to put more on my Pastor by not supporting him through the church. To me that would be a disgrace, and how would that speak to the world that we won't take care of our own.

When my daughter was young someone told her that wood was evil because a tavern was made of wood. I told her houses and churches and other good things are made of wood too. It's not the wood that is bad but it is what people do with it. Things have change and churches are build but for the purpose to get the gospel out and teach people to have a relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ. The purpose is the same in the bible and that is to get the gospel of Christ out.

Your sister in Christ, Trish

If one considers their service to the Lord and His Kingdom a "job" in which they should recieve a salary, doesn't that make them a hireling?

 

[Chad]

If one considers their service to the Lord and His Kingdom a "job" in which they should recieve a salary, doesn't that make them a hireling?

Brother, my pastor labors full time like any other person with a full time "job". He loves what he does to serve the Lord. However, how would you expect him to feed his family if he pastors/labors for the church full time without a salary? Do you think GOD looks down on him and expects him to do all of this for free? As a matter of fact, its not about earning but receiving what is necessary (money) to feed and clothe his family - like anyone else out there.

In the OT, people met up in buildings to gather. Why would it matter if it were someone's house or a commercial building for example? In the end, as long as each individual walks with Christ accordingly and as long as the pastor(s) / preacher(s) preach what is Scriptural what does the rest matter?

We all live under the same sun, need the same Jesus, need to feed our families, need to get by. We all are accountable for our actions. That is regardless if we choose to tithe or not. Had to go off topic from the OP to respond to your comment that I quoted.

As for tithe, its an endless debate. Disagreements will never end until Jesus returns. No matter how much you preach and how accurate it is, a bunch out there will disagree with you and/or the Scripture's actual interpretation which can only be granted by the Holy Spirit Himself as it is Holy Spirit inspired Word of GOD.

As for our responsibility of taking care of the poor........ This is the worlds opinion!! People get upset when they see churches prosper. The attitude is that it's our responsibility to feed and clothe everyone. They see very little value of the gospel being preached (cost tons of money). They get upset if our pastor has a nice car or God forbid owns an airplane to preach around the world. They think it's a waste of good money when God prospers Christians. We were never told to feed all the poor. We are told to take care of the things of God however and it would take a good bible study to see what people God was talking about when it came to feeding and clothing others. James puts it a very good way.

Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food.......

The key words are Brother and Sister. Those that refuse Jesus belong to the Devil. It's our job to share the Good news, not to make sure those that reject God are feed and clothed. It's the same in the old Testament. God does have ministerys set aside for this type of thing, but it's not the call of every church or believer. I have paid bills for Christians as the Spirit of God has asked me to or fed others (Many times). If The chruch gave money to every begger that comes along who has no interest in God, then soon no church would have money. We don't need to continue to empower people to serve the devil and we are not others source. God is or should be.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (Not feed every creature)

Talk about cold hearted twisting of Scripture. You speak for yourself, not for Scripture.

Tell me Mike, if you pass by a homeless man who asked for spare change, would you refuse to give it to him if he said he does not accept Jesus?

Mark 16:15, you completely are making your own interpretation. What Jesus said there, he was talking specifically about preaching the Gospel. That was the topic. It had nothing to do with anything but commanding His disciples to preach the Word. How you come up with a whole new subject of feeding the poor I do not know.

You might as well promote martians (aliens) because John 3:16 says He died for the world, but the verse did not say "earth" so therefore its possible he meant other "worlds" too. You get the point now?

Old Testament

• "Do not take advantage of a widow or an orphan." Exodus 22:22
• "Do not deny justice to your poor people in their lawsuits." Exodus 23:6
• "During the seventh year, let the land lie unplowed and unused. Then the poor among your people may get food from it, and the wild animals may eat what they leave. Do the same with your vineyard and your olive grove." Exodus 23:11
• "Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:10
• "Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly." Leviticus 19:15
• "When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 23:22
• "If one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells some of his property, his nearest relative is to come and redeem what his countryman has sold. . . . If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you. . . . If one of your countrymen becomes poor among you and sells himself to you, do not make him work as a slave." Leviticus 25:25, 35, 39
• "If an alien or a temporary resident among you becomes rich and one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells himself to the alien living among you or to a member of the alien's clan, he retains the right of redemption." Leviticus 25:47-48
• "He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing." Deuteronomy 10:18
• "At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns, so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied." Deuteronomy 14:28-29
• "However, there should be no poor among you, for in the land the LORD your God is giving you to possess as your inheritance, he will richly bless you." Deuteronomy 15:4
• "If there is a poor man among your brothers in any of the towns of the land that the LORD your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward your poor brother." Deuteronomy 15:7
• "Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near, so that you do not show ill will toward your needy brother and give him nothing. He may then appeal to the LORD against you, and you will be found guilty of sin." Deuteronomy 15:9
• "There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land." Deuteronomy 15:11
• "Do not take advantage of a hired man who is poor and needy, whether he is a brother Israelite or an alien living in one of your towns." Deuteronomy 24:14
• "Do not deprive the alien or the fatherless of justice, or take the cloak of the widow as a pledge." Deuteronomy 24:17
• "When you are harvesting in your field and you overlook a sheaf, do not go back to get it. Leave it for the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. When you beat the olives from your trees, do not go over the branches a second time. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow. When you harvest the grapes in your vineyard, do not go over the vines again. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow." Deuteronomy 24:19-21
• "'Cursed is the man who withholds justice from the alien, the fatherless or the widow.' Then all the people shall say, Amen!'" Deuteronomy 27:19
• "He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the ash heap; he seats them with princes and has them inherit a throne of honor." 1 Samuel 2:8
• "as the time when the Jews got relief from their enemies, and as the month when their sorrow was turned into joy and their mourning into a day of celebration. He wrote them to observe the days as days of feasting and joy and giving presents of food to one another and gifts to the poor." Esther 9:22
• "When daylight is gone, the murderer rises up and kills the poor and needy; in the night he steals forth like a thief." Job 24:14
• "because I rescued the poor who cried for help, and the fatherless who had none to assist him." Job 29:12
• "Have I not wept for those in trouble? Has not my soul grieved for the poor?" Job 30:25
• "If I have denied the desires of the poor or let the eyes of the widow grow weary." Job 31:16
• "The LORD is a refuge for the oppressed, a stronghold in times of trouble." Psalm 9:9
• "But the needy will not always be forgotten, nor the hope of the afflicted ever perish." Psalm 9:18
• " Because of the oppression of the weak and the groaning of the needy, I will now arise, says the LORD, I will protect them from those who malign them. " Psalm 12:5
• "You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor, but the LORD is their refuge." Psalm 14:6
• "This poor man called, and the LORD heard him; he saved him out of all his troubles." Psalm 34:6
• "My whole being will exclaim, Who is like you, 0 LORD? You rescue the poor from those too strong for them, the poor and needy from those who rob them.'" Psalm 35:10
• "The wicked draw the sword and bend the bow to bring down the poor and needy, to slay those whose ways are upright." Psalm 37:14
• "Yet I am poor and needy; may the Lord think of me. You are my help and my deliverer; O my God, do not delay." Psalm 40:17
• "A father to the fatherless, a defender of widows, is God in his holy dwelling." Psalm 68:5
• "Your people settled in it, and from your bounty, 0 God, you provided for the poor." Psalm 68:10
• "The poor will see and be glad-- you who seek God, may your hearts live! The LORD hears the needy and does not despise his captive people." Psalm 69:32-33
• "Yet I am poor and needy; come quickly to me, O God. You are my help and my deliverer; O LORD , do not delay." Psalm 70:5
• "He will defend the afflicted among the people and save the children of the needy; he will crush the oppressor." Psalm 72:4
• "For he will deliver the needy who cry out, the afflicted who have no one to help. He will take pity on the weak and the needy and save the needy from death." Psalm 72:12-13
• "Do not let the oppressed retreat in disgrace; may the poor and needy praise your name." Psalm 74:21
• "Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed. Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked." Psalm 82:3-4
• "But he lifted the needy out of their affliction and increased their families like flocks." Psalm 107:41
• "For he stands at the right hand of the needy one, to save his life from those who condemn him." Psalm 109:31
• "He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor, his righteousness endures forever; his horn will be lifted high in honor." Psalm 112:9
• "He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the ash heap;" Psalm 113:7
• "I will bless her with abundant provisions; her poor will I satisfy with food." Psalm 132:15
• "I know that the LORD secures justice for the poor and upholds the cause of the needy." Psalm 140:12
• "He upholds the cause of the oppressed and gives food to the hungry. The LORD sets prisoners free" Psalm 146:7
• "The LORD watches over the alien and sustains the fatherless and the widow, but he frustrates the ways of the wicked." Psalm 146:9
• "I know that the LORD secures justice for the poor and upholds the cause of the needy." Proverbs 13:23
• "He who despises his neighbor sins, but blessed is he who is kind to the needy." Proverbs 14:21
• "He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God." Proverbs 14:31
• "The LORD tears down the proud man's house but he keeps the widow's boundaries intact." Proverbs 15:25
• "Better to be lowly in spirit and among the oppressed than to share plunder with the proud." Proverbs 16:19
• "He who mocks the poor shows contempt for their Maker; whoever gloats over disaster will not go unpunished." Proverbs 17:5
• "He who is kind to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will reward him for what he has done." Proverbs 19:17
• "If a man shuts his ears to the cry of the poor, he too will cry out and not be answered." Proverbs 21:13
• "A generous man will himself be blessed, for he shares his food with the poor." Proverbs 22:9
• "He who oppresses the poor to increase his wealth and he who gives gifts to the rich -- both come to poverty." Proverbs 22:16
• "Do not exploit the poor because they are poor and do not crush the needy in court." Proverbs 22:22
• "A ruler who oppresses the poor is like a driving rain that leaves no crops." Proverbs 28:3
• "He who gives to the poor will lack nothing, but he who closes his eyes to them receives many curses." Proverbs 28:27
• "The righteous care about justice for the poor, but the wicked have no such concern." Proverbs 29:7
• "those whose teeth are swords and whose jaws are set with knives to devour the poor from the earth, the needy from among mankind." Proverbs 30:14
• "Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy." Proverbs 31:9
• "She opens her arms to the poor and extends her hands to the needy." Proverbs 31:20
• "If you see the poor oppressed in a district, and justice and rights denied, do not be surprised at such things; for one official is eyed by a higher one, and over them both are others higher still." Ecclesiastes 5:8
• "Learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow." Isaiah 1:17
• "The LORD enters into judgment against the elders and leaders of his people: It is you who have ruined my vineyard; the plunder from the poor is in your houses. What do you mean by crushing my people and grinding the faces of the poor?' declares the Lord, the LORD Almighty." Isaiah 3:14-15
• "to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless." Isaiah 10:2
• "With righteousness he will judge the needy; with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked." Isaiah 11:4
• "The poorest of the poor will find pasture, and the needy will lie down in safety. But your root I will destroy by famine; it will slay your survivors." Isaiah 14:30
• "You have been a refuge for the poor, a refuge for the needy in his distress, a shelter from the storm and a shade from the heat. For the breath of the ruthless is like a storm driving against a wall." Isaiah 25:4
• "Once more the humble will rejoice in the LORD ; the needy will rejoice in the Holy One of Israel." Isaiah 29:19
• "The scoundrel's methods are wicked, he makes up evil schemes to destroy the poor with lies, even when the plea of the needy is just." Isaiah 32:7
• "The poor and needy search for water, but there is none; their tongues are parched with thirst. But I the LORD will answer them; I, the God of Israel, will not forsake them." Isaiah 41:17
• "Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke? Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter-- when you see the naked, to clothe him, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?" Isaiah 58:6-7
• "If you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry and satisfy the needs of the oppressed, then your light will rise in the darkness, and your night will become like the noonday." Isaiah 58:10
• "The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners." Isaiah 61:1
• "On your clothes men find the lifeblood of the innocent poor, though you did not catch them breaking in. Yet in spite of all this you say I am innocent.'" Jeremiah 2:34
• "I thought, These are only the poor; they are foolish, for they do not know the way of the LORD, the requirements of their God.'" Jeremiah 5:4
• "(They) have grown fat and sleek. Their evil deeds have no limit; they do not plead the case of the fatherless to win it, they do not defend the rights of the poor." Jeremiah 5:28
• "if you do not oppress the alien, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm," Jeremiah 7:6
• "This is what the LORD says: Do what is just and right. Rescue from the hand of his oppressor the one who has been robbed. Do no wrong or violence to the alien, the fatherless or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place." Jeremiah 22:3
• "'He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?" declares the LORD." Jeremiah 22:16
• "Sing to the LORD! Give praise to the LORD! He rescues the life of the needy from the hands of the wicked." Jeremiah 20:13
• "Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy." Ezekiel 16:49
• "He does not oppress anyone, but returns what he took in pledge for a loan. He does not commit robbery but gives his food to the hungry and provides clothing for the naked." Ezekiel 18:7
• "The people of the land practice extortion and commit robbery; they oppress the poor and needy and mistreat the alien, denying them justice." Ezekiel 22:29
• "This is what the LORD says: For three sins of Israel, even for four, I will not turn back [my wrath]. They sell the righteous for silver, and the needy for a pair of sandals. They trample on the heads of the poor as upon the dust of the ground and deny justice to the oppressed. Father and son use the same girl and so profane my holy name.'" Amos 2:6-7
• "Hear this word, you cows of Bashan on Mount Samaria, you women who oppress the poor and crush the needy and say to your husbands, Bring us some drinks!'" Amos 4:1
• "Hear this, you who trample the needy and do away with the poor of the land." Amos 8:4
• "Buying the poor with silver and the needy for a pair of sandals, selling even the sweepings with the wheat." Amos 8:6
• "Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the alien or the poor. In your hearts do not think evil of each other." Zechariah 7:10
• " So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me,' says the LORD Almighty." Malachi 3:5

New Testament

• "Jesus answered, If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'" Matthew 19:21
• "For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in." Matthew 25:35
• "They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely." Mark 12:40
• "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because He has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed." Luke 4:18
• "So he replied to the messengers, Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor.'" Luke 7:22
• "Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys." Luke 12:33
• "But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind." Luke 14:13
• "When Jesus heard this, he said to him, You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'" Luke 18:22
• "Beware of the teachers of the law . . . They devour your widows' houses . . . Such men will be punished severely." Luke 20:46-47
• "'Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages.' He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it." John 12:5
• "In Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (which, when translated, is Dorcas), who was always doing good and helping the poor." Acts 9:36
• "Cornelius stared at him in fear. What is it, Lord?' he asked. The angel answered, Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God.'" Acts 10:4
• "After an absence of several years, I came to Jerusalem to bring my people gifts for the poor and to present offerings." Acts 24:17
• "On the contrary: If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.'" Romans 12:20
• "For Macedonia and Achaia were pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem." Romans 15:26
• "All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do." Galatians 2:10
• "Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need." 1 Timothy 5:3
• "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." James 1:27
• "Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, 'Here's a good seat for you,' but say to the poor man, 'You stand there' or 'Sit on the floor by my feet,' have you not discriminated among yourselves and becomes judges with evil thoughts? Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom He promised those who love Him? But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court?" James 2:2-6
• "If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth." 1 John 3:17-18

 

[Trishann]

Jiggyfly I don't know the answer to your question. One thing I do know a good thing is happening and the gospel of Jesus Christ is being preach, my husband was saved because of it.

If I thought for one moment that the tithes were being abused my family and I would leave and find another place, where the purpose is for salvation of souls.


Blademan definitely burn-out can happen not just to Pastors but anyone that works in ministry. My Pastor do have good common sense and a wise man, so hopefully this won't happen.

Your sister in Christ, Trish

 

[Brother Mike]

I read Deut.

jiggyfly

Glad for the Response Brother!!

My Pastor makes it public record of all the thousands of dollars that come in and where it goes. He also Gives us record of his personal life and tithing. When Churches get lots of money then then public eye is locked on them and it's best to have everything out in the open.
As you know there are a lot of BAD churches out there and money hungry, not gospel hungry. My Pastor also never told us what he actually makes from the board. The Lord also told him to Sow all his teaching CD's (FREE) that is Thousands he could have made but God first. Our church spends about 60,000 a WEEK in free material that is professionally produced. The money has always come in somehow because God is involved. We are believing for sowing 100,000 a week and we are getting there.

I never said being rich was the Example. I said anyone that works for God and spends time in the scripture, should be paid better than the top CEO's around the world. Is there anything more important than were you spend the rest of eternity at?

Deny self:

Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Luk 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
Luk 9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
Luk 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.
Luk 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

The scriptures do not teach that having money means your gonna roast in hell at the end. Jesus did not say that. He gives some conditions here like being ashamed of him. He makes it clear to pick up our cross and follow him. In short Jesus comes first. It did not say anything about being broke. Paul told us to put our body in subjection. Carnal thoughts and desires or having our mind on worldly things can be BAD for a Christian. Even broke Christians that live pay check to pay check can be guilty of coveting and loving money. The Love of money is Evil, it makes a lousy God. I have no problem parting with it if the Lord tells me so. It's Gods Job to supply my needs, not my job or what I bring in. I will admit that I have had to put some things down that I really enjoy, but God first. God has had me secretly pay someones bills or pay their rent. I have bought lots of food for people. All this not knowing how the heck I was going to just meet my needs. I always have come out way ahead though, obeying him.

Does the bible tell us we can be Rich? Or God will make us Rich?
We know the warnings about trusting in riches, we know it's better to sow money instead of keeping it where the moths can get it. (Treasure in Heaven)

God gives us power to get wealth to establish his covenant. Deut 8:18
He takes pleasure in the prosperity of his servant. Psa 35:27
Wealth of the sinner belongs to us. Pro 13:22
God makes ya rich with no sorrow added Pro 10:22
Jabez just asked to be hooked up and Bam!! 1 Chronicles 4:9-10
God gives us ALL things to richly enjoy. 1 Tim 6:17
God multiple's your seed sown. 2 Cor 9:10
The chastisement of our peace was on Jesus. Isa 53:5
(Word Peace is Shaw-lome Happy, healthy, safe, prosperous.)
on and
on and
on and
one more.
Psa 112:1 Praise ye the LORD. Blessed is the man that feareth the LORD, that delighteth greatly in his commandments.
Psa 112:2 His seed shall be mighty upon earth: the generation of the upright shall be blessed.
Psa 112:3 Wealth and riches shall be in his house: and his righteousness endureth forever.

Shall be in his house means just that. We are the righteousness of God through Christ Jesus and we are told to fear the Lord (Deep reverence)
That means us Brother. God has not changed a bit.

I see the issue here Brothers. Different denominations, different beliefs.
I read the same things you do. Money is not a god, or to be coveted. I also see that God never designed us to be broke.
I believe in giving 10 percent of what I make. I believe to offer more when the opportunity comes up. I am convinced the scriptures point to tithing and it's a good way to keep God first concerning money. I get paid, God is the first thing to take care of.

I started out being not being sure about this tithing stuff. I was raised in a Presbyterian church and Baptist church. We were taught that it's not scriptural to give 10 percent of your gross income. More money for me I thought. They also did not believe God was willing to Heal everyone or worse, all that stuff passed away somewhere.
not to much to get excited about there.

Helping the Devil getting his deeds done for a lot of years, I came back to the place where I knew I needed God. I just did not need a (You never know what God is going to do or God is mysterious in all his ways God.) I really needed help.
I got a hold of some of Peter Ruckman's material on the authority of the King James. I read everything I could from him even the books about all the healing, tongues and other stuff passing away.
What He helped me realize is that the Word of God is forever and true. If God said it, then nothing is going to change it. He also taught me that the Bible is not just some man made up stuff. God Wrote it though Men and every word of it matters.

I understand the passage about Deut 14. I know the post are long but I did comment on it.
Like I said. I see Abraham tithe ALL, I see Jacob Tithe all that God gave him. I see that bringing the tithe in the store house gives God the opportunity to give back more than you can receive. (Not seen it yet, but does not make it any less true.)
I started to tithe faithfully, and noticed that all my money issues vanished even though I was bringing less in. In the natural it just did not make any sense. Then I stated to sow more money on top of the tithing and I noticed God started to deal with me on giving to more people. I listed just a few things that came from God. Like the women that took me out and just bought my family a new vehicle. It was a van and we had been praying for one.
I am convinced that if we honor God, he will honor everything we do. I have seen to much to change on this. Just in our church Last week a couple that had been constantly sowing into other peoples mortgage's for a few years someone gave them a lump sum of 69,000 dollars to pay on their own mortgage.The Lord told that person to do that for them. Each seed produces after it's own kind, or you will Reap what you do sow. God is not mocked!! I was impressed with that.


Now, What is the Gospel of Christ? I think we might find many different answers to this question.

Love you all.... thank you for taking the time to respond.
God Bless.
ya.
Jesus Is Lord...