Rethinking the tithe
- Thread starter jiggyfly
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This depends on how you define "scriptural":
1) It is commanded by scripture in the NT for us today
or
2) There's no prohibition against it for us today, so it's therefore scriptural.
If you read the record once again, you'll see that what was taken to Jerusalem wasn't taken to the temple. It was given to the needy believers in that city and the surounding province.
What's strikingly absent from your words is the direction as to WHERE God wants our giving to go. The first-fruits portion of our giving be handed over to support buildings, programs, et al is supporting something from which the members reap direct benefit. That's not giving to God.
So, the Lord allegedly told you to support a religious organization first and foremost before meeing needs of fellow believers, and those in your surrounding community?
It's quite possible that those who don't "tithe" to your religious organization may be more faithful in their giving than you ever were in your whole life.
This may be that author's opinion, but he's dead wrong.
Where did the word of God ever show anyone having to tithe from their wages? Please enlighten us all. I suspect the author of that book certainly can't show it, so perhaps you can?
This, of course, ignores the many people who were faithful tithers from their wages, and yet still suffered tremendous loss and hardships. This good-ship-lollipop approach to biblical giving is an irresponsible denial of the truth of what scripture actually teaches. We're living in a fallen world, and if persecution ends simply because one hands over his giving to a man-made, religious organization, well, this should be a warning to those who are no longer under the cross-hairs of Satan's guns.
This begs the question. Jesus also told a man to go and offer up the blood, brunt sacrifices on the altar. Just how far are you willing to subjectively pick and choose what parts of the Law apply today, and which do not?
So, your belief is infallible? It can withstand any and all scrutiny? That statement smacks of a sprinkling of pride, does it not? If scripture can be shown to prove you wrong, what then? You still won't accept anything apart from your present beliefs along this line?
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Pride? I see pride in you, not others here. You posted post after post doing nothing about nick-picking people left and right. I sense pride in you. Can your statements withstand "scrutiny"?
You made 5 consecutive posts mocking others, yet you provided absolutely no Scripture to back up your statements.
Why not follow simple forum rules and back up your points with Scripture? How is tearing others down with your statements going to edify them and teach them the truth, yet with no Scripture quoted on your part?
That's quite alright, because it proves me point here at least
If pride is indeed my problem, then you're right that my statements could not withstand scrutiny. I agree with you. Besides, you appear to be mistaking my confidence in God's word for pride and mockery of other individuals. I may poke a little fun at an approach, or viewpoint, but mockery?
Come now. Let's keep our feet on the ground, shall we. If I were going to mock you personally, I'd level a more direct address of mockery toward your character, or lack thereof. My approach to something, be it the nail on the head, or missing the mark, have no bearing upon my character, or lack thereof.
I also saw no reason to repost the same verses from scripture since what I did several times was question their take on those same versus.
Additionally, how can I quote something that doesn't exist? I clearly asked where the Law ever demanded that wage-earners were required to hand over a tenth of their income to the Levites. I'm still hearing nothing but the deafening roar of silence in answer to that question. What's there to post? I'm unclear on your expectations in regard to my simple questions. If I launch into a dissertation on the subject, I will indeed quote the relevant verses. Until then, I'm simply questioning, and making observations.
It's an undeniable fact that many false teachers behind pulpits draw incorrect parellels between the OT tithe, which had nothing to do with wages, and wages of today. Maybe your precher doesn't do this, but many do, and their victims are multitudinous. Shattering the shackles of that bondage is a duty to which I take great pleasure. Giving freely is a wonderous freedom we've all been given, to which we ALL have a right.
I mocked nobody. I was attacking the statements. I do not engage ad hominem.
I never laid down the charge at anyone's feet in this forum that these beliefs originated with them. The vast majority of this stuff originated from other sources, and are simply being parrotted here. Being a full time student right now, I've long since put aside the foolishness of "stars in the eyes" for scholars. They're just as prone to error as anyone else. I'm surrounded by "scholars" who teach students that evolution is a proven fact. Some of these clowns have more than one Ph.D. So what? The real issue to me is what scripture actually teaches, with the blinders of religion and its many false teachings discarded into the waste pile where they all belong.
That's quite alright, because it proves me point here at least
Oh? Hmm. This software and/or its MYSQL database backend must be faulty, because I can't seem to find an answer from you in regard to my question put to you. If your point is proven because I asked questions, and called onto the carpet the statements made, and held a few feet to the fire, then you seem to have a strange sense of duty in answering directly the questions put to you. That's not to say that you owe me and everyone else anything at all. We're all a bunch microcosmic individuals in this world of religion and paradigm, right?
However, I humbly ask that you answer my question, that I may then understand your definition, and proceed accordingly, as you have requested.
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Spare me your arrogance. This is a Christian forum and everyone is expected to treat others politely, with love not arrogance.
Clowns? These clowns you judge and insult are people GOD loves just as much as you. So you are indeed judgmental, according to the Word. C.S. Lewis was a hardcore atheist prior to his conversion. Did GOD give up on him and assume him to be a "clown"? I think not. Instead of calling them clowns, did you pray for them? So you want to "poke fun" at my members here as well?
Here's Scripture for you
1 Corinthians 13:4-7
Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
Don't come here poking fun at anyone with your childish arrogance. This is not a playground for religion. This is a Christian forum to edify the body and reach out to the lost. Not call them clowns or poke fun at them.
Also, don't say things here you would not say to someone's face. Hypocrisy is cowardly.
Jiggyfly I definitely understand where you are coming from especially if you are mark in a church according to tithes. Sometimes messages from the pulpit can bring condemnation to one instead of conviction.
But I also believe tithes is a good thing because it keeps a church open for people to come together to worship in unity. In a church, that is where I met my Savior Lord Jesus, not from outside of the church. Also the church has many function that helps others to grow in the Lord, and also gives out to others. If we don't paid tithes how could it go on, how can the bills be paid for so the people can come together in unity. Personally I feel like I am part of being involve in winning people to the Lord because now people can come to a place and learn that God loves them.
I know that on one to one we can do this, but sometimes people aren't surrounded by christian people on the outside world, and they stumble into the house of the Lord and it change their lifes forever. How could this place stay open if no one is faithful to pay tithes to it to keep it running?
One of my daughter feels like you do in a lot of what you said and I love her very much, but I would hate to see churches to close down because no one will be faithful in paying tithes in it, a place where we can be feed spiritually.
Your sister in Christ, Trish
But I also believe tithes is a good thing because it keeps a church open for people to come together to worship in unity. In a church, that is where I met my Savior Lord Jesus, not from outside of the church. Also the church has many function that helps others to grow in the Lord, and also gives out to others. If we don't paid tithes how could it go on, how can the bills be paid for so the people can come together in unity. Personally I feel like I am part of being involve in winning people to the Lord because now people can come to a place and learn that God loves them.
I know that on one to one we can do this, but sometimes people aren't surrounded by christian people on the outside world, and they stumble into the house of the Lord and it change their lifes forever. How could this place stay open if no one is faithful to pay tithes to it to keep it running?
One of my daughter feels like you do in a lot of what you said and I love her very much, but I would hate to see churches to close down because no one will be faithful in paying tithes in it, a place where we can be feed spiritually.
Your sister in Christ, Trish
I understand you also, but we disagree as to the identity of the Lord's House. I see it as something totally spiritual. I was born-again in a living room and seen many born-again in my living room.
Jigglyfly that is wonderful that you were saved in a home and you saw others get saved too, what a wonderful blessing to heard these thing!
I don't quite understand what you mean about "identity of the Lord's house".
A church is a group of believers that has a relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ.
Just like a home someone have to pay that rent or mortgage, because that home would not be open up for anyone to enter in. And someone took that opportunity to share the love of God. The same way with a church, someone have to pay for it so others may enter in and the gospel can be preach. Teach others to have a relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ and to grow in Christ. Maybe it is the religion that is confusing but the true church is about a relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ.
Your sister in Christ, Trish
I don't quite understand what you mean about "identity of the Lord's house".
A church is a group of believers that has a relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ.
Just like a home someone have to pay that rent or mortgage, because that home would not be open up for anyone to enter in. And someone took that opportunity to share the love of God. The same way with a church, someone have to pay for it so others may enter in and the gospel can be preach. Teach others to have a relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ and to grow in Christ. Maybe it is the religion that is confusing but the true church is about a relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ.
Your sister in Christ, Trish
How do you suppose it happen the first 3 centuries?
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I agree, but times have greatly changed from nearly 2,000 years ago brother. The church [building] is the common place for gathering for worship, fellowship, studies, special events, reaching the lost, homeless, hopeless, etc. Its not about religion. For those churches who act religiously, let GOD deal with them and judge them according to their ways. Not us. Now, what about the least of them? The lost souls. Will they know which "house" to go to to seek help and learn about Jesus? No, but they see a church building and church sign welcoming them in, they go there.
For us, the actual body (believers) of Christ gather at the church building we're part of. The church I attend is inside a movie theater. They have expenses like anyone else, business or home owner. If the attendees did not give offering to the church, they would not survive at all neither would the pastor be able to feed his family. He works full time in this ministry like anyone else, non stop. He is held fully accountable and is not seeking for himself.
As for those who tithe because they want to give (return to the Lord) that's their business between them and GOD. I'm one of them. I give because I have and desire to give to those in need and to further the kingdom of GOD. I don't do it religiously, I do it freely.
Here is a simple, short excellent article: Should we tithe off our gross or net income?
We're not commanded to give 10% in the NT, right. However, we have responsibilities to those in need (whether the homeless or supplying the church its needs to get by each month).
Jiggy, I agree. For the sake of sharing, I'd like to say, with that change of which you spoke, many paradigm shifts resulted, diverting away from the examples and commands within God's word concerning priorities in giving.
Acts 4 had this to say:
34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
Throughout this entire context of these verses, and at every other place in NT examples of giving, we see no other focus in believer's giving, other than to meet needs; even when it went across national borders into Israel, for example, for those believers suffering such great persecution. Even the OT tithe went strictly for the meeting of needs, never for the temple structure itself, or its upkeep.
That doesn't mean that it's at all wrong to support, secondarily, a communal building together, and hire a professional staff to run and maintain the place, along with orchestrating the communal service, so long as the people are in agreement to support such, but the primary focus of giving in the NT had only to do with meeting needs of those who were suffering hardship for whatever reason in their lives, and for supporting those who were doing the true work of the Lord.
Every institutional church organization I have ever been a member over a period of 30+ years (which doesn't mean that all church oragnizations are like this) were mostly introverted in the way they functioned. The list includes almost every major denomination in this country (excluding the more liberal, ungodly denominations), along with many independent, non-denominational groups. They all had a few token outreaches and missions support, but they mostly were preoccupied with "their own thing." Some even had off-duty police officers patrolling the halls to get rid of anyone who dared to come in and ask for financial assistance. The leadership of all these groups will be judged by the Lord, not by me, but they each gave me good reason to leave in search of something biblical by comparison.
In the scriptures, hirlings were not ever worthy of support, although church planters and evangelists were. I can't find an example of the local elders making their entire living off the people to whom they ministered. They appear to have been men who continued to be productive members of their respective communities in whatever trade of profession they held. The elders could certainly receive from the people for their ministarially incurred expenses, but it seems to be a strain when someone declares off-handedly that the elders were also "on the payroll," so to speak, as I've heard claimed many times. The lure of filthy lucre has its own inherent dangers, along with being a dead weight, therefore not very productive in the Kingdom work.
As for the fellowship within which I am involved, The elders do the teaching, and the ministry, hospital visitations, home visitations, evangelism, et al...we do it all ourselves rather to hire someone else to do it for us. (And no, we don't carry a name, such as Church of Christ, and parade ourselves as the only true church.)
It's just our preference to do all the work of ministry ourselves, which has empowered us to experience the vastness of being servants, one to another and to those in our respective communities, rather than shutting ourselves up inside walls of buildings and/or homes, living group-centered lives that characterizes the typical, worldly functionality of many groups with which I've come into contact. We also financially support missionaries on foreign and domestic soil, but only those who plant the seeds of Christ in lives rather than the westernized model of religious organizationalism. A little leaven leavens the whole loaf, as it's written.
Just wanted to share my own experiences with you.:friends:
Brother Mike
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Tithes something else to think about.
Just a few points. The Head of the church stated (Jesus)
Luke 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Well, if the Head of the Church says we ought to tithe then good enough for me. Sure he was talking to the religious rulers of the time but He is not a respecter of persons and does not change (Rom 2:11, Heb 13:8 so on.)
My question is, where did God change his thinking on the Tithe? The Tithe was never in question in the New Testament as he main writers Paul and Peter were both very familiar with Jewish Laws and the old Testament laws of God.
Mark 12:14 And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?
Mark 12:15 Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.
Mark 12:16 And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's.
Mark 12:17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marveled at him.
Jesus points out two things here. Something you have a worked for belongs to the government (Some percent) and something you have worked for belongs to God (Some percent). Remember this was over a coin and not some grain or other commodity. With all the biblical evidence pointing to a tenth of gross income, It would be wise to give the tenth.
Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
Here we see a familiar scripture. God is speaking so we ought to pay attention. God separates tithes and offerings. Has this passed away? Does this still apply today? The crazy thing in a lot of churches today is that we do lots of wasted study on what applied to who and when. (hermeneutics, dispensation of times ect..) God never changed, Jesus never changed, God's Word never changed. The Bible tells us this, and that ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
So, I guess a good question would be that if I was faithful in giving ten percent of my gross income, then would I see this.
Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
That is good enough for me. God gets a tenth of my income and I set it aside as soon as I get paid. This is before any bill or other things get attention. God's Kingdom first!! Jesus said seek the Kingdom of God first and all that other stuff will be added to you. It was the same problem in the book of Haggie. They were running around tending to there own wants and needs, not getting around to building the house of God. They even tithed and did give, but God was not first.
Hag 1:4 Is it time for you, O ye, to dwell in your ceiled houses, and this house lie waste?
Hag 1:5 Now therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts; Consider your ways.
Hag 1:6 Ye have sown much, and bring in little; ye eat, but ye have not enough; ye drink, but ye are not filled with drink; ye clothe you, but there is none warm; and he that earneth wages earneth wages to put it into a bag with holes.
Hag 1:9 Ye looked for much, and, lo, it came to little; and when ye brought it home, I did blow upon it. Why? saith the LORD of hosts. Because of mine house that is waste, and ye run every man unto his own house.
When I see people question the tithe, then I see someone that questions God's ability to take care of them. do you pay the power bill or give God the Tenth. I hear all the time from Christians that they can not afford to give a tenth to God. I say they can't afford not to. Lets look at one more.
Mar 12:41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
Mar 12:42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
Mar 12:43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
Mar 12:44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.
Now would have been a good time for Jesus to say. "Now, now woman, God does not want you to go without food or your bills unpaid. Just take your money and keep it. God knows you need it more than the treasury."
Well, talking to many Christian this is what they would have liked Jesus to say. This was not the Lord's attitude though. Notice his interest in what people were putting in? This Woman put God first and got herself eternally recorded in God's Word. What would happen if we are suppose to tithe a tenth of all income? What would happen if we did put God first?
As for our responsibility of taking care of the poor........ This is the worlds opinion!! People get upset when they see churches prosper. The attitude is that it's our responsibility to feed and clothe everyone. They see very little value of the gospel being preached (cost tons of money). They get upset if our pastor has a nice car or God forbid owns an airplane to preach around the world. They think it's a waste of good money when God prospers Christians. We were never told to feed all the poor. We are told to take care of the things of God however and it would take a good bible study to see what people God was talking about when it came to feeding and clothing others. James puts it a very good way.
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food.......
The key words are Brother and Sister. Those that refuse Jesus belong to the Devil. It's our job to share the Good news, not to make sure those that reject God are feed and clothed. It's the same in the old Testament. God does have ministerys set aside for this type of thing, but it's not the call of every church or believer. I have paid bills for Christians as the Spirit of God has asked me to or fed others (Many times). If The chruch gave money to every begger that comes along who has no interest in God, then soon no church would have money. We don't need to continue to empower people to serve the devil and we are not others source. God is or should be.
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (Not feed every creature)
It's important to remember that as we share what God has revealed to us, others may not have the same revelations. We can only grow and learn more. We are all at different stages of our Love walk and spiritual growth. If paul said we see through a glass darkly, where does that put us?
God Bless.
Jesus Is Lord!!
.
Just a few points. The Head of the church stated (Jesus)
Luke 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Well, if the Head of the Church says we ought to tithe then good enough for me. Sure he was talking to the religious rulers of the time but He is not a respecter of persons and does not change (Rom 2:11, Heb 13:8 so on.)
My question is, where did God change his thinking on the Tithe? The Tithe was never in question in the New Testament as he main writers Paul and Peter were both very familiar with Jewish Laws and the old Testament laws of God.
Mark 12:14 And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?
Mark 12:15 Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.
Mark 12:16 And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's.
Mark 12:17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marveled at him.
Jesus points out two things here. Something you have a worked for belongs to the government (Some percent) and something you have worked for belongs to God (Some percent). Remember this was over a coin and not some grain or other commodity. With all the biblical evidence pointing to a tenth of gross income, It would be wise to give the tenth.
Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
Here we see a familiar scripture. God is speaking so we ought to pay attention. God separates tithes and offerings. Has this passed away? Does this still apply today? The crazy thing in a lot of churches today is that we do lots of wasted study on what applied to who and when. (hermeneutics, dispensation of times ect..) God never changed, Jesus never changed, God's Word never changed. The Bible tells us this, and that ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
So, I guess a good question would be that if I was faithful in giving ten percent of my gross income, then would I see this.
Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
That is good enough for me. God gets a tenth of my income and I set it aside as soon as I get paid. This is before any bill or other things get attention. God's Kingdom first!! Jesus said seek the Kingdom of God first and all that other stuff will be added to you. It was the same problem in the book of Haggie. They were running around tending to there own wants and needs, not getting around to building the house of God. They even tithed and did give, but God was not first.
Hag 1:4 Is it time for you, O ye, to dwell in your ceiled houses, and this house lie waste?
Hag 1:5 Now therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts; Consider your ways.
Hag 1:6 Ye have sown much, and bring in little; ye eat, but ye have not enough; ye drink, but ye are not filled with drink; ye clothe you, but there is none warm; and he that earneth wages earneth wages to put it into a bag with holes.
Hag 1:9 Ye looked for much, and, lo, it came to little; and when ye brought it home, I did blow upon it. Why? saith the LORD of hosts. Because of mine house that is waste, and ye run every man unto his own house.
When I see people question the tithe, then I see someone that questions God's ability to take care of them. do you pay the power bill or give God the Tenth. I hear all the time from Christians that they can not afford to give a tenth to God. I say they can't afford not to. Lets look at one more.
Mar 12:41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
Mar 12:42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
Mar 12:43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
Mar 12:44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.
Now would have been a good time for Jesus to say. "Now, now woman, God does not want you to go without food or your bills unpaid. Just take your money and keep it. God knows you need it more than the treasury."
Well, talking to many Christian this is what they would have liked Jesus to say. This was not the Lord's attitude though. Notice his interest in what people were putting in? This Woman put God first and got herself eternally recorded in God's Word. What would happen if we are suppose to tithe a tenth of all income? What would happen if we did put God first?
As for our responsibility of taking care of the poor........ This is the worlds opinion!! People get upset when they see churches prosper. The attitude is that it's our responsibility to feed and clothe everyone. They see very little value of the gospel being preached (cost tons of money). They get upset if our pastor has a nice car or God forbid owns an airplane to preach around the world. They think it's a waste of good money when God prospers Christians. We were never told to feed all the poor. We are told to take care of the things of God however and it would take a good bible study to see what people God was talking about when it came to feeding and clothing others. James puts it a very good way.
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food.......
The key words are Brother and Sister. Those that refuse Jesus belong to the Devil. It's our job to share the Good news, not to make sure those that reject God are feed and clothed. It's the same in the old Testament. God does have ministerys set aside for this type of thing, but it's not the call of every church or believer. I have paid bills for Christians as the Spirit of God has asked me to or fed others (Many times). If The chruch gave money to every begger that comes along who has no interest in God, then soon no church would have money. We don't need to continue to empower people to serve the devil and we are not others source. God is or should be.
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (Not feed every creature)
It's important to remember that as we share what God has revealed to us, others may not have the same revelations. We can only grow and learn more. We are all at different stages of our Love walk and spiritual growth. If paul said we see through a glass darkly, where does that put us?
God Bless.
Jesus Is Lord!!
this is just my take on tithing. i am not against tithing. however i am against the false teachings of it in the churches today. many people teach it as a necessity to salvation. then they have these great testimonies of people that have tithed 200 dollars and gain 10000 or some garbage like that. bringing the gospel and coming to jesus for the things of this world rather than the fact that he was merciful enough to die on the cross for us. so that by faith in him we can be cleansed and hgealed of our wicked hearts.
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