Welcome!

By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.

SignUp Now!
  • Welcome to Talk Jesus Christian Forums

    Celebrating 20 Years!

    A bible based, Jesus Christ centered community.

    Register Log In

Resurrection of the... (body?)

B-A-C

Loyal
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
11,331
What happens to our physical bodies?

Gen 3:19; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust, And to dust you shall return.”

Job 10:9;‘Remember now, that You have made me as clay;
And would You turn me into dust again?

Job 34:15; All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust.

Psalm 90:3; You turn man back into dust And say, “Return, O children of men.”

Psalm 104:29; You hide Your face, they are dismayed;
You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust.

Eccl 3:20; All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.

Dan 12:1; ...And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a

nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the

book, will be rescued.
Dan 12:2; Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to

everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

1 Cor 15:42; So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is

raised an imperishable body;
1 Cor 15:43; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is

raised in power;
1 Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a

natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

It seems the natural body returns to dust...
The natural body is not raised up. We are given new bodies.

2 Cor 5:1; For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a

building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 Cor 5:2; For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from

heaven,
2 Cor 5:3; inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
2 Cor 5:4; For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do

not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by

life.

Our bodies are just the tent or clothing that clovers our soul/spirit.

So if the natural body returns to the dust, and we are given new bodies in heaven.
What is resurrected? ...and when does this resurrection happen?

Jesus said we will be raised up on the "last day". John 6:39-40;
He says this also in John 6:54;

Martha tells Jesus that she knows Lazarus will be raised back to life "on the last day".
John says both the good and the evil will be resurrected. ( John 5:29; )
Luke says the same thing in Acts 24"15;

It seems there are two resurrections.
Those who were beheaded during the tribulation take part in the first resurrection.
( Rev 20:5-6; ) These are the people that will reign with Christ during the millennial

reign.

So back to the question... if the body doesn't get resurrected... what does?
Is it simply our spirit? Does our spirit sleep in the ground?

In Matt 27:25; ity says the dead are "asleep".
In John 11 Jesus says Lazarus is asleep... then he tells the disciples. Lazarus is dead.

In Acts 13:36; it says David fell asleep and was laid with his fathers (and underwent

decay). (returned baxck to the dust)

In 1 Cor 15:6, 15:18; and 15:20; it talks about the saints who have fallen asleep.

In 1 Thess 4:13-15; it also talks about the saints who have died and fallen asleep.

In 2 Pet 3:4; it also talks about the patriarchs of the Jews who "fell asleep".

When Saul asks the witch of Endor to raise up Samuel... Samuel asks Saul
"Why have you disturbed me y bringing me up?" 1 Sam 28:15;

Do people immediately go to heaven? It seems they didn't... at least for a while.

In John 3:13; it says no one has ascended to heaven except for Jesus.
In Acts 2:34; it says not even david has ascended into heaven yet.

So what is the resurrection, if it's not the body?
 
What happens to our physical bodies?

Gen 3:19; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust, And to dust you shall return.”

Job 10:9;‘Remember now, that You have made me as clay;
And would You turn me into dust again?

Job 34:15; All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust.

Psalm 90:3; You turn man back into dust And say, “Return, O children of men.”

Psalm 104:29; You hide Your face, they are dismayed;
You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust.

Eccl 3:20; All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.

Dan 12:1; ...And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a

nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the

book, will be rescued.
Dan 12:2; Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to

everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

1 Cor 15:42; So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is

raised an imperishable body;
1 Cor 15:43; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is

raised in power;
1 Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a

natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

It seems the natural body returns to dust...
The natural body is not raised up. We are given new bodies.

2 Cor 5:1; For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a

building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 Cor 5:2; For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from

heaven,
2 Cor 5:3; inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
2 Cor 5:4; For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do

not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by

life.

Our bodies are just the tent or clothing that clovers our soul/spirit.

So if the natural body returns to the dust, and we are given new bodies in heaven.
What is resurrected? ...and when does this resurrection happen?

Jesus said we will be raised up on the "last day". John 6:39-40;
He says this also in John 6:54;

Martha tells Jesus that she knows Lazarus will be raised back to life "on the last day".
John says both the good and the evil will be resurrected. ( John 5:29; )
Luke says the same thing in Acts 24"15;

It seems there are two resurrections.
Those who were beheaded during the tribulation take part in the first resurrection.
( Rev 20:5-6; ) These are the people that will reign with Christ during the millennial

reign.

So back to the question... if the body doesn't get resurrected... what does?
Is it simply our spirit? Does our spirit sleep in the ground?

In Matt 27:25; ity says the dead are "asleep".
In John 11 Jesus says Lazarus is asleep... then he tells the disciples. Lazarus is dead.

In Acts 13:36; it says David fell asleep and was laid with his fathers (and underwent

decay). (returned baxck to the dust)

In 1 Cor 15:6, 15:18; and 15:20; it talks about the saints who have fallen asleep.

In 1 Thess 4:13-15; it also talks about the saints who have died and fallen asleep.

In 2 Pet 3:4; it also talks about the patriarchs of the Jews who "fell asleep".

When Saul asks the witch of Endor to raise up Samuel... Samuel asks Saul
"Why have you disturbed me y bringing me up?" 1 Sam 28:15;

Do people immediately go to heaven? It seems they didn't... at least for a while.

In John 3:13; it says no one has ascended to heaven except for Jesus.
In Acts 2:34; it says not even david has ascended into heaven yet.

So what is the resurrection, if it's not the body?
I find it interesting that all of these verses talk about your body...Now look for the ones that talk about your spirit. If you remove your spirit from your body, your body would drop like a sack of rocks dead. God took dust/ dirt and made a body..Then He breathed life into it. He breathed you into it if you will. When you are taken out of the body, that is what the death of the body is. Injury for example can render the body unlivable in. So your spirit moves out. The body dies.
 
I find it interesting that all of these verses talk about your body...Now look for the ones that talk about your spirit. If you remove your spirit from your body, your body would drop like a sack of rocks dead. God took dust/ dirt and made a body..Then He breathed life into it. He breathed you into it if you will. When you are taken out of the body, that is what the death of the body is. Injury for example can render the body unlivable in. So your spirit moves out. The body dies.




Job 32:8: “But there is a spirit in man, and the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding.” The breath is not the same as mans spirit but that which teaches him, being the Holy Spirit from God.

Isaiah 26:9 says this: “ At night my soul longs for Thee, indeed my spirit within me seeks Thee diligently.”

Zech.12:1: “Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:” Here we see that the physical man is different than the Spirit in him.

1 Cor. 6:20: “For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.” Paul distinguishes the body from the Spirit, both existing simultaneously, yet both are united to make man.

1 Cor. 2:11: “For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.” Mans spirit is not the same as Gods Spirit. Our spirit has certain capabilities to understand the things of man but fall short in understanding God unless he reveals them to us. The knowledge is not in our flesh but our spirit, certainly this cannot mean our breath for it knows nothing. There is a comparison here between mans spirit knowing the things of man and Gods spirit knowing the things of God.

Job.14:22: “But his flesh upon him shall have pain, and his soul within him shall mourn.” Job makes the distinction saying the flesh is upon him and the soul is within him.

Now lets address the argument that some claim the soul or spirit is just another word for breath since this is what the Hebrew word Ruach means. That when someone dies their breath leaves them. Lets substitute the word breath where Spirit is and see if it makes any sense scripturally?

Job 34:14-15: “If He should set His heart on it, if He should gather to Himself Spirit (His breath?) and His breath, All flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust.” Here both breath and spirit are distinguished otherwise one would be gathering to himself spirit and his spirit or breath and his breath.

Ps. 19:7: “The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the Breath, the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;” The conversion is to ones soul, their inner being so it can rule over their body.

2 Cor. 7:1: “Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and Breath (spirit),” Does this mean we take breath mints?

Gal 6:8: “For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the breath ( Spirit ) will of the breath (Spirit)reap everlasting life.”

Acts 23:8: “For Sadducees say that there is no resurrection-- and no angel or breath (spirit); but the Pharisees confess both.” Is there no breath or were they speaking about a spirit that is intelligent (a type of angel). What we will see is that Spirits do exist outside the vehicle of the body as does mans. V.9”Then there arose a loud outcry. And the scribes of the Pharisees' party arose and protested, saying, “We find no evil in this man; but if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him, let us not fight against God.” Certainly they are speaking about a corporeal entity that communicates not just breath.

What of Jesus, did he use this definition? Matt. 12:43 “When an unclean Breath, (spirit) “goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none.” Certainly he did not mean bad breath. Just as man can have the Holy Spirit live within him alongside his human Spirit so he can have a unclean spirit live in him.

Luke 4:36: “What a word this is! For with authority and power He commands the unclean Breaths, (spirit) and they come out.”

Acts 5:16: “Bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean Breath,” (spirit), and they were all healed.” I guess some peoples souls need breath freshener! Jesus cast out spirit entities not peoples breath, and if he did they would certainly die on the spot.

Luke 12:19: “And I will say to my Breath, “ Breath,”(spirit), you have many goods laid up for many years; take your ease; eat, drink, and be merry.” Can ones breath eat and drink.

James 5:20 “ let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a Breath, (soul) from death and cover a multitude of sins.” Can breath be saved or a person.

2 Pet. 2:8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous Breath, (spirit) from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)--

Ezek. 18:4: “Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine; the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” Can breathe die? Obviously this means something than just air in the lungs.

1 Sam 30:6 “ because the soul of all the people was grieved.” Num. 21:4 “ and the soul of the people became very discouraged on the way.” Prov. 21:10 “The soul of the wicked desires evil” Can breath do any of these things, or does it communicate emotion, intelligence and personality? Gen. 34:8 But Hamor spoke with them, saying, “The soul of my son Shechem longs for your daughter. Please give her to him as a wife.” Is Shechem's breath desiring a wife?

Pnuema means wind in Greek it also means breath and spirit. Ruach in Hebrew means wind, it too also can mean breath and spirit. Since Hebrew and Greek have only one word for wind breath and spirit one needs to discern what is meant by certain passages, the context defines the meaning. Jesus breathed on his disciples in John 20 saying receive the Spirit, the rushing wind in Acts is certainly to be interpreted as the Spirit. When Jesus breathed on the apostles the Holy Spirit in Jn.20:22 he wasn't giving them Breath for life but the Holy Spirit in some capacity.

If Spirit is breath and God is Spirit is He breath to? We can see how ludicrous this position of interpretation is. Certainly when Jesus spoke to the Father into your hands I commend my Spirit he was not speaking of his breath.

I think the point is clear, Spirit does not mean breath although at times it is used metaphorically.

There is a difference between man's breath and spirit

Isaiah 42:5: “Thus says the Lord, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and its offspring, who gives breath to the people on it, and spirit to those who walk in it.” Two things are given the breath and the spirit if they were one thing it would not be written like this.

1 Cor. 2:11-12: “ For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? “ Could we ever substitute breath for Spirit? Mans center of knowledge is not in their physical human nature, neither in the brain which is just a vehicle. It is our spirit that has a will and recalls. When one dies it is because the spirit leaves this is why one cannot hear nor see our spiritual nature has left.” Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.” Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.” Could we substitute breath and have the scripture read “No one knows the things of God but the breath of God?” “Now we have received, not the breath of the world, but the breath who is from God! Does God need breath to live? The Bible tells us God is Spirit (breath?) and that he has all knowledge, perfect knowledge of the past present and future.

James. 2:26: “the body without the Spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” Meaning only the body dies, as James uses the example that faith animates our works so the Spirit animates the body. The relationship between the material and immaterial when broken means we die physically. Our spirit is not dead like the body. The Spirit is just as alive outside the body as it is inside the body. The resurrection only applies to the body. When our spirit returns, our bodies come alive again. The correlation made is that real faith (which is invisible) is displayed to others by having works to show it is alive .

Abraham died and was gathered to his people. Gen.25:8 Jacob said the same thing Gen.49:29 Rachel dying said her soul was departing and she died in Gen.35:18.

The description of what occurs at death is described in both the Old Testament and the New Testament as giving up the ghost, Abraham Gen.25:8. Isaac gave up the ghost Gen.35:29.

Jacob breathed his last Gen.49:33. Even Jesus Lk.23:46, and Sapphira in Acts 5:10. This is a common phrase to signify one is dying not that their soul goes to sleep.

In I Kings 17:20-22: “When the widows son died Elijah cried out three times to the LORD and said, “O LORD my God, I pray, let this child's soul come back to him.” Then the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came back to him, and he revived. Notice that it came in him. This is not just breath as one can make air go back into someone who just died and they would not revive, this says the soul of the child, it is something he possessed that had left him.

Luke 8:54-55: “he, however, took her by the hand and called, saying, 'Child arise!' And her spirit returned , and she rose immediately; and He gave orders for something to be given her to eat.” This shows without the spirit to animate the body we are dead. This does not mean the spirit is dead or sleeping. In all these instances we find the spirit entering the body again but never reviving or resurrecting because it already is alive. It is the body that is asleep and needs animation.

The Bible speaks of two different kinds of death…

1 Tim 5:6: “But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives.” This does not mean one is a walking corpse in the physical body but they are dead in their spirit from sin and trespasses. This is remedied by a new birth, Jn.3 being born again by the Spirit.

The term “death” which is “thanatas” in Greek, does not mean to be non-existence or unconscious, it rather means to be separated. Some examples:

Colossians 2:13: “And when you were dead (separated form God--NOT “unconscious”) in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh...”

Ephesians 2:1: “And he made you alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins.” this is addressing the spiritual state of someone who was in sin and then made alive spiritually in Christ. (also Revelation 3:1)The unregenerate are dead but they are not unconscious or non existent.

The prodigal son in Lk.15:24 is said by the Father “This my son was dead and is alive again.” Jesus was not talking about a bodily or soul resurrection but of one who left fellowship with the father.

Jesus in Matt. 26:38 Then He said to them, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. He was not saying his soul was going to die and go to sleep.

What of Jesus in Lk.23:46 said to the Father into your hands “I commit my spirit,” isn’t this clear he is having his spirit received into the Fathers hands while his body is to be laid in the tomb. This is the very same thing Stephen states in Acts 7:59 Stephen cried unto the Lord saying “receive my spirit.”

Revelation 6:9-11: “And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, should be completed also.” Notice the timing is at the fifth seal, God gave them white robes and they are told to wait for their brethren who will be killed. This consummates in Rev.7:9-15 where they are gathered before the throne of God serving him day and night in his temple (v.15). This would be hard to do if one is asleep or out of existence.

The Bible teaches death is not a cessation of existence, but a separation of existence. The soul is our intellect, our personality, our identity. The real person will live on.

All the Old Testament passages need to be interpreted through the New Testament revelation. Without the New Testament teaching what was unrevealed in the Old Testament would stay a mystery as Paul states in 1 Cor.15:51: “behold I tell you a mystery, we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.” Speaking of the resurrection of the body. Matthew 13:11, 35; Rom.16:25; I Corinthians 2:7; Ephesians 3:4-5 and 3:9 – these Scriptures give us a definition of a mystery as something that was unrevealed in the Old Testament and now revealed for the first time in the New Testament. Heaven was not explained in the Old Testament , the immortality of man, the resurrection to eternal life, the forgiveness of sins as permanent. There is the New Testament mystery of the revelation of God in Christ, 1 Tim. 3:16 “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh,” None of these were explained until we had New Testament revelation. Likewise so is the revealing of what actually transpires after death through the teaching of Christ and the apostles.

Ps.6:5: “In death there is no remembrance of you.” Ps.146 :4: “the thoughts perish at death, the preceding words put this in context. “His spirit departs he returns to earth in that day his thoughts (plans) perish at death.” Eccl.8:8 “there is no man that has power over the Spirit to retain the spirit; in the day of death.” This describes the spirit departing from the body, that no one can hold it back not man nor the ground.

Ps.115:17: “The dead praise not the Lord neither any that go down into silence.” But it then says “But we will bless the Lord from this time forth and FOR EVERMORE.” Wouldn't this by necessity mean to be alive and conscious.

Eccl.3:19: “For what happens to the sons of men also happen to the animals, one thing befalls them, as one dies so dies the other, surely they all have one breath, man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity.” Solomon is not describing the afterlife but that we all die, man is not eternal in the body. When we stop breathing we die like any other creature.

Eccl.9:5,10: “in Sheol there is no work or device or wisdom.” These passages that seem to imply a dead soul are really describing the normal functions of the body while one lived on earth are not the same afterwards. When one dies these are no longer possible, it ceases. Memory of them is forgotten” is not referring to those who die but those still living will no longer think of them. Ecclesiastes should be kept in its context. Solomon was engulfed in human philosophy and he was backslidden, although there are times rays of truth break through. It was written from a human perspective and the theme of the book is said over and over when a person dies he has no more portion under the sun as in vs. 10 of Eccl.9 (used 29 times). This is an idiom of in this world, where ones functions on earth are no longer possible. These were put in the Bible for an example of how far one can go away from the truth they once knew so well. Just as Satan's lie was recorded to Eve in saying “you will not surely die” so are the words of Solomon in his backslidden state that are not a revelation concerning truth.

Gen.3:19 gives us the report of mans design. “Dust thou art and unto the dust shalt thou return.” It was mans physical nature that was made from the dust not his spiritual nature. God breathed into man the spirit, the spirit was not taken from the ground. It came from God.

Likewise Solomon writes a similar narration. Eccl.12: 6-7 describes in poetry the shattering of life, that the dust returns to earth, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Yet, earlier, in verse 5, he writes a man goes to his eternal home and mourners go about the streets. So Solomon is speaking about those who turn to God as he started off this chapter, stating remember your Creator in the days of your youth, before difficult days come. And then he speaks about our eternal home. If it is sleep in the grave, as people are claiming, then that means we are going to stay in the grave, the ground, forever, if our soul actually sleeps.

One will never read of a soul being resurrected from a physical death. Rather, bodies are resurrected from physical death (Matthew 27:52).Why? Because a soul does not literally die.

Many of these are languages of appearances related to the body only. (usually from mans view point. Showing the inability to function as we once did with the body.

Soul-sleep' which pertains to the deceased, is defined as silence, inactivity and an entire unconsciousness. That once death occurs it affects the spirit of man just as it does the body. This would mean the spirit is only alive when it has a body. We know this is not true and is contrary to the Bible. In Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus he was was not giving disinformation or representing them falsely. The rich man was very much aware of his misfortune as he suffered in Hades he had his thoughts (that temporary abode of the departed spirits of the wicked). While Lazarus enjoyed the blessedness of Paradise (Luke 16:19-31) It is obvious that the rich man is conscious, as Lazarus is conscious, and Abraham is conscious, though they are all dead. All the stories Jesus told always illustrated truth not something false. These two have recently died and one has been long dead. Indeed, their physical bodies are asleep but not their souls. Obviously, the Hadean realm, where all departed spirits remain until the final judgment, is experienced by those dwelling there. (Now excluding Abraham's bosom: Paradise).

In Jn.11:11-14 Jesus says of Lazarus that he sleeps referring to his body. Jesus then says “I will wake him out of his sleep.” He then raised his body from the dead.

In Mt.27:52 the Scripture tells us that at the time of of the resurrection “many bodies of the saints which slept arose.” The specific mention of bodies makes the meaning clear of what actually slept. It was not the saints themselves that slept but their bodies.

The term “sleep” when it is used of death is in reference to the body. Whenever the Bible speaks of death in the sense of sleep it is always used of the physical body and not the soul, because the appearance of a sleeping body and a dead body look very much the same. The term “sleep” is never applied to the soul or the spirit , but only the body. The soul and the spirit continue to exist after death. whenever the Bible uses the term “sleep” in reference to death of the body.
 
Job 32:8: “But there is a spirit in man, and the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding.” The breath is not the same as mans spirit but that which teaches him, being the Holy Spirit from God.

Isaiah 26:9 says this: “ At night my soul longs for Thee, indeed my spirit within me seeks Thee diligently.”

Zech.12:1: “Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:” Here we see that the physical man is different than the Spirit in him.

1 Cor. 6:20: “For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.” Paul distinguishes the body from the Spirit, both existing simultaneously, yet both are united to make man.

1 Cor. 2:11: “For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.” Mans spirit is not the same as Gods Spirit. Our spirit has certain capabilities to understand the things of man but fall short in understanding God unless he reveals them to us. The knowledge is not in our flesh but our spirit, certainly this cannot mean our breath for it knows nothing. There is a comparison here between mans spirit knowing the things of man and Gods spirit knowing the things of God.

Job.14:22: “But his flesh upon him shall have pain, and his soul within him shall mourn.” Job makes the distinction saying the flesh is upon him and the soul is within him.

Now lets address the argument that some claim the soul or spirit is just another word for breath since this is what the Hebrew word Ruach means. That when someone dies their breath leaves them. Lets substitute the word breath where Spirit is and see if it makes any sense scripturally?

Job 34:14-15: “If He should set His heart on it, if He should gather to Himself Spirit (His breath?) and His breath, All flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust.” Here both breath and spirit are distinguished otherwise one would be gathering to himself spirit and his spirit or breath and his breath.

Ps. 19:7: “The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the Breath, the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;” The conversion is to ones soul, their inner being so it can rule over their body.

2 Cor. 7:1: “Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and Breath (spirit),” Does this mean we take breath mints?

Gal 6:8: “For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the breath ( Spirit ) will of the breath (Spirit)reap everlasting life.”

Acts 23:8: “For Sadducees say that there is no resurrection-- and no angel or breath (spirit); but the Pharisees confess both.” Is there no breath or were they speaking about a spirit that is intelligent (a type of angel). What we will see is that Spirits do exist outside the vehicle of the body as does mans. V.9”Then there arose a loud outcry. And the scribes of the Pharisees' party arose and protested, saying, “We find no evil in this man; but if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him, let us not fight against God.” Certainly they are speaking about a corporeal entity that communicates not just breath.

What of Jesus, did he use this definition? Matt. 12:43 “When an unclean Breath, (spirit) “goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none.” Certainly he did not mean bad breath. Just as man can have the Holy Spirit live within him alongside his human Spirit so he can have a unclean spirit live in him.

Luke 4:36: “What a word this is! For with authority and power He commands the unclean Breaths, (spirit) and they come out.”

Acts 5:16: “Bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean Breath,” (spirit), and they were all healed.” I guess some peoples souls need breath freshener! Jesus cast out spirit entities not peoples breath, and if he did they would certainly die on the spot.

Luke 12:19: “And I will say to my Breath, “ Breath,”(spirit), you have many goods laid up for many years; take your ease; eat, drink, and be merry.” Can ones breath eat and drink.

James 5:20 “ let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a Breath, (soul) from death and cover a multitude of sins.” Can breath be saved or a person.

2 Pet. 2:8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous Breath, (spirit) from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)--

Ezek. 18:4: “Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine; the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” Can breathe die? Obviously this means something than just air in the lungs.

1 Sam 30:6 “ because the soul of all the people was grieved.” Num. 21:4 “ and the soul of the people became very discouraged on the way.” Prov. 21:10 “The soul of the wicked desires evil” Can breath do any of these things, or does it communicate emotion, intelligence and personality? Gen. 34:8 But Hamor spoke with them, saying, “The soul of my son Shechem longs for your daughter. Please give her to him as a wife.” Is Shechem's breath desiring a wife?

Pnuema means wind in Greek it also means breath and spirit. Ruach in Hebrew means wind, it too also can mean breath and spirit. Since Hebrew and Greek have only one word for wind breath and spirit one needs to discern what is meant by certain passages, the context defines the meaning. Jesus breathed on his disciples in John 20 saying receive the Spirit, the rushing wind in Acts is certainly to be interpreted as the Spirit. When Jesus breathed on the apostles the Holy Spirit in Jn.20:22 he wasn't giving them Breath for life but the Holy Spirit in some capacity.

If Spirit is breath and God is Spirit is He breath to? We can see how ludicrous this position of interpretation is. Certainly when Jesus spoke to the Father into your hands I commend my Spirit he was not speaking of his breath.

I think the point is clear, Spirit does not mean breath although at times it is used metaphorically.

There is a difference between man's breath and spirit

Isaiah 42:5: “Thus says the Lord, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and its offspring, who gives breath to the people on it, and spirit to those who walk in it.” Two things are given the breath and the spirit if they were one thing it would not be written like this.

1 Cor. 2:11-12: “ For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? “ Could we ever substitute breath for Spirit? Mans center of knowledge is not in their physical human nature, neither in the brain which is just a vehicle. It is our spirit that has a will and recalls. When one dies it is because the spirit leaves this is why one cannot hear nor see our spiritual nature has left.” Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.” Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.” Could we substitute breath and have the scripture read “No one knows the things of God but the breath of God?” “Now we have received, not the breath of the world, but the breath who is from God! Does God need breath to live? The Bible tells us God is Spirit (breath?) and that he has all knowledge, perfect knowledge of the past present and future.

James. 2:26: “the body without the Spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” Meaning only the body dies, as James uses the example that faith animates our works so the Spirit animates the body. The relationship between the material and immaterial when broken means we die physically. Our spirit is not dead like the body. The Spirit is just as alive outside the body as it is inside the body. The resurrection only applies to the body. When our spirit returns, our bodies come alive again. The correlation made is that real faith (which is invisible) is displayed to others by having works to show it is alive .

Abraham died and was gathered to his people. Gen.25:8 Jacob said the same thing Gen.49:29 Rachel dying said her soul was departing and she died in Gen.35:18.

The description of what occurs at death is described in both the Old Testament and the New Testament as giving up the ghost, Abraham Gen.25:8. Isaac gave up the ghost Gen.35:29.

Jacob breathed his last Gen.49:33. Even Jesus Lk.23:46, and Sapphira in Acts 5:10. This is a common phrase to signify one is dying not that their soul goes to sleep.

In I Kings 17:20-22: “When the widows son died Elijah cried out three times to the LORD and said, “O LORD my God, I pray, let this child's soul come back to him.” Then the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came back to him, and he revived. Notice that it came in him. This is not just breath as one can make air go back into someone who just died and they would not revive, this says the soul of the child, it is something he possessed that had left him.

Luke 8:54-55: “he, however, took her by the hand and called, saying, 'Child arise!' And her spirit returned , and she rose immediately; and He gave orders for something to be given her to eat.” This shows without the spirit to animate the body we are dead. This does not mean the spirit is dead or sleeping. In all these instances we find the spirit entering the body again but never reviving or resurrecting because it already is alive. It is the body that is asleep and needs animation.

The Bible speaks of two different kinds of death…

1 Tim 5:6: “But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives.” This does not mean one is a walking corpse in the physical body but they are dead in their spirit from sin and trespasses. This is remedied by a new birth, Jn.3 being born again by the Spirit.

The term “death” which is “thanatas” in Greek, does not mean to be non-existence or unconscious, it rather means to be separated. Some examples:

Colossians 2:13: “And when you were dead (separated form God--NOT “unconscious”) in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh...”

Ephesians 2:1: “And he made you alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins.” this is addressing the spiritual state of someone who was in sin and then made alive spiritually in Christ. (also Revelation 3:1)The unregenerate are dead but they are not unconscious or non existent.

The prodigal son in Lk.15:24 is said by the Father “This my son was dead and is alive again.” Jesus was not talking about a bodily or soul resurrection but of one who left fellowship with the father.

Jesus in Matt. 26:38 Then He said to them, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. He was not saying his soul was going to die and go to sleep.

What of Jesus in Lk.23:46 said to the Father into your hands “I commit my spirit,” isn’t this clear he is having his spirit received into the Fathers hands while his body is to be laid in the tomb. This is the very same thing Stephen states in Acts 7:59 Stephen cried unto the Lord saying “receive my spirit.”

Revelation 6:9-11: “And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, should be completed also.” Notice the timing is at the fifth seal, God gave them white robes and they are told to wait for their brethren who will be killed. This consummates in Rev.7:9-15 where they are gathered before the throne of God serving him day and night in his temple (v.15). This would be hard to do if one is asleep or out of existence.

The Bible teaches death is not a cessation of existence, but a separation of existence. The soul is our intellect, our personality, our identity. The real person will live on.

All the Old Testament passages need to be interpreted through the New Testament revelation. Without the New Testament teaching what was unrevealed in the Old Testament would stay a mystery as Paul states in 1 Cor.15:51: “behold I tell you a mystery, we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.” Speaking of the resurrection of the body. Matthew 13:11, 35; Rom.16:25; I Corinthians 2:7; Ephesians 3:4-5 and 3:9 – these Scriptures give us a definition of a mystery as something that was unrevealed in the Old Testament and now revealed for the first time in the New Testament. Heaven was not explained in the Old Testament , the immortality of man, the resurrection to eternal life, the forgiveness of sins as permanent. There is the New Testament mystery of the revelation of God in Christ, 1 Tim. 3:16 “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh,” None of these were explained until we had New Testament revelation. Likewise so is the revealing of what actually transpires after death through the teaching of Christ and the apostles.

Ps.6:5: “In death there is no remembrance of you.” Ps.146 :4: “the thoughts perish at death, the preceding words put this in context. “His spirit departs he returns to earth in that day his thoughts (plans) perish at death.” Eccl.8:8 “there is no man that has power over the Spirit to retain the spirit; in the day of death.” This describes the spirit departing from the body, that no one can hold it back not man nor the ground.

Ps.115:17: “The dead praise not the Lord neither any that go down into silence.” But it then says “But we will bless the Lord from this time forth and FOR EVERMORE.” Wouldn't this by necessity mean to be alive and conscious.

Eccl.3:19: “For what happens to the sons of men also happen to the animals, one thing befalls them, as one dies so dies the other, surely they all have one breath, man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity.” Solomon is not describing the afterlife but that we all die, man is not eternal in the body. When we stop breathing we die like any other creature.

Eccl.9:5,10: “in Sheol there is no work or device or wisdom.” These passages that seem to imply a dead soul are really describing the normal functions of the body while one lived on earth are not the same afterwards. When one dies these are no longer possible, it ceases. Memory of them is forgotten” is not referring to those who die but those still living will no longer think of them. Ecclesiastes should be kept in its context. Solomon was engulfed in human philosophy and he was backslidden, although there are times rays of truth break through. It was written from a human perspective and the theme of the book is said over and over when a person dies he has no more portion under the sun as in vs. 10 of Eccl.9 (used 29 times). This is an idiom of in this world, where ones functions on earth are no longer possible. These were put in the Bible for an example of how far one can go away from the truth they once knew so well. Just as Satan's lie was recorded to Eve in saying “you will not surely die” so are the words of Solomon in his backslidden state that are not a revelation concerning truth.

Gen.3:19 gives us the report of mans design. “Dust thou art and unto the dust shalt thou return.” It was mans physical nature that was made from the dust not his spiritual nature. God breathed into man the spirit, the spirit was not taken from the ground. It came from God.

Likewise Solomon writes a similar narration. Eccl.12: 6-7 describes in poetry the shattering of life, that the dust returns to earth, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Yet, earlier, in verse 5, he writes a man goes to his eternal home and mourners go about the streets. So Solomon is speaking about those who turn to God as he started off this chapter, stating remember your Creator in the days of your youth, before difficult days come. And then he speaks about our eternal home. If it is sleep in the grave, as people are claiming, then that means we are going to stay in the grave, the ground, forever, if our soul actually sleeps.

One will never read of a soul being resurrected from a physical death. Rather, bodies are resurrected from physical death (Matthew 27:52).Why? Because a soul does not literally die.

Many of these are languages of appearances related to the body only. (usually from mans view point. Showing the inability to function as we once did with the body.

Soul-sleep' which pertains to the deceased, is defined as silence, inactivity and an entire unconsciousness. That once death occurs it affects the spirit of man just as it does the body. This would mean the spirit is only alive when it has a body. We know this is not true and is contrary to the Bible. In Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus he was was not giving disinformation or representing them falsely. The rich man was very much aware of his misfortune as he suffered in Hades he had his thoughts (that temporary abode of the departed spirits of the wicked). While Lazarus enjoyed the blessedness of Paradise (Luke 16:19-31) It is obvious that the rich man is conscious, as Lazarus is conscious, and Abraham is conscious, though they are all dead. All the stories Jesus told always illustrated truth not something false. These two have recently died and one has been long dead. Indeed, their physical bodies are asleep but not their souls. Obviously, the Hadean realm, where all departed spirits remain until the final judgment, is experienced by those dwelling there. (Now excluding Abraham's bosom: Paradise).

In Jn.11:11-14 Jesus says of Lazarus that he sleeps referring to his body. Jesus then says “I will wake him out of his sleep.” He then raised his body from the dead.

In Mt.27:52 the Scripture tells us that at the time of of the resurrection “many bodies of the saints which slept arose.” The specific mention of bodies makes the meaning clear of what actually slept. It was not the saints themselves that slept but their bodies.

The term “sleep” when it is used of death is in reference to the body. Whenever the Bible speaks of death in the sense of sleep it is always used of the physical body and not the soul, because the appearance of a sleeping body and a dead body look very much the same. The term “sleep” is never applied to the soul or the spirit , but only the body. The soul and the spirit continue to exist after death. whenever the Bible uses the term “sleep” in reference to death of the body.


. It is never used of the unbelievers in the New Testament. It is a term used only of believers which shows God's viewpoint of the death of a believer. From God's perspective the death of a believer is a temporary suspension of physical activity. For example, in physical sleep there is a temporary suspension of physical activity until one wakes up, but there is no suspension of the activity of the mind, the soul or spirit, and the sub-consciousness keeps operating (as in Lk.16:19-36 death is not a cessation of existence for either the rich man or Lazarus.)

Jesus' own word's teach that there is an existence of rest and reward for the faithful and certain types of punishment and torment for those who are evil. In Lk.16 the story of the rich man and Lazarus, which is not a parable. The Lord would begin by saying he spoke to them in a parable, he did not use proper names as he did in this story (There was a certain man named Lazarus). However even if we were to grant this to be a parable, do we find any parable that did not tell the truth about the subject matter using illustrations for a real event? When the rich man died and was buried he spoke of being tormented in flame. It describes some type of heat that did not destroy him but made it extremely uncomfortable as he is existing in some type of form. He had his intelligence emotions and he could see, hear and speak as he asked for his family to be warned. He was still alive as he spoke, thirsted and remembered his family asking Abraham to send Lazarus to warn them so they would not end up in this PLACE of torment. (This word torment is used 5 times in the thirteen versus certainly making the point of how real it is).

So how can a spirit be able to do the same things he does in the body? Angels (both good and bad) are spirits and they certainly can see, hear, speak. The Bible does not give us much information about man after he dies. What we do know is that communication even among those in heaven requires much like we have here on earth, so any argument refusing this capability is going against what Christ said as a reality.

Mt. 10:28: “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” (Also Lk.12:4-5) After he has killed the body but not the soul? How is this possible if they are the same? If the soul and the body refer to the same thing then wouldn’t the soul die when the body does? God distinguishes the dual natures in man. Man's body is clearly not the same as his soul. Jesus himself taught in Mt. 10:28 there is a difference between the body of man and his soul by using the word both. When a person dies physically his soul lives. Jesus is distinguishing the material and non material and says although the body can be killed the soul cannot. “But are NOT ABLE to kill the soul.” Neither is the soul the body or the body the soul, they are different components of the same person. So if the body is killed the soul is not dead, it continues in its life. So then what does he mean by “fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body.” The Greek word here is Apollumi it does not mean to bring to utter destruction or ceasing to exist. This same Greek word is used of those living in Mt.10:6 (lost), Mt.15:24 the lost); Lk.19:10 (that which is lost). So this means to be in a lost condition, in context those in Hell that are in a eternally lost state, separated from God for all eternity. This also refutes any teaching of annihilationism, that we don’t exist after we die. Jesus says we do.

Moses' appearance at the Mount of transfiguration proved one exists after they die. Mt. 17:1-8 and Luke 9:28-36 are just a few of the passages on the transfiguration where we find Moses and Elijah appearing on the Mount with Jesus. Moses who died and was buried has his spirit speaking to Christ along with Elijah who never died. Elijah was taken to heaven alive while Moses died a physical death, yet, Moses is consciously alive just like Elijah. Moses couldn't have been resurrected, because Christ is to be the firstfruits of the resurrection and he had not risen yet. He had to die first. So this proves that Moses' spirit continued to exist after he died.

In response to those that teach the soul sleeping doctrine, the existence of angels shows that spirits can and do live and function apart from bodies. One of the reasons that people come to the conclusion that soul sleep is true is because they believe that disembodied spirits cannot function without a body. The existence of angels shows that spirit beings can and do live and exist apart from physical bodies (Hebrews 1:14). Man is both Body and Spirit.

God is Spirit we are told man was created in his image and likeness. Jesus said we would worship the Father in Spirit and truth. We need a spiritual nature to do this, only man was created like this and has this ability. When Adam was warned of the day he ate of the tree he certainly would die. He didn’t die physically but spiritually. He still existed but it meant a break, a separation in his relationship. If we read such passages as the Ezek. 18:4: “Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine; the soul that sinneth, it shall die (which is to sleep according to those who hold to the soul sleep doctrine). This means that it is spiritual death a separation- not non existence, otherwise they would cease to exist as soon as they sin. There are many scriptures that say the soul is dead even when someone is alive.” Rom. 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.” Are we really dragging a dead body around? Can we actually believe that if someone sinned their soul went to sleep or out of existence when they were alive? Were they walking around with a dead soul and an alive body. How did the soul revive?

The body “sleeps” and goes back to dust. The term "sleeping" is a New Testament term used only of believers, showing a rest, a temporary cessation of physical activity. We see this when Jesus said of the girl who was dead “Make room, for the girl is not dead, but sleeping “And they were laughing at Him.” (Matthew 9:24).

The following verses refer to the state of the body in death as sleep: .” 1 Thessalonians 4:14 God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. V.16 And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Rom. 8:23 It is the body we wait to be resurrected not our spirit or soul. Just as in 1 Cor.15 :3 15-20 speaks of Christ as the first fruits that slept, Referring to his body vs.35-38 speaks of how the dead are raised up. What you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain…but God gives it a body as he pleases and to each seed its own body. Paul goes on to explain in vs.42-54 that the natural will be transformed to a spiritual type of body (for more on this > flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven)

A promised was made to the converted dying thief by Jesus when he was on the cross (Lk. 23:42). “Verily I say unto you, today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.” Some claim this is not correct in its punctuation and the comma should be before the today as if Jesus is meant “today I'm saying this to you.” But there are no commas found in the Greek writing to give weight to this. Besides Jesus is answering the thief who was asking to remember him when he comes into his kingdom. This would mean Jesus went into soul sleep as well. Did Jesus lie when he said to the thief today you will be WITH ME in paradise? For if either Jesus or the thief went out of existence then his statement was not true. Then the question is who was resurrected?

Then those who hold to the deity of Christ and soul sleep at the same time have to really stretch the Scriptures. For it was Jesus who said in Jn.2:19 He would raise up his own body, an impossible task to do if you no longer existing after death. For the Scripture states after he died he went and proclaimed his victory to the spirits in prison who were there since the time of the flood (1Pt.3:19-20).

Jesus meant that very day he and the thief would be united together in paradise otherwise there is no significance to the statement if it is left to some unknown future time.

Abraham's bosom (Paradise) is no longer located in the earth as it was in the Old Testament prior to Christs ascension. We find Paul was caught up to paradise (2 Cor.12:4) the third heaven. In Scripture there are three heavens described, as in Gen.1:1 God made the heavens and the Earth. God is called the possessor of the heavens (plural) and the earth. 1) Acts 14:17 “God gave you rain from heaven.” This is our immediate atmosphere surrounding earth (Gen.1:20; Mt.5:20). 2) There is the celestial heaven, the place of the sun the moon and stars (Gen.1:14) and the place where principalities and powers are (Eph.6:12, Eph.2:2 possibly some overlapping in this with the first heaven.) 3) is called the heaven of heavens where Gods throne is and where He dwells (Heb.8:1). Jesus prayed to the Father in heaven (Mt.6:9). This is the place Paul called Paradise and where John was taken to (Rev.4:1). Lk.24:51; Acts 1:9-11, Heb.7:55-60 show us Christ is in heaven, Paradise and the righteous dead are all associated with this place as well. It is the current place where believers go directly into his presence at death (Eph. 4:8-10; 2 Cor. 5:8).

We find in Eph.4 Jesus descended first into “the lower parts of the earth he then ascended on high” bringing a multitude with him (upward to be with him). So since Christ ascended all go upward to be with HIM.

This is the Scripture that is consistently neglected by those who promote soul-sleep. As in Phil.1:23 Paul states to be with Christ is far better and to die is gain. But I live in the flesh… For I am hard pressed between the two having a desire to depart and be with Christ which is far better nevertheless, to be in the flesh is more needful for you.” What does Paul mean by I live in the flesh if he is not referring to the body... To die is gain. This would hardly be so, it would be a loss if one ceases to be alive. How could this be far better, is non existence better than existence? How could this be better if one does not continue to live after. And notice he says he departs to be with Christ. This would be impossible if we go to sleep in the ground with the body, unless Jesus is in the ground too. When a believer dies their spirit goes to be with the Lord in heaven.” In Phil. 1:23-24, Paul states that he desired to depart to be with Christ, which is far better. Christ is in heaven, He's not in the ground, so if this was soul-sleep, he being with Christ, Christ would have to be in the ground.

2 Cor. 5:1-8 V.5 Paul writes when our earthly house is destroyed (our body) we have another building that is eternal in heaven built of God.V.4 while we are in this tent we groan looking to be further clothed. Examining this carefully we find Paul believed our Spirit /soul existed without the body. The very point he makes about we are in this tent, we groan to be clothed which is in heaven. There is an intermediate state before we have the resurrection where we are united with our former body that is transformed to house us permanently.

He sums it all up in verse 8 saying, “we are always confident knowing that while we are home in the body we are absent from the Lord. and he goes on to say to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” Obviously something survives that has life after the body dies. What is absent when one dies? The soul. It becomes separated. Where is the Lord? In heaven. And that is exactly where Paul said all who die in Christ are headed. When all our earthly tent is dissolved, we can be assured that we will be in the presence of the One we serve and we love here on earth. We will be further clothed. We are immediately ushered into our new home like moving from one city to the next. in 2 Peter 1:13, Peter talks about putting off his tabernacle, or tent, calling it a temporary dwelling place. The person who is the spirit (soul -personality) leaves the body. The very meaning of death means that the believer enters immediately into the God's presence. That is the clear teaching of Scripture, that upon death, the believer enters where Christ is. So to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, death to the righteous means to be WITH Christ. Unfortunately there are some who are not confident. Christ is in heaven and so all believers go by his grace to be where he is.

Stephen in Acts 7 when he was stoned states he fell asleep. Does this mean his soul became unconscious? The term sleep is used only of believers not unbelievers. As death is a temporary suspending of our physical activity on earth but not of our Spirit. V.59 Stephen looked upward and cried out Lord receive my spirit. How can he receive it if its going to sleep in the ground? The Bible says this he said truthfully, being filled with the Holy Spirit. The Greek is explicit in that there is an urgency as in, receive it right now. There was no temporary stop over for Stephen. Just as Jesus committed his Spirit to the Father, Stephen committed his Spirit to the Son.

Heb.11 has the hall of the faithful who died Heb 12:1 tells us we are surrounded by a great crowd of witnesses. What kind of witnesses are these? Living ones who went before us. V.23 “to the general assembly and Church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect.” (the word for witnesses means those who are able to testify which certainly mean living ones).

Jesus taught that he is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of the living, not of the dead, referring to Moses at the burning bush. The purpose was to prove life exists beyond death, that God is still (not was) the God of the living. That the Saints of old were still alive “for all live unto Him.” This silenced the Sadducee’s who challenged Him on this matter because they did not believe in an afterlife and it should do the same for those Sadducees today who say that a soul cannot live after the body dies.

Acts 23:8: “For Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, no angels or spirit.” In other words not in body or spirit. Jesus refuted their teachings saying he was the God of the living not the dead. Josephus wrote in antiquities b.28:4 “The doctrine held by the Sadducees is this, that the souls die with the bodies.” Exactly what 7th day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses believe. Jesus refuted them by saying, God is the God of the living not the dead. As Josephus wrote “They take away the belief of the immortal existence of the soul and the punishment and rewards of Hades. (War b. 8:14)

In Jn.11:25-26 Jesus said “I am the resurrection and the life; he that believeth in me though he were dead, yet shall he live; and whoever liveth and Believeth in me shall NEVER die. Here is the blessed assurance that one will live forever, that one possesses a present life that will continue forever, never die.

The early Church upheld the teaching of scripture many of those who were the apologists spoke out on this issue as they did on others.

Justin Martyr 150 AD “We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire” (First Apology, 21).

Second Clement 150 AD “If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment” (Second Clement 5:5).

Athenagoras 177 AD “[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one ... Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul ... or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated” (Plea for the Christians 31).

Hippolytus 212 AD “Standing before [Christ's] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: 'Just if your judgment!' And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them” (Against the Greeks 3).

To the martyr's that died they had immediate glory in God's presence in heaven. To teach otherwise is to go against the whole body of scripture and almost 1500 years of the Church (until of course the reformation where purgatory was ratified). Did they all die with a false teaching of being in heaven?

In the catacombs of Rome are found inscriptions on tombs such as “In Christ, Alexander is not dead, but lives-his body rests in the tomb.” “Gone to dwell with Christ.” “One who is lives with God.” I cannot find any instance of soul sleep among the writers (both good or bad) in the first three centuries of the Church.)

In agreement Heb. 9:27 states after death, the judgment. In other words the judgment is that one goes either to heaven or to hell, and it is determined at death, not afterwards in a resurrection. So we go to rest and fellowship with the Lord, eventually to receive our rewards or to punishment and eternal separation, not to sleep.

In Mt.27:52 The scripture writes that at the time of the resurrection of Jesus many Bodiesof the saints which slept arose. Notice what slept, the bodies. And the bodies arose, not their souls. The spirit that continues to exists is put back in the body animating it to life. As Paul states in his teaching on the resurrection of the body (1 Cor.15:15-20) Christ is the firstfruits of those that slept.

1 Thess. 4:14-18 “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. Whether one believes this is the 2nd coming or the rapture, the point is made that there are those who come with Jesus to be united with their bodies. Since the dead rise first and those who are alive don’t receive a resurrection but a transformation. Vs.15 “For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.” Where is Jesus coming from? Heaven. If Jesus is bringing some people with him and they don’t have resurrected bodies yet, doesn’t this mean they are immaterial spirits. What dead are rising? Certainly this are not those who are alive and remain. The dead are those who bodies are put to sleep. This is exactly what Paul explains in 1 Cor.15:52-54 “the dead will be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed (those who are still alive) previously Paul explains the body in vs.35-49 vs.42 so is the resurrection of the dead. The BODY is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.” So resurrection refers to the human body not the soul or spirit, it is the body that sleeps and will be resurrected. As we have seen our hope is to be immediately with the Lord, not wait for some undetermined future time.

In conclusion it is the doctrine of soul sleep that needs to be put to death and out of existence.
 
. It is never used of the unbelievers in the New Testament. It is a term used only of believers which shows God's viewpoint of the death of a believer. From God's perspective the death of a believer is a temporary suspension of physical activity. For example, in physical sleep there is a temporary suspension of physical activity until one wakes up, but there is no suspension of the activity of the mind

Agreed, it may be that they are dreaming or aware of their surroundings.
However I disagree with the statement that it is only for believers.

Both the good and the evil are resurrected ( John 5:29; Acts 24:15; )

Jesus' own word's teach that there is an existence of rest and reward for the faithful and certain types of punishment and torment for those who are evil. In Lk.16 the story of the rich man and Lazarus, which is not a parable. The Lord would begin by saying he spoke to them in a parable, he did not use proper names as he did in this story (There was a certain man named Lazarus). However even if we were to grant this to be a parable, do we find any parable that did not tell the truth about the subject matter using illustrations for a real event? When the rich man died and was buried he spoke of being tormented in flame. It describes some type of heat that did not destroy him but made it extremely uncomfortable as he is existing in some type of form. He had his intelligence emotions and he could see, hear and speak as he asked for his family to be warned. He was still alive as he spoke, thirsted and remembered his family asking Abraham to send Lazarus to warn them so they would not end up in this PLACE of torment. (This word torment is used 5 times in the thirteen versus certainly making the point of how real it is).

And yet Lazarus was not in heaven, nor present with the Lord. He may not have been spiritually unconscious, but
he was not yet resurrected.

In Jn.11:25-26 Jesus said “I am the resurrection and the life; he that believeth in me though he were dead, yet shall he live; and whoever liveth and Believeth in me shall NEVER die. Here is the blessed assurance that one will live forever, that one possesses a present life that will continue forever, never die.

Again.. agreed... they aren't "dead". Well their physical bodies are dead. Dead does not mean asleep.

Whether one believes this is the 2nd coming or the rapture, the point is made that there are those who come with Jesus to be united with their bodies.

And yet you said our bodies decay I believe you said "rotting corpses". Jesus' body did not. But the rest of us do.
Our bodies return to the dust. We are never re-united with our earthly bodies after final death. (Yes, Jesus was )

1 Cor 15:35; But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?”
1 Cor 15:40; There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another.

Earthly bodies are not heavenly bodies.

1 Cor 15:42; So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
1 Cor 15:43; It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
1 Cor 15:44; It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Our natural bodies are not raised. Only our spiritual bodies.

1 Cor 15:45; Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1 Cor 15:46; But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.
1 Cor 15:47; The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.

We are men of "the earth", men "of dust" and that's where our bodies return.

1 Cor 15:48; As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
1 Cor 15:49; Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

Our earthly bodies are not resurrected. Our spirit is.
Does this happen at salvation? Paul didn't think so. ( 2 Tim 2:18; )
Besides, as you said... if the spirit is separated from our bodies... our bodies die.

Jesus didn't say we would be resurrected on the "first day". He said we would be resurrected on the "last day".
John 6:39-40; John 6:44; John 6:54;

Lazarus (the brother of Martha ) was a believer... was he resurrected when he became a believer? No.
Was he resurrected immediately when he died? No.

Martha knew he would be resurrected "on the last day" ( John 11:24; )
 
Agreed, it may be that they are dreaming or aware of their surroundings.
However I disagree with the statement that it is only for believers.

Both the good and the evil are resurrected ( John 5:29; Acts 24:15; )



And yet Lazarus was not in heaven, nor present with the Lord. He may not have been spiritually unconscious, but
he was not yet resurrected.



Again.. agreed... they aren't "dead". Well their physical bodies are dead. Dead does not mean asleep.



And yet you said our bodies decay I believe you said "rotting corpses". Jesus' body did not. But the rest of us do.
Our bodies return to the dust. We are never re-united with our earthly bodies after final death. (Yes, Jesus was )

1 Cor 15:35; But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?”
1 Cor 15:40; There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another.

Earthly bodies are not heavenly bodies.

1 Cor 15:42; So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
1 Cor 15:43; It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
1 Cor 15:44; It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Our natural bodies are not raised. Only our spiritual bodies.

1 Cor 15:45; Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1 Cor 15:46; But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.
1 Cor 15:47; The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.

We are men of "the earth", men "of dust" and that's where our bodies return.

1 Cor 15:48; As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
1 Cor 15:49; Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

Our earthly bodies are not resurrected. Our spirit is.
Does this happen at salvation? Paul didn't think so. ( 2 Tim 2:18; )
Besides, as you said... if the spirit is separated from our bodies... our bodies die.

Jesus didn't say we would be resurrected on the "first day". He said we would be resurrected on the "last day".
John 6:39-40; John 6:44; John 6:54;

Lazarus (the brother of Martha ) was a believer... was he resurrected when he became a believer? No.
Was he resurrected immediately when he died? No.

Martha knew he would be resurrected "on the last day" ( John 11:24; )
Agreed, it may be that they are dreaming or aware of their surroundings.
However I disagree with the statement that it is only for believers.

Both the good and the evil are resurrected ( John 5:29; Acts 24:15; )



And yet Lazarus was not in heaven, nor present with the Lord. He may not have been spiritually unconscious, but
he was not yet resurrected.



Again.. agreed... they aren't "dead". Well their physical bodies are dead. Dead does not mean asleep.



And yet you said our bodies decay I believe you said "rotting corpses". Jesus' body did not. But the rest of us do.
Our bodies return to the dust. We are never re-united with our earthly bodies after final death. (Yes, Jesus was )

1 Cor 15:35; But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?”
1 Cor 15:40; There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another.

Earthly bodies are not heavenly bodies.

1 Cor 15:42; So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
1 Cor 15:43; It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
1 Cor 15:44; It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Our natural bodies are not raised. Only our spiritual bodies.

1 Cor 15:45; Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1 Cor 15:46; But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.
1 Cor 15:47; The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.

We are men of "the earth", men "of dust" and that's where our bodies return.

1 Cor 15:48; As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
1 Cor 15:49; Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

Our earthly bodies are not resurrected. Our spirit is.
Does this happen at salvation? Paul didn't think so. ( 2 Tim 2:18; )
Besides, as you said... if the spirit is separated from our bodies... our bodies die.

Jesus didn't say we would be resurrected on the "first day". He said we would be resurrected on the "last day".
John 6:39-40; John 6:44; John 6:54;

Lazarus (the brother of Martha ) was a believer... was he resurrected when he became a believer? No.
Was he resurrected immediately when he died? No.

Martha knew he would be resurrected "on the last day" ( John 11:24; )

I just came in from a long walk and now I'm making dinner (I love to cook) so it'll take me a while to answer you. I will say though that I have NEVER heard anywhere in the bible where the spirit of a man sleeps.
 
Hello!
I'm sorry I haven't read all the replies but just going to add this is an interesting topic and my thoughts upon studying the bible about it, cos its a very important question is...

When we die, our spirit are given up to God. Like when Jesus died, it said he 'gave up the ghost'. I think that refers to his spirit..
Our physical bodies, because they belong to God as well, may perish, but God will raise them imperishable, so we DO get new bodies but spiritual bodies. We will still be recognisable as what God originally intended for us to be when He makes us new. I hope that makes sense.

The reason why we bury the dead not cremate them, ie.. christian burial, is because of this belief that God raised Jesus body. Now the body was not the perishable body he came in but made brand new, even though his scars on hands and feet do remind us what he went through. God doesn't want anyone destroying what He created, only He has the right to do that. Jesus warned that unbelievers will perish in hell and their bones etc are just burned everything to ashes. They will not get new bodies.

This is what I understand, hope it makes sense.
I don't get the 'soul sleep' thing I think there's a bit of confusion over that. We say RIP because our bodies are resting in the ground waiting for the resurrection. The resurrection has not happened yet cos if it has, you would see all these people walking round who'd died years and years ago. I think our souls do go to paradise but do not enter heaven before the gates are officially opened at the last trump.
 
Hello!
I'm sorry I haven't read all the replies but just going to add this is an interesting topic and my thoughts upon studying the bible about it, cos its a very important question is...

When we die, our spirit are given up to God. Like when Jesus died, it said he 'gave up the ghost'. I think that refers to his spirit..
Our physical bodies, because they belong to God as well, may perish, but God will raise them imperishable, so we DO get new bodies but spiritual bodies. We will still be recognisable as what God originally intended for us to be when He makes us new. I hope that makes sense.

The reason why we bury the dead not cremate them, ie.. christian burial, is because of this belief that God raised Jesus body. Now the body was not the perishable body he came in but made brand new, even though his scars on hands and feet do remind us what he went through. God doesn't want anyone destroying what He created, only He has the right to do that. Jesus warned that unbelievers will perish in hell and their bones etc are just burned everything to ashes. They will not get new bodies.

This is what I understand, hope it makes sense.
I don't get the 'soul sleep' thing I think there's a bit of confusion over that. We say RIP because our bodies are resting in the ground waiting for the resurrection. The resurrection has not happened yet cos if it has, you would see all these people walking round who'd died years and years ago. I think our souls do go to paradise but do not enter heaven before the gates are officially opened at the last trump.
I agree with you Lanolin, on most things...Unimportant things at that. I don't believe that cremation is wrong because its just a pile of dirt I'm cremating. Yes We'll have new bodies, glorified bodies clothed in the glory of God. And Yes The unsaved get new bodies too...
Daniel 12:2 (CJB)
2 Many of those sleeping in the dust of the earth will awaken, some to everlasting life and some to everlasting shame and abhorrence.
 
I just came in from a long walk and now I'm making dinner (I love to cook) so it'll take me a while to answer you. I will say though that I have NEVER heard anywhere in the bible where the spirit of a man sleeps.


Philippians 1:21-24 (CJB)

21 For to me, life is the Messiah, and death is gain. 22 But if by living on in the body I can do fruitful work, then I don’t know which to choose. 23 I am caught in a dilemma: my desire is to go off and be with the Messiah — that is better by far — 24 but because of you, the greater need is to stay on in the body.

Paul was saying that he would rather leave his body and go? To be with the Lord (No spirit sleeping in a dead body.)


Acts 7:54-59Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

54 On hearing these things, they were cut to their hearts and ground their teeth at him. 55 But he, full of the Ruach HaKodesh, looked up to heaven and saw God’s Sh’khinah, with Yeshua standing at the right hand of God. 56 “Look!” he exclaimed, “I see heaven opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”[a]

57 At this, they began yelling at the top of their voices, so that they wouldn’t have to hear him; and with one accord, they rushed at him, 58 threw him outside the city and began stoning him. And the witnesses laid down their coats at the feet of a young man named Sha’ul.

59 As they were stoning him, Stephen called out to God, “Lord Yeshua! Receive my spirit!”

Stephen knew that he was about to leave his body and go home.


Matthew 17:1-8Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

17 Six days later, Yeshua took Kefa, Ya‘akov and his brother Yochanan and led them up a high mountain privately. 2 As they watched, he began to change form — his face shone like the sun, and his clothing became as white as light. 3 Then they looked and saw Moshe and Eliyahu speaking with him. 4 Kefa said to Yeshua, “It’s good that we’re here, Lord. I’ll put up three shelters if you want — one for you, one for Moshe and one for Eliyahu.” 5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them; and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love, with whom I am well pleased. Listen to him!” 6 When the talmidim heard this, they were so frightened that they fell face down on the ground. 7 But Yeshua came and touched them. “Get up!” he said, “Don’t be afraid.” 8 So they opened their eyes, looked up and saw only Yeshua by himself.

So Moses died and his spirit did not wait in the grave…Yet we have a higher position than Moses.


John 11:23-27 (CJB)

23 Yeshua said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Marta said, “I know that he will rise again at the Resurrection on the Last Day.” 25 Yeshua said to her, “I AM the Resurrection and the Life! Whoever puts his trust in me will live, even if he dies; 26 and everyone living and trusting in me will never die. Do you believe this?” 27 She said to him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one coming into the world.”

And everyone living and trusting in me will never die… Notice Jesus corrected Martha's belief that her brother would only "live" in the resurrection. In contrast, Jesus revealed that believers will live even if they die, and in fact, they will never die in the way that our bodies do


1 Peter 3:18-20 (CJB)

18 For the Messiah himself died for sins, once and for all, a righteous person on behalf of unrighteous people, so that he might bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but brought to life by the Spirit; 19 and in this form he went and made a proclamation to the imprisoned spirits, 20 to those who were disobedient long ago, in the days of Noach, when God waited patiently during the building of the ark, in which a few people — to be specific, eight — were delivered by means of water.

Isn’t this interesting?! Here it says where went and spoke to the people in hell.


We can resolve many of the interpretation conflicts that surround the issue of death by simply keeping the earthly physical body's inanimate state after death completely separate from the soul's spiritual life and location apart from the body


Luke 23:42-43 (CJB)

42 Then he said, “Yeshua, remember me when you come as King.” 43 Yeshua said to him, “Yes! I promise that you will be with me today in Gan-‘Eden.”

No. Surely Jesus meant that the thief would be with Him at the resurrection? No…He meant TODAY!


In Luke 16:19–31, Lazarus and the rich man were in "Abraham's bosom" and "Hades" after their deaths. But some people conclude that those "waiting places" indicate that our souls will wait for heaven in similar places. Actually, this story, told by Jesus himself, teaches that the soul is not sleeping but alive and conscious after death and before bodily resurrection. Incidentally, this is the only time the phrase "Abraham's bosom" appears in the Bible. "Abraham's bosom" was an expression referring to the "paradise" Jesus anticipated following His death.


2 Corinthians 5:1-5 (CJB)

5 We know that when the tent which houses us here on earth is torn down, we have a permanent building from God, a building not made by human hands, to house us in heaven. 2 For in this tent, our earthly body, we groan with desire to have around us the home from heaven that will be ours. 3 With this around us we will not be found naked. 4 Yes, while we are in this body, we groan with the sense of being oppressed: it is not so much that we want to take something off, but rather to put something on over it; so that what must die may be swallowed up by the Life. 5 Moreover, it is God who has prepared us for this very thing, and as a pledge he has given us his Spirit.

So When we die we take off these bodies and put on new ones.


Romans 8:23-24 (CJB)

23 and not only it, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we continue waiting eagerly to be made sons — that is, to have our whole bodies redeemed and set free. 24 It was in this hope that we were saved. But if we see what we hope for, it isn’t hope — after all, who hopes for what he already sees?

Pretty hard to wait when we’re sleeping and unaware.


We can learn about our resurrected bodies by considering Jesus's body after His resurrection. We know that Jesus ate and drank, that the disciples could touch Him, and that He had flesh and bones yet could move at will without physical limitations. "See my hands and my feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have" (Luke 24:39). If Jesus's resurrected body could do all these things, our resurrected bodies likely will too.
 
I personally think bones are important to God as he formed us in the womb and fashioned us.
Also Ezekiel mentions that God makes dry bones live.
And when Jesus was crucified not one bone was broken, the other mens' bones were.
I think this matters in how we treat a loved one's body. So that's why it saddens me when I see christians being cremated or having family cremate believers. It just seems wrong.
It doesn't matter the other parts of the body but the bones are what make you physically YOU and unique because they contain God's blueprints.

When Eve was formed out of Adam, she was shaped from Adam's rib.
 
'fallen asleep' is a euphemism for being dead. This was used in one of the church letters I think it was Thessalonians in which was mentioned some saints have 'fallen asleep'. Meaning they are dead. Notice that, Paul did not say 'gone to be with the Lord' or 'gone to heaven'.

Maybe it's just a phrase, but I suppose it does cause confusion to some people, and that's why theres different interpretations. Another word used would be they are at rest. I take it to mean 'resting in paradise of God' and also, when the bible mentions that those people will wake to everlasting life, I do kind of think of a literal awakening.

I don't think it's anything to be concerned over though, it's not like we are like catholics and talk to dead people and think they hear. They can't because they are dead. If we want to we just talk to Jesus and the angels will probably get the message to pass on to them later. I don't know, but I do know we not meant to talk to the dead as if they are alive.
 
Bendito, are you Jewish? I just notice you referring to a CJB 'complete jewish bible'.
I prefer the KJV myself it's easier. I don't have a CJB but I have read some of it. I think it's in a slightly different order to other translations but I don't know if things are missing out of it, may have to be careful there.

Yea be careful you don't miss anything from scriptures, as not all bibles are the same.
 
Bendito, are you Jewish? I just notice you referring to a CJB 'complete jewish bible'.
I prefer the KJV myself it's easier. I don't have a CJB but I have read some of it. I think it's in a slightly different order to other translations but I don't know if things are missing out of it, may have to be careful there.

Yea be careful you don't miss anything from scriptures, as not all bibles are the same.

My Lady is Jewish She led me to the Lord before we were married more than forty years ago. My ancestry is Jewish from waaaaaaay back...It would take some heavy equipment to dig that deep though. I feel such a strong draw to those roots that....I might as well be born in Israel.:) As to the CJB I find it gives me a clearer view of the Word. Does that make us Messianic Christians? No.

I am curious about you too. From your views of cremation I'm thinking there could be some Roman Catholicism there? Or maybe just a lovely sensitive heart?
 
The state of the physical body does not matter that much.

What about people burned up fires? Blow up by bombs? There have been some people blown up by nuclear bombs
and vaporized instantly. There have been people eaten by wolves, bears, tigers, sharks, piranhas, and who knows what else.
Some people are quadriplegics, some were born that way.

Some eastern religions believed you had the body intact to be resurrected. Some would even cut up "infidels" bodies
and disperse the parts many miles from each other, just so you couldn't be resurrected.

But I can find no evidence in the Bible that the flesh/natural body is ever resurrected.

@Bendito used Lazarus as an example that we don't sleep. My point wasn't so much that we "sleep" or don't "sleep"
but rather that we don't immediately go to heaven the instant we die. If you're going to use Lazarus as an example,
remember he (righteous) wasn't in heaven yet, and he was still connected to his old body in some way. The rich man
(un-righteous) wasn't yet in the lake of fire yet, but was still able to feel pain somehow.

Lazarus had at least a finger, and the rich man had at least a tongue ( Luke 16:24; )
Both of them had their consciousness, ("spirit") about them. So their spirit was still with their bodies. That was my
point.

John 3:13; says "No one" has gone to heaven yet, except the one who descended from heaven (Jesus).
Acts 2:34; says not even David (a man after God's own heart) has ascended into heaven yet.
 
There are dozens of verses that talk about our bodies returning to the dust.
I think almost all of us have seen decayed bodies and skeletons at some point. Not just zombies and fictional
deaths in the movies, but news clips of bodies or graves dug up from the past. The thing is... our bodies decay.
(Jesus' body did not - Acts 2:27; Acts 2:31; Acts 13:34-37)
But for everyone else... we do. - Acts 13:36;
 
There are dozens of verses that talk about our bodies returning to the dust.
I think almost all of us have seen decayed bodies and skeletons at some point. Not just zombies and fictional
deaths in the movies, but news clips of bodies or graves dug up from the past. The thing is... our bodies decay.
(Jesus' body did not - Acts 2:27; Acts 2:31; Acts 13:34-37)
But for everyone else... we do. - Acts 13:36;

Dear friend, if you want to hang around and keep a corpse company for a while go for it. Me? When this body drops I'm going home!
 
So if our bodies are not resurrected.... what is? The Spirit? The soul (I believe there is a difference between the two) ?
Whether we are "asleep" or not... I don't believe our spirit is resurrected until the last day.

John 6:39; This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
John 6:40; For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:44; No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day

It seems that "something" is raised on the "last day". What is it if it isn't our bodies?

John 6:54; He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 5:28; Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Both the good and the evil will be resurrected at the same time. It isn't their bodies that will be judged. It is their
souls, their spirits.

John 11:24; Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”
John 11:25; Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
John 11:26; and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Even Lazarus would be raised up.. on the "last day". I'm not saying we are dead in the meantime.
I do not believe our spirits die. (Even the un-righteous spirit doesn't die).

Acts 24:15; having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
Acts 24:16; In view of this, I also do my best to maintain always a blameless conscience both before God and before men.

Even the wicked will be resurrected.
But it may be that some don't "come back to life" for a while.

Rev 20:4; Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5; The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

If there is no pre-trib rapture... then only those who have been beheaded during the tribulation will reign with Christ
during the millennial reign. The "rest of the dead" do not come back to life until after the 1,000 years is over.
 
1 Thes 4:13; But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
1 Thes 4:14; For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
1 Thes 4:15; For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1 Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

The "dead in Christ" (believers - "in Christ" who are dead) do not rise until the "voice of the archangel" and "the trumpet of God".
Then those who are still "alive" - will join them in the clouds.
 
1 Thes 4:13; But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
1 Thes 4:14; For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
1 Thes 4:15; For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1 Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

The "dead in Christ" (believers - "in Christ" who are dead) do not rise until the "voice of the archangel" and "the trumpet of God".
Then those who are still "alive" - will join them in the clouds.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (CJB)
13 Now, brothers, we want you to know the truth about those who have died; otherwise, you might become sad the way other people 14 do who have nothing to hope for. For since we believe that Yeshua died and rose again, we also believe that in the same way God, through Yeshua, will take with him those who have died. 15 When we say this, we base it on the Lord’s own word: we who remain alive when the Lord comes will certainly not take precedence over those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a rousing cry, with a call from one of the ruling angels, and with God’s shofar; those who died united with the Messiah will be the first to rise; 17 then we who are left still alive will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.

This is talking about our bodies, not our spirits...Not us but our shells.
 
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (CJB)
This is talking about our bodies, not our spirits...Not us but our shells.


I would ask if you can prove that in scripture.

But I would also ask... if you don't want to be with your old decayed, rotted body...
why would you want to be re-united with it at this point? If it is only our body that is resurrected,
why would you want your old body?
 
Back
Top