religion
- Thread starter dpmartin
- Start date
Since we agree
I was hoping to get some understanding on how “religion” could be avoided in a situation I believe is the will of God. Tho yes one can say well if it’s the will of God, bla bla bla. But there is a prophecy that has been verified mind you, that there is to be a school of discipleship in this town I am in. But the individuals that are presently in charge are of a fledgling ministry, which did agree with, school of discipleship, with an Amen, are from a food kitchen for the poor efforts and use the reference in James to support a religious right, so to speak. And I keep trying to explain that their position as “religion” is no different than any other. You break one rule you broke them all. And if accused you are guilty. Feeding poor is a matter of doing so, it is not a religious calling.
And this prophecy is a, if not, the Lord will do it otherwise.
If the Spirit leads you, please express any incite one might have.
I was hoping to get some understanding on how “religion” could be avoided in a situation I believe is the will of God. Tho yes one can say well if it’s the will of God, bla bla bla. But there is a prophecy that has been verified mind you, that there is to be a school of discipleship in this town I am in. But the individuals that are presently in charge are of a fledgling ministry, which did agree with, school of discipleship, with an Amen, are from a food kitchen for the poor efforts and use the reference in James to support a religious right, so to speak. And I keep trying to explain that their position as “religion” is no different than any other. You break one rule you broke them all. And if accused you are guilty. Feeding poor is a matter of doing so, it is not a religious calling.
And this prophecy is a, if not, the Lord will do it otherwise.
If the Spirit leads you, please express any incite one might have.
You are correct brother....absolutely.
I just wonder sometimes if denominations are responsible for the founding of religion?
Even in scripture they said "I am of Paul....I am of Apollos..." Paul had to remind them that one person sows, another waters, but only God can give the increase.
Which came first the religion or the denomination? Bit like the chicken and the egg question.
You are right to make the point brother that there is no religion in the Kingdom of God.
stephen
Yes but what can be done about it? Not only is it oppressive to the Spiritual well being of those in the Lord, especially the young. But in relating to others the Truth of Jesus the Christ, words like “Christian” and “church” are synonymous with religion or religious in their hearts and minds. And it doesn’t take a profit to see that religion is used for the self righteous and those who seek to control and or manipulate others. Which hinders the reaching out to those who may honestly be considering seeking the Living God. But from their point of view, it’s a no way if it is a religion.
Yes but what can be done about it? Not only is it oppressive to the Spiritual well being of those in the Lord, especially the young. But in relating to others the Truth of Jesus the Christ, words like “Christian” and “church” are synonymous with religion or religious in their hearts and minds. And it doesn’t take a profit to see that religion is used for the self righteous and those who seek to control and or manipulate others. Which hinders the reaching out to those who may honestly be considering seeking the Living God. But from their point of view, it’s a no way if it is a religion.
Denominations are important
Denominations are important not because there is a better way to heaven or that one way is right and another wrong but if people with like beliefs group themselves together it avoids the constant bickering that results from everybody being all mixed up. That way the ‘new shoots’ can grow without being uprooted.
God bless
Denominations are important not because there is a better way to heaven or that one way is right and another wrong but if people with like beliefs group themselves together it avoids the constant bickering that results from everybody being all mixed up. That way the ‘new shoots’ can grow without being uprooted.
God bless
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Disciple Mike
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You cant have a relationship with Christ without religion. It's two different sides of the same coin. Like Old Testament and New Testament or Like Law and Grace, They compliment each other. Christ didnt condemn religion, He condemned Pride......
Just food for thought'''
Peace be with you...
Just food for thought'''
Peace be with you...
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I don't recall any Scripture that says you cannot have a relationship with Christ without religion. Your statement has no merit if it is not backed by Scripture.
Let's not forget, Christianity is about RELATIONSHIP not religion. I don't have a "religion", I have a relationship with Christ. There are hundreds, may be thousands of "religions" out there. Why? Because those do not have a relationship with Jesus, instead they have a religion of their own beliefs.
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. James 1:27
Let us not jump ahead with too many opinions on the subject of religion. This my brother Mike, is the same side as Jesus our Lord, and you can't get much closer to the bosom of God than to be likewise religious.
Too often we see the 'religious' activities of those who claim to know Him. Too often , too much is said without wisdom, understanding, knowledge or instruction. Too often we see the same religious behaviour of the Scribes, the Pharisees, the Saducees, the High Priests, the Lawyers...all rulers in high places, who went about seeing to it that the door to the Kingdom of God was tightly sealed, rather than opened, making it impossible for any to enter in, with laws, rules...doctrines of man, not lifting a finger to help, going to the ends of the earth to make one convert, but only to convert them to their blind ways.
Religion as we know it, that is, not relating to the above scripture from James, but rather what we see throughout history and even today, is the enemy to the Gospel. It binds up rather than loosens, blinds rather than gives sight, imprisons rather than sets free.
Yes, there are many well meaning people wanting to serve the Lord, but as in the days of old, they fall prey to blind guides.
Folks the world over are sick of what they see and find no Saviour in the religious activities of what is called the church. As in the days of old, people are finding no freedom in organized, pastorized, legalistic, religion. The religious leaders spread lies to cover their ignorance, hiding behind puffed up words that further hinder the spread of the Gospel, putting out the fire in young believers, the very fire they should be fanning, the fire that catches alight all in their path, and this they do by blaming the devil for keeping folks away from the churches. Strong words , I know. But in truth, this is exactly as it was when Jesus lived among us, when the leaders of the church i.e. the synagouge...the temple...the law... oppressed the Truth and crucified Him.
The yoke is the same, but we see that it now is called religion.
People want what the Gospel offers. They hunger for it. We are meant to feed them the love of God, not the traditions of man. People are dying without hope and assurance. Let us be servants, ministering to God and man, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.
Bless you,
Br. Bear
Let us not jump ahead with too many opinions on the subject of religion. This my brother Mike, is the same side as Jesus our Lord, and you can't get much closer to the bosom of God than to be likewise religious.
Too often we see the 'religious' activities of those who claim to know Him. Too often , too much is said without wisdom, understanding, knowledge or instruction. Too often we see the same religious behaviour of the Scribes, the Pharisees, the Saducees, the High Priests, the Lawyers...all rulers in high places, who went about seeing to it that the door to the Kingdom of God was tightly sealed, rather than opened, making it impossible for any to enter in, with laws, rules...doctrines of man, not lifting a finger to help, going to the ends of the earth to make one convert, but only to convert them to their blind ways.
Religion as we know it, that is, not relating to the above scripture from James, but rather what we see throughout history and even today, is the enemy to the Gospel. It binds up rather than loosens, blinds rather than gives sight, imprisons rather than sets free.
Yes, there are many well meaning people wanting to serve the Lord, but as in the days of old, they fall prey to blind guides.
Folks the world over are sick of what they see and find no Saviour in the religious activities of what is called the church. As in the days of old, people are finding no freedom in organized, pastorized, legalistic, religion. The religious leaders spread lies to cover their ignorance, hiding behind puffed up words that further hinder the spread of the Gospel, putting out the fire in young believers, the very fire they should be fanning, the fire that catches alight all in their path, and this they do by blaming the devil for keeping folks away from the churches. Strong words , I know. But in truth, this is exactly as it was when Jesus lived among us, when the leaders of the church i.e. the synagouge...the temple...the law... oppressed the Truth and crucified Him.
The yoke is the same, but we see that it now is called religion.
People want what the Gospel offers. They hunger for it. We are meant to feed them the love of God, not the traditions of man. People are dying without hope and assurance. Let us be servants, ministering to God and man, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.
Bless you,
Br. Bear
Disciple Mike
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you said:
"We are meant to feed them the love of God, not the traditions of man."
First let me say Hi, and I look foward to fellowshiping with you. I agree that the traditions of men can be bad if the men are being led by the flesh, but wasnt the Bible built on traditions and oral teachings?
John14;26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have "SAID" unto you.
This verse shows it was oral, at least it does to me...
1Corinth11;2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances(traditions), as I delivered them to you.
1Thes2;15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, "whether by word, or our epistle"
This says whether by word( oral) or epistle( written)
2Thes3;6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
This could mean that there should be some order in a church otherwise it could become confusing, or not I guess....
What do you think my brother?
In reference to “Grace and law” I concur with Chad.
I believe a particular thing must be understood about the law as in handed down through Moses. If you might notice that the law unfulfillable by any man was given by who? The One who fulfilled it. If I have a household and I make rules, I make rules that are like me and only I can fulfill them, because you have to be me to do them perfectly. If it be my habit to drink two cups of coffee at 8:00 am every morning then that’s the law, if I decide to have three or none, no matter, I am lord of this law. Therefore only the Lord Jesus could fulfill the law, and is Lord of the law, for it is to be exactly like Him. It was the duty of Israel to wittiness and verify Him for He fulfilled the law perfectly. Only the Lord can be the Lord. Therefore it is Grace and Truth, not law. We are not required to fulfill the law. We are required to worship in Spirit and Truth. But make no mistake, the Truth, the Word of God is the law of all things.
in the case of.....
Jms:1:27: Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Surly, would it not be wiser to not be a religion, and visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, then to be a religion and fall short? And be accused and guilty thereof?
As far as tradition, surly we are to worship in Spirit and Truth, not in activity. If like minds see fit to organize to accommodate the edification of one another that is fine. There are many means of organizing. But it is not a law that condemns you, or judges you, nor is it a religion, unless or course you make it one.
I believe a particular thing must be understood about the law as in handed down through Moses. If you might notice that the law unfulfillable by any man was given by who? The One who fulfilled it. If I have a household and I make rules, I make rules that are like me and only I can fulfill them, because you have to be me to do them perfectly. If it be my habit to drink two cups of coffee at 8:00 am every morning then that’s the law, if I decide to have three or none, no matter, I am lord of this law. Therefore only the Lord Jesus could fulfill the law, and is Lord of the law, for it is to be exactly like Him. It was the duty of Israel to wittiness and verify Him for He fulfilled the law perfectly. Only the Lord can be the Lord. Therefore it is Grace and Truth, not law. We are not required to fulfill the law. We are required to worship in Spirit and Truth. But make no mistake, the Truth, the Word of God is the law of all things.
in the case of.....
Jms:1:27: Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Surly, would it not be wiser to not be a religion, and visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, then to be a religion and fall short? And be accused and guilty thereof?
As far as tradition, surly we are to worship in Spirit and Truth, not in activity. If like minds see fit to organize to accommodate the edification of one another that is fine. There are many means of organizing. But it is not a law that condemns you, or judges you, nor is it a religion, unless or course you make it one.
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Cody
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I'm a member of a Baptist church and I thank God for my preacher and my church members. My church has helped me grow so much and I won't ever forget the night I got saved there. The thing is, that church will pass away, but the one church that will never pass away is the church of God. I pray that you are part of that church, if not just ask God and he'll write your name down in the Book of Life. It doesn't matter what religion or church you belong to, when judgment day comes and your name isn't written down, you will be cast into hell.
Luke 21:33
"Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away."
Revelation 20:15
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Luke 21:33
"Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away."
Revelation 20:15
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Disciple Mike
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Im confused, without any type of order or without the traditions Christ gave and the apostles how can we really have a deep relationship with Christ? I know we have the Holy Spirit, but everyone says they are led by him yet there are so many different opinions, isnt the same Holy Spirit in each of us?
I will post these scriptures again, Can anyone tell me what do they mean?
1Corinth11;2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances(traditions), as I delivered them to you.
1Thes2;15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, "whether by word, or our epistle"
2Thes3;6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
Peace....
I will post these scriptures again, Can anyone tell me what do they mean?
1Corinth11;2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances(traditions), as I delivered them to you.
1Thes2;15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, "whether by word, or our epistle"
2Thes3;6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
Peace....
Barnes Notes on the 3 verses
*** 1Co 11:2 Verse 2. Now I praise you, brethren. Paul always chose to commend Christians when it could be done, and never seemed to suppose that such praise would be injurious to them. See [1Co 1:4]; See [1Co 1:5]. On this occasion he was the more ready to praise them, as far as it could be done, because there were some things in regard to them in which he would have occasion to reprove them.
That ye remember me in all things. That you are disposed to regard my authority and seek my direction in all matters pertaining to the good order of the church. There can be little doubt that they had consulted him in their letter (#1Co 7:1) about the proper manner in which a woman ought to demean herself if she was called upon, under the influence of Divine inspiration, to utter anything in public. The question seems to have been, whether, since she was inspired, it was proper for her to retain the marks of her inferiority of rank, and remain covered; or whether the fact of her inspiration did not release her from that obligation, and make it proper that she should lay aside her veil, and appear as public speakers did among men. To this the apostle refers, probably, in the phrase "all things," that even in matters of this kind, pertaining to the good order of the church, they were disposed to regard his authority.
And keep the ordinances. Margin, Traditions, (~tav paradoseiv~). The word does not refer to anything that had been delivered down from a former generation, or from former times, as the word tradition now usually signifies; but it means that which had been delivered to them, (~paradidwmi~
i.e., by the apostles. The apostles had delivered to them certain doctrines, or rules, respecting the good order and the government of the church; and they had in general observed them, and were disposed still to do it. For this disposition to regard his authority, and to keep what he had enjoined, he commends them. He proceeds to specify what would be proper in regard to the particular subject on which they had made inquiry.
{b} "that ye" #1Co 4:17
{c} "keep" #Lu 1:6
{1} "ordinances" "traditions"
*** 2Thess 2:15 Believers Should Be Established In The Word (2:13-17)
Paul is referring to what he had taught them when he was with them. It is the Word which enables the believer to stand and be stable.
Verse 15. Therefore. In view of the fact that you are thus chosen from eternity, and that you are to be raised up to such honour and glory.
Stand fast. Amidst all the temptations which surround you. Comp. See [Eph 6:10] and following.
And hold the traditions which ye have been taught. On the word traditions, See [Mt 15:2]. It means properly things delivered over from one to another; then anything orally delivered--any precept, doctrine, or law. It is frequently employed to denote that which is not written, as contradistinguished from that which is written, (comp. #Mt 15:2,) but not necessarily or always; for here the Apostle speaks of the "traditions which they had been taught by his epistle." Comp. See [1Co 11:2]. Here it means the doctrines or precepts which they had received from the apostle, whether when he was with them, or after he left them; whether communicated by preaching or by letter. This passage can furnish no authority for holding the "traditions" which have come down from ancient times, and which profess to have been derived from the apostles; for
(1.) there is no evidence that any of those traditions were given by the apostles;
(2.) many of them are manifestly so trifling, false, and contrary to the writings of the apostles, that they could not have been delivered by them;
(3.) if any of them are genuine, it is impossible to separate them from those which are false,
(4.) we have all that is necessary for salvation in the written word; and
(5.) there is not the least evidence that the apostle here meant to refer to any such thing. He speaks only of what had been delivered to them by himself, whether orally or by letter; not of what was delivered from one to another as from him. There is no intimation here that they were to hold anything as from him which they had not received directly from him, either by his own instructions personally or by letter. With what propriety, then, can this passage be adduced to prove that we are to hold the traditions which professedly come to us through a great number of intermediate persons? Nowhere is the evidence here that the church was to hold those unwritten traditions, and transmit them to future times?
Whether by word. By preaching, when we were with you. It does not mean that he had sent any oral message to them by a third person.
Or our epistle. The former letter which he had written to them.
{*} "Traditions" "doctrines"
*** 2Thess 3:6 Now we command you, brethren. The apostle now #2Th 3:6-12 turns to an important subject--the proper method of treating those who were idle and disorderly in the church. In the previous epistle he had adverted to this subject, but in the mild language of exhortation. When he wrote that epistle he was aware that there were some among them who were disposed to be idle, and he had tenderly exhorted them "to be quiet, and to mind their own business, and to work with their own hands," #1Th 4:11. But it seems the exhortation, and the example of Paul himself when there, #1Th 2:9, had not been effectual in inducing them to be industrious. It became, therefore, necessary to use the strong language of command, as he does here, and to require that if they would not work, the church should withdraw from them. What was the original cause of their idleness, is not known. There seems no reason, however, to doubt that it was much increased by their expectation that the Saviour would soon appear, and that the world would soon come to an end. If this was to be so, of what use would it be to labour? Why strive to accumulate property with reference to the wants of a family, or to a day of sickness, or old age? Why should a man build a house that was soon to be burnt up, or why buy a farm which he was so soon to leave? The effect of the expectation of the speedy appearing of the Lord Jesus has always been to induce men to neglect their worldly affairs, and to lead idle lives. Man, naturally disposed to be idle, wants the stimulus of hope that he is labouring for the future welfare of himself, for his family, or for society, nor will he labour if he believes that the Saviour is about to appear.
In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.--See [1Co 5:4].
That ye withdraw yourselves. See [1Ti 6:6]. This is the true notion of Christian discipline. It is not primarily that of cutting a man off, or denouncing him, or excommunicating him; it is that of withdrawing from him. We cease to have fellowship with him. We do not regard him any longer as a Christian brother. We separate from him. We do not seek to affect him in any other respect; we do not injure his name or standing as a man, or hold him up to reprobation; we do not follow him with denunciation or a spirit of revenge; we simply cease to recognize him as a Christian brother, when he shows that he is no longer worthy to be regarded as such. We do not deliver him over to the civil arm; we do not inflict any positive punishment on him; we leave him unmolested in all his rights as a citizen, a man, a neighbour, a husband, a father, and simply say that he is no longer one of us as a Christian. How different is this from excommunication, as it has been commonly understood! How different from the anathemas fulminated by the Papacy, and the delivering of the heretic over to the civil power!
From every brother that walketh disorderly. See [1Co 5:11], also #1Co 5:12-13. A "disorderly walk" denotes conduct that is in any way contrary to the rules of Christ. The proper idea of the word used here (~ataktwv~,) is that of soldiers who do not keep the ranks; who are regardless of order; and then who are irregular in any way. The word would include any violation of the rules of Christ on any subject.
And not after the tradition which ye received of us. According to the doctrine which we delivered to you. See [2Th 2:15]. This shows that by the word "tradition" the apostle did not mean unwritten doctrines handed down from one to another, for he evidently alludes to what he had himself taught them, and his direction is not that that should be handed down by them, but that they should obey it.
{a} "withdraw yourselves" #1Ti 6:5
{b} "every brother that walketh disorderly" #1Co 5:11,13
{*} "received of us" "doctrine which you received of us"
*** 1Co 11:2 Verse 2. Now I praise you, brethren. Paul always chose to commend Christians when it could be done, and never seemed to suppose that such praise would be injurious to them. See [1Co 1:4]; See [1Co 1:5]. On this occasion he was the more ready to praise them, as far as it could be done, because there were some things in regard to them in which he would have occasion to reprove them.
That ye remember me in all things. That you are disposed to regard my authority and seek my direction in all matters pertaining to the good order of the church. There can be little doubt that they had consulted him in their letter (#1Co 7:1) about the proper manner in which a woman ought to demean herself if she was called upon, under the influence of Divine inspiration, to utter anything in public. The question seems to have been, whether, since she was inspired, it was proper for her to retain the marks of her inferiority of rank, and remain covered; or whether the fact of her inspiration did not release her from that obligation, and make it proper that she should lay aside her veil, and appear as public speakers did among men. To this the apostle refers, probably, in the phrase "all things," that even in matters of this kind, pertaining to the good order of the church, they were disposed to regard his authority.
And keep the ordinances. Margin, Traditions, (~tav paradoseiv~). The word does not refer to anything that had been delivered down from a former generation, or from former times, as the word tradition now usually signifies; but it means that which had been delivered to them, (~paradidwmi~
i.e., by the apostles. The apostles had delivered to them certain doctrines, or rules, respecting the good order and the government of the church; and they had in general observed them, and were disposed still to do it. For this disposition to regard his authority, and to keep what he had enjoined, he commends them. He proceeds to specify what would be proper in regard to the particular subject on which they had made inquiry. {b} "that ye" #1Co 4:17
{c} "keep" #Lu 1:6
{1} "ordinances" "traditions"
*** 2Thess 2:15 Believers Should Be Established In The Word (2:13-17)
Paul is referring to what he had taught them when he was with them. It is the Word which enables the believer to stand and be stable.
Verse 15. Therefore. In view of the fact that you are thus chosen from eternity, and that you are to be raised up to such honour and glory.
Stand fast. Amidst all the temptations which surround you. Comp. See [Eph 6:10] and following.
And hold the traditions which ye have been taught. On the word traditions, See [Mt 15:2]. It means properly things delivered over from one to another; then anything orally delivered--any precept, doctrine, or law. It is frequently employed to denote that which is not written, as contradistinguished from that which is written, (comp. #Mt 15:2,) but not necessarily or always; for here the Apostle speaks of the "traditions which they had been taught by his epistle." Comp. See [1Co 11:2]. Here it means the doctrines or precepts which they had received from the apostle, whether when he was with them, or after he left them; whether communicated by preaching or by letter. This passage can furnish no authority for holding the "traditions" which have come down from ancient times, and which profess to have been derived from the apostles; for
(1.) there is no evidence that any of those traditions were given by the apostles;
(2.) many of them are manifestly so trifling, false, and contrary to the writings of the apostles, that they could not have been delivered by them;
(3.) if any of them are genuine, it is impossible to separate them from those which are false,
(4.) we have all that is necessary for salvation in the written word; and
(5.) there is not the least evidence that the apostle here meant to refer to any such thing. He speaks only of what had been delivered to them by himself, whether orally or by letter; not of what was delivered from one to another as from him. There is no intimation here that they were to hold anything as from him which they had not received directly from him, either by his own instructions personally or by letter. With what propriety, then, can this passage be adduced to prove that we are to hold the traditions which professedly come to us through a great number of intermediate persons? Nowhere is the evidence here that the church was to hold those unwritten traditions, and transmit them to future times?
Whether by word. By preaching, when we were with you. It does not mean that he had sent any oral message to them by a third person.
Or our epistle. The former letter which he had written to them.
{*} "Traditions" "doctrines"
*** 2Thess 3:6 Now we command you, brethren. The apostle now #2Th 3:6-12 turns to an important subject--the proper method of treating those who were idle and disorderly in the church. In the previous epistle he had adverted to this subject, but in the mild language of exhortation. When he wrote that epistle he was aware that there were some among them who were disposed to be idle, and he had tenderly exhorted them "to be quiet, and to mind their own business, and to work with their own hands," #1Th 4:11. But it seems the exhortation, and the example of Paul himself when there, #1Th 2:9, had not been effectual in inducing them to be industrious. It became, therefore, necessary to use the strong language of command, as he does here, and to require that if they would not work, the church should withdraw from them. What was the original cause of their idleness, is not known. There seems no reason, however, to doubt that it was much increased by their expectation that the Saviour would soon appear, and that the world would soon come to an end. If this was to be so, of what use would it be to labour? Why strive to accumulate property with reference to the wants of a family, or to a day of sickness, or old age? Why should a man build a house that was soon to be burnt up, or why buy a farm which he was so soon to leave? The effect of the expectation of the speedy appearing of the Lord Jesus has always been to induce men to neglect their worldly affairs, and to lead idle lives. Man, naturally disposed to be idle, wants the stimulus of hope that he is labouring for the future welfare of himself, for his family, or for society, nor will he labour if he believes that the Saviour is about to appear.
In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.--See [1Co 5:4].
That ye withdraw yourselves. See [1Ti 6:6]. This is the true notion of Christian discipline. It is not primarily that of cutting a man off, or denouncing him, or excommunicating him; it is that of withdrawing from him. We cease to have fellowship with him. We do not regard him any longer as a Christian brother. We separate from him. We do not seek to affect him in any other respect; we do not injure his name or standing as a man, or hold him up to reprobation; we do not follow him with denunciation or a spirit of revenge; we simply cease to recognize him as a Christian brother, when he shows that he is no longer worthy to be regarded as such. We do not deliver him over to the civil arm; we do not inflict any positive punishment on him; we leave him unmolested in all his rights as a citizen, a man, a neighbour, a husband, a father, and simply say that he is no longer one of us as a Christian. How different is this from excommunication, as it has been commonly understood! How different from the anathemas fulminated by the Papacy, and the delivering of the heretic over to the civil power!
From every brother that walketh disorderly. See [1Co 5:11], also #1Co 5:12-13. A "disorderly walk" denotes conduct that is in any way contrary to the rules of Christ. The proper idea of the word used here (~ataktwv~,) is that of soldiers who do not keep the ranks; who are regardless of order; and then who are irregular in any way. The word would include any violation of the rules of Christ on any subject.
And not after the tradition which ye received of us. According to the doctrine which we delivered to you. See [2Th 2:15]. This shows that by the word "tradition" the apostle did not mean unwritten doctrines handed down from one to another, for he evidently alludes to what he had himself taught them, and his direction is not that that should be handed down by them, but that they should obey it.
{a} "withdraw yourselves" #1Ti 6:5
{b} "every brother that walketh disorderly" #1Co 5:11,13
{*} "received of us" "doctrine which you received of us"
Greetings Disciple Mike,
If I may first point out that the Church is the Body of Christ, made up of members, like you and me, all members of His Church, and as in the days of Paul who you quote, there were congregations in the various towns, villages and cities.
We see today things that ought not be.
1 Corinthians 1:10.... Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
and....
Psalm 133:1.... Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!
Now, since you are referring to those days of Paul....known as the early church...we need to look at how order was placed and kept.
Many times there is reference to the manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit. We even have occasion of a couple dishonouring God and that resulted in two carcases being dragged away. Stern words.
Remember that these folks were living and fellowshipping in the power of the Spirit. We don't see this happening much today, and for those who consider themselves to be doing such, let us remember that persecution was part of the deal...something we seem to avoid somehow...so something is missing...you see, the truth MUST be rejected and violently for Scripture to be fulfilled...no-one really wants to accept this let alone believe it, hoping in rapture rather than the return...the glorious return of Jesus, and He was quite clear about it when He (orally) spoke about it, and history records just such opposition....all but John, for example, died via execution and John was sent to exile because after several attempts to kill him failed, fear made the rulers send him away...much superstition, little understanding. And that is only the first believers....after John (who baptised with water) and Jesus our Lord, the Christ....and Stephen....not to mention the prophets.
Brother, your question saddens me, because no-one really wants to accept what they must do...it would mean turning their world upside down, and though many mean well, such well meaning isn't what we can base truth on.
It hurts to write this, and I've only just started to answer your question....
so, without going any further down that road, for now, perhaps it's best to look at just what Jesus taught, and Paul re-inforced.
I said it before, and again in case you missed it
LOVE
too simple? When living the life, it is the only law, the only rule, the only doctrine....too simple still? Look into the Scriptures and see ...it is written over and over. However, it is easily said...but not so easily done. Jesus spelt it out so that we could not miss it's application in every area of our life...the ten commandments, as they are known, revolve around it, and when asked about the greatest commandment, what did the Lord reply? The doing part was and is LOVE. Paul spent most of his letters trying to get through to everyone just what this doing word meant.
If the church practiced love today as it is meant to, then it would have all the order of the Church.
Paul even warned about the folly of looking for man's rendering of rules...to some he even refered to it as bewitching...again, stern words.
Can we accept Him? The Way, The Truth and The Life, The Word. Do we?
Remember after they thought they had lost their Master, how they stuck together in fear. Remember how they fasted and prayed, in one accord and tarried till He sent the promise of the Holy Ghost? From whence did they get their rules. They waited. And were blessed.
The flesh struggles a bit with waiting, and tends to organise things prior to receiving, and by so doing, hinder each other and one another and all others from the gift being made manifest in their presence. We sort it all out for God...whether He likes it or not.
I don't know how much this answers your question Disciple Mike...I have covered a lot in a little, with thin explanation to support what I have said, but I do recommend that you at least have another look at your Bible, as the believer that you are, seeking only after truth, and tell me what you think.
Now , just as a footnote, can I add that I understand fully the views so far shared here, and have had great joy in fellowship with members of various congregations....I have moved several thousand miles in a few stages since becoming a Christian and so the various comes into being (in small communities/townships-rural one must fellowship with a smaller choice of believers) and have nothing but thanks to the Lord for the wonderful support and love that has been shared with me and my family. I do not suggest that you or anyone else reject anyone who loves Jesus. We are members of His body.
Bless you,
Br. Bear.
If I may first point out that the Church is the Body of Christ, made up of members, like you and me, all members of His Church, and as in the days of Paul who you quote, there were congregations in the various towns, villages and cities.
We see today things that ought not be.
1 Corinthians 1:10.... Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
and....
Psalm 133:1.... Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!
Now, since you are referring to those days of Paul....known as the early church...we need to look at how order was placed and kept.
Many times there is reference to the manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit. We even have occasion of a couple dishonouring God and that resulted in two carcases being dragged away. Stern words.
Remember that these folks were living and fellowshipping in the power of the Spirit. We don't see this happening much today, and for those who consider themselves to be doing such, let us remember that persecution was part of the deal...something we seem to avoid somehow...so something is missing...you see, the truth MUST be rejected and violently for Scripture to be fulfilled...no-one really wants to accept this let alone believe it, hoping in rapture rather than the return...the glorious return of Jesus, and He was quite clear about it when He (orally) spoke about it, and history records just such opposition....all but John, for example, died via execution and John was sent to exile because after several attempts to kill him failed, fear made the rulers send him away...much superstition, little understanding. And that is only the first believers....after John (who baptised with water) and Jesus our Lord, the Christ....and Stephen....not to mention the prophets.
Brother, your question saddens me, because no-one really wants to accept what they must do...it would mean turning their world upside down, and though many mean well, such well meaning isn't what we can base truth on.
It hurts to write this, and I've only just started to answer your question....
so, without going any further down that road, for now, perhaps it's best to look at just what Jesus taught, and Paul re-inforced.
I said it before, and again in case you missed it
LOVE
too simple? When living the life, it is the only law, the only rule, the only doctrine....too simple still? Look into the Scriptures and see ...it is written over and over. However, it is easily said...but not so easily done. Jesus spelt it out so that we could not miss it's application in every area of our life...the ten commandments, as they are known, revolve around it, and when asked about the greatest commandment, what did the Lord reply? The doing part was and is LOVE. Paul spent most of his letters trying to get through to everyone just what this doing word meant.
If the church practiced love today as it is meant to, then it would have all the order of the Church.
Paul even warned about the folly of looking for man's rendering of rules...to some he even refered to it as bewitching...again, stern words.
Can we accept Him? The Way, The Truth and The Life, The Word. Do we?
Remember after they thought they had lost their Master, how they stuck together in fear. Remember how they fasted and prayed, in one accord and tarried till He sent the promise of the Holy Ghost? From whence did they get their rules. They waited. And were blessed.
The flesh struggles a bit with waiting, and tends to organise things prior to receiving, and by so doing, hinder each other and one another and all others from the gift being made manifest in their presence. We sort it all out for God...whether He likes it or not.
I don't know how much this answers your question Disciple Mike...I have covered a lot in a little, with thin explanation to support what I have said, but I do recommend that you at least have another look at your Bible, as the believer that you are, seeking only after truth, and tell me what you think.
Now , just as a footnote, can I add that I understand fully the views so far shared here, and have had great joy in fellowship with members of various congregations....I have moved several thousand miles in a few stages since becoming a Christian and so the various comes into being (in small communities/townships-rural one must fellowship with a smaller choice of believers) and have nothing but thanks to the Lord for the wonderful support and love that has been shared with me and my family. I do not suggest that you or anyone else reject anyone who loves Jesus. We are members of His body.
Bless you,
Br. Bear.
Disciple Mike
Member
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2007
- Messages
- 16
Mr. Bear,,
I think I understand what you said. I am not an educated person so you must bear with me(No pune intended) I just have a ninth grade education and bairly that. You can probably tell by my writing..lol... It seems like your saying those verses dont apply to us, that was for the early church. Is that what you mean?
I deffently understand the Love thing, God is Love!!! Anything done in Love must be of God...
you said:
"LOVE
too simple? When living the life, it is the only law, the only rule, the only doctrine....too simple still? Look into the Scriptures and see ...it is written over and over."
Yes, I agree but why then so much scripture, if it is that simple? I just dont get some of my friends, they say they dont need to go to church, they say that they just need to read the bible, and do bible studies once a week and fellowship here and there. And all that God wants us to know is in the bible. I guess its called sola scripture... But if you add up all the time they spend with God in a weeks time it amounts up to a couple of hours at best. Then I look at how much time they spend with there familys in aweek and I cant help think of Gods First Commandment. Love your God with ALL your Heart , with ALL your Mind and with ALL your strength... They say they do but shouldnt it be the opposite. Shouldnt they worship everyday, pray on everything always wait for an answer? When I talk to most of them they tell me they try, but they call me religious because I go to church everyday and do everything from the smallest task like going to the bathroom to the largest task with praise and prayer. They say I am a fanatic and I need more balance. It seems to me that if it was about a relationship only then wouldnt they want to spend every second of the day with Jesus, In mind, thought and deed? They say they try, but that is why I am a fanatic because if I wasnt I would just be lukewarm, I fear becoming lukewarm....
When I attend church and worship, all I do is think about God, pray to God and listen to God, un-interupted. Then all I do is think about God the rest of the day and serve my brothers in Love, In action, and in deeds. I pray without ceasing in everything, and whether I am receiving wisdom or delivering wisdom its pure and all Love. I have pictures everywere and books everywere and people say that is to much, but these pictures and books make me think about God all the time. Everywere I look I see God and that shows me How God is in everything. And this scripture comes to mind, as Im typing this:
John20;30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
John21;25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
So it makes me beleive that God has much more to give me then just what is in the bible. And expects me to seek Him in everything. And it makes me think that I should seek these other things God taught the disciples which were not written....
Do you see what im saying? Sorry for rambling
Peace be with You....
I think I understand what you said. I am not an educated person so you must bear with me(No pune intended) I just have a ninth grade education and bairly that. You can probably tell by my writing..lol... It seems like your saying those verses dont apply to us, that was for the early church. Is that what you mean?
I deffently understand the Love thing, God is Love!!! Anything done in Love must be of God...
you said:
"LOVE
too simple? When living the life, it is the only law, the only rule, the only doctrine....too simple still? Look into the Scriptures and see ...it is written over and over."
Yes, I agree but why then so much scripture, if it is that simple? I just dont get some of my friends, they say they dont need to go to church, they say that they just need to read the bible, and do bible studies once a week and fellowship here and there. And all that God wants us to know is in the bible. I guess its called sola scripture... But if you add up all the time they spend with God in a weeks time it amounts up to a couple of hours at best. Then I look at how much time they spend with there familys in aweek and I cant help think of Gods First Commandment. Love your God with ALL your Heart , with ALL your Mind and with ALL your strength... They say they do but shouldnt it be the opposite. Shouldnt they worship everyday, pray on everything always wait for an answer? When I talk to most of them they tell me they try, but they call me religious because I go to church everyday and do everything from the smallest task like going to the bathroom to the largest task with praise and prayer. They say I am a fanatic and I need more balance. It seems to me that if it was about a relationship only then wouldnt they want to spend every second of the day with Jesus, In mind, thought and deed? They say they try, but that is why I am a fanatic because if I wasnt I would just be lukewarm, I fear becoming lukewarm....
When I attend church and worship, all I do is think about God, pray to God and listen to God, un-interupted. Then all I do is think about God the rest of the day and serve my brothers in Love, In action, and in deeds. I pray without ceasing in everything, and whether I am receiving wisdom or delivering wisdom its pure and all Love. I have pictures everywere and books everywere and people say that is to much, but these pictures and books make me think about God all the time. Everywere I look I see God and that shows me How God is in everything. And this scripture comes to mind, as Im typing this:
John20;30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
John21;25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
So it makes me beleive that God has much more to give me then just what is in the bible. And expects me to seek Him in everything. And it makes me think that I should seek these other things God taught the disciples which were not written....
Do you see what im saying? Sorry for rambling
Peace be with You....
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2006
- Messages
- 18,105
Dear brother
It seems to me you are doing what God told us to do.
I also know that he told us to think on things that are pure holy etc. Philippians 4.8 so you are doing this and I am called religious by people but I soon correct that by saying I am not religious. I have a personal relationship with Jesus.
God bless you.
LLJ :rainbow: :rose:
It seems to me you are doing what God told us to do.
I also know that he told us to think on things that are pure holy etc. Philippians 4.8 so you are doing this and I am called religious by people but I soon correct that by saying I am not religious. I have a personal relationship with Jesus.
God bless you.
LLJ
:rainbow: :rose:Mike
The question is not whether one is looking to Jesus in all that one does. That is between you and the Lord.
It is the erroneous tag of “religious” that hinders the others that call you religious. The Life that God gives is not a religion, it is eternal Life. I am not saying don’t attend a Spirit filled church. But if you are, most likely they will tell you they are a religion or at lest the church itself is registered with the Gov. as such. Therefore anyone has the right, believer or not, to call that church a religion. Museums are religious and they do not follow Jesus. Religion seeks servants, and the Lord Jesus seeks friends, brothers, and sisters, that seek and do the Father’s Will.
The question is not whether one is looking to Jesus in all that one does. That is between you and the Lord.
It is the erroneous tag of “religious” that hinders the others that call you religious. The Life that God gives is not a religion, it is eternal Life. I am not saying don’t attend a Spirit filled church. But if you are, most likely they will tell you they are a religion or at lest the church itself is registered with the Gov. as such. Therefore anyone has the right, believer or not, to call that church a religion. Museums are religious and they do not follow Jesus. Religion seeks servants, and the Lord Jesus seeks friends, brothers, and sisters, that seek and do the Father’s Will.
Disciple Mike
Member
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2007
- Messages
- 16
First I just wanted to say Hi and thank you for your reply...
When I look up the word Religion I get this:
religion1 [rəˈlidʒən] noun
a belief in, or the worship of, a god or gods
(Isnt that what we are doing, or suppose to do?)
you said:
"Religion seeks servants, and the Lord Jesus seeks friends, brothers, and sisters, that seek and do the Father’s Will."
I think your right that Jesus wants to be our friend and our brother, but He also wants to be our King and Lord. And He tells us that He wants us to serve as well. So shouldnt it be both, a relationship with religion?
Jn 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
Im just not sure why the word religion or religious is considered such a bad thing. Doesnt God judge the heart? and just because some religious people gave the word a bad name why should we allow them to take away the true meaning of the name?
I dont know, it just dont seem right when I read these scriptures I have been posting, but maybe I am wrong, It wont be the first time..lol...
Peace''''
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2004
- Messages
- 17,077
Brother Mike,
Religion is nothing, not important. Relationship is. Relationship with Jesus is simply acknowledging who Jesus is [Son of GOD], praying in His name and being sincere with GOD. Prayer is actually conversation with GOD, in Jesus' name. Religion and tradition are not necessarily the same things. Religions have their traditions, but it does not mean that religion itself is good when holding it up to the Scripture you quoted.
GOD just wants to have a relationship with us, plain and simple as that. He does not care for us to do anything (generally speaking that is) but come as we are. He does not care for us to be fancy, religious, traditional, etc.
You know, when GOD created this world He did so because He wanted a family. That's actually a logic thing for one to figure out anyway. Therefore, relationship in family is important as we all know. Do families need 'religion' to love each other and have a relationship? No. Just pure love.
Religion is nothing, not important. Relationship is. Relationship with Jesus is simply acknowledging who Jesus is [Son of GOD], praying in His name and being sincere with GOD. Prayer is actually conversation with GOD, in Jesus' name. Religion and tradition are not necessarily the same things. Religions have their traditions, but it does not mean that religion itself is good when holding it up to the Scripture you quoted.
GOD just wants to have a relationship with us, plain and simple as that. He does not care for us to do anything (generally speaking that is) but come as we are. He does not care for us to be fancy, religious, traditional, etc.
You know, when GOD created this world He did so because He wanted a family. That's actually a logic thing for one to figure out anyway. Therefore, relationship in family is important as we all know. Do families need 'religion' to love each other and have a relationship? No. Just pure love.
