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Question for all please quick answer and no debate :)

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Active
@JesusIs4Me,
Everything the disciple wrote they did not understand; believers today understands more than they did because knowledge has increased. The bible is an historical written account of what the disciples spoke - whether wrong or right. This was the same with the old covenant believers. Job said, The Lord gives and The Lord takes away. We know this is "not true" when it comes to family or anything else God gives; they are gifts (Jam. 1:17). Job was speaking about what Satan robbed him of. Yes - we know The Lord allowed it, but God did not take anything away from Job. This is how believer speak today.

Job 1:21
And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Many things said by the early church was said and documented as history. What believers must remember above all else is the "Principle" of scripture. God teaches His word is a mystery and only the Spirit can give the understanding of what is written. The Spirit of God's foundation of understanding is the "principles of scripture. GOD'S word does not contradict itself.

None of the scriptures you presented has to do with the principles of what Jesus came and accomplished.
 
Active
@Sue,
It's normal to stand in a comfortable place because it feels safe. What I've proved is what is being taught has no foundation, because what Jesus came and did is being rejected. Jesus said He came to take away sin - this is not believed.
 
Loyal
every believers I know finds sin repulsive, if sin does not bother you how can you be a believer, as it is what separates us from God ? (this is a general statement not aimed at anyone)

2 Corinthians 7:10
Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation without regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

2 Corinthians 7:9
And now I rejoice, not because you were made sorrowful, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you felt the sorrow that God had intended, and so were not harmed in any way by us.

Psalm 38:18
17For I am ready to fall, and my pain is ever with me. 18Yes, I confess my iniquity; I am troubled by my sin.
 
Active
@Sue,
It's normal to stand in a comfortable place because it feels safe. What I've proved is what is being taught has no foundation, because what Jesus came and did is being rejected. Jesus said He came to take away sin - this is not believed.


It's not believed because Many churches don't teach Bible any more. Our Real foundation is in Jesus Christ -- His death, burial and bodily resurrection. We have spiritual life Only through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. And Our choice to accept or reject that.
 
Member
I'm in my late 60's -- mind if I ask you Why? You're welcome to start a private conversation with me, if you want to. I like conversation :smile:
Don't know how to start a private conversation, but to answer your question, at least in part, just let me say by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, I came to believe, after many years of turmoil and condemnation, that His death and resurrection truly did free me from the penalty of sin. I'm still very conscious when I miss the mark, but "there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus".
 
Active
@ Tessie -- at the very top of this page at the right -- there is a Big Red "S" in the middle of a large circle -- click into that.

You're right on track with that. :smile:
 
Active
Don't know how to start a private conversation, but to answer your question, at least in part, just let me say by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, I came to believe, after many years of turmoil and condemnation, that His death and resurrection truly did free me from the penalty of sin. I'm still very conscious when I miss the mark, but "there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus".
I know where you are coming from... having been freed from a guilt-ridden, never-measuring-up "Christian" life where I wondered if I could ever be victorious (guilt is a real damper to Christian courage and victory, creating a vicious cycle...). A good relationship with God just wasn't for me, I thought.

But then over time Jesus showed me his amazing grace and how he loves me unconditionally and is always ready to forgive. This doesn't give me a license to sin but rather frees me to live for him and not be dragged down by the lies of the accuser.

EDIT: I would describe my Christian walk as gaining consciousness of sin or areas in need of sanctification, but not living in guilt and condemnation.
 
Loyal
The closer I get to God in my walk of faith, the MORE conscious of sin I become.

Do you people find this to be true in your walk?? YES OR NO

thanks
Dave it's called growth according to the Father's Plan.

That's what I was saying some time back and got ridiculed by those you have to be perfect to be saved.

Growth brings deeper levels in Christ and as we get deeper in Christ , things we never recognized as wrong (sin) begin to be seen.

Think of it this way.
Its like using a 10 cent flashlight over a 50 dollar flashlight. The Brighter the Light the more that is seen.

Blessings and Love in Christ!!
 
Active
@Sue D.
It's not believed because Many churches don't teach Bible any more. Our Real foundation is in Jesus Christ -- His death, burial and bodily resurrection. We have spiritual life Only through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. And Our choice to accept or reject that.
True... But I'm not just talking about the churches, I'm talking about people's interpretation of the bible period concerning Christ's death and ressurection. Jesus died unto sin once and told believers to believe the same. Believers are to confess they died unto sin once; but they are taught to speak contrary to what the Spirit teaches and reject Romans 6:10 and 11. Either Jesus did or He didn't cancel sin (Heb. 9:26). All the principle foundation of scripture teaches He did. Everyone speaking and teaching against what Christ has done is the problem in the Church because they are deceiving the babes coming up. Taking away sin is not the same as talking away the punishment of sin.
 
Active
The closer I get to God in my walk of faith, the MORE conscious of sin I become.

Do you people find this to be true in your walk?? YES OR NO

thanks
YES.

Love relationship 101 = Everyday one becomes more aware of what pleases and displeases the one we love.

Since God is perfect, all that displeases Him is sin.

As we grow we become guilty of sins we were / could never be guilty of beforehand.
 
Active
@KingJ -- "As we grow we become more 'aware' of sins we're guilty of that we'd not been 'aware' of before. The Holy Spirit is very good at letting us know when we've messed-up / sinned. :smile:
 
Active
@JesusIs4Me,
Everything the disciple wrote they did not understand; believers today understands more than they did because knowledge has increased. The bible is an historical written account of what the disciples spoke - whether wrong or right.
The disciples understood what was written since they were led by the Holy Spirit to write it.

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Peter validated Paul's writings as scripture;

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

More importantly, Jesus validated the sayings of His disciples as scripture; John 15:20 KJV

John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

Jesus prophesied that the Father said there will be the need to discern who kept His words from those that did not; John 14:23-24 KJV

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Jesus validated scripture as truth;

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

This is what Jesus said to His disciples, testifying that they had ears to hear and understood His sayings.

Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. 17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

So your judgment that His disciples did not understand anything they had written is not true. You can make a case for then not always understanding His sayings before they had written them down for the times they were with Him on earth before His crucifixion, but not at the time they were writing since it was done as led by the Holy Ghost. It would be pointless for them not to understand it and yet we do today? Hardly. More like the other way around.

This was the same with the old covenant believers. Job said, The Lord gives and The Lord takes away. We know this is "not true" when it comes to family or anything else God gives; they are gifts (Jam. 1:17). Job was speaking about what Satan robbed him of. Yes - we know The Lord allowed it, but God did not take anything away from Job. This is how believer speak today.

Job 1:21
And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Many things said by the early church was said and documented as history. What believers must remember above all else is the "Principle" of scripture. God teaches His word is a mystery and only the Spirit can give the understanding of what is written. The Spirit of God's foundation of understanding is the "principles of scripture. GOD'S word does not contradict itself.
I believe you are applying His words NOT rightly dividing the word of truth when you are not considering everything that was written that can easily reprove your "conclusions" from your selected readings. That conclusion cannot be truth if it does not line up with the truths in other scripture in the N.T.

None of the scriptures you presented has to do with the principles of what Jesus came and accomplished.
Those scriptures are to be applied to people that are already believers in Jesus Christ since it is addressing our walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son for how His blood cleanses us presently of all sins. It is when we are not walking in the light and saying we have not sinned, is where a saved believer is lying of his need for forgiveness from Christ Jesus for his sins.

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

All those that seek to abide in Him and His words, should ask Him for help to not hold to any "conclusion" from scripture that does not necessarily line up with the rest of scripture for those that would live as His disciples.

What you preach is about that foundation which can never be removed that was laid by Jesus Christ; but that does not mean a believer cannot sow to the works of the flesh on that foundation, defiling the temple of God with sins for why we need His daily in helping us to walk in the light and in fellowship with the Father & the Son in laying aside every weight AND SIN in running that race in living as His disciple in that reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ.
 
Active
@JesusIs4Me,
Scripture teaches the Spirit inspired the disciples and scribes to write and speak certain things (2Ti. 3:16). They didn't understand everything they spoke. Paul made this clear when he was caught up in a vision. Peter also brought that understanding out in the scripture you quoted in 2Pet. 3:15. Paul said in Romans 7:18 he didn't understand when he said he didn't know how to do a particular thing.

Romans 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

2 Corinthians 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell:God knoweth:wink: such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2 Corinthians 12:4
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
 
Active
@JesusIs4Me,
Scripture teaches the Spirit inspired the disciples and scribes to write and speak certain things (2Ti. 3:16). They didn't understand everything they spoke.
The latter part of your quote in bold and underlined is not substantiated by that reference in 2 Timothy 3:16

Paul made this clear when he was caught up in a vision.
Paul had two visions that I am now aware of by a recent search at Bible gateway and that was in Acts 16:9 and Acts 18:9 but in both incidents, Paul plainly understood the two visions.

Peter also brought that understanding out in the scripture you quoted in 2Pet. 3:15.
I fail to see the relevance of your reference below for the point you are trying to make about Paul as something brought out as understanding made possible by Peter since wisdom comes from the Lord.

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

Paul said in Romans 7:18 he didn't understand when he said he didn't know how to do a particular thing.

Romans 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Paul was talking about how he was before as Saul under the law. You need to reread that whole chapter as it leads into the 8th chapter in seeing how Paul is as Paul in the 8th chapter.

2 Corinthians 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell:God knoweth:wink: such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2 Corinthians 12:4
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
If this was the "vision" that you was talking about that Paul did not know, then reread that again because Paul was speaking of a man he knew that had experienced being taken up to third Heaven where Paradise is now located, as it is about how he was taken is what he did not know. If you want to know who he was talking about for why it is not lawful for any man to utter is the apostle John that was taken up to the third Heaven for which he had testified and written down as the Book of Revelations. Paul did not know if he was taken literally up to Heaven or if his spirit was taken up there. I don't think any one can answer that question when they read the Book of Revelation either on how he was taken up.

So that is not the same thing as not understanding the scripture that was written by them in the N.T. How can they know what edifies others if they are not edified by the scriptures themselves? What would be the point for that for God to have it happen that way that as you seem to imply, only in recent times we are living in that with knowledge increase, we now know? Here is scripture that refutes such sentiments of the knowledge of the times we live in now or any time.

1 Corinthians 1: 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Si they knew the truth as inspired by the Holy Spirit to write in the N.T.
 
Active
@JesusIs4Me,
I've learned it's a waste of time to get into these long drawn-out posts. They understood some things, as I've said, but they didn't understand all that the Spirit showed them. To know something is to understand it, to understand something is to do. Believers hear what the Spirit is saying, but we don't understand it all; this is why we don't do it. If we understood perfection we would be it. God said He will deliver us little by little. As we see, we understand.

Romans 7:15
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Romans 7:16
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Romans 7:17
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

This is after Paul's conversions. Paul didn't understand Satan tempting him until after He was born again. Paul said, it not him that's making himself feel the way he does, but Satan (who is sin) causing him the problems. Paul could not understand this except by Christ's teaching after his conversion; not before.
 
Active
@JesusIs4Me,
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The scriptures can profit a person void of understanding, but it doesn't mean a person will understand all that the Spirit is speaking. If a person understands, it will reflect in their walk. All believers have the potiential to become perfect in their walk of love, but not perfect in knowledge in this life.

2 Timothy 3:17
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
 

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