Psychology vs. Christianity

[Katzie]

Dear Sister Katzie, i also can see where you are coming from. in fact i saw a great mother and women of faith.

i want to say God has allowed mankind to learn about many medical tools, and He sometimes uses medicine to heal. (may be some one could help with bible verses here)

please don't misunderstand me, i am not against any kind of medication for mentally ill people. But against depressions caused by the root of sin. the solution for this is not antidepressant.


God bless

Thank you Abigya!!!!
I absolutely agree with you 100% that there is no medication to cure depression that is caused by sin. When I explained that I had gone through a very deep dark depression and the Lord lifted me out of it, one of the things I had to realize first was that I was not completely accepting my circumstances in life. I kept trying to find a way out, I would pray for the Lord to send me a Christian Husband to help me and if not that then Christian friends who could give me some assistance. I had to finally realize that the Lord wanted me to completely accept my situation for what it was and that HE would be the one to help me through everything and also that I did not have to solve every single problem all at once. It was then that I felt lifted out of my depression and it is only when I start to get anxious again and WORRY that I start to feel depressed. So, whenever I feel these things, I quickly go to prayer and his Word!!!

Praise God for always being there for us even we are too stubborn to realize HE is there!!!!

One day at a time I look to the Lord to give me the grace and strength I need for that day!!!!

Abigya - thank you also for posting all of those Scripture references. They will be of great assistance to use when the enemy would like to tell me I can't handle all that I have on my plate or I can't function feeling as sick as I do, which is everyday. Praise God I have more scripture to fight him with. I had been using "Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength, they shall mount up with wings of Eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint."

Many Blessings!!!!

 

[Laudite]

CHRISTIANITY VERSUS PSYCHOLOGY

In the last days "people will be lovers of themselves" so the Bible warns us in 2 Timothy 3:2. I wonder how many Christian churches realize that they might be helping to fulfill this prophecy. One of the biggest threats to Christ's church today is the religion of psychology. I'm probably going to step on more than a few toes here, but yes, you heard me right. Psychology is indeed a religion and it is very destructive to the Word of God. While psychology has infiltrated our American Culture, the worst tragedy is its infiltration of the Christian church where it has been synthesized with the teachings of the Bible. To synthesize psychology with the Bible is like putting together devil-worship and Christianity. It is an oxymoron of the highest sort and yet many Christian churches have done just that.


Psychology is a religion based on man's self-centered wisdom whereas true Christianity believes in the sufficiency of God's Word. As our nation is becoming increasingly secularized, even many Christians are buying into thinking that religion is something separate from their everyday lives. Forgetting that Christianity is a complete way of life, Christians no longer believe that all the wisdom they need for a fruitful life has been given to them in the Bible by God Almighty Himself. Instead they turn to the human experts and psychology.

Whoa there now! Psychology is a religion? In what sense? I'm pretty sure it's the study of thought patterns and makes no epistomologic or cosmic claims that define religion. Likewise, the bible does not describe how thought works as Psychology does. Psychology can't and doesn't tell you how to find meaning in life or salvation at its end.

Looking at the fathers of psychology and its anti-Christian roots should be enough to prove that Christians should take no part in its practice.

That's what you call an ad hominem. I've published work in the field of communications- I also think that Linken Park is really terrible music. That doesn't make my ideas about communicative ethics anti-linkin park. Also- I note that the author assumes that psychology aims to 'change people' which is a lie by overgeneralization.

With the decline of true religion came the rise in psychology. Since its birth in the 1850's, Americans can't seem to get enough therapy. Even though we are the most prosperous nation on earth people wonder why they are unhappy and how they can improve their lives. Instead of opening their Bibles, they are turning to psychology which offers the latest theories and treatments that try to explain to us why we think, feel and act the way we do according to man's theories not biblical truths about the nature of man.

Again, 'nature of man' is a deceptively general term. Sure, there's biblical truth about sin, redemption, salvation etc. Perhaps I missed the part where Paul told the church at Corinth about his divine revelation on the cause of debilitating fear of open spaces.

While people who focus on others tend to have more joy and peace of mind, man's true nature is one of sinfulness and selfishness and it is that very nature that causes his unhappiness. Those who focus on themselves are never happy or content because they are always striving for something better - a better car, house, mate, better body, more money etc. - but it is never enough. Most problems tend to be a direct result of self-focus, and yet that is what psychology tells us to focus on - ourselves. It teaches that our unhappiness comes from OUR unmet needs. It's about how WE feel, about OUR plans and OUR desires.

I have to say it doesn't sound like the author knows much about psychology. No school of psychology says you can be happy through getting something better. It's worth pointing out that helping others fulfills basic human needs. The difference between desires and needs is one of the cornerstones of psychology- the authors conflation of the two in psychology would seem to argue for ignorance.

Most psychological thinking believes people are basically good and if we just look inside ourselves we can through our own self-effort improve our lives without God. But God's word says, "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" Jeremiah 17:9. Psychology also teaches that we are victims of our past and our problems stem from people and environments that negatively influenced us in the past. In other words psychology believes our past controls our present, but there was no one in Adam and Eve's past and they had a perfect environment. Their problem was that they trusted their deceitful hearts instead of God. Sin was the cause of their misery.

First, psychology explicitly rejects questions like the basic nature of humanity. Second- the Jeremiah quotation proves the misapplication of scope. Psychology can help you feel better and deal with certain problems- not provide direction and meaning. Does psychology claim to make you "7 "But blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD, whose confidence is in him.
8 He will be like a tree planted by the water that sends out its roots by the stream. It does not fear when heat comes; its leaves are always green. It has no worries in a year of drought and never fails to bear fruit." (Jeremiah 17) Of course it doesn't.

Look at the misery in our government schools since they kicked out God and began heavily promoting psychology...

If that was coherent or had a point, I missed it. Schools... are... schools. not mental health clinics.

Why aren't we being told the truth about psychology? Because even though psychology doesn't work, there are big bucks in this industry. According to "Psychology Debunked" by Lisa and Ryan Bazler, America has gone from 14 percent of our population having received psychological services in the 1960's to 80 percent at the start of the 21st century. We pay more than $17 billion a year for psychological therapies, which contributes to a $69 billion mental health industry. That industry continues to grow at an annual rate of 7 percent. I am not saying that there are not therapists out there who mean well. I would bet that most took on a career in therapy because they wanted to help people, but that doesn't change the truth. The root cause of all of our problems is SIN. The only real answer is in the Bible and it is not the gushy gospel that is being preached in many Christian churches.

sigh... yes, capitalism rewards time intensive skills. And I'd venture that there's been a very large redefinition of psychological services since the 60's. And honestly, do you think the 60's had adequate psychological services? The US Army sure doesn't think so, and I bet if you asked vietnam vets they'd have a pretty strong opinion about that too.

The many thousands of churches that are following the feel good self-esteem building techniques of the church growth movement are promoting throughout the country, are following the anti-Christian practice of psychology. While it may make people feel good for a while and get their butts in the seats on Sunday morning, it is not bringing them the true message of salvation. It is also not equipping them to handle real life. They will never truly know or understand the peace and joy that comes with being a follower of Christ unless they understand the truthfulness of their sinful nature.

Self esteem is anti-Christian? I seem to remember something about
But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. Luke 2:10
and that

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance;
perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us. Romans 5:1-5

There may come a time when you or your family will need intervention by a third party, but if and when that time comes, the best thing to do is to save yourself that therapist's fee and see a trusted friend or pastor who has a personal interest in your well being. Real biblical counseling should be free. The best remedy here on earth is for the church to go back to preaching the whole counsel of God and when someone from your congregation needs help in their personal life, they need biblical advice, not psychology. The root cause of all of our problems is SIN and it seems to be the one thing that most churches are afraid to preach on today.


© 2004 Debbie O'Hara - All Rights Reserved

If you are sad, if you greive, if you despair, this is excelent advice. If you have a paralyzing fear of automobiles or frequently have panic attacks, I'm not sure what end this would serve. I can't say that the root cause of all problems is sin except in the most generally metaphysical sense. Is cancer caused by sin? how about birth defects? Does not the bible tell us that Job was a good man, yet suffered terribly? Does not Ecclesiastes teach that it is man's lot to suffer and die? Perhaps there is call for a theodicy thread

 

[Laudite]

sister abigya, your biblical examples of 'depression' appear to conflate depression with sadness, which it is not. In fact, not all sufferers of depression would describe themselves as sad. According to the DSM IV, depression is diagnosepd when five of the following symptoms are present in the same 2 week period and are not accounted for by bereavement or accompanied by other mental illness.


(1) depressed mood most of the day, nearly every day, as indicated by either subjective report (e.g., feels sad or empty) or observation made by others (e.g., appears tearful). Note: In children and adolescents, can be irritable mood.

(2) markedly diminished interest or pleasure in all, or almost all, activities most of the day, nearly every day (as indicated by either subjective account or observation made by others)

(3) significant weight loss when not dieting or weight gain (e.g., a change of more than 5% of body weight in a month), or decrease or increase in appetite nearly every day. Note: In children, consider failure to make expected weight gains.

(4) insomnia or hypersomnia nearly every day

(5) psychomotor agitation or retardation nearly every day (observable by others, not merely subjective feelings of restlessness or being slowed down)

(6) fatigue or loss of energy nearly every day

(7) feelings of worthlessness or excessive or inappropriate guilt (which may be delusional) nearly every day (not merely self-reproach or guilt about being sick)

(8) diminished ability to think or concentrate, or indecisiveness, nearly every day (either by subjective account or as observed by others)

(9) recurrent thoughts of death (not just fear of dying), recurrent suicidal ideation without a specific plan, or a suicide attempt or a specific plan for committing suicide

 

[abigya]

Whoa there now! Psychology is a religion? In what sense? I'm pretty sure it's the study of thought patterns and makes no epistomologic or cosmic claims that define religion. Likewise, the bible does not describe how thought works as Psychology does. Psychology can't and doesn't tell you how to find meaning in life or salvation at its end.


That's what you call an ad hominem. I've published work in the field of communications- I also think that Linken Park is really terrible music. That doesn't make my ideas about communicative ethics anti-linkin park. Also- I note that the author assumes that psychology aims to 'change people' which is a lie by overgeneralization.


Again, 'nature of man' is a deceptively general term. Sure, there's biblical truth about sin, redemption, salvation etc. Perhaps I missed the part where Paul told the church at Corinth about his divine revelation on the cause of debilitating fear of open spaces.

I have to say it doesn't sound like the author knows much about psychology. No school of psychology says you can be happy through getting something better. It's worth pointing out that helping others fulfills basic human needs. The difference between desires and needs is one of the cornerstones of psychology- the authors conflation of the two in psychology would seem to argue for ignorance.


First, psychology explicitly rejects questions like the basic nature of humanity. Second- the Jeremiah quotation proves the misapplication of scope. Psychology can help you feel better and deal with certain problems- not provide direction and meaning. Does psychology claim to make you "7 "But blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD, whose confidence is in him.
8 He will be like a tree planted by the water that sends out its roots by the stream. It does not fear when heat comes; its leaves are always green. It has no worries in a year of drought and never fails to bear fruit." (Jeremiah 17) Of course it doesn't.


If that was coherent or had a point, I missed it. Schools... are... schools. not mental health clinics.

sigh... yes, capitalism rewards time intensive skills. And I'd venture that there's been a very large redefinition of psychological services since the 60's. And honestly, do you think the 60's had adequate psychological services? The US Army sure doesn't think so, and I bet if you asked vietnam vets they'd have a pretty strong opinion about that too.

Self esteem is anti-Christian? I seem to remember something about
But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. Luke 2:10
and that

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance;
perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us. Romans 5:1-5





If you are sad, if you greive, if you despair, this is excelent advice. If you have a paralyzing fear of automobiles or frequently have panic attacks, I'm not sure what end this would serve. I can't say that the root cause of all problems is sin except in the most generally metaphysical sense. Is cancer caused by sin? how about birth defects? Does not the bible tell us that Job was a good man, yet suffered terribly? Does not Ecclesiastes teach that it is man's lot to suffer and die? Perhaps there is call for a theodicy thread

Whoa there now! Psychology is a religion? In what sense? I'm pretty sure it's the study of thought patterns and makes no epistomologic or cosmic claims that define religion. Likewise, the bible does not describe how thought works as Psychology does. Psychology can't and doesn't tell you how to find meaning in life or salvation at its end.

how do you define Religion?

Likewise, the bible does not describe how thought works as Psychology does.

there are a lot of scriptures telling us about our thought life.

I can't say that the root cause of all problems is sin except in the most generally metaphysical sense. Is cancer caused by sin? how about birth defects? Does not the bible tell us that Job was a good man, yet suffered terribly? Does not Ecclesiastes teach that it is man's lot to suffer and die? Perhaps there is call for a theodicy thread

?

 

[abigya]

sister abigya, your biblical examples of 'depression' appear to conflate depression with sadness, which it is not. In fact, not all sufferers of depression would describe themselves as sad. According to the DSM IV, depression is diagnosepd when five of the following symptoms are present in the same 2 week period and are not accounted for by bereavement or accompanied by other mental illness.

Laudite, could you clarify , which verses are you quoting?

i am feeling you are raising different issue here and plus as you can see we are against the diagnosis given to people who are depressed (call it sad or depressed). so the points mentioned dose not apply here.

 

[Bunnytus]

Thank you. **applauding your rebuttal** :thumbs_up

Whoa there now! Psychology is a religion? In what sense? I'm pretty sure it's the study of thought patterns and makes no epistomologic or cosmic claims that define religion. Likewise, the bible does not describe how thought works as Psychology does. Psychology can't and doesn't tell you how to find meaning in life or salvation at its end.


That's what you call an ad hominem. I've published work in the field of communications- I also think that Linken Park is really terrible music. That doesn't make my ideas about communicative ethics anti-linkin park. Also- I note that the author assumes that psychology aims to 'change people' which is a lie by overgeneralization.


Again, 'nature of man' is a deceptively general term. Sure, there's biblical truth about sin, redemption, salvation etc. Perhaps I missed the part where Paul told the church at Corinth about his divine revelation on the cause of debilitating fear of open spaces.

I have to say it doesn't sound like the author knows much about psychology. No school of psychology says you can be happy through getting something better. It's worth pointing out that helping others fulfills basic human needs. The difference between desires and needs is one of the cornerstones of psychology- the authors conflation of the two in psychology would seem to argue for ignorance.


First, psychology explicitly rejects questions like the basic nature of humanity. Second- the Jeremiah quotation proves the misapplication of scope. Psychology can help you feel better and deal with certain problems- not provide direction and meaning. Does psychology claim to make you "7 "But blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD, whose confidence is in him.
8 He will be like a tree planted by the water that sends out its roots by the stream. It does not fear when heat comes; its leaves are always green. It has no worries in a year of drought and never fails to bear fruit." (Jeremiah 17) Of course it doesn't.


If that was coherent or had a point, I missed it. Schools... are... schools. not mental health clinics.

sigh... yes, capitalism rewards time intensive skills. And I'd venture that there's been a very large redefinition of psychological services since the 60's. And honestly, do you think the 60's had adequate psychological services? The US Army sure doesn't think so, and I bet if you asked vietnam vets they'd have a pretty strong opinion about that too.

Self esteem is anti-Christian? I seem to remember something about
But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. Luke 2:10
and that

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance;
perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us. Romans 5:1-5





If you are sad, if you greive, if you despair, this is excelent advice. If you have a paralyzing fear of automobiles or frequently have panic attacks, I'm not sure what end this would serve. I can't say that the root cause of all problems is sin except in the most generally metaphysical sense. Is cancer caused by sin? how about birth defects? Does not the bible tell us that Job was a good man, yet suffered terribly? Does not Ecclesiastes teach that it is man's lot to suffer and die? Perhaps there is call for a theodicy thread

 

[abigya]

It seems some one is applauding to your replay, but just wanted to come back and post some verses in reference to what you said.

the bible does not describe how thought works as Psychology does

Psalm 139:23-24
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me, and know my anxieties;
24 And see if there is any wicked way in me, And lead me in the way everlasting.

Philippians 4:7
And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:13
[ Be Holy ] Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 2:16
16 For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

proverbs 4:23
23 Guard your heart above all else,
for it determines the course of your life.


proverbs 12:25
25 Anxiety in the heart of man causes depression, But a good word makes it glad.


there are a lot more

 

[Bunnytus]

Another thing: Andrew Wommacks' article is based strictly on his opinion, thoughts and feelings. There is not true backing from the bible on the use of psychology is against Gods' will.

If you read through he sounds like an extremist; turning something so important and helpful into evil doing. This makes my stomach churn because I cannot believe God would want anyone preaching against something just because it does not DIRECTLY link them to Him or His Words.

And tell me this: how much money has Wommack made off his ministry and writings? Why is it okay for him to make money on what he offers (God's guidance) to the world through his sermons but wrong for psychologists to make a hard earned living? Could it be because less money is going into the churches and to ministries, such as his? (I am not being cruel or snide - I am being absolutely serious - think about it.)

God assisted in the evolvement of the medical field along with the major technological advancements; this in turn greatly assists researches/psychologists understand the inner workings of the brain and body, which in turn helps explains behaviors. If anyone claims to have 100% faith in God, they cannot for a second doubt this to be true. Faith means trusting that God has a hand in everything....and that his will for us is specific!

Words spoken by Jesus himself:
Mark 12:38-40
The HE said to them in His teaching, "Beware of the scribes, who desire to go around in long robes, love greetins in the marketplaces,
39. the best seats in the synagogues, and the best places at feasts,
40. who devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. These will receive greater condemnation."

What about all the great people who offer their (therapy/counselling) time for FREE? Not everyone seeks to GAIN financial rewards for their work - but it's apparent Wommack expects to be paid. I wonder how many times he passes the "collection plates" around? (Free money vs. hard earned money - what a way to go.)

I am sure this post will be misunderstood by some, but know this is another point of view, which I reserve the right to share. I feel many individuals spend more time attacking things, that are helpful, good, and obviously were created for a purpose by God, and not enough time receiving his words and REALLY trusting in everything HE does or creates.

EXODUS 4:10-12
10. Then Moses said to the Lord, "O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither before nor since You have spoken to Your servant; but I am slow of speech and slow of tongue."
11. So the Lord said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I, the Lord?
12. Now therefore, go, and I will be with your mouth and teach you what you shall say!
12 Now therefore, go, and I will be with your mouth and teach you what you shall say.



God bless all of you. Much love and strength in your journeys...

well It wasn't about me, it was about the scriptural truth not personal feelings and thoughts.

"and let the truth speak to us"

 

[Bunnytus]

Abigya,
These are wonderful but where does it point out that depression stems from sin or that it's sinful to seek help for depression? Are the direct scriptures stating that people of the bible were SINNERS because they were weak of heart, depressed, or other wise mentally ill?

It seems some one is applauding to your replay, but just wanted to come back and post some verses in reference to what you said.




Psalm 139:23-24
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me, and know my anxieties;
24 And see if there is any wicked way in me, And lead me in the way everlasting.

Philippians 4:7
And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:13
[ Be Holy ] Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 2:16
16 For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

proverbs 4:23
23 Guard your heart above all else,
for it determines the course of your life.


proverbs 12:25
25 Anxiety in the heart of man causes depression, But a good word makes it glad.


there are a lot more

 

[abigya]

Abigya,
These are wonderful but where does it point out that depression stems from sin or that it's sinful to seek help for depression? Are the direct scriptures stating that people of the bible were SINNERS because they were weak of heart, depressed, or other wise mentally ill?

yes there are scriptures, please refer the previous posts

 

[Br. Bear]

Would it be fair to say a wholesale turning away from faith, an abundance of mixed and therefore poor teachings, and the introduction of many new avenues to deal with social issues to fill the hole in social nucleus structure, could be at least part of the reason that there seems to be such an increase in the study and practice of psychology?

If you go back a generation or three, and look in dictionaries, you wont find many of the modern ailments.

I wonder how the people of the Old Testament coped with no such thing as bipolar, depression and psychologists?

Me thinks a turning back to the joy of the Lord would soon put an end to the psychology trade.

think about it.

 

[jiggyfly]

Me thinks a turning back to the joy of the Lord would soon put an end to the psychology trade.think about it.

I totally agree, so why then are so many who confess Christ on prozac?

I have seen many cases and some here at TJ where good intentioned believers try to help others suffering from depression by encouraging them with comforting words of how much they are loved, how important they are, how beautiful they are, and who they are in Christ and so on. But focusing on self is a very big part of the problem, looking at self in a negative way is still self-centered. To change the way they look at self from a negative to a positive way only changes their disposition from depression to pride.

Jesus said, "I have loved you even as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love. When you obey me, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father and remain in his love. I have told you this so that you will be filled with my joy. Yes, your joy will overflow! I command you to love each other in the same way that I love you." (John 15:9-12)

To be filled with Christ's joy we must be obedient to Christ and love others.

 

[Bunnytus]

Br. Bear,
With all my reasoning abilities, and psychology studies, I too have questioned this very thing. The answer can be as simple as people did not discuss mental health back in the day nor did were they educated as much as the researchers and doctors are now. With the advancement of technology, researchers have been able to uncover and explain a great deal about the brain; especially the deterioration of the brain - which leads into the disorders...and so forth.

Now - in conjuction with your thoughts it has always made me wonder why all of sudden there are so many people suffering from mental illness. I have presented this question quite a few times and in quite a few different ways to my professors. It was an interesting discussion each time. I guess for me the end result of those discussions has inspired me to search for the truth further and hopefully some day soon be able to not only help with helping individuals through their mental battles but help them find God.

I know there are many non-christians are struggling (along side of christians) with issues such as depression. We are not here to judge them or accuse them of sinning because they have either lost sight or was never really shown the right way, but to prescribe to them a purpose. We are to assist them in knowing God but more so taking that purpose and finding fulfillment; reap the benefits of God's love. We are here to help others...to love one another...and to live as God asked us to. I have believed for a very long time that fear, worry, doubt, (etc.), are the opposite of Faith. So..how do we assist those who cannot find the answers themselves; more so the non-believers without pressuring them or scaring them away? (I know - through faith in God. But you also need action along with Faith. God will deem what actions are just and worthy of his blessings; its our jobs to listen and trust in that)

I suppose the question should not be Why? but more so, "What do you need me to do Lord?"

Through our faith we can renew faith in others. Through our hard work and perserverance, the reward not only sets the best example possible but is truly beyond words.



Epheshians 4: 7-8
But to each one of us grace was given according to the measures of
Christ's gift. 8. Therefore He says:
"When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men."

Ephesians 4: 11-16
11.And He Himself gave some (gifts) to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers.
12. for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
13.till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
14. that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and
carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
15.but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head -Christ-
16. from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

Would it be fair to say a wholesale turning away from faith, an abundance of mixed and therefore poor teachings, and the introduction of many new avenues to deal with social issues to fill the hole in social nucleus structure, could be at least part of the reason that there seems to be such an increase in the study and practice of psychology?If you go back a generation or three, and look in dictionaries, you wont find many of the modern ailments. I wonder how the people of the Old Testament coped with no such thing as bipolar, depression and psychologists?Me thinks a turning back to the joy of the Lord would soon put an end to the psychology trade.think about it.

 

[Br. Bear]

Hi Bunnytus,

I began reading your reply and stopped for a few minutes.... listening.

I read on....

you touched on your answer that you seek. It is summed up in love.

One driving force behind the rise in pychologists is the growing demand for them. If nobody needed them, they would need each other to comfort each other!

But seriously, you will find that most people use pychology because they don't have someone else able... or more to the point, willing, to help.

Love is a pure Biblical topic, and for those who are asking for Scriptures over and again, may I point out that most of you are looking in the wrong place. You see, the lack of things of God... not because God lacks, but because people do not seek after Him with all their strength, minds, hearts and souls.... the lack of things of God leaves a vacuum in a soul.

Have you read anywhere about a conscience.... in the Scriptures? Look again and think some more about just how it all fits together. After all, that is what psychology is all about... fitting the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle of the brain together, so maybe a slower and perhaps wiser look at the Scriptures will reveal that the Lord has it all covered... without the help of psychologists, as we know them.

Now, I think I understand that you are linked in some way to the psychology profession, Bunnytus... is that correct?

I am in no way having a dig at you in the words I write. A spade is a spade, so do not take offence from what I write... please.

Getting back to love.

Might as well start at the top.... greater love has no man than this... than he lay down his life for his friend. This life we talk of.... what is it?
How many will give time to others....especially 'difficult' people, people who are having trouble that a few dollars won't fix... or a new car or pair of shoes... not even a bowl of food, or a drink. I mean people who are typical of psychology patients.
Before I go on.... and before anyone jumps to the wrong conclusion here, these folks I label, 'difficult' are not wrong or guilty.... the 'difficult' part is purely the condition of the people who do not offer themselves in love. It is not the people who are suffering.

Look at the Scriptures! Love what....? Suffereth long?

How many people are willing to help someone who needs time to the point of risking getting the sack from their jobs? Not many. How many will forfeit sleep? Not many....well maybe once or twice.... maybe.

Time is really valuable to people.... though the odd thing is, they nearly all waste so much or it.

It all stinks. People can't be bothered, so we see a rise in well meaning helpers in the form of psychologists.

I wonder how many who need a pyschologist have ever given much of their lives to help others. What about those who complain about others who just never seem to 'get over it' if they have a problem?

A lot say they think it would be nice if there was no more suffering and pain.... but do very, very little to help people in need. Let's not deny this.

The modern world also has a lot more 'comforts' that are deemed far too valuable to lose. With the ease of living, comes a further lack of calling on the Lord.

So, No Lord = big hole in life.... which needs filling..... enter the psychologist along with so many other hole-fillers. There is a need. So we have a solution. Well, a para/pseudo solution.

Now... it appears I am picking on the psychologist.... no. They are part of this 'new' society.... that society which likes to call themselves... civilized! Cultured! Advanced.... I don't know whether to laugh or cry.... seriously.

So, where does Jesus fit into all this?

Well, His teachings deal with every need (pre-modern labelling rights and registration....oh yes, and studies, papers, lessons, theories, etc, that leave Him out of the picture.... though an honest look will see that He covered all that, too) and besides His teachings, we have His example.... and we are also so blessed to have the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth... the Holy Ghost.... who reminds us of all things that He taught... supernaturally - spiritually (a bit beyond the scope of man's doctorates), also the new birth and regeneration, the healing up the broken hearted, the comforting of God's grace in Jesus Christ the Lord.... the making whole that He does in people's lives... and forgiveness ... His love which is shed abroad in our hearts.... WOW! and His acceptance, longsuffering and patience..... etc. etc. etc....
and apart from that, well, Jesus is Lord, and His will be done.... amen.

Look at love.... real Jesus God style definition love.

(psychiatrists also have a problem with love.... clinically speaking, though we better not bring them in to this thread!)

Ask a practicing spychologist ... I mean psychologist what love is .... clinically speaking. There you will have your answer.... and before we go any further, could you please do that.... ask one or two... casually over the phone... unless you are currently seeing one on a professional basis.

Odd thing is though..... they all need it, too!

Bless you..... honestly, bless you ...><>

Br. Bear

Ps... I know I haven't addressed everyone's posts here, but for the sake of Jesus having a fair go at this thread, could you please re-read this and let's see if we can focus on Him a bit more..... you will find answers in Him.... He is the Way, the Truth and the Life... can't do better than Jesus.

pps... Bunnytus, you said: Through our faith we can renew faith in others. Through our hard work and perserverance, the reward not only sets the best example possible but is truly beyond words.
Our hard work and perseverance is... or should be.... our sacrifice of love for others.... not counting the cost, but doing it as if unto Jesus. Bless you.

I'd like to add that I have had enough involvement with people who visit psychologists, even with psychologists themselves (not as a patient), read books and studies on the subject, etc. to know what things like depression and fear and psychosis etc are.... and I know that I have personally had all these and more, at times very intense and debilitating, and I want to testify here and now, that The Lord has always got me through in His great love.... He has always been there for me when I called upon Him.... He always will be, and I want to publicly thank you Jesus for being there for me when no-one else had time or energy, when no-one else bothered, when no-one else had answers for me.... You Lord...yes you my Lord have always been there for me..... I love you and thank you, and please dear Lord, Jesus, my friend who cares, please make yourself known to others here who need your love.... Lord please .... I know that sometimes it is hard to call out, when we feel down... we can think....well, what's the use.... we can give up so easily, so Lord, please open their ears like you did mine, that they may hear you and heed your words which are life..... bless you Jesus.... I love you.

 

[Bunnytus]

Br.Bear...when I stated "our reward" I was referring to God's blessings and his love. I should have made that clear.

Thank you for such a great post.

Take care and God Bless.

Hi Bunnytus,

I began reading your reply and stopped for a few minutes.... listening.

I read on....

you touched on your answer that you seek. It is summed up in love.

One driving force behind the rise in pychologists is the growing demand for them. If nobody needed them, they would need each other to comfort each other!

But seriously, you will find that most people use pychology because they don't have someone else able... or more to the point, willing, to help.

Love is a pure Biblical topic, and for those who are asking for Scriptures over and again, may I point out that most of you are looking in the wrong place. You see, the lack of things of God... not because God lacks, but because people do not seek after Him with all their strength, minds, hearts and souls.... the lack of things of God leaves a vacuum in a soul.

Have you read anywhere about a conscience.... in the Scriptures? Look again and think some more about just how it all fits together. After all, that is what psychology is all about... fitting the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle of the brain together, so maybe a slower and perhaps wiser look at the Scriptures will reveal that the Lord has it all covered... without the help of psychologists, as we know them.

Now, I think I understand that you are linked in some way to the psychology profession, Bunnytus... is that correct?

I am in no way having a dig at you in the words I write. A spade is a spade, so do not take offence from what I write... please.

Getting back to love.

Might as well start at the top.... greater love has no man than this... than he lay down his life for his friend. This life we talk of.... what is it?
How many will give time to others....especially 'difficult' people, people who are having trouble that a few dollars won't fix... or a new car or pair of shoes... not even a bowl of food, or a drink. I mean people who are typical of psychology patients.
Before I go on.... and before anyone jumps to the wrong conclusion here, these folks I label, 'difficult' are not wrong or guilty.... the 'difficult' part is purely the condition of the people who do not offer themselves in love. It is not the people who are suffering.

Look at the Scriptures! Love what....? Suffereth long?

How many people are willing to help someone who needs time to the point of risking getting the sack from their jobs? Not many. How many will forfeit sleep? Not many....well maybe once or twice.... maybe.

Time is really valuable to people.... though the odd thing is, they nearly all waste so much or it.

It all stinks. People can't be bothered, so we see a rise in well meaning helpers in the form of psychologists.

I wonder how many who need a pyschologist have ever given much of their lives to help others. What about those who complain about others who just never seem to 'get over it' if they have a problem?

A lot say they think it would be nice if there was no more suffering and pain.... but do very, very little to help people in need. Let's not deny this.

The modern world also has a lot more 'comforts' that are deemed far too valuable to lose. With the ease of living, comes a further lack of calling on the Lord.

So, No Lord = big hole in life.... which needs filling..... enter the psychologist along with so many other hole-fillers. There is a need. So we have a solution. Well, a para/pseudo solution.

Now... it appears I am picking on the psychologist.... no. They are part of this 'new' society.... that society which likes to call themselves... civilized! Cultured! Advanced.... I don't know whether to laugh or cry.... seriously.

So, where does Jesus fit into all this?

Well, His teachings deal with every need (pre-modern labelling rights and registration....oh yes, and studies, papers, lessons, theories, etc, that leave Him out of the picture.... though an honest look will see that He covered all that, too) and besides His teachings, we have His example.... and we are also so blessed to have the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth... the Holy Ghost.... who reminds us of all things that He taught... supernaturally - spiritually (a bit beyond the scope of man's doctorates), also the new birth and regeneration, the healing up the broken hearted, the comforting of God's grace in Jesus Christ the Lord.... the making whole that He does in people's lives... and forgiveness ... His love which is shed abroad in our hearts.... WOW! and His acceptance, longsuffering and patience..... etc. etc. etc....
and apart from that, well, Jesus is Lord, and His will be done.... amen.

Look at love.... real Jesus God style definition love.

(psychiatrists also have a problem with love.... clinically speaking, though we better not bring them in to this thread!)

Ask a practicing spychologist ... I mean psychologist what love is .... clinically speaking. There you will have your answer.... and before we go any further, could you please do that.... ask one or two... casually over the phone... unless you are currently seeing one on a professional basis.

Odd thing is though..... they all need it, too!

Bless you..... honestly, bless you ...><>

Br. Bear

Ps... I know I haven't addressed everyone's posts here, but for the sake of Jesus having a fair go at this thread, could you please re-read this and let's see if we can focus on Him a bit more..... you will find answers in Him.... He is the Way, the Truth and the Life... can't do better than Jesus.

pps... Bunnytus, you said: Through our faith we can renew faith in others. Through our hard work and perserverance, the reward not only sets the best example possible but is truly beyond words.
Our hard work and perseverance is... or should be.... our sacrifice of love for others.... not counting the cost, but doing it as if unto Jesus. Bless you.

I'd like to add that I have had enough involvement with people who visit psychologists, even with psychologists themselves (not as a patient), read books and studies on the subject, etc. to know what things like depression and fear and psychosis etc are.... and I know that I have personally had all these and more, at times very intense and debilitating, and I want to testify here and now, that The Lord has always got me through in His great love.... He has always been there for me when I called upon Him.... He always will be, and I want to publicly thank you Jesus for being there for me when no-one else had time or energy, when no-one else bothered, when no-one else had answers for me.... You Lord...yes you my Lord have always been there for me..... I love you and thank you, and please dear Lord, Jesus, my friend who cares, please make yourself known to others here who need your love.... Lord please .... I know that sometimes it is hard to call out, when we feel down... we can think....well, what's the use.... we can give up so easily, so Lord, please open their ears like you did mine, that they may hear you and heed your words which are life..... bless you Jesus.... I love you.

 

[Laudite]

Laudite, could you clarify , which verses are you quoting?

I'm replying to your previous post in which you list biblical examples of what you perceive to be depression.

i am feeling you are raising different issue here and plus as you can see we are against the diagnosis given to people who are depressed (call it sad or depressed). so the points mentioned dose not apply here.

I am not certain that I understand you perfectly, so forgive me if I'm not responding correctly. If you want to evaluate how Christianity and psychology interact, then you cannot ignore how psychology defines what it does and within what bounds it interacts. As to the diagnosis of the depressed... well let me tell you from deep personal experience that depression is not the same as being sad, any more than being on fire is the same as being hot- yes there are similar sensations, but there are profoundly different causes and situations. Did I answer you?

 

[Laudite]

It seems some one is applauding to your replay, but just wanted to come back and post some verses in reference to what you said.




Psalm 139:23-24
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me, and know my anxieties;
24 And see if there is any wicked way in me, And lead me in the way everlasting.

Philippians 4:7
And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:13
[ Be Holy ] Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 2:16
16 For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

proverbs 4:23
23 Guard your heart above all else,
for it determines the course of your life.


proverbs 12:25
25 Anxiety in the heart of man causes depression, But a good word makes it glad.


there are a lot more

You are correct about the bible, but again I don't think you understand what psychology does. I'll put it to you this way: Let's take five common psychiatric disorders-

Anorexia Nervosa

Obsessive Compulsive Disorder

Paranoid Schizophrenia

Borderline Personality Disorder

Agoraphobia

Can you find a biblical description of why these things happen, and how to go about making them better? No- because the bible concerns spiritual thought, and it would be silly to discuss the manner by which thoughts think what they think.

 

[Laudite]

Would it be fair to say a wholesale turning away from faith, an abundance of mixed and therefore poor teachings, and the introduction of many new avenues to deal with social issues to fill the hole in social nucleus structure, could be at least part of the reason that there seems to be such an increase in the study and practice of psychology?

No- because I don't believe that psychology is a response to a social problem. There are certainly several smart and respectable people who think that, but I think it misses the point of psychology.

If you go back a generation or three, and look in dictionaries, you wont find many of the modern ailments.

Neither, of course, will you find descriptions of metabolic disorders, most cancers that don't form giant, obvious external tumors, viruses, abdominal surgery, or electron orbits. This doesn't mean these things didn't exist.

I wonder how the people of the Old Testament coped with no such thing as bipolar, depression and psychologists?

Mostly, in as much as they could recognise it, they would speak of demon possession as a sort of superstitious attempt to define the problem.

Me thinks a turning back to the joy of the Lord would soon put an end to the psychology trade.

think about it.

Well let me ask you then- by what means would a turning back to the joy of the lord end autism. Sure, God grants miracles, but demanding miracles when God has provided other help sounds a lot like casting yourself off a cliff and demanding the angels lift up your feet.

 

[Laudite]

I totally agree, so why then are so many who confess Christ on prozac?

I have seen many cases and some here at TJ where good intentioned believers try to help others suffering from depression by encouraging them with comforting words of how much they are loved, how important they are, how beautiful they are, and who they are in Christ and so on. But focusing on self is a very big part of the problem, looking at self in a negative way is still self-centered. To change the way they look at self from a negative to a positive way only changes their disposition from depression to pride.

Jesus said, "I have loved you even as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love. When you obey me, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father and remain in his love. I have told you this so that you will be filled with my joy. Yes, your joy will overflow! I command you to love each other in the same way that I love you." (John 15:9-12)

To be filled with Christ's joy we must be obedient to Christ and love others.

Comforting words can't help depression. Focusing on others can't help depression either. I'll ask you from personal experience- when I was near my worst I literally could not make myself get out of bed, I could not sleep, I did not want to eat. I'm pretty sure that any talk of 'focus' is worthless at that point because it is the very nature of depression that it makes focus and action impossible. I'll give you another example- the mind often repeats the same ideas over and over without conscious prompting- these are called automatic thoughts. A depressed person tends to have profoundly negative automatic thoughts and loads of medical trials show that the state of the conscious mind cannot correct these negative automatic thoughts. The cognitive behavioral school corrects these thoughts in a sort of pavlovian conditioning. Really- as a person who has used therapy (among other things) to come back from the depths of depression- its not about feeling better about yourself, its about changing and getting rid of negative feelings, to the extent that it regards feelings at all.

 

[jiggyfly]

Comforting words can't help depression. Focusing on others can't help depression either. I'll ask you from personal experience- when I was near my worst I literally could not make myself get out of bed, I could not sleep, I did not want to eat. I'm pretty sure that any talk of 'focus' is worthless at that point because it is the very nature of depression that it makes focus and action impossible. I'll give you another example- the mind often repeats the same ideas over and over without conscious prompting- these are called automatic thoughts. A depressed person tends to have profoundly negative automatic thoughts and loads of medical trials show that the state of the conscious mind cannot correct these negative automatic thoughts. The cognitive behavioral school corrects these thoughts in a sort of pavlovian conditioning. Really- as a person who has used therapy (among other things) to come back from the depths of depression- its not about feeling better about yourself, its about changing and getting rid of negative feelings, to the extent that it regards feelings at all.

so are you saying that someone can be overflowing with joy and be depressed at the same time?