Psychology vs. Christianity

[stephen]

This seems silly to me- first, your failure to differentiate Aristotle and Plato and their implications for Psychology might reveal something about the depth of your consideration of a school of thought. Making Ad Hominem attacks against early theorists, while a favorite tactic of the ignorant, does not have any bearing on the validity of an idea. I absolutely reject the idea that a person is the root of an idea, because the merits of a thought have nothing to do with the merits of a person. Also, St. Paul specifically rejects your condemnation of philosophy ('A law unto themselves- Romans. Check out the study thereof for a thoughtful explanation)


Your assertion of what constitutes the root of an idea is objectionable. Furthermore, was Christ not acting like a psycologist? You make it sound like he waved his hands and said 'I holy spirited you, you has no problems now' Rather, he gives forgiveness that starts with an affirmation of the value of the penitent- (think of the woman who washes His feet with her tears and hair, or the adultress about to be stoned) which sounds a lot like psychology to me.


I strongly disagree- the mind and the soul are related, but not the same thing. A starving man needs Christ and bread- a sick man needs Christ and medicene, a depressed man needs Christ and psychiatric help. Surely Christ works miracles every day, but to demand and expect it is to tempt God.


Ew... both you Greek and your mythology is off. psychen does not reflect the dichotomy of mind and soul (largely a result of hebraic and christian traditions of philosophy) and the character Psyche was a mortal. Psychen is more accurately translated mind, mindset, or state of mind. Also, where are you getting this 'ignores the soul' stuff. Now it isn't a soul approach, but rather a mind approach, so it doesn't theorize on how God will get rid of your depression. But psychology does recognise that religion provides much better outcomes and can help recover from depression. It's just in another realm- if you want to know how to lose weight by atheletic activity, the answer will not involve how to diet- but that does not deny the necessity and usefulness of dieting.



1) you present this as an absolute- which does not reflect reality. People still make choices- that's why people from the same environment are not the same. I think that Christian theology would share the extent to which people are shaped by their experiences- think about St. Augustine and his peculiar path to God through needing to escape sin.

2) This is just false. You confuse Psychology with morality- the former does not attempt to assign responsibility and doing so would not be helpful to the field. it starts with an attempt to understand why people make the choices they do, and then attempts to change that path of causation. Perhaps because of the status of comprehension and sanity in the law, you've incorrectly interpolated legal guilt (which psychology does not shape, it only informs standards independently set) with moral responsibility. The two are not the same, nor does one result in the other.

3) Absolutely not. A victim is powerless and recieves actions. The point of psychology is to understand what happens and empower a person to change their situation and thoughts. Frankly, your focus on 'responsibility' misses the point and is a bit offensive. In what sense is it useful to tell a depressed person or paranoid schizophrenic about responsibility? I have a feeling that perhaps you do not have a very close understanding of what psychology does.

4) Yes, but self esteem is paramount for a healty, functioning mind- not validation, not purpose, and certainly not salvation. I doubt you can argue that a person without self esteem can function in a healthy manner.

'abigya' in her O.P. was quoting the words of the international gospel preacher 'Andrew Womack'

Andrew Womack represents Jesus and the ministry of the gospel to folks and nations. "Salvation is of the Lord"

This is thought number 1

When the great man Paul preached in Athens he observed that they were "very religious" He made this remark having observed that they had erected a shrine to every known god. Even having a shrine "To the Unknown god" not wanting to exclude any.

Paul said that he wanted to declare this 'Unknown god' to them, and went on to preach Jesus. Philosophers of that day were in the crowd. Some of these 'thinkers' came to know Jesus that day.
Acts 17 v 16-34

Womack, like Paul, exalts Jesus, Jesus was the only Saviour in Paul's day as he confronted the Greek philosopher of Athens, and Jesus remains the only Saviour and the only saving message today.

Appreciate your thoughts/knowledge 'Laudite' but please do not so attack our lovely 'abigya' she is just trying to exalt Jesus

 

[abigya]

I actually changed my mind. I think I can I restate my point differently so you see what I am saying.

What I have been trying to point out is this:
For a christian is it within our understanding that God loves us and he is the ultimate healer and provider. We know we can look to him and seek refuge in his love. We also know that HE is ALL we need to get through crisis and rough patches.

For a non-christian these things are not (always) within their understanding. It is our job to bring it to them and show them because that is what God wants and needs us to do. BUT I truly feel if one's mind is completely bogged down they need to work through those things before they are able to focus on what christians are offering and what God needs to share with them. When one is able to clearly focus he or she is able to hear and think clearly.

Through psychology one can work through the issues that are holding them back or causing emotions to rise and fall. Psychology encompasses many areas, all of which have been brought forth to help individuals work through specific problems.

I hope this was more helpful in revealing my reasoning than the last couple of posts.


****
I forgot to address two statements you also made:
1) I do not see where I insulted the ablesd12. I will run through and search for this. You however have done a bang up job on the insults yourself. Let's not start pointing fingers...
2) "perhaps this is a wrong statement you could ever make here. specially in Talk Jesus" - Why???
Am I not allowed to speak openly? The word "you" was in a general sense; besides that it was a purely opiniated statement. It was not meant to be offensive or evil.

Okay good,

I actually changed my mind. I think I can I restate my point differently so you see what I am saying.

I didn't quote anything from the scriptures because I was offering my thoughts and feelings.

Only if you are going to express your self with the word of God I am interested to discuss further. not your thought and feelings

I am rejoicing reading Mark 5:1-20


not only depression , Jesus can heal the extreme mental disorder ....for his GLORY

Bunnytus, I am sorry if my quoting bible verses are offending you. but that's what i will be doing ..........

 

[Bunnytus]

Quoting scirptures does not offend me in any way. I think it is wonderful to back up what one is saying, especially if they are directly stating. "The bible says..."

That is not what my statement was getting at...but we will leave it at that. No biggie.

You can converse as you wish, but if you shut out feelings and thoughts, then there is not point in carrying on conversations at all. Everything we say and do has emotion or thought to is; sorry but that is reality. I don't believe in constantly throwing the bible in someone's face to prove a point; and it seems, unfortunately, that is what this has now about (it seems). Don't get me wrong: It is the best reference during times of reflection when discussing topics in God's word and in assuring another God's expectations. It's just that I don't always need to quote scriptures because I know from my life, my experiences with God, how to think and feel. AGAIN, I absolutely need his word to support those thoughts and feelings, but especially so that I live as he expects me to.

Thank you for your time, patience, and understanding. I understand now that any and all conversations with you MUST be backed with direct quotes from the bible. I will keep that in mind should I respond to any other of your discussion topics.

Psalms 19: 1-4; 14
1. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows his handiwork.
2. Day unto day utters speech, and night unto night reveals knowledge.
3. There is not speech nor language where their voice is not heard.
4. Their line has gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world.

14. Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my be acceptable in your sight, O Lord, my strenght
and my Redeemer.


Take care and God Bless!

 

[abigya]

Quoting scirptures does not offend me in any way. I think it is wonderful to back up what one is saying, especially if they are directly stating. "The bible says..."

That is not what my statement was getting at...but we will leave it at that. No biggie.

You can converse as you wish, but if you shut out feelings and thoughts, then there is not point in carrying on conversations at all. Everything we say and do has emotion or thought to is; sorry but that is reality. I don't believe in constantly throwing the bible in someone's face to prove a point; and it seems, unfortunately, that is what this has now about (it seems). Don't get me wrong: It is the best reference during times of reflection when discussing topics in God's word and in assuring another God's expectations. It's just that I don't always need to quote scriptures because I know from my life, my experiences with God, how to think and feel. AGAIN, I absolutely need his word to support those thoughts and feelings, but especially so that I live as he expects me to.

Thank you for your time, patience, and understanding. I understand now that any and all conversations with you MUST be backed with direct quotes from the bible. I will keep that in mind should I respond to any other of your discussion topics.

Psalms 19: 1-4; 14
1. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows his handiwork.
2. Day unto day utters speech, and night unto night reveals knowledge.
3. There is not speech nor language where their voice is not heard.
4. Their line has gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world.

14. Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my be acceptable in your sight, O Lord, my strenght
and my Redeemer.


Take care and God Bless!

well It wasn't about me, it was about the scriptural truth not personal feelings and thoughts.

"and let the truth speak to us"

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings Bunnytus,

Phycology is a science of man.

Christianity is the way of God in Christ Jesus the Lord.

So, although a worldly way to deal with problems will produce limited results based upon the limited wisdom of man, God, through Christianity transforms and renews the mind.

If you care to have scriptural reference to these points, just say so.

For now, it is important to see where a conversation is going, and gracefully stop if we see we are intimidating others.

It appears that some folks determine that they are experts based upon their own opinions and experience in this world. Such wisdom is foolishness to God.

What is needed is the shining of the light of the Gospel, with good works from God being manifested to back up the Word, for those who are hard of believing. The Gospel does not require psychology, which is an evolving science, to make manifest the glory of God to the hearer.

The Lord calls whom He will, and although one may plant and another water, it is God that gives the increase.... according to His will, and wisdom, which is foolishness to the world.

I understand that the use of psychology is one way to assist folks who have problems, and it is also a way to interpret the folks who don't have any problems, however, psychology is a vain practice in the light and power of God's Word.

Attempting to help people is a noble act of kindness. For those who believe that psychology is a good tool to help folks with, they are doing what they understand - or at least think they understand, and therefore they are doing the best they can.

Helping people through the Word and prayer, through presenting Jesus Christ the Lord to folks is doing the best that God can do, so if a Christian is doing just that, they are doing a spiritual thing, not a worldly thing.

Now, we fight not against the flesh, but against spiritual wickedness in high places, against deceitful darkness, that can not be expressed through psychology.

It would appear that the use of the term 'psychology' here in this thread is not the correct word for what you are trying to say.
Psychology is an ever changing science which is based upon the going trend of officially accepted thought processes of a few citizens amongst 6 billion upon this planet.

Perhaps you would better use the term of 'reasoning' with needy folks?

Please remain polite here at Talk Jesus. It is very easy to see through words that you use, and see the lack of grace given to others.


May the Lord bless your understanding of Him and grant you opportunity to share the Gospel in power, as it is, without relying upon psychology for effect.

Bless you,

Br. Bear

 

[Property Of God]

See, I'm not any smart or wise to post a reply after so many awesome members already commented, but I'd like to say one thing.

Learn to take the good and leave the bad.
If there is something in psychology that we all agree is good, take it and learn from it and be wiser.
and just leave the bad sides.

If I wanted to live say for example in Iraq and everyone told me Oh don't it's so messed up and bad and all, I'd go and learn the good things from the people and leave the bad thing.

If I have a chance to learn something new that won't contradict with my principles, why not?

I wanna add something, I hate psychology.

 

[jiggyfly]

Seems to me that psychology and today's typical christianity are very much the same in the sense that most of what is called christian or Spirit or even Christ is originated from the soul.

You should also know this, Timothy, that in the last days there will be very difficult times. For people will love only themselves and their money. They will be boastful and proud, scoffing at God, disobedient to their parents, and ungrateful. They will consider nothing sacred. They will be unloving and unforgiving; they will slander others and have no self-control; they will be cruel and have no interest in what is good. They will betray their friends, be reckless, be puffed up with pride, and love pleasure rather than God. They will act as if they are religious, but they will reject the power that could make them godly. You must stay away from people like that.

If you are going to judge, judge both with the same rule. Put them both under the same microscope. I am not defending psychology but I am encouraging everyone to look at today's common christian religious institution using the same method and reference. There are many of the leaders in today's christian religious system who are just as carnal as those mentioned concerning psycology. We need to begin to discern between carnality and Spirituality. We need the gift of discerning of spirits working within us.

 

[Bunnytus]

Br. Bear - thank you for your post, although I am unsure what you meant by a couple of things. No worries - not going to ask for further explanation. You shared your thoughts/opinions on the subject matter as I have attempted to do.

I must say, though, I don't feel I was being impolite; maybe a little (combative) thrown off when it was revealed that my thoughts and feelings were not valid since there was no scriptures to support them (not trying to disrespectful - just honest). I was under the assumptions that when a topic is up for discussion we are allowed to be honest about our stances without, of course, being mean, rude or hurtful. We all have to remember that writing tends to be a bit impersonal, thus the reason why I mentioned in one of my earlier posts that I wish I could discuss this in person. After posting my last post on here I had already determined to be done with the topic but felt the need to offer one last post in references to yours. With that said, I hope you understand these words are written with a steady hand and loving heart.
Thank you for generous thoughts and time. :handshake:

</IMG>

 

[Br. Bear]

Thank you for your reply Bunnytus.

And thank you for your courtesy. It is good that we all remember kindness, especially when discussing God's grace. You might find that I did not share my opinions or thoughts in my post.

Jiggyfly, I suppose one needs discernment. When I use the title Christian, I am referring to Christians, not people who might profess to be Christian.

It is like this, is there such a thing as a good Christian?

While we might say yes, the answer is no. A Christian is Christ-like, because of God's grace in Jesus Christ the Lord. It is like saying a good Christ. Silly really isn't it.
So, when I use the title Christian, be assured that I know whom I refer to.
We need to be precise with our words, just as the Lord is.
Psychology uses many words to say very little, and prove even less.

Many folks have been helped in part with the science of psychology, but why stop at only helping in part?

Bless you both, and if you must continue this thread, please try to do so with a better focus on the subject of the thread, or else pm each other if you wish to discuss other things..... gracefully, and gently.

 

[jiggyfly]

Thank you for your reply Bunnytus.

And thank you for your courtesy. It is good that we all remember kindness, especially when discussing God's grace. You might find that I did not share my opinions or thoughts in my post.

Jiggyfly, I suppose one needs discernment. When I use the title Christian, I am referring to Christians, not people who might profess to be Christian.

It is like this, is there such a thing as a good Christian?

While we might say yes, the answer is no. A Christian is Christ-like, because of God's grace in Jesus Christ the Lord. It is like saying a good Christ. Silly really isn't it.
So, when I use the title Christian, be assured that I know whom I refer to.
We need to be precise with our words, just as the Lord is.
Psychology uses many words to say very little, and prove even less.

Many folks have been helped in part with the science of psychology, but why stop at only helping in part?

Bless you both, and if you must continue this thread, please try to do so with a better focus on the subject of the thread, or else pm each other if you wish to discuss other things..... gracefully, and gently.

Sorry, I thought I was on topic.

 

[abigya]

CHRISTIANITY VERSUS PSYCHOLOGY

In the last days "people will be lovers of themselves" so the Bible warns us in 2 Timothy 3:2. I wonder how many Christian churches realize that they might be helping to fulfill this prophecy. One of the biggest threats to Christ's church today is the religion of psychology. I'm probably going to step on more than a few toes here, but yes, you heard me right. Psychology is indeed a religion and it is very destructive to the Word of God. While psychology has infiltrated our American Culture, the worst tragedy is its infiltration of the Christian church where it has been synthesized with the teachings of the Bible. To synthesize psychology with the Bible is like putting together devil-worship and Christianity. It is an oxymoron of the highest sort and yet many Christian churches have done just that.


Psychology is a religion based on man's self-centered wisdom whereas true Christianity believes in the sufficiency of God's Word. As our nation is becoming increasingly secularized, even many Christians are buying into thinking that religion is something separate from their everyday lives. Forgetting that Christianity is a complete way of life, Christians no longer believe that all the wisdom they need for a fruitful life has been given to them in the Bible by God Almighty Himself. Instead they turn to the human experts and psychology.


Looking at the fathers of psychology and its anti-Christian roots should be enough to prove that Christians should take no part in its practice. Probably the two biggest names in psychotherapy are Sigmund Freud and Carl Jung. Freud called religion inherently evil and said it was a form of neurosis. Jung called religion a mental illness and said it was just an imaginary coping mechanism. Both of these men dabbled in mysticism and the occult. Adler, Maslow, Fromm, Rogers, Janov - not a one believed in Jesus Christ. Their theories were based solely on their own opinions of how they thought they could change people without God.


With the decline of true religion came the rise in psychology. Since its birth in the 1850's, Americans can't seem to get enough therapy. Even though we are the most prosperous nation on earth people wonder why they are unhappy and how they can improve their lives. Instead of opening their Bibles, they are turning to psychology which offers the latest theories and treatments that try to explain to us why we think, feel and act the way we do according to man's theories not biblical truths about the nature of man.


While people who focus on others tend to have more joy and peace of mind, man's true nature is one of sinfulness and selfishness and it is that very nature that causes his unhappiness. Those who focus on themselves are never happy or content because they are always striving for something better - a better car, house, mate, better body, more money etc. - but it is never enough. Most problems tend to be a direct result of self-focus, and yet that is what psychology tells us to focus on - ourselves. It teaches that our unhappiness comes from OUR unmet needs. It's about how WE feel, about OUR plans and OUR desires.


Most psychological thinking believes people are basically good and if we just look inside ourselves we can through our own self-effort improve our lives without God. But God's word says, "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" Jeremiah 17:9. Psychology also teaches that we are victims of our past and our problems stem from people and environments that negatively influenced us in the past. In other words psychology believes our past controls our present, but there was no one in Adam and Eve's past and they had a perfect environment. Their problem was that they trusted their deceitful hearts instead of God. Sin was the cause of their misery.


Look at the misery in our government schools since they kicked out God and began heavily promoting psychology. Schools are being flooded with psychologists and counselors and the like. Knowing how extremely biased these schools are against Christianity, I don't think there is any bigger proof that psychology is anti-Christian than that. If it was anywhere close to being Christian, these schools would dump it. (In fact just recently a counselor at a North Carolina high school was suspended because a student struggling with homosexuality asked for biblical advice and the counselor gave it.) Statistics show that even with all the psychology that kids are getting at schools, cheating, theft, violent crime, vandalism, venereal disease, teenage suicide, etc. continue to increase at an alarming rate. Not only is psychology not Christian, but it doesn't work. Besides do you really believe government should be involved in your child's "mental health"? But then that is a story for a future article.


Why aren't we being told the truth about psychology? Because even though psychology doesn't work, there are big bucks in this industry. According to "Psychology Debunked" by Lisa and Ryan Bazler, America has gone from 14 percent of our population having received psychological services in the 1960's to 80 percent at the start of the 21st century. We pay more than $17 billion a year for psychological therapies, which contributes to a $69 billion mental health industry. That industry continues to grow at an annual rate of 7 percent. I am not saying that there are not therapists out there who mean well. I would bet that most took on a career in therapy because they wanted to help people, but that doesn't change the truth. The root cause of all of our problems is SIN. The only real answer is in the Bible and it is not the gushy gospel that is being preached in many Christian churches.


The many thousands of churches that are following the feel good self-esteem building techniques of the church growth movement are promoting throughout the country, are following the anti-Christian practice of psychology. While it may make people feel good for a while and get their butts in the seats on Sunday morning, it is not bringing them the true message of salvation. It is also not equipping them to handle real life. They will never truly know or understand the peace and joy that comes with being a follower of Christ unless they understand the truthfulness of their sinful nature.


There may come a time when you or your family will need intervention by a third party, but if and when that time comes, the best thing to do is to save yourself that therapist's fee and see a trusted friend or pastor who has a personal interest in your well being. Real biblical counseling should be free. The best remedy here on earth is for the church to go back to preaching the whole counsel of God and when someone from your congregation needs help in their personal life, they need biblical advice, not psychology. The root cause of all of our problems is SIN and it seems to be the one thing that most churches are afraid to preach on today.


© 2004 Debbie O'Hara - All Rights Reserved

 

[HeLovesYou]

I went through great depression and, years after the Lord brought me away from this, my conclusion for the reason I had to endure the most awful times of my life is that MY OWN SIN led me into it. It was a very slow downward spiral at first, almost unnoticeable to anyone, including myself. As time passed by, the viciously devastating cycle accumulated speed. In enough time, all things dark and evil actually seemed better than how I felt in my soul. I so longed for death. One has difficulty explaining the depths that depression can reach.

The bottom line is this: Nothing could've brought me out of that hell except for our loving God. He was moved to show His mercy on me due to many prayers from my friends, family, and myself.

Praise Jesus,,,,God bless you all......God can and will loose the chains that bind you if you let Him. There IS hope!!

 

[abigya]

The bottom line is this: Nothing could've brought me out of that hell except for our loving God. He was moved to show His mercy on me due to many prayers from my friends, family, and myself.

Praise Jesus,,,,God bless you all......God can and will loose the chains that bind you if you let Him. There IS hope!!

Amen, How it would have glorify God if people could come to the Lord for their solution instead of running to the so called psychologists.

God can and will loose the chains that bind you if you let Him

Amen

 

[Katzie]

I have been following this topic as it greatly interests me.

I have a daughter who I raised as a Christian from birth. Her father became scizophrenic and lost it all when she was 16 and just abandomed us. I spent many years trying to drag him to Church, counselors, but he was not willing to be helped. His father also became scizophrenic around the same age and they also both became alcoholics first, also his father spent 26 years in a mental institution until he died.
The point of what I am saying is that genictically my daughter was predisposed to psychological problems and started displaying them at a very young age with ADHD, OCD, Panic attacks, paranoia and depression. All along she attended Church, read her Bible daily, shared scripture with anyone who would listen, prayed all the time. However, she still was in turmoil with these problems. What confuses me about this conversation is what is the difference between seeking out Medical professionals to help with chemical imbalances in the brain and my seeking out help from Medical Doctors to help with my Crohn's disease?
I have prayed without ceasing for God to heal my intestines and give me the ability to eat and tolerate food and to have the strength I need to handle all the responsibilities on my plate. I am still sick?
Have I failed as a Christian, do I lack faith?
I even stopped taking my medication and really truly believed with all my heart and soul God would give me a miracle. I ended up loosing weight I couldn't afford to loose, became more disabled, couldn't eat and at times couldn't even tolerate liquids. Did I lack faith?
My son is Autistic and I had to seek out professional help for him at age 3 and this help got him through some of the most difficult times of his life and by the time he was 8 he was mainstreamed into 3rd grade and he excelled academically yet he still has social and commication problems. Do I not take the help from the agencies and professionals out there trained to help Autistic teenagers make the transition from school into working and functioning in the world that we have to live in?

I'm sorry I have no scripture to make reference to other then "God helps those who help themselves".

Due to my illness and having had my head put through my windshield by a drunk driver going through a stopsign at 90 mph. I have a lot of trouble memorizing scripture, but I work on it all the time and I'm happy if I can remember one new scripture a week.
Anyway, I digress.....my point is I am not understanding the debate about ones faith if they have a mental illness or chemical imbalance or something so traumatic happen and need counseling. Yes, I prefer to go to my Pastor for counseling, but my daughter's problems are a bit more complicated and for the time being she needs some medication to straighten out the mess her brain is in and yes a lot of it was self inflicted by her turning to alcohol and drugs because the depression became so overwhelming especially when her father just dissappeared out of our lives never to be heard from again.
I think if it was that simple that all we have to is believe and all our problems will be taken care of then none of would be sick, suffering, struggling, or dying from brain cancer...which one of our Christians just did recently.

I am absolutely not saying in any way shape or form that Psychology or Medical Doctors in any way can replace what the Lord can do for us.

I am also not saying in any way shape or form that I don't believe in miracles because not only I do I have personally experienced them over and over. However, some of these miracles occured while I was using the help from the Professionals in the field that I needed at the time. I also prayed long and hard before I went anywhere to seek help and always felt God leading me and always felt blessed for listening to him.
So, I guess the bottom line is I am trying to find out why some believe that getting help from Psychologists, Psychiatrists is showing a lack of faith???
Also, please know I have not always agreed with the Psychiatrists who want to just prescribe and prescribe medication especially to young children. I absolutely refused to put my son on medication and thank God he has done very very well. However, my daughter did some major damage to her brain which had pre-existing chemical imbalances. She was self medicating herself with drugs and alcohol and yes she backslid as a Christian because she felt worthless due to her fathers actions. So, now she needs some help to straighten out the chemicals in her brain and shes does the absolute best ever on the medication and this is not forever.
She is back in Church and I believe the Lord will heal her over time, but really would it be so bad if she had to take medication for a long time?
I take blood pressure medication because I have hypertension and when I stopped taking it and again tried to believe God would just take away my hypertension I ended up in the ER with 200/158 pressure and chest pains.
Again, did I lack faith?

I know I didn't and I had many people calling me crazy to do what I was doing but I truly wanted to live my life free of medication and still do and yet I'm still struggling horribly with my Crohn's disease. Anyway, I didn't mean to ramble on so long and I know the Medical end of it is a little off topic, but to me if you're going to judge someone for seeking Psychological help then wouldn't the same judgement be cast on those seeking medical help?

Please correct me if I'm taking all of this the wrong way and trust me I could go on because I have a mother with dementia who is being given medication for that.....where do you draw the line? I still firmly believe "God helps those who help themselves".

"In all things give the Glory to God"!!!!

 

[Katzie]

I just want to add one more thing to try to clarify where I am coming from. I have also suffered from depression. Horrible deep dark depression where thoughts of wanting to close my eyes and never wake ran through my head. I did not seek out a psychologist or psychiatrist. I did not take antidepressants as my Primary Care Doctor wanted. I trusted the Lord completely because my depression was brought on my overwhelming circumstances in my life, not a chemical imbalance or mental disorder. So, I prayed and prayed and spent time in fellowship with my brothers and sisters in the Lord and the Lord brought me out of it and it's an ongoing battle as those overwhelming circumstances still exist. However, I have had unsaved people come to me and ask me "How do you do it?" because they know my circumstances and they see me when I am at my best and they see that I have something that they do not have. So, I have been blessed to be able to witness to them and I pray that the Lord will continue to use me in this way.

Also, I said in my previous post that I could not make reference to any scripture by memory in regards to the saying "God helps those who help themselves"......I didn't mean to say that was a scripture, just something drilled into my head ever since I became a Christian 32 years ago. When I have time I will use my concordance and do some research to find the basis of that saying. I found one scripture just quickly looking on line but it's not exactley the best example, but none the less here it is.

"He who does not work shall not eat." Yet we hear that some of you are living in laziness, refusing to work, and wasting your time in gossiping. In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ we appeal to such people--we command them--to quiet down, get to work, and earn their own living. 2 Thessalonians 3:10-12

Be Blessed,

Katzie

 

[abigya]

Dear Sister Katzie, i also can see where you are coming from. in fact i saw a great mother and women of faith.

i want to say God has allowed mankind to learn about many medical tools, and He sometimes uses medicine to heal. (may be some one could help with bible verses here)

please don't misunderstand me, i am not against any kind of medication for mentally ill people. But against depressions caused by the root of sin. the solution for this is not antidepressant.


God bless

 

[jiggyfly]

Dear Sister Katzie, i also can see where you are coming from. in fact i saw a great mother and women of faith.

i want to say God has allowed mankind to learn about many medical tools, and He sometimes uses medicine to heal. (may be some one could help with bible verses here)

please don't misunderstand me, i am not against any kind of medication for mentally ill people. But against depressions caused by the root of sin. the solution for this is not antidepressant.


God bless

Please don't misunderstand me, I am not disagreeing with you but what do you think is the solution for depression then?

 

[abigya]

Please don't misunderstand me, I am not disagreeing with you but what do you think is the solution for depression then?

Repentance and faith in Christ

 

[jiggyfly]

Repentance and faith in Christ

So do you think that depression is a direct result of sin? Is it a sin of commission or omission? Do you see any difference between guilt and conviction? What do you think of those who suffer manic depression or bipolar disorder?

 

[abigya]

So do you think that depression is a direct result of sin? Is it a sin of commission or omission? Do you see any difference between guilt and conviction? What do you think of those who suffer manic depression or bipolar disorder?

There are numerous biblical references to depression, It is likely that the first humans to experience depression were Adam and Eve, after they sinned against God.


Examples of people in the Bible who suffered bouts of depression
• Abraham (Genesis 15)
• Jonah (Jonah 4)
• Job (Book of Job)
• Elijah (1 Kings 19)
• King Saul (I Samuel 16:14-23, etc.)
• Jeremiah (Book of Jeremiah)
• David (Psalms 6, 13, 18, 23, 25, 27, 31, 32, 34, 37-40, 42-43, 46, 51, 55, 62-63, 69, 71, 73, 77, 84, 86, 90-91, 94-95, 103-104, 107, 110, 116, 118, 121, 123-124, 130, 138, 139, 141-143, 146-147)
King David — “I am troubled, I am bowed down greatly; I go mourning all the day long. …I groan because of the turmoil of my heart” (Psalm 38:6,8 - NKJV).


Depression due to guilt
CAIN, son of Adam (having disobeyed God)
“Then the LORD said to Cain, ‘Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.’”
-Genesis 4:6-7 (NIV)
DAVID, King of Israel (having committed adultery was depressed until he confessed his sin)
"When I kept silent, my bones grew old Through my groaning all the day long. For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; My vitality was turned into the drought of summer. Selah.
-Psalm 32:3-4


Release from depression caused by guilt came from confession and seeking God's forgiveness…
"For I said in my haste, 'I am cut off from before Your eyes'; Nevertheless You heard the voice of my supplications When I cried out to You. Oh, love the LORD, all you His saints! For the LORD preserves the faithful, And fully repays the proud person. Be of good courage, And He shall strengthen your heart, All you who hope in the LORD. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit. …I acknowledged my sin to You, And my iniquity I have not hidden. I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD," And You forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah.
-Psalm 31:22 - 32:2, 32:5 (NKJV)


“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9 - NKJV).


David's humble prayer for forgiveness (an example for us all)
“Have mercy upon me, O God, According to Your lovingkindness; According to the multitude of Your tender mercies, Blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, And cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions, And my sin is always before me. Against You, You only, have I sinned, And done this evil in Your sight; That You may be found just when You speak, And blameless when You judge. Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.


Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts, And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me hear joy and gladness, That the bones You have broken may rejoice. Hide Your face from my sins, And blot out all my iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me.


Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of Your salvation, And uphold me by Your generous Spirit. Then I will teach transgressors Your ways, And sinners shall be converted to You. …For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, A broken and a contrite heart; These, O God, You will not despise” (Psalm 51:1-13, 16-17 - NKJV

lastly, I have seen people set free from manic or bipolar disorder through prayers. From my experience both this people was controlled by demonic operations. Like what the bible describes it in Mark 5: 1-20