Psychology vs. Christianity

[abigya]

Psychology vs. Christianity


by Andrew Wommack


Psychology has its roots in ancient philosophers like Socrates, Aristotle, and Plato. None of these men were worshipers of the true and living God. At best, they believed in a god that was not involved in the affairs of men, and at worse they worshiped multiple pagan gods.
Modern psychology was brought to the forefront by Sigmund Freud in the late nineteenth century. Freud certainly wasn’t a godly man. He was obsessed with sex and linked every problem of man to the sexual drive. This man had serious problems, even his most devoted followers admitted that.


Here is the point: If the root is bad, then the tree has to be bad. Jesus said this very plainly in Matthew 7:17-18:
“Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.”


The root of psychology is bad, and therefore, the fruit cannot be good. I’m amazed at the acceptance of psychology in our society and especially in the church. Many churches and ministries have resident psychiatrists on staff. This isn’t the approach Jesus took. He met the needs, all the needs of the people through the power of the Holy Spirit, and I believe He intends His church to do the same. They don’t have to depart and go to the world to get their emotional needs met. They should bring them to Jesus (Matt. 14:16-18).


I know many Christians are appalled at these statements. Aren’t there Christian psychologists? Certainly there are. I have some friends who are very successful psychologists. But they will be the first to admit that psychology and Christianity do not offer the same answers to our problems. They use their position to bring the truths of the Gospel to people who would never come to the church for help. If the people will receive the truths of God’s Word, they don’t need any other help. If they won’t receive the Gospel, then in some cases, psychology is better than what they have.


Christianity and psychology have some things in common: They both state that our actions are the product of inner processes. But in describing what those processes are and how to change them, Christianity and psychology take the opposite approach. For one thing, the very word “psychology” reveals an anti-god approach.


The word “psychology” comes from the Greek word "psycho", which is a derivative of the Greek word "psyche" meaning “soul.” Psychology looks no deeper than the soul of man for answers. It totally ignores the spirit realm: our spirits, God’s Holy Spirit, and demonic spirits. The Word of God is replete with teachings and examples of the influence of God, demons, and our spirits on our actions. Any “answer” that doesn’t take the spirit realm into account isn’t going to the root of the problem. The Greek word "psyche" was also the name of the Greek god of the soul. "eros" and "psyche" were lovers in Greek mythology. Who wants that?


Here are four major tenants of psychology that I believe are incompatible with biblical Christianity:
1) We are products of our environment.
2) Therefore, we are not responsible or accountable for our actions.
3) This leads to placing blame for our actions on anything else but on us, making us victims.
4) Self-esteem is paramount.


Let’s look at these areas in the light of Scripture.


First, environment is not the determining factor in who we are and what we do. Proverbs 23:7 says,
“For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he.”


The Word of God shows us that OUR thoughts are what make us the way we are. Environment has some influence on your thoughts, but it is totally wrong to say you’re the way you are because of what has happened to you. If that were true, then everyone who has been through the same negative experiences would have the same problems. That’s not so. You can find siblings with the same genetic make-up and environment who respond totally different to the same situation. We always have the choice of becoming bitter or better. God gave us that choice. Deuteronomy 30:19 says,


“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.”


God said the choice is ours, and what a simple one: life or death. A “no-brainer.” But just in case anyone isn’t sure which to choose, the Lord gave the answer to this quiz. “Choose life,” He said.


We are not doomed to be victims because of past experiences. We can be born again and become brand-new people through the power of Christ. Psychology doesn’t offer that.


Second, since our conditions are a product of how we chose to react to our environment, we can’t blame others for our problems. Taking responsibility for our actions is the big difference between true Christianity and psychology. Psychology has influenced our society to such a degree that no one is held accountable for their actions. Even murderers are being acquitted because it’s "not their fault"; they were abused as children or whatever. That’s stupid. Some of us have had problems that others haven’t, but God still holds us accountable for our own actions, regardless of what has happened to us.


The night before Jesus was crucified, He told His disciples not to let their hearts be troubled but to be of good cheer (John 14:1 and 16:33). Those who hold to the belief that our environment is the determining factor in our emotions and actions would criticize Jesus for telling His disciples to do something they were incapable of doing. But they had a choice. The Lord told us to rejoice in the Lord always (Phil. 4:4). We can choose to go against the pressures of our environment. In John 16:33, Jesus told His disciples,


“These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”


In this passage, Jesus told His disciples that they would have tribulation. What an understatement! They would see Jesus crucified in just a matter of hours. Their hopes would be dashed. Sadness and confusion would overwhelm them. Fear would cause them to live behind locked doors for the next three days. Yet, Jesus told them to be of good cheer. That wasn’t unreasonable; it was doable. And we can do it too if we don’t listen to the psychobabble of today.

 

[Bunnytus]

I completely disagree. Psychology may have been originated by individuals who may or may not have known God, but it is not evil nor is Anti-God. It is an effective tool used to help others find balance within themselves so they CAN focus on their lives and find peace within themselves. Life is difficult, we all know this, and the amount of stress or pressure put on a person sometimes is unbearable. Low self-esteem, low self-confidence, greed, sexual immorality, and many other issues millions of people suffer from. With this most are not christians; so how can they hear the call or understand what HE needs if they cannot figure out what they need first? Most people are not receptive of the word or of God because they are too focused on themselves (it's called humanity); so how does one help open their eyes, ears, and heart to the word?

IF psychology is anti-god then WHY do preachers "counsel" individuals in time of need. They may not be using psychological terms, but the are in fact doing the same as a psychologists would: listening and offering their help.

The key is the counseling part, think about it: it's reasoning and assumptions that eventually lead to understanding and answers. It is helpful and a tool that obviously God saw through its creation. The same goes for medical technology and doctors: are they anti-God because they offer prescribed medicine to cure ones' illness? God allowed these things to be created for all to benefit from. He knew what the world was going to be like and knew there would be need for healers.

I am amazed how easily individuals can turn good things, important things, into something evil or unacceptable.

I completely agree that we need to rely and trust in God so he can work in our lives. His work is amazing, but WE have to put in the work (also) in order to achieve the great rewards he has for us. We should look to him in all things and follow his word, but there are many who do not or cannot because they do not have clarity of mind. It is the christians', the doctor's, and even the psychologist's job to help those in need.

 

[abigya]

It is an effective tool used to help others find balance within themselves so they CAN focus on their lives and find peace within themselves. Life is difficult, we all know this, and the amount of stress or pressure put on a person sometimes is unbearable. Low self-esteem, low self-confidence, greed, sexual immorality, and many other issues millions of people suffer from.

you mean effective tool besides the word of God?

 

[Bunnytus]

In addition to God's word.

 

[abigya]

In addition to God's word.

Bunnytus,

God's word by it self is complit and powerful to set free.


1 timothy 4:5
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance.

and the bible also says .........


Revelation 22:18
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;

 

[Bunnytus]

I completely agree with you as would all the christians around us. I am not disputing the power of the word of God, but the fact that you stated Psychology is anti-God. I simply do not agree with your sentiments on this topic and offered my opinion.

Bunnytus,

God's word by it self is complit and powerful to set free.


1 timothy 4:5
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance.

and the bible also says .........


Revelation 22:18
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;

 

[abigya]

thanks for sharing your view sister Bunnytus.

I would have loved to hear from other too.

Blessings

abigya

 

[Bunnytus]

I am sure you will have others opinions. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and allowing me to share mine.

thanks for sharing your view sister Bunnytus.

I would have loved to hear from other too.

Blessings

abigya

 

[Laudite]

Psychology vs. Christianity


by Andrew Wommack


Psychology has its roots in ancient philosophers like Socrates, Aristotle, and Plato. None of these men were worshipers of the true and living God. At best, they believed in a god that was not involved in the affairs of men, and at worse they worshiped multiple pagan gods.
Modern psychology was brought to the forefront by Sigmund Freud in the late nineteenth century. Freud certainly wasn’t a godly man. He was obsessed with sex and linked every problem of man to the sexual drive. This man had serious problems, even his most devoted followers admitted that.

This seems silly to me- first, your failure to differentiate Aristotle and Plato and their implications for Psychology might reveal something about the depth of your consideration of a school of thought. Making Ad Hominem attacks against early theorists, while a favorite tactic of the ignorant, does not have any bearing on the validity of an idea. I absolutely reject the idea that a person is the root of an idea, because the merits of a thought have nothing to do with the merits of a person. Also, St. Paul specifically rejects your condemnation of philosophy ('A law unto themselves- Romans. Check out the study thereof for a thoughtful explanation)

Here is the point: If the root is bad, then the tree has to be bad. Jesus said this very plainly in Matthew 7:17-18:
“Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.”


The root of psychology is bad, and therefore, the fruit cannot be good. I’m amazed at the acceptance of psychology in our society and especially in the church. Many churches and ministries have resident psychiatrists on staff. This isn’t the approach Jesus took. He met the needs, all the needs of the people through the power of the Holy Spirit, and I believe He intends His church to do the same. They don’t have to depart and go to the world to get their emotional needs met. They should bring them to Jesus (Matt. 14:16-18).

Your assertion of what constitutes the root of an idea is objectionable. Furthermore, was Christ not acting like a psycologist? You make it sound like he waved his hands and said 'I holy spirited you, you has no problems now' Rather, he gives forgiveness that starts with an affirmation of the value of the penitent- (think of the woman who washes His feet with her tears and hair, or the adultress about to be stoned) which sounds a lot like psychology to me.

I know many Christians are appalled at these statements. Aren’t there Christian psychologists? Certainly there are. I have some friends who are very successful psychologists. But they will be the first to admit that psychology and Christianity do not offer the same answers to our problems. They use their position to bring the truths of the Gospel to people who would never come to the church for help. If the people will receive the truths of God’s Word, they don’t need any other help. If they won’t receive the Gospel, then in some cases, psychology is better than what they have.

I strongly disagree- the mind and the soul are related, but not the same thing. A starving man needs Christ and bread- a sick man needs Christ and medicene, a depressed man needs Christ and psychiatric help. Surely Christ works miracles every day, but to demand and expect it is to tempt God.

Christianity and psychology have some things in common: They both state that our actions are the product of inner processes. But in describing what those processes are and how to change them, Christianity and psychology take the opposite approach. For one thing, the very word “psychology” reveals an anti-god approach.


The word “psychology” comes from the Greek word "psycho", which is a derivative of the Greek word "psyche" meaning “soul.” Psychology looks no deeper than the soul of man for answers. It totally ignores the spirit realm: our spirits, God’s Holy Spirit, and demonic spirits. The Word of God is replete with teachings and examples of the influence of God, demons, and our spirits on our actions. Any “answer” that doesn’t take the spirit realm into account isn’t going to the root of the problem. The Greek word "psyche" was also the name of the Greek god of the soul. "eros" and "psyche" were lovers in Greek mythology. Who wants that?

Ew... both you Greek and your mythology is off. psychen does not reflect the dichotomy of mind and soul (largely a result of hebraic and christian traditions of philosophy) and the character Psyche was a mortal. Psychen is more accurately translated mind, mindset, or state of mind. Also, where are you getting this 'ignores the soul' stuff. Now it isn't a soul approach, but rather a mind approach, so it doesn't theorize on how God will get rid of your depression. But psychology does recognise that religion provides much better outcomes and can help recover from depression. It's just in another realm- if you want to know how to lose weight by atheletic activity, the answer will not involve how to diet- but that does not deny the necessity and usefulness of dieting.

Here are four major tenants of psychology that I believe are incompatible with biblical Christianity:
1) We are products of our environment.
2) Therefore, we are not responsible or accountable for our actions.
3) This leads to placing blame for our actions on anything else but on us, making us victims.
4) Self-esteem is paramount.

1) you present this as an absolute- which does not reflect reality. People still make choices- that's why people from the same environment are not the same. I think that Christian theology would share the extent to which people are shaped by their experiences- think about St. Augustine and his peculiar path to God through needing to escape sin.

2) This is just false. You confuse Psychology with morality- the former does not attempt to assign responsibility and doing so would not be helpful to the field. it starts with an attempt to understand why people make the choices they do, and then attempts to change that path of causation. Perhaps because of the status of comprehension and sanity in the law, you've incorrectly interpolated legal guilt (which psychology does not shape, it only informs standards independently set) with moral responsibility. The two are not the same, nor does one result in the other.

3) Absolutely not. A victim is powerless and recieves actions. The point of psychology is to understand what happens and empower a person to change their situation and thoughts. Frankly, your focus on 'responsibility' misses the point and is a bit offensive. In what sense is it useful to tell a depressed person or paranoid schizophrenic about responsibility? I have a feeling that perhaps you do not have a very close understanding of what psychology does.

4) Yes, but self esteem is paramount for a healty, functioning mind- not validation, not purpose, and certainly not salvation. I doubt you can argue that a person without self esteem can function in a healthy manner.

 

[ablesd12]

Hebrews 4:12

The Word of God is alive and powerful able to divide soul and spirit even physical bone and marrow. There is only one way to the Father and thats through Jesus Christ. He said if you love Him keep His commands. The problem with mankind is sin and sin is what brings on all these ailments you describe like depression and suicidal tendencies, etc that are addressed by modern psychologists. And yes your right that these tv preachers sound like a bunch of psycologists using the word of god as their formula. But its heresy my friend pure wolve in sheep clothing heresy! The answer to sin is not 7 steps to your best life now!! The answer for mans depression is the cross. The answer for mans suicidal problems is the cross. The bible says that without faith its impossible to please God. So we run to other alternatives because we can't trust what we can't see. So we put our trust in tangible things like zoloft etc. Repent and do the first works before I come and remove your candle stick from its place.

 

[Bunnytus]

I think you two misunderstand what we are attempting to share. Let me see if I can put it a simple as possible: If a person is not mentally healthy, then how can one expect them to receive GOD in any form? They are not of "sound mind," but are ill. They are unable to accept tangible things as real most of the time, why would they accept someone they cannot SEE? (Because you tell them to? Because you pray with them?) What if they are angry and depressed because they feel GOD did not help them? (this one happens quite often).

Let's look at if from different angle: What about the christian who falls into depression? To me, this means Satan found a way to reach this man of God. Since he already knows the Lord (by his own standards) - how do you assist him: by "preaching" at him and to believe(harder) and READ his bible (MORE)!? I don't doubt in some cases "counseling" him can turn things around, but what happens when you are not there to watch over you friend? Will he be able to follow through without the constant urging?

WE underestimate the pull of Satan at times. WE also undersestimate humanity. Unfortunately "preaching" and "demanding" others to look to GOD may only push them further away. Even gentle persuasion and simple acts of kindess can push people away. You just don't know what or how people will react to things: not even the ones you believe you know deeply.

PEOPLE need to get their minds cleared - cleaned out - before they are able to FOCUS; to be able to hear God one needs to be able to receive him. How is one to do this when he or she has other things to deal with and on their hearts/minds? One with a bogged down life, in my opinion, will not be able to simply pick up the bible, say a prayer, or go to church and find their way through all the muck in their bodies. Some times it takes a professional to assist them in finding the deeper roots to their sadness (etc.).

Let me tell you why I am so convicted in this: I suffered through depression and anger for many years. I was a born-again christian but lost my footing; sad but true. This stemmed from the fact that no matter what church I attended the preaching was all about "going to HELL if you do this, that or the other." The people were many hypocrites: judgemental, gossiping and flat out sinners. They were in the right place for the wrong reasons, needless to say. Another factor that played a role in my anger and depression was life as a child. Lastly, the icing on the depression/anger cake was the fact that I made a very poor choice when I was young that changed my life permanently.

My point is this: GOD could not come into my life and RESCUE me until I had all the mental/emotional items gone. (This is one way Satan tries to keep us from the Lord.) Satan had his grips on me for a while but once I realized who I was fighting, it was no longer a losing battle for me. SO...I saw a therapist, uncovered and addressed my problems, accepted the changes and challenges, but most of all repented and forgave myself.

TO the 2ND POINT:
I have had a dear christian friend, 15 yrs my senior, who ministered to me and loved me unconditionally from the age of 15. She always offered God's word, and her prayers each time we spoke. She was the first of my earthly angels. BUT her work alone did not help me deal with the abuse I suffered, the consequences of my actions, my anger and sadness. The words did not sink in...there was too much junk already there. She is still my friend today...even with a good 6-7 year gap in our friendship. I thanked her when we ran into each after all that time and she told me, "I was only doing what God asked me to do. I love you." I cried....because I realized how long God had been trying to reach me and how long I allowed Satan to prevent me from hearing his voice.

So, to me - This topic is ludicrous and is not based on rationality. I have a feeling this post stems from being uneducated in this area; EXPERIENCE-WISE. ( no offense - it just seems the biggest talkers and the ones with the least experience)

What I mean is this: It's like telling a person who has lost a newborn baby "I know how you feel! OR I completely understand how you must be feeling, what you are thinking" when one has in fact not lost a newborn baby. At that point, THOSE STATEMENTS ARE WORTHLESS - JUST LIP SERVICE. Even though the individual may be trying to help, they do not have an ounce of true understanding of what it feels like or what one thinks when they have lost a baby.

If one has not experienced what he or she offers as a topic for discussion, I feel they will only bring to the table half an understanding. (Two legs to stand on is needed for better balance AND for security.) DON'T GET ME WRONG: it does not mean their thoughts or opinions are not valid or should be descredited. Everyone has a right to believe, think, and feel any way they like - it's all apart of living.


Shifting gears to view psychology from yet another angle:
Shall we look into all the child molesting priests and money-scamming preachers? Probably not -but it seems someone has decided to bash one of the TOOLS that were created to HELP those who were abused and molested. **ALSO: Think about the many abused, molested, and even killed because their attacker did not get help! Our Lord could have saved people from the hurt, but he did not....can you answer why? (I don't need your answer because I know it myself - just hypothetical for you to ponder)**

I will say it one last time: I believe in the power of God and his son Christ Jesus. I know God can change the world by healing the sick and making the economy run smoother with the power he has. We have to work long and hard to reap the benefits of being a good and faithful servants. Sometimes we fail BECAUSE OF SATAN's hard work on us. He plays tricks and implants impure thoughts, he shows us to STEAL instead of work...we all know these things.

Here is a very rational thought: It's SATAN'S doing there are so many individuals suffering mental illness/disorders, i.e. bipolar D., depression. He learned a new trick in keeping down the number of christians.

SO: how does God help to fight Satan's work in our lives???? Think about it long and hard.


Here is a friendly challenge: For those who are lost to the Lord due to drugs, alchohol, or mental illness - TELL ME: HOW WOULD YOU HELP TO RESTORE THEM?

Which of these three problems do you think will be easiest to resolve through reading, praying, and attending church?

Why are people addicts? Why do people have mental illness such as depression, ADD/ADHD, or behavioral disorders??

Now tell me: do you have any education in Psychology? (Either through studying or experiencing it?)

)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

This, again, turned out to be a really long message but I just had so much I felt needed to be said. In no way was I trying to hurt or offend anyone by what I have written here today. This is truly my opinion on the subject. What you have shared is important and I find it very rewarding to read your thoughts too! God bless you all! Much love and peace is offered.





The Lord knows my heart and he knows my soul, for not only did he create them he has inspired much love and honesty (in them) for me to use at will. I do not write things with the intent to hurt or sound blasphemous but in tune with what I feel GOD wants to be boldy stated. His WORD is SUPREME RULING in my life and I do not mean to short-change his book or his abilities in any form. JM

The Word of God is alive and powerful able to divide soul and spirit even physical bone and marrow. There is only one way to the Father and thats through Jesus Christ. He said if you love Him keep His commands. The problem with mankind is sin and sin is what brings on all these ailments you describe like depression and suicidal tendencies, etc that are addressed by modern psychologists. And yes your right that these tv preachers sound like a bunch of psycologists using the word of god as their formula. But its heresy my friend pure wolve in sheep clothing heresy! The answer to sin is not 7 steps to your best life now!! The answer for mans depression is the cross. The answer for mans suicidal problems is the cross. The bible says that without faith its impossible to please God. So we run to other alternatives because we can't trust what we can't see. So we put our trust in tangible things like zoloft etc. Repent and do the first works before I come and remove your candle stick from its place.

 

[abigya]

This seems silly to me- first, your failure to differentiate Aristotle and Plato and their implications for Psychology might reveal something about the depth of your consideration of a school of thought. Making Ad Hominem attacks against early theorists, while a favorite tactic of the ignorant, does not have any bearing on the validity of an idea. I absolutely reject the idea that a person is the root of an idea, because the merits of a thought have nothing to do with the merits of a person. Also, St. Paul specifically rejects your condemnation of philosophy ('A law unto themselves- Romans. Check out the study thereof for a thoughtful explanation)


Your assertion of what constitutes the root of an idea is objectionable. Furthermore, was Christ not acting like a psycologist? You make it sound like he waved his hands and said 'I holy spirited you, you has no problems now' Rather, he gives forgiveness that starts with an affirmation of the value of the penitent- (think of the woman who washes His feet with her tears and hair, or the adultress about to be stoned) which sounds a lot like psychology to me.


I strongly disagree- the mind and the soul are related, but not the same thing. A starving man needs Christ and bread- a sick man needs Christ and medicene, a depressed man needs Christ and psychiatric help. Surely Christ works miracles every day, but to demand and expect it is to tempt God.


Ew... both you Greek and your mythology is off. psychen does not reflect the dichotomy of mind and soul (largely a result of hebraic and christian traditions of philosophy) and the character Psyche was a mortal. Psychen is more accurately translated mind, mindset, or state of mind. Also, where are you getting this 'ignores the soul' stuff. Now it isn't a soul approach, but rather a mind approach, so it doesn't theorize on how God will get rid of your depression. But psychology does recognise that religion provides much better outcomes and can help recover from depression. It's just in another realm- if you want to know how to lose weight by atheletic activity, the answer will not involve how to diet- but that does not deny the necessity and usefulness of dieting.



1) you present this as an absolute- which does not reflect reality. People still make choices- that's why people from the same environment are not the same. I think that Christian theology would share the extent to which people are shaped by their experiences- think about St. Augustine and his peculiar path to God through needing to escape sin.

2) This is just false. You confuse Psychology with morality- the former does not attempt to assign responsibility and doing so would not be helpful to the field. it starts with an attempt to understand why people make the choices they do, and then attempts to change that path of causation. Perhaps because of the status of comprehension and sanity in the law, you've incorrectly interpolated legal guilt (which psychology does not shape, it only informs standards independently set) with moral responsibility. The two are not the same, nor does one result in the other.

3) Absolutely not. A victim is powerless and recieves actions. The point of psychology is to understand what happens and empower a person to change their situation and thoughts. Frankly, your focus on 'responsibility' misses the point and is a bit offensive. In what sense is it useful to tell a depressed person or paranoid schizophrenic about responsibility? I have a feeling that perhaps you do not have a very close understanding of what psychology does.

4) Yes, but self esteem is paramount for a healty, functioning mind- not validation, not purpose, and certainly not salvation. I doubt you can argue that a person without self esteem can function in a healthy manner.

Laudite, try to take a good look, the article is written by Andrew Wommack not by me.

you can continue quoting the article i don't mind about that but the truth is what are you trying to explain with your replay ?

i hope next time you can replay clearly, stating what your base is.

 

[Laudite]

The Word of God is alive and powerful able to divide soul and spirit even physical bone and marrow. There is only one way to the Father and thats through Jesus Christ. He said if you love Him keep His commands. The problem with mankind is sin and sin is what brings on all these ailments you describe like depression and suicidal tendencies, etc that are addressed by modern psychologists. And yes your right that these tv preachers sound like a bunch of psycologists using the word of god as their formula. But its heresy my friend pure wolve in sheep clothing heresy! The answer to sin is not 7 steps to your best life now!! The answer for mans depression is the cross. The answer for mans suicidal problems is the cross. The bible says that without faith its impossible to please God. So we run to other alternatives because we can't trust what we can't see. So we put our trust in tangible things like zoloft etc. Repent and do the first works before I come and remove your candle stick from its place.

Whoa there now buddy. Sin is what brings on depression? That's profoundly offensive- where I come from that would rise to the level of fighting words. Both your message and its implementation is not Christ like in the extreme. The case of the lepers is instructive. Do you not behave like the priests, who blame the lepers for their disease because it was 'God's punishment?' Did not Christ reach out to the lepers, and in no way condemn or place responsiblity on them for their disease? Leprosy is caused by a bacterium- not God's punishment. Depression has obscure roots, but assigning it to sin is just as wrong. I think you know very little about depression- no one, particularly the depressed, I think, puts trust in zoloft. It is not a happy pill, it doesn't magically make problems go away. Christ is sufficient in all things- but to say that I have Christ so I don't need antidepressants is like walking off a cliff and saying I need no parachute because the Lord will send angels to lift up my feet. I hear Jesus isn't down with that sort of putting God to the test.

 

[Laudite]

Laudite, try to take a good look, the article is written by Andrew Wommack not by me.

you can continue quoting the article i don't mind about that but the truth is what are you trying to explain with your replay ?

i hope next time you can replay clearly, stating what your base is.

Nothing personal- its a rhetorical trope. I'm not making any claims about you or Andrew Wommack- it just helps to refute to be able to use a second person pronoun. Um, my point is that psychology is in no way incompatible with Christianity. I'm not sure I understand your question.

 

[Laudite]

Friend Bunnytus- I've been dealing with depression for a while now and have left a bad place in my life, including terrible stress problems and an abusive relationship. I hope I might respond to your questions.

First, I don't think that it has anything to do with Satan. I say this for two reasons- first, Satan has been defeated by Christ. He has no power in this world except that which we choose to give him. I may say with great personal certainty that there is no choice to be depressed- and the notion that there is is one of the most malicious and debilitating lies that the dark lord ever came up with to prevent us from helping ourselves. second- it is, at least for me, a fight against a force and disability utterly unlike any fight against temptation, anger, or other force of satan.

As to alchohol and drugs- those are situations with two components- first is a physical addiction that requires great strength to overcome. The second is a psycological addiction that replaces the God with an idol like booze. Where a healthy person cannot deal with the pain, cannot find the courage to go on, can't see what to do will turn to God and find the strength, and addict turns to the bottle for the false intervention of a false idol. In both cases the addict must choose to no longer drink or do drugs- a decision that is consequent to but seperate from accepting God's help. It does take enormous strength to do- and God can be an instrumental source of help.

Mental illness is different- and different in its different forms. You ask why- there are many answers, but they are all medical in nature, not theological. A bipolar person has a serotonin norepinephrine disorder. I don't think that God cant help you while you are depressed- my personal experience is proof. Before I got help, I was in a bad situation that spiraled out of control. I became less and less functional, until I was moving very little and suicidal. I then one day instead of killing myself got up, called family, and went home to get help. I had no strength to do these things- surely it was God that gave me the strength, just as he gives me strength to get up in the morning and keep fighting when I have none.

 

[Bunnytus]

Laudite
Thank you so much for taking the time to offer your thoughts and your own personal information. I have fought depression for a long time myself. The last time I considered it was when my daughter was a baby. I just could not deal any longer with my life and believed everyone in my life was better off without me. Just as I was about to move forward with my plan, my daughter cried out. I went and picked her up and as I held her I heard: "She needs you more than you realize. You cannot leave this beautiful "bird" (nickname) to face the world alone." I cried and cried while holding my precious daughter and knew I had been so lost in sadness that I almost left behind the people that need me the most - my children. I cried not just because of the terrible mistake I would have made but because I knew I was bound to this life for as long as God required me to be here. The problem with that is I still had no clue what I was supposed to be doing with my life. It took a few years for me to fight off depression, (I choose not take medication for it) but I came face to face with the true person I was about 2 years ago. I have changed quite a bit and in many ways, however, I still have my moments where I get down.

As far as the devil being apart of it, I do believe these things stem from his doing. God may have defeated him but he still has a hold on us. Othewise we would not have become the society we are today. Joyce Meyer writes about similar opinions in her book, "Battlefield of the Mind," p. 164. She is not the say all in everything but she does bring to the table very powerful messages from God.

I completely respect your opinion and appreciate you and your time.
IF ever like to talk further let me know. I will provide you with details via a PM.

Friend Bunnytus- I've been dealing with depression for a while now and have left a bad place in my life, including terrible stress problems and an abusive relationship. I hope I might respond to your questions.

First, I don't think that it has anything to do with Satan. I say this for two reasons- first, Satan has been defeated by Christ. He has no power in this world except that which we choose to give him. I may say with great personal certainty that there is no choice to be depressed- and the notion that there is is one of the most malicious and debilitating lies that the dark lord ever came up with to prevent us from helping ourselves. second- it is, at least for me, a fight against a force and disability utterly unlike any fight against temptation, anger, or other force of satan.

As to alchohol and drugs- those are situations with two components- first is a physical addiction that requires great strength to overcome. The second is a psycological addiction that replaces the God with an idol like booze. Where a healthy person cannot deal with the pain, cannot find the courage to go on, can't see what to do will turn to God and find the strength, and addict turns to the bottle for the false intervention of a false idol. In both cases the addict must choose to no longer drink or do drugs- a decision that is consequent to but seperate from accepting God's help. It does take enormous strength to do- and God can be an instrumental source of help.

Mental illness is different- and different in its different forms. You ask why- there are many answers, but they are all medical in nature, not theological. A bipolar person has a serotonin norepinephrine disorder. I don't think that God cant help you while you are depressed- my personal experience is proof. Before I got help, I was in a bad situation that spiraled out of control. I became less and less functional, until I was moving very little and suicidal. I then one day instead of killing myself got up, called family, and went home to get help. I had no strength to do these things- surely it was God that gave me the strength, just as he gives me strength to get up in the morning and keep fighting when I have none.

 

[abigya]

Bunnytus

If a person is not mentally healthy, then how can one expect them to receive GOD in any form? They are not of "sound mind," but are ill. They are unable to accept tangible things as real most of the time, why would they accept someone they cannot SEE? (Because you tell them to? Because you pray with them?) What if they are angry and depressed because they feel GOD did not help them? (this one happens quite often).

where is your faith in God then ?

WE underestimate the pull of Satan at times. WE also undersestimate humanity. Unfortunately "preaching" and "demanding" others to look to GOD may only push them further away. Even gentle persuasion and simple acts of kindess can push people away. You just don't know what or how people will react to things: not even the ones you believe you know deeply.

perhaps this is a wrong statement you could ever make here. specially in Talk Jesus

Let me tell you why I am so convicted in this: I suffered through depression and anger for many years. I was a born-again christian but lost my footing; sad but true. This stemmed from the fact that no matter what church I attended the preaching was all about "going to HELL if you do this, that or the other." The people were many hypocrites: judgemental, gossiping and flat out sinners. They were in the right place for the wrong reasons, needless to say. Another factor that played a role in my anger and depression was life as a child. Lastly, the icing on the depression/anger cake was the fact that I made a very poor choice when I was young that changed my life permanently.

it dose not proof any of the clame you are trying to make here. the only thing i know is God is the source of every good thing.

James 1:17


17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

My point is this: GOD could not come into my life and RESCUE me until I had all the mental/emotional items gone. (This is one way Satan tries to keep us from the Lord.) Satan had his grips on me for a while but once I realized who I was fighting, it was no longer a losing battle for me. SO...I saw a therapist, uncovered and addressed my problems, accepted the changes and challenges, but most of all repented and forgave myself.

Rev 5:9&10
And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

I could not understand you at all, you are trying to tell us here Jesus saved your life and at the same time your point is God was powerless to rescue you from your emotional and mental problems coused by Satan.

So, to me - This topic is ludicrous and is not based on rationality. I have a feeling this post stems from being uneducated in this area; EXPERIENCE-WISE. ( no offense - it just seems the biggest talkers and the ones with the least experience)

Now tell me: do you have any education in Psychology? (Either through studying or experiencing it?)

I wouldn’t answer your question even if I was a graduate of Doctorate in Psychology. You may feel you are most knowledgeable and educated here at talk Jesus but


1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

If you want to know about me this is the only thing i can tell you.........


2 Corinthians 3: 4-6
4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God.
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God,
6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Lastly ....... I am surprised that you took your time to type all the unbiblical statements. you haven't even try to quote or refer to the word of God. Instead you insulted ablesd12.

The answer for mans depression is the cross. The answer for mans suicidal problems is the cross.

isn't this true ? try to challenge people with the truth (the word of God)

 

[Bunnytus]

This is purely a brief answer directly related to your statements; I am not going to spend any more time trying to re-explain everything.

I didn't quote anything from the scriptures because I was offering my thoughts and feelings. I never said anything with "the bible says.." for that purpose. So, are you telling me there ARE scriptures describing counseling as being evil and against God's wishes?

Who are you to question another's faith in God? You have taken and twisted my words to suit your needs. My statement is clear - I am sorry you are struggling with understanding. I will pray for you on this matter. If you try to read through my writing
with an understanding and open heart then maybe your mind would be able to internalize the message better for you.

I don't know what works for each individual that I come in contact with but through prayer and through conversation I learn these things. If I were to just jump at someone who is not ready to receive God OR his message with the bible in my hand, I guarantee it will come across the wrong way. Reaching out to another is not calling them sinners because they suffer from depression or because the have contemplated suicide.

It's not through demanding they PRAY and have FAITH; you have to show others this through your actions and through your behavior. Healing comes with time and work - PERIOD. It comes from God directly through many forms: reading his scriptures, attending church, medicinally, and through people. I have never denied that and would be foolish to do so.

My personal convictions are solely mine, just as the reference I made to my own battle above. You want to believe there is "no proof in the pudding" but yet you claim you have faith and belief in God's healing power. You can attempt to discredit my words and quote scriptures at me all day long but that does not change how I feel about what I have written here the last few days. The same goes from my passages; it shouldn't matter what I say or feel if you are confident in your convictions.

As far as answering my questions - there is no need. Your tone provides me with enough details to understand where you are coming from. I am no better than you or the next person; we are all equal.

Again, thank you for taking the time to discuss further this very interesting topic. It is always a pleasure learning about people and new things. God Bless.

 

[Bunnytus]

I actually changed my mind. I think I can I restate my point differently so you see what I am saying.

What I have been trying to point out is this:
For a christian is it within our understanding that God loves us and he is the ultimate healer and provider. We know we can look to him and seek refuge in his love. We also know that HE is ALL we need to get through crisis and rough patches.

For a non-christian these things are not (always) within their understanding. It is our job to bring it to them and show them because that is what God wants and needs us to do. BUT I truly feel if one's mind is completely bogged down they need to work through those things before they are able to focus on what christians are offering and what God needs to share with them. When one is able to clearly focus he or she is able to hear and think clearly.

Through psychology one can work through the issues that are holding them back or causing emotions to rise and fall. Psychology encompasses many areas, all of which have been brought forth to help individuals work through specific problems.

I hope this was more helpful in revealing my reasoning than the last couple of posts.


****
I forgot to address two statements you also made:
1) I do not see where I insulted the ablesd12. I will run through and search for this. You however have done a bang up job on the insults yourself. Let's not start pointing fingers...
2) "perhaps this is a wrong statement you could ever make here. specially in Talk Jesus" - Why???
Am I not allowed to speak openly? The word "you" was in a general sense; besides that it was a purely opiniated statement. It was not meant to be offensive or evil.

 

[ablesd12]

The bible says

That if we have a weak brother those of us who are spiritual should restore such a one in the spirit of meekness considering our own selves. God said without faith its impossible to please Him So excersise faith lay hands and pray that depression right out of him!!!!! THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE!!!!