Pre-trib vs Post-trib rapture: revisted

[B-A-C]

Hmmm Sorry. I"m confused by your speaking here...Are you talking about the rapture, or about the second coming? These are two separate events...Which one please?

No one said anything about the second coming in this thread.

 

[Hekuran]

Hi @B-A-C just to make sure we're not talking at cross purposes in this thread, could you describe what you mean when you talk about the rapture event?

I say this because when I was a kid, someone showed me the 'thief in the night' movie, in which suddenly millions of people disappear. Pilotless aeroplanes falling out of the sky etc. I think the 'Left Behind' series has a similar outlook, though I've not read the books or seen the films. That's the sort of scenario that springs to mind when I hear the word 'rapture'. Do you mean something very different?

 

[B-A-C]

I say this because when I was a kid, someone showed me the 'thief in the night' movie, in which suddenly millions of people disappear. Pilotless aeroplanes falling out of the sky etc. I think the 'Left Behind' series has a similar outlook, though I've not read the books or seen the films. That's the sort of scenario that springs to mind when I hear the word 'rapture'. Do you mean something very different?

Kind of... (how is that for vague). Left Behind was pre-trib, although the series was about Christians who got saved after the rapture. I've read the book sand seen at least one of the movies.
I definitely don't agree with all of it, but perhaps some of it. But like '@Dave M' I do tend to believe that when the Bible says people ascend upwards, they really do. Elijah in a chariot of fire,
Jesus in Acts 1:9-11; and yes.. even Christians in 1Thess 4:16-17; whether they go directly to heaven is debatable, the fact that some will be taken and other's not... not so much.

Luke 17:24; For just like the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day.

Luke 17:30; It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.
Luke 17:31; On that day, the one who will be on the housetop, with his goods in the house, must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one in the field must not turn back.
Luke 17:32; Remember Lot’s wife.
Luke 17:33; Whoever strives to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will keep it.
Luke 17:34; I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left.
Luke 17:35; There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left.
Luke 17:36; Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left.”]

Matt 24:37; For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
Matt 24:38; For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
Matt 24:39; and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Matt 24:40; At that time there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.
Matt 24:41; Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
Matt 24:42; “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.

1Cor 15:42; So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
1Cor 15:43; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

1Cor 15:51; Behold, I am telling you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
1Cor 15:52; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

"In a moment".. "the twinkling of a eye".. "at the last trumpet". This tells me this isn't speaking of an individual by individual experience, but a global experience for all believers at the exact same instant in time.

1Thes 4:14; For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.
1Thes 4:15; For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

John 5:28; Do not be amazed at this; for a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come out: those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the bad deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

"a 'TIME' is coming". A single moment in time, that hasn't happened yet, when the dead in Christ, those in the tombs (graves) , will be raised.

The resurrection hasn't happened yet for anyone (except Jesus).

2 Tim 2:18; men who have gone astray from the truth, claiming that the resurrection has already taken place; and they are jeopardizing the faith of some.

Anyone who claims it has, has "gone astray from the truth".

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

No one said anything about the second coming in this thread.

No its true..nobody said 'second coming' in this thread...Its just that verses that refer to the second coming are being used to prove a rapture theory.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 King James Version (KJV)
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Luke 17:34-37; Revelation 3:10 ; 1 Corinthians 15:52 and several other scriptures speak of a catching up. There is no mention of a gathering from the four corners of the Earth. And yes. The Bible DOES speak of a catching up to meet Him in the air. If you choose not to believe that, well, you don't have to go.

The verses that speak of a gathering from four corners.....Looked at in context describe a totally different event. Jesus returns! His feet touch the ground, and He has HIs bride with Him. His Bride? Those who were caught up to meet Him in the air.

 

[B-A-C]

From my perspective, any verse with the phrase "gather up, or "caught up" is speaking about the rapture. The 2nd coming may happen immediately after this (within seconds even).
But they are separate events.

 

[Hekuran]

Ok. That's clearer. Thanks.

Here's what I think the relevant scriptures are saying. Matthew 24:30 is a warning of the judgement - destruction- of Jerusalem. An invading army is to sweep through the city with the speed and devastation of the flood in Noah's time. Run to the hills.

In 1 Corinthians 15:52 'raised' means raised from the dead, not lifted to the sky.

Which leaves 1 Thessalonians 4, which is not talking about a permanent removal from the earth.

As Jesus returns as a triumphant king, we his subjects rise to the clouds to greet him and join the victory parade to earth. Or if you prefer the marriage imagery, the church rises to meet Jesus as a wedding party goes out to welcome the bridegroom.

 

[B-A-C]

As Jesus returns as a triumphant king, we his subjects rise to the clouds to greet him and join the victory parade to earth. Or if you prefer the marriage imagery, the church rises to meet Jesus as a wedding party goes out to welcome the bridegroom.

So for most of this we agree, the only big difference being if the events in Matt 24 are about 70ad Jerusalem, or in the future, entire world.

 

[Hekuran]

So for most of this we agree, the only big difference being if the events in Matt 24 are about 70ad Jerusalem, or in the future, entire world.

Maybe we leave the question of the timing of the events in Matthew 24 for another time and another thread. Do you agree with me that the verses about two men working in a field, one taken and one left are a warning of judgement and not about a glorious gathering as Jesus returns?

 

[Brad Huber]

Ok. That's clearer. Thanks.

Here's what I think the relevant scriptures are saying. Matthew 24:30 is a warning of the judgement - destruction- of Jerusalem. An invading army is to sweep through the city with the speed and devastation of the flood in Noah's time. Run to the hills.

Which could happen as Gog and Magog (often considered russian ppl) since Russia has basically made Syria its vassal state, allowing it its own govt as long as it doesnt irritate russia too badly, and allows massive russian bases there. And syria is more true north than russia. Thats part of all this end of days stuff which includes rapture all too often in the discussions.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Which could happen as Gog and Magog (often considered russian ppl) since Russia has basically made Syria its vassal state, allowing it its own govt as long as it doesnt irritate russia too badly, and allows massive russian bases there. And syria is more true north than russia. Thats part of all this end of days stuff which includes rapture all too often in the discussions.

Just as a point of curiosity, in the Travels of Marco Polo, Gog and Magog are spoken of...Russia is Magog and Gog? China.

 

[Brad Huber]

Just as a point of curiosity, in the Travels of Marco Polo, Gog and Magog are spoken of...Russia is Magog and Gog? China.

Interesting, but I probably woudnt consider Mr. Polo to an expert on the matter, probably just repeating what he heard from others, not definitive.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Interesting, but I probably woudnt consider Mr. Polo to an expert on the matter, probably just repeating what he heard from others, not definitive.

LOL Actually Mr Polo was traveling through the area several times when the areas were called that. As I said though. It's only a point of curiosity. Nothing more. I find it interesting how my mind will remember things I learned years ago but I don't remember what I had for breakfast today. I have to ask my wife if I ate.