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Pre-trib vs Post-trib rapture: revisted

Loyal
An old subject, a debate centuries old. Will it get resolved here in this thread? I personally believe it could be.
For most of my life, I've been taught Christians will be raptured before the tribulation. But the more I read the Bible, the more it seems this isn't the case.
There are actually quite a few verses that say Christians will be here for the tribulation, and so far I can't find any that say we won't be.

The elect - A confusing word. Who are the elect? Some say they are the 144,00 Jews. Others say they are are all the believers. What does this have to do with the rapture?
Because the Bible says the elect are the ones who get raptured.

Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

OK, so good so far. But lets put those two verses in context. First Matthew 24.

Matt 24:15; "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
Matt 24:16; then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
Matt 24:17; "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
Matt 24:18; "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
Matt 24:19; "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
Matt 24:20; "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
Matt 24:21; "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Matt 24:22; "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Matt 24:23; "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him.
Matt 24:24; "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
Matt 24:25; "Behold, I have told you in advance.
Matt 24:26; "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.
Matt 24:27; "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Matt 24:28; "Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.


Verse 21 says this will be the greatest tribulation ever in the history of mankind. Not just a bad day.
Verse 22 says the days will be cut short during this time, for the sake of "the elect". Whoa..... why are the elect still here during this time? Why aren't they already raptured?
Verse 24 says the beast and false prophet will try to deceive some of "the elect". How can they deceive the elect, if the elect have already been raptured?
Verse 29 gives us a time-frame here.... "after the tribulation of those days"
In Verse 31 that's when the elect are finally raptured.

Mark is similar.

Mark 13:14; "But when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
Mark 13:15; "The one who is on the housetop must not go down, or go in to get anything out of his house;
Mark 13:16; and the one who is in the field must not turn back to get his coat.
Mark 13:17; "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
Mark 13:18; "But pray that it may not happen in the winter.
Mark 13:19; "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
Mark 13:20; "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
Mark 13:21; "And then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ'; or, 'Behold, He is there'; do not believe him;
Mark 13:22; for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
Mark 13:23; "But take heed; behold, I have told you everything in advance.
Mark 13:24; "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25; AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26; "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.


Verse 19 says this will be the greatest tribulation of all time.
Verse 20 says but for the sake of who? The elect, the days will be cut short during this time.
Verse 22 says the false Christs and false prophets will try to deceive who? The elect.
Verse 24 gives us a time-frame again. "after that tribulation"
Finally in verse 27 The Son of Man (Jesus) gather's up the elect.

So if the elect are just the 144,000 Jews, then only the 144,000 will be raptured. If the elect is all the believers in the church, then the entire church will be raptured at this time.

...next those in white robes.
 
Loyal
Those in the white robes.

Rev 7:9; After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
Rev 7:10; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."
Rev 7:11; And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
Rev 7:12; saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen."
Rev 7:13; Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14; I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15; "For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

There is a very large group of people wearing white robes. Again we see this isn't just Jews, verse 9 says from every nation, all tribes, and peoples and tongues.
The word "peoples" here is especially of interest. It denote race. People of all races.

laos
lah-os'
Apparently a primary word; a people (in general; thus differing from G1218, which denotes one’s own populace): - people.

This word specifically doesn't denote one's own populace (race) but all races. So it won't be only Jews here. Verse 14 says these "are the ones who came out of the great tribulation".
How could these people come out of the great tribulation, if the church was already raptured before the tribulation? Some believe these are people who get saved after the rapture
takes place. If that's true, and the church is already raptured, then these people will never be raptured. Yet somehow, they are standing before the throne of God in white robes.
 
Loyal
Those who refuse to take the mark of the beast.

Rev 20:4; Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

I have to wonder, why would anyone refuse the mark of the beast? I can't buy or sell anything unless I have it during this time. I likely can't buy a house, a car, or even food.
So then why would people refuse the mark. Yet in the verse above people refuse the take the mark. Christians who know the Bible have plenty of reason not to take the mark.

Rev 14:9; Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10; he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11; "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

So it seems there will be people around during the reign of the beast, who refuse to take the mark. To my way of thinking, this can only be believers, people who know and believe the Bible.
If this is the case, why aren't these believers already raptured before the mark is even available? Why are they still on the Earth and able to receive the mark?

During at least one of the major plagues of the tribulation, there will people around with the seal of God on their foreheads.

Rev 9:4; They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
Rev 9:5; And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man.

This seal will prevent them from being hurt (at least by this particular plague), but the question remains... why are these people still on the Earth during the tribulation?
Why didn't they get raptured before it begins?

I have given quite a bit of scripture here, but I see nowhere in any of it, that the rapture happens before the tribulation.
 
Loyal
A thought comes to mind... what about all those Christians who have always been taught they won't be around for the mark of the beast and the great tribulation?
When they suddenly realize they are already in it.... the tribulation is already happening all around them, and they realize.. I wasn't taken, I wasn't raptured.
Here I am, I've tried to live right, I've always believed in Jesus, and now I'm left behind.

Will these people give up hope? What if the rapture hasn't happened yet, and they weren't left behind.

"Well everyone in my church believes in pre-trib!"
"My pastor has always told us, it will be pre-trib".
"I've always been taught it will be pre-trib".

Maybe you've been taught wrong, maybe your pastor is wrong. Go by the Bible.
 
Loyal
A few things come to mind when I read this, first I agree with it.

One thing is my pastor who I love and respect and just know he is filled with the Holly spirit preaches a pre trib rapture,. those that do it in a dogmatic way, I believe are most likely sincere, but are doing a great dis-service to the church, it is up to each individual to study the bible on there own and come to there own conclusion.

I can tell when someone has been taught by man about the pre trib, because they make up a lot stuff that must fit into the theory of the pre trib.........like those standing before the throne that came out of the tribulation are the "tribulation saints" they are not part of the church, because the church is off celebrating having a marriage supper,,,,, I have heard this one for years now, and used to believe it. But the way I see it now is If you believe in Jesus for your salvation,, you are part of the church and a saint in the church, why would Jesus let you miss the marriage supper, sometimes I almost feel the pre trib people are snobbish, they want to miss the opportunity to suffer for Christ, and think they are above that, or to think the saints in tribulation are not part of the church I don't get it . The bible does say we will be spared from God's Wrath, and the pre trib people love to bring that up, well God is very capable of sparing us from his wrath while we go through the tribulation.

Now there is one verse in the whole bible that I can find as a promise from God that the Church of Philadelphia will be spared from the tribulation, but it does not say how. It could simply mean we are going to be dead before it starts, or maybe the Christians that fall under the description of the Church of Philadelphia will be raptured, or perhaps be protected as Noha who went through the tribulation "flood"

But to preach in a dogmatic way of the pre trib is not right IMO


Jesus does not send out his angles to gather his elect from the 4 winds until her returns
One taken one left doe not happen until Jesus Returns
Coming in the clouds does not happen until Jesus Returns
 
Loyal
Thought experiment. Read the New Testament passages about Jesus return assuming that there is no rapture at all (by 'rapture' i mean the idea that some will be carried away to heaven).

Which passages become clearer, and where do problems arise when reading the Bible with this assumption?
 
Loyal
(by 'rapture' i mean the idea that some will be carried away to heaven).

no one says that you will be carried away to heaven in this thread, not sure wear that came from.

The bible says at his second coming he will call us up in the clouds, then we will be changed, and the 1000 rule starts on the earth not heaven
 
Loyal
no one says that you will be carried away to heaven in this thread, not sure wear that came from.

The bible says at his second coming he will call us up in the clouds, then we will be changed, and the 1000 rule starts on the earth not heaven
Ok, not in this thread, no. But that's what most people seem to mean when talking about the rapture. It's good to clarify. What do you mean when you say rapture - What event does it refer to?
 
Loyal
Thought experiment. Read the New Testament passages about Jesus return assuming that there is no rapture at all (by 'rapture' i mean the idea that some will be carried away to heaven).
I also agree with this. At least the heaven part. The word rapture isn't in the Bible, but it simply means gather up. (Gather up to where?)
But the Bible does say the elect will be gathered up.

Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

1Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

It seems they go to meet Jesus "in the air", or "in the clouds", or "from one end of the sky to the other", but you are correct, it doesn't say heaven.
 
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Loyal
I also agree with this. At least the heaven part. The word rapture isn't in the Bible, but it simply means gather up. (Gather up to where?)
But the Bible does say the elect will be gathered up.

Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

1Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

It seems they go to meet Jesus "in the air", or "in the clouds", or "from one end of the sky to the other", but you are correct, it doesn't say heaven.

seems we would be coming back down with Jesus in out glorified bodied to the earth with him first to watch him defeat the armies that surrond the holly city, then to start his rule.
 
Loyal
What do you mean when you say rapture - What event does it refer to?
do you not beleive in the calling up in the clouds to meet the lord in the air other wise known as the Rapture ?? it plain in scripture what most people debate is the timing of the rapture, and yes you are correct a lot people say we go to heaven at this time I dont agree with that, because it says we meet him in the clouds and are changed in a twinkle of eye.

the one in the bible that says we will be called up in the clouds to meed the Lord and be with him forever

1Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
 
Loyal
Noah and his family were saved from the flood, yes. But they still had to go through it.

exactly and when we look at this example we see something that is also in the book of revelation, NO ONE REPENTS, we know Noah and his family were kept from the wrath and protected but went through the flood, and It seems no one repents during the flood, at least it does not mention it. The book of revelation clearly says a couple of times that no one repents, and it also mentions more then one time there are saints in the tribulation, so from what I gather that means they must of come into the tribulation as a saint. I dont see anyone getting BA in the tribulation
 
Loyal
do you not beleive in the calling up in the clouds to meet the lord in the air other wise known as the Rapture ?? it plain in scripture what most people debate is the timing of the rapture, and yes you are correct a lot people say we go to heaven at this time I dont agree with that, because it says we meet him in the clouds and are changed in a twinkle of eye.

the one in the bible that says we will be called up in the clouds to meed the Lord and be with him forever

1Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
The sequence of events for meeting Jesus in the air, 1 Thess 4 is pretty clear. As Jesus returns, the dead rise from their graves, in the blink of an eye we are transformed to glorified bodies and we meet Jesus in the air.

Is the greeting Jesus in the sky language intended to be taken literally, or is it divine hyperbole -- trying to describe the indescribable? I don't know for sure.

Consistently in the New Testament the focus of hope and expectation is on Jesus return in power and in glory. Rapture seems to play large in the minds of many Christians today, but it's at best a minor consideration for the writers of the New Testament and their readers.
 
Loyal
Rapture seems to play large in the minds of many Christians today, but it's at best a minor consideration for the writers of the New Testament and their readers.
I agree the the people who are dogmatic about a pre trib rapture could be giving false hope, I see it taking place at the end of tribulation, but am not dogmatic on it

I do take it literal when the bible says to be called up in the clouds
 
Loyal
Consistently in the New Testament the focus of hope and expectation is on Jesus return in power and in glory. Rapture seems to play large in the minds of many Christians today, but it's at best a minor consideration for the writers of the New Testament and their readers.
Very interesting. For most the resurrection is tied to the rapture. If there is no rapture, there is no resurrection, if there is no resurrection our faith is in vain, and all of Christianity is a lie.

1 Cor 15:14-19;

The word "resurrection" is in the New testament 41 times, hardly a minor consideration.
 
Loyal
Is the greeting Jesus in the sky language intended to be taken literally, or is it divine hyperbole -- trying to describe the indescribable? I don't know for sure.
Spiritual, metaphysical, spiritual? I think unlikely, but even if it is, it will be a profound change, for one thing people will be unable to die. Other religions will be no more.
 
Loyal
It's the language about greeting Jesus in the clouds that I think might be figurative. NOT the resurrection.

My hope in the physical resurrection and the transformation of our bodies is absolutely solid and certain. And to my mind it's crystal clear in the Bible.
 
Active
An old subject, a debate centuries old. Will it get resolved here in this thread? I personally believe it could be.
For most of my life, I've been taught Christians will be raptured before the tribulation. But the more I read the Bible, the more it seems this isn't the case.
There are actually quite a few verses that say Christians will be here for the tribulation, and so far I can't find any that say we won't be.

The elect - A confusing word. Who are the elect? Some say they are the 144,00 Jews. Others say they are are all the believers. What does this have to do with the rapture?
Because the Bible says the elect are the ones who get raptured.

Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

OK, so good so far. But lets put those two verses in context. First Matthew 24.

Matt 24:15; "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
Matt 24:16; then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
Matt 24:17; "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
Matt 24:18; "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
Matt 24:19; "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
Matt 24:20; "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
Matt 24:21; "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Matt 24:22; "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Matt 24:23; "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him.
Matt 24:24; "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
Matt 24:25; "Behold, I have told you in advance.
Matt 24:26; "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.
Matt 24:27; "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Matt 24:28; "Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.


Verse 21 says this will be the greatest tribulation ever in the history of mankind. Not just a bad day.
Verse 22 says the days will be cut short during this time, for the sake of "the elect". Whoa..... why are the elect still here during this time? Why aren't they already raptured?
Verse 24 says the beast and false prophet will try to deceive some of "the elect". How can they deceive the elect, if the elect have already been raptured?
Verse 29 gives us a time-frame here.... "after the tribulation of those days"
In Verse 31 that's when the elect are finally raptured.

Mark is similar.

Mark 13:14; "But when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
Mark 13:15; "The one who is on the housetop must not go down, or go in to get anything out of his house;
Mark 13:16; and the one who is in the field must not turn back to get his coat.
Mark 13:17; "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
Mark 13:18; "But pray that it may not happen in the winter.
Mark 13:19; "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
Mark 13:20; "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
Mark 13:21; "And then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ'; or, 'Behold, He is there'; do not believe him;
Mark 13:22; for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
Mark 13:23; "But take heed; behold, I have told you everything in advance.
Mark 13:24; "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25; AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26; "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.


Verse 19 says this will be the greatest tribulation of all time.
Verse 20 says but for the sake of who? The elect, the days will be cut short during this time.
Verse 22 says the false Christs and false prophets will try to deceive who? The elect.
Verse 24 gives us a time-frame again. "after that tribulation"
Finally in verse 27 The Son of Man (Jesus) gather's up the elect.

So if the elect are just the 144,000 Jews, then only the 144,000 will be raptured. If the elect is all the believers in the church, then the entire church will be raptured at this time.

...next those in white robes.
Hmmm Sorry. I"m confused by your speaking here...Are you talking about the rapture, or about the second coming? These are two separate events...Which one please?
 

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