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Persuasive Arguments

Discussion in 'Bible Chat' started by Sue J Love, Nov 24, 2017.

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  1. No worries. I did say in that post that Vicki is saved. But not because she's mentally challenged: she's told me her testimony of how she accepted Christ after a church service a few years back. Almost every time I take her to the mall, she asks me when Jesus is coming back. :)

    I think you and I agree that babies, including aborted babies, and the mentally challenged without moral awareness go to Heaven if/when they die.

    Thanks for answering. I agree, with the operative word being ''accomodate.'' After we're saved, if we've truly repented, we ought not carry on in a lifestyle of sin. We ought not sin presumptuously or willfully.

    Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?


    This passage is written in present tense though. Paul is describing his own struggle against sin and the ongoing battle that he had between the old man (carnal, fleshly nature) and the new man (spiritual, godly nature).

    Ro 7:14 ¶ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
    Ro 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
    Ro 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
    Ro 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    Ro 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
    Ro 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
    Ro 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    Ro 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
    Ro 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
    Ro 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
    Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
    Ro 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    He also speaks of putting off the old man and putting on the new man and instructs Christians to do just that in Ephesians 4:22-32 and Colossians 3:8-17.


    In the NT, sinners can't please God if they're walking in the flesh (Romans 8:8) or friends with the world (Jas 4:4). And they certainly can't if they don't even believe to begin with (John 3:18). In the OT sometimes sinners did please God. I'm thinking of Enoch, because Heb 11:5 specifies that he pleased God, and also David, whom God called "a man after mine own heart" in Acts 13:22; Noah, because he was perfect in his generations and found grace in the eyes of the Lord (Gen 6:7-9) and also Job and Daniel, who, along with Noah, the Lord called righteous in Eze 14:14, 20.

    Enoch, Noah and Job lived before the Mosaic law was enacted; David and Daniel after it was enacted. Scripture shows they all lived well before God although the Bible doesn't call any of them was sinless.

    Neither Enoch, nor Noah, Job, David or Daniel died for my sins. They couldn't: they all had human parents. Only Christ was sinless, and only He could die for my sins because He wasn't born of a human male seed, but of the Holy Spirit.


    Elijah's doubt and his pity-party under the juniper tree are well-documented in 1 Kings 19.

    Thanks for a good discussion. Have a blessed Lord's Day tomorrow.
     

  2. Same God, but different testament.
    Not everything in the OT applies to the NT.

    They were all destroyed.
    My bible makes no mention of the children's ages.
    You are adding to scripture.

    If they were younger than the age of reason, there was no sin held against them.

    It is written..."For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2 Cor 5:10)
    "That HE hath done".

    Now you will need to supply the verse to back that up.



    Perhaps someone "hopes" on their behalf, but why would any unbeliever "hope" for anything pertaining to the Lord?

    You're mixing your metaphors.
    You are combining "light" with "hope'.
     

  3. Jesus was talking about the children who were within reach of His arms.
    You know, the ones you say are unworthy of heaven.

    What is my vision relevant to what?
    Babies can't commit sin so have nothing to worry about in regard to the final judgement.
     
  4. We agree.

    Fact is, those reborn of God's seed cannot bring forth evil fruit. (1 John 3:9)
    Grape vines can't bring forth figs.
    God (root, vine, branch) cannot bring forth murder, adultery, theft, etc.

    No, some of it is written in "present-historical" or, "present-narrative" tense.
    The flesh has been crucified, so isn't even a facet of Paul's reborn life. (Rom 6:3-6)
    The next verse supplies the result of his (our) crucifixion with Christ..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."
    The law of sin has been eclipsed by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:2)
     
  5. Babies aren't aware of sin, children do start to learn what is right from wrong but its when they reach adulthood that they become responsible, which is usually technically at the time of puberty, or menses for girls. Boys had their bar mitsvah around 12-13. That was when they could read scripture/ Torah in the synagogue.

    Why are children innocent and not adults. Well, its the nature of children to be innocent and trusting. That is why Jesus does not forbid them to enter the Kingdom. This is not to say they cannot act sinfully by being selfish etc but they aren't really aware or responsible for it.

    When Jesus was born King Herod killed all males under 2 in Bethlehem and that was called slaughter of the innocents. It wasn't because they sinned or anything. But these children would not be forbidden to enter heaven.
     
  6. If there is sin in us, we need to get it out by the roots, you'd be surprised what is hiding in people's hearts they hadn't cast it out or repented of. Repent means turn around, or change your heart.

    If you are dead to sin, you can't sin. It wouldn't cross your mind to sin, you wouldn't want to sin. And if you did you'd know it was wrong. That's the amazing thing about God's grace it changes you.

    Am surprised that many christians continue to think of themselves as just sinners saved by grace when they ought to be identifying with the saints.
     
  7. Actually, if you read 2 Timothy 2nd chapter at the link below, it testifies that even former believers are still saved, but they are still called to go before that throne of grace for help in discerning the lies that overthrew their faith to depart from even that iniquity of unbelief. There are other iniquities that saved believers need His help in discerning so as to lean on Him for help to depart from those iniquities as all of us have the calling to depart from iniquity continuously to be received by Him as a vessel unto honor in His House.

    Bible Gateway passage: 2 Timothy 2 - King James Version

    So hell is not the consequence for being led astray, but being left behind at the pre trib rapture to be received later on as vessels unto dishonor in His House is the consequence.

    1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

    I actually see the denying part as denying myself as being able to follow Him religiously, and picking up my cross daily is to say that it is not I who live but Christ in me, in how I am following Him & His words as we can only follow Him by faith & by the grace of God too. Since we could not save ourselves, then we are to surrender by resting in Him to help us lay aside every weight & sin in running that race as my confidence is in Him to finish it to His glory. The crowns I may receive are His crowning achievements in me which is to His glory and not mine. This is why little children are free to come to the Lord, because all the can do is take Him at His word by trusting Him for all things, even for following Him.

    That also includes making and keeping a commitment or a promise to follow Christ religiously as that is not living by faith in Jesus Christ, nor can it ever be. It was a double-minded state that the Lord had delivered me from so that I can rest in Him for all things in following Him. It is by faith in Him in seeing how I am following Him by the grace of God is how I am getting to know Him and the power of His resurrection.

    If we look to ourselves, then we run in vain that race. When we got saved, we surrendered and called on the Lord Jesus Christ to save us because we can't do it. That same surrender is required for us to trust Him as our Good Shepherd for the help as well as the power we need for following Him. He did not take off and say.... good luck... you will need it. He said that all power has been given unto Him and that He is with us always.

    Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

    We have to be saved now since we had been saved at the calling of the gospel if we are to testify of Jesus Christ as the Good News to mankind as our Saviour. If we are in the process of being saved, then we cannot say that we are saved when you make it as if it is on us to be continuously saved by following Him by faith for that would be denying that you are saved by faith.

    When a brother or sister goes astray, and even if they stop believing in Him, that does not mean they were never saved when ( if you read 2 Timothy 2nd chapter at that link above, ) He still abides ( 2 Timothy 2:13 for a shortcut ) and so it is christian love that we seek their good in the Lord to correct them and to ask them to pray to Jesus for help in seeing the lies that turned them away so they can repent as well as depart from whatever iniquity that has gripped them.

    When people are doing that, they are not making disciples of new believers in how they are to live that reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ as their Good Shepherd and not just as their Saviour.

    The reason they do not follow through is because no one can follow Him by keeping a promise. Any sin committed after that "decision" which you are taking to be as a promise, is breaking that decision as well as that promise. This was why I was disheartened and felt like a fraud for doing the best I can in keeping my commitment to make Jesus Lord of my life because no matter how much the spirit is willing, the flesh was weak; and that decision was made long after I had been saved.

    We can choose this day whom we will serve; the Lord Jesus Christ or something else in His name, BUT there is no power in that decision when I trust Jesus Christ to help me to do it; to serve Him by testifying of the Son in seeking His glory and nothing else in His name for that is the only way I can honor & glorify the Father and that is by honoring & glorifying the Son which I am led by the Spirit to do because the Holy Spirit has been sent to do the very same thing through us.

    John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

    John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

    John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.14 He shall glorify me:

    1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

    1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.



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  8. Sorry I opened up this can of worms but sometimes we need to consider things that are not comfortable for us to consider. I am not condemning anyone. That is already done according to the scripture, if we can understand them. I understand in a measure. Does anyone understand better? That is God's call.

    I cannot change what I believe to make someone else comfortable. There is no free gift for anyone. Someone had to open the Way and someone has to choose to walk into that open Way. Whether we like it or not, as I believe it, those unable to choose for themselves those responsible for them make the choice for them.

    Because we have decided that something is good does not make it so any more than because we have decided that something is bad makes it so.

    "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" Isaiah 5:20

    Only God, the only One who is good, can judge exactly what is and what is not good.

    "I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
    So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." I Cor 3:6-7

    I will leave this for now.
     
  9. Trusting the Lord is something we CAN do and surrendering everything to Him.
    He takes our burdens, we are not meant to add to them. If we do our bit i,e simply trust in Him, He will do the rest.

    For those of us who werent born or raised in a christian family yes to a certain extent our parents made a choice for us and when we are children they are responsible for us. But God can reach out to children despite their parents ill choices.

    For those that were raised in christian families you have been blessed, dont throw away that precious heritage. Yes sone parents can go overboard religious on their children, and thats not always a good thing, but in many ways its better than being left in the dark which is the fate of many neglected and abandoned children, and they have a more difficult road to travel.
     
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  10. Amen.

    I was brought up in a religion that made me aware of God, but was in error.
    They taught freedom, but were still in bondage to sin.
    God knows how to get the "message" to those who earnestly seek Him...Thanks be to God!
     

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